What are the minimum requirements (DPS) to complete any top-tier content, such as godslayer?

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  • isadoraisacat
    isadoraisacat
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    thorwyn wrote: »

    The buffs are the only reason why this item exists. They are the compensation for the "drawback" that you can not barswap anymore. A drawback that is actually the reason to play it for some players. Empower alone is not enough to justify the item in my opinion.

    It does for me as a heavy attack player.
    I use it for empower the other buffs are just added bonus. I lived with out those prior can live without now.
  • Tradewind
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    thorwyn wrote: »
    Pretty ironic statement coming from a person who is trying to defend an item that permanently gives you almost every existing buff, making proper group composition and set coordination redundant.

    I don't even need Oakensoul..
    As a player who uses an HA build, I, like many others, are the target of various forms of harassmen and only because HA build. After Zenimax nerfs the build, the lives of HA users will become even more difficult. With or without Oakensoul!
    Edited by Tradewind on April 23, 2023 5:32PM
  • isadoraisacat
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    Tradewind wrote: »

    I don't even need Oakensoul..
    As a player who uses an HA build, I, like many others, are the target of various forms of harassmen and only because HA build. After Zenimax nerfs the build, the lives of HA users will become even more difficult. With or without Oakensoul!

    Right it’s the play style people don’t like.
    I wonder if the new mythic will receive the same hate only time will tell.
  • Tradewind
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    Right it’s the play style people don’t like.
    I wonder if the new mythic will receive the same hate only time will tell.

    All because some players don't like others who play differently due to personal preference or necessity. For these players, it would be great if Zenimax were to block access to the most challenging content for these individuals.
    Fortunately, it is a very exclusive group of players who simply do not appreciate those who are different, but unfortunately, it seems they have the full support of those who should not condone such behavior.
    Edited by Tradewind on April 23, 2023 6:04PM
  • Amottica
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    Right well the thing with me is I can weave and can bar swap I can maintain dots. The issue is a hand issue where I can’t do it for long with out pain I need to literally stop for a minute and it clearly can’t be good dps.

    I don’t like weaving I don’t think it fits the elder scrolls world. But I can do it as a skill I just can’t do it for long with my issues. People need to understand many using this are in the same boat.

    Weaving is not required to be able to clear any content in ESO. Some people are physically challenged to weave through a boss fight as you have noted and some find it challenging to weave properly due to lag such as those in Australia. I know people who often avoid weaving due to lag and have cleared the most challenging content in ESO without issue.

    So there is no need to completely rework and redesign the combat system in ESO as many can handle the current design just fine. Oh, and yes, it would require a redesign of the combat system as there are fundamental aspects that make weaving basic attacks possible.
  • MudcrabAttack
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    Sunspire is kind of old now, the requirements aren’t as bad as other trials. If the group has good synergy and tanks move trash mobs into perfect circles for quick killing, and everyone sprints where they need to go, you can probably get Godslayer with these times:

    <6 minute Lokk
    <5 min Yoln
    <9min Navi

    My group isn’t like a score pushing group, we got it in 27 minutes. Avg trial dummy parses are around 100-120k. We were light attack weaving for bosses, mostly heavy attacking trash mobs between

    It took my group 8 minutes for Navi, no portals were skipped. Not sure of the average dps since I was in the portal. I was using a bow build, but FYI I know a group sending oakensoul heavy attackers down the portals and they don’t have problems

    4 minute Yoln clear with 78k average with the healer dpsing as the 9th, could probably get by with 62k average, it’s mostly single target dps with a couple atros to take down

    5 minute Lokke clear with 62k average, so maybe 60k dps is needed for that fight. If the boss dps is low, theres a lot of aoe dps that you have to deal when the dragon flies, which brings the average dps up (it’s actually a bad thing since the odds of someone dying go up when surrounded by lots of spawning atros and ground AOEs).

    The actual dps numbers from one clear to the next vary, and depends on whether the group is skipping mechs or not. A really fast clear of lokke has very few atronachs to kill, so overall dps may look small since you wait on the dragon so much and don’t have to kill much stuff on the ground. You can skip killing most atronachs on the third flight phase, just ignore the atros standing further back and your dps may look worse, but it’s so much easier to clear
  • Ragnarok0130
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    TheForFeeF wrote: »
    So, after reading the comments, it seems like your actual issue is that ZoS are "nerfing" storm masters and empower in the next update, thus "nerfing" Oakensoul HA builds? Not actually about the DPS "gatekeeping" for vSS HM + No Death + Speedrun?

    Exactly, neither of his threads seem to be debated in good faith. Instead we get strawmen to argue in circles about and moving goal posts instead of a legitimate discussion of whichever topic has actually raised his ire which really seems to be the very minimal nerfs to HA builds that the devs themselves say are over performing.

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  • Ragnarok0130
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    The nerf is only 10 % now but I bet my life it will drop lower when more elite players still complain about it. And it will be rendered useless. This is also the second time oakensoul has been nerfed and changes were made to make the build less effective.

    Welcome to end game content where builds, skills, and sets are constantly adjusted via buffs and nerfs. There are reasons most end game players have toons in several classes and farm gear because the META always changes and ZoS loves to continually upend the apple cart.

    Why would you think ZoS who historically loves balancing with sledgehammers instead of scalpels would leave HA or Oaken builds alone? In this instance you are lucky that ZoS did in fact balance your build with a scalpel for once instead of nerfing it into the ground as they usually do.
  • Ragnarok0130
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    Experienced players could copy that build.
    You need to be high level CP and be able to entire at least one vet without being kicked out to get a monster helm.

    Low level players aren’t getting these results. So the average first player or casual player is not getting these results. Just as select few.
    It’s like saying because some baseball
    Player hit a home run everyone else can too.

    Have you heard of the golden vendor who sells monster helms and shoulders with a rotating stock weekly? And define “low level” players because I’ve seen veteran players on level 20 alts nuking bosses in dungeons which tells it it’s a skill and role competency issue instead of a gearing issue. You can give people perfected gold raid gear and their DPS will still be bottom tier until they learn their class and learn a rotation.
  • Ragnarok0130
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    Of course but I’d rather loss the buffs as a balance than lose the dps numbers when that’s my real problem with my hand and issues I can’t control. I do love the buffs they are great but at least than maybe people would lay off a bit while the dps won’t take a hit ? I’m no game dev so prob a terrible idea just a suggestion.

    The buffs directly contribute to your DPS numbers depending on which buff it is.
  • squinquargesimus
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    It does for me as a heavy attack player.
    I use it for empower the other buffs are just added bonus. I lived with out those prior can live without now.

    Your suggestion would screw over a multitude of other players, though, well worked just as much on their Oakensoul builds. I don't think it's right to complain about the DPS nerf, then suggest a far more severe nerf that screws other users just so it doesn't hit you.

    Furthermore, I think part of your issue is that you seem to have some misunderstandings about the build. You don't need to do any vet dungeons for it (that doesn't make what happened to you any better, but unfortunately, jerks will always find a way to be jerks). You do need one piece of Slimecraw, but that can easily be obtained from the shoulder vendors, provided you're willing to farm normal dungeon pledges for the keys.

    And I guarantee you, your Oakensorc is already capable of soloing most base game dungeons on normal, including Wayrest 1 and Tempest Island. Because I used to solo both those on builds that did significantly less DPS (like... 15K was my absolute best in full parse mode on the basic 3 mil dummy) than you said you have, back in 2017. If you don't want to run Pugs any more, solo those two until you have all the pieces, then reconstruct what you don't got in Divines while farming for only 25 Transmutes a piece, way less than changing the trait.

    You can also get 50 transmutes for reaching level 1 at the end of a Cyrodiil campaign, and you can reach that by only repairing keep walls in 30 minutes, no PVP required. If both that and Tribute are no goes, and you can't find friends to run RNDs with, you'll just have to bite in the sour apple and run Pugs. I know that can suck hardcore -- I have severe anxiety, I freak out at just random interactions in passing sometimes -- but there's only so many ways to get transmutes and ZoS has already spread them out over solo/casual, group PVE and PVP activities.
    only a red rage shaped diamond-fashion, singing like a mindless dragon.
  • Inaya1
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    I am like a person who has.......Dmd, IR, GH, TTT, GS, DB, PB.....

    I will say shocking things.
    There are no dps requirements. You just have to understand how it works on an ongoing basis. Be able to damage in dynamics, quickly respond to changes in mechanics.

    And most importantly....... PERFECT GROUP PLAY!
    You have to give yourself completely to the overall mechanism and become one, play and try to make things better every time. If something doesn't work, change it! Some things will not be given to you quickly, you need experience. But this is quite achievable, even with an average skill of the game and without pressing the buttons, as if you are playing the piano.
    Well, in the end, the group game itself is fun. See the effect of your joint efforts by skipping mechanics or accelerating damage to huge amounts.

    Dummy is just a tool for choosing a build that suits you and correcting the sustain, but not a tool for measuring the threshold DPS at which you will be taken anywhere. You yourself must understand that damage is only one of the fundamentals of the gameplay, and that there are many other factors besides it, and everything will be different in the content.
  • isadoraisacat
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    Your suggestion would screw over a multitude of other players, though, well worked just as much on their Oakensoul builds. I don't think it's right to complain about the DPS nerf, then suggest a far more severe nerf that screws other users just so it doesn't hit you.

    Furthermore, I think part of your issue is that you seem to have some misunderstandings about the build. You don't need to do any vet dungeons for it (that doesn't make what happened to you any better, but unfortunately, jerks will always find a way to be jerks). You do need one piece of Slimecraw, but that can easily be obtained from the shoulder vendors, provided you're willing to farm normal dungeon pledges for the keys.

    And I guarantee you, your Oakensorc is already capable of soloing most base game dungeons on normal, including Wayrest 1 and Tempest Island. Because I used to solo both those on builds that did significantly less DPS (like... 15K was my absolute best in full parse mode on the basic 3 mil dummy) than you said you have, back in 2017. If you don't want to run Pugs any more, solo those two until you have all the pieces, then reconstruct what you don't got in Divines while farming for only 25 Transmutes a piece, way less than changing the trait.

    You can also get 50 transmutes for reaching level 1 at the end of a Cyrodiil campaign, and you can reach that by only repairing keep walls in 30 minutes, no PVP required. If both that and Tribute are no goes, and you can't find friends to run RNDs with, you'll just have to bite in the sour apple and run Pugs. I know that can suck hardcore -- I have severe anxiety, I freak out at just random interactions in passing sometimes -- but there's only so many ways to get transmutes and ZoS has already spread them out over solo/casual, group PVE and PVP activities.

    It was just a suggestion. As I said I’d rather no changes be made to oakensoul.

    Yeah I don’t want to get involved with PvP it just doesn’t seem like something I’d be interested in even dipping my toes in.

    I wanted the slimcraw mask. Which I obtained.
    I also got the shoulders I know how and where to get them.

    I know about the build I’m In a guild based around the build.

    They should give more transmutes for normal dungeons is what I’m saying. It takes to long to farm when you get only 1. They should give 5 for nornal and maybe 8 for vet or 3 for nornal 5 for vet. 1 is just a very lousy number. And makes progress take to long.
    Edited by isadoraisacat on April 25, 2023 8:04PM
  • isadoraisacat
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    Have you heard of the golden vendor who sells monster helms and shoulders with a rotating stock weekly? And define “low level” players because I’ve seen veteran players on level 20 alts nuking bosses in dungeons which tells it it’s a skill and role competency issue instead of a gearing issue. You can give people perfected gold raid gear and their DPS will still be bottom tier until they learn their class and learn a rotation.

    I’ve heard of it. I’ve also heard of a Rolex watch it does not mean I can afford one.

    Yeah you are comparing an experienced player to a normal player.

    There are sl1 players in the souls games I’m one of them not to be compared to a low level player who just started.

    This is a serious strawman.
    Edited by isadoraisacat on April 25, 2023 8:09PM
  • isadoraisacat
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    The buffs directly contribute to your DPS numbers depending on which buff it is.

    There are tons of heavy attack builds who don’t use oakensoul or it’s buffs. And achieve good results.
  • Ph1p
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    Tradewind wrote: »
    1. What is the minimum DPS (focusing only on DPS) that any player should have to complete top-tier "Trifecta" (Because, no one likes to spend three days on one trial.)?
    2. Where did you get information about the minimum requested DPS for completing top-tier content?
    3. If DPS is not enough and sadly, many players can't have a perfect rotation, it's fair to say: "Sorry dude, but you really need to pay us (top-tier players) for one ride if you wish to achieve that.
    4. Who will win something because others with 90k don't have enought DPS to complete hardest content? 90k in Dummy but only 40k inside content

    Don't forget other requirements that aren't DPS numbers. Also keep in mind that being at the mathematical minimum DPS required to pass damage checks is not enough. You need more as a buffer and to lower the number of dangerous mechanics you need to play. I'd say for top-tier Trifecta runs, you also need:
    • Commitment to regularly run the trial, often twice or more per week for several hours
    • Static teams so you don't need to onboard new people all the time and people don't need to constantly learn new roles
    • Willingness to improve, learn, and invest in better gear/setups where needed
    • Constructive feedback to identify the reasons you initially fail (and you advocated for removing DPS sharing in a separate thread... ;))
    • Basic trial experience - you don't want to jump directly into vDSR HM if DDs can't stack in front of the healers or step out of AOEs

    You kind of assumed all of those were already there with your initial post, but that's a big if!
  • Necrotech_Master
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    Have you heard of the golden vendor who sells monster helms and shoulders with a rotating stock weekly? And define “low level” players because I’ve seen veteran players on level 20 alts nuking bosses in dungeons which tells it it’s a skill and role competency issue instead of a gearing issue. You can give people perfected gold raid gear and their DPS will still be bottom tier until they learn their class and learn a rotation.

    i usually take new toons to imperial city to farm at lvl 10 lol, 9 years of game experience helps with doing that lol

    im also surprised that this argument is being rehashed too, this does feel almost identical to the other thread they finally locked lol

    i still see people looking for HA builds for vet trial runs, and dps checks in some content are very real things (i think what ive seen recommended is you need about 80k dps on the trial dummy to be able to do most if not all content up to including vet HM trials)
    plays PC/NA
    handle @Necrotech_Master
    active player since april 2014

    i have my main house (grand topal hideaway) listed in the housing tours, it has multiple target dummies, scribing altar, and grandmaster stations (in progress being filled out), as well as almost every antiquity furnishing on display to preview them

    feel free to stop by and use the facilities
  • Galeriano
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    There are tons of heavy attack builds who don’t use oakensoul or it’s buffs. And achieve good results.

    Name one and show logs with it. Oakensoul completly swooped other HA builds from the table because while it produces almost similar DPS numbers it does that in a way simplier manner.
  • Galeriano
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    Why couldn’t the answer be remove the buffs or lower them and just keep empower ? I don’t care about the buffs I use oakensoul for empower.

    All buffs provided by oakensoul are universal, You can't just lower lot of them because that will hurt literally everyone, tanks, healers and DDs, both one and two bar ones since everyone without oakensoul is also using many of the buffs that oakensoul provides,
    Edited by Galeriano on April 25, 2023 9:46PM
  • Galeriano
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    Right well the thing with me is I can weave and can bar swap I can maintain dots. The issue is a hand issue where I can’t do it for long with out pain I need to literally stop for a minute and it clearly can’t be good dps.

    I don’t like weaving I don’t think it fits the elder scrolls world. But I can do it as a skill I just can’t do it for long with my issues. People need to understand many using this are in the same boat.

    If it's LA weaving that causes Your hand issue than You can just stop doing it. One light attack once every 10 seconds and good job with the ability rotation is enough to get 110k+ parses which is more than enough to clear everything.
    Edited by Galeriano on April 25, 2023 9:51PM
  • Tradewind
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    Galeriano wrote: »
    If it's LA weaving that causes Your hand issue than You can just stop doing it. One light attack once every 10 seconds and good job with the ability rotation is enough to get 110k+ parses which is more than enough to clear everything.

    It's getting really late for me, and today was not an easy day at all. Because of all of this, maybe I misunderstood you, but how did you parse 110k by casting 1 LA every 10 seconds?
  • Galeriano
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    Tradewind wrote: »

    It's getting really late for me, and today was not an easy day at all. Because of all of this, maybe I misunderstood you, but how did you parse 110k by casting 1 LA every 10 seconds?

    One LA every 10 seconds AND good job with the ability rotation. You rotate all of Your abilities properly and use light attack once every 10 seconds just to secure ultimate generation.
  • Rkindaleft
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    k88z8s2tqipd.jpeg


    If you find this “polite” towards those with disabilities, than maybe you are the problem.

    This isn't a direct response to you but I saw the photos and thought it was an important point to bring to the discussion. IT'S NOT ABOUT GATEKEEPING AND FOR THE PEOPLE COMPLAINING ABOUT IT, IT'S NEVER ABOUT THE INACCESSIBILITY OF DPS TO DISABLED PEOPLE.

    HA builds in general are a fantastic accessibility option for people who can't/won't run other options and no one wants to take away your enjoyment of the game - but the build does too much DPS for how easy it is to play, flat out. ZOS realised this, hence why it got nerfed.

    I know you said you're a solo/casual player so you probably won't do this but all you need to do is open esologs.com and pick any, I mean, any trial in the last month. You can look at the logs and the equipment and you'll see that over half of all DPS for every other trial and like 90% of the people running vAS are Oakensorc users. Are they using the build for an accessibility option, or are they using it because the build is extremely strong?

    I play on PS5 and there's like a thousand new vAS trifectas in the last 2 months alone and basically 95% of them were done on the Oakensorc build. If that build didn't exist then that number would be like 10% of what it is now. Having high dps whilst being extremely tanky (30k health with full undaunted passives, 25k resists and can be fully ranged), with a couple button rotation is too much for how little effort it actually takes to do, methinks.


    Edited by Rkindaleft on April 25, 2023 10:36PM
    https://youtube.com/@rkindaleft PlayStation NA. I upload parses and trial POVs sometimes.
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  • isadoraisacat
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    Rkindaleft wrote: »

    This isn't a direct response to you but I saw the photos and thought it was an important point to bring to the discussion. IT'S NOT ABOUT GATEKEEPING AND FOR THE PEOPLE COMPLAINING ABOUT IT, IT'S NEVER ABOUT THE INACCESSIBILITY OF DPS TO DISABLED PEOPLE.

    HA builds in general are a fantastic accessibility option for people who can't/won't run other options and no one wants to take away your enjoyment of the game - but the build does too much DPS for how easy it is to play, flat out. ZOS realised this, hence why it got nerfed.

    I know you said you're a solo/casual player so you probably won't do this but all you need to do is open esologs.com and pick any, I mean, any trial in the last month. You can look at the logs and the equipment and you'll see that over half of all DPS for every other trial and like 90% of the people running vAS are Oakensorc users. Are they using the build for an accessibility option, or are they using it because the build is extremely strong?

    I play on PS5 and there's like a thousand new vAS trifectas in the last 2 months alone and basically 95% of them were done on the Oakensorc build. If that build didn't exist then that number would be like 10% of what it is now. Having high dps whilst being extremely tanky (30k health with full undaunted passives, 25k resists and can be fully ranged), with a couple button rotation is too much for how little effort it actually takes to do, methinks.


    But all y’all have nothing to say about people who pay elites for “Carries” at least these people are playing the game themselves and doing it themselves.

    And your right I’m not gonna log into Jack and look up Jack.

    Not everyone wants to go pew pew the combat system is not fun disabilities aside many people flat out hate the combat because it feels more like a fighter game mixed with guitar hero and a shoot ‘em up game. Some people want to feel combat that’s closer to a real elder scrolls game and find it more fun. This still doesn’t negate the mechanics people need to know to play in these end game areas which in themselves see harder than than brain dead weaving once you learn how to do it it’s just shut off the brain and click click.

    They are still dodging and working with the mechanics and with the others in the team.

    But whatever I’m tired of arguing with people about this it’s clear people like you don’t like these builds and I’m not gonna change your mind. I’m not posting to change your mind I’m here to let zos know people
    Aren’t happy with the changes they make the changes not you.
    Edited by isadoraisacat on April 25, 2023 10:55PM
  • Amottica
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    Rkindaleft wrote: »

    This isn't a direct response to you but I saw the photos and thought it was an important point to bring to the discussion. IT'S NOT ABOUT GATEKEEPING AND FOR THE PEOPLE COMPLAINING ABOUT IT, IT'S NEVER ABOUT THE INACCESSIBILITY OF DPS TO DISABLED PEOPLE.

    HA builds in general are a fantastic accessibility option for people who can't/won't run other options and no one wants to take away your enjoyment of the game - but the build does too much DPS for how easy it is to play, flat out. ZOS realised this, hence why it got nerfed.

    I know you said you're a solo/casual player so you probably won't do this but all you need to do is open esologs.com and pick any, I mean, any trial in the last month. You can look at the logs and the equipment and you'll see that over half of all DPS for every other trial and like 90% of the people running vAS are Oakensorc users. Are they using the build for an accessibility option, or are they using it because the build is extremely strong?

    I play on PS5 and there's like a thousand new vAS trifectas in the last 2 months alone and basically 95% of them were done on the Oakensorc build. If that build didn't exist then that number would be like 10% of what it is now. Having high dps whilst being extremely tanky (30k health with full undaunted passives, 25k resists and can be fully ranged), with a couple button rotation is too much for how little effort it actually takes to do, methinks.


    I agree, as I have noted previously. A simple build such as a HA build and especially one that relies on only one bar should never do dps near what is more complex builds do. Otherwise, it trivializes such builds and makes skill-based play pointless which would drive players away.

    It is not about accessibility for people who have challenges playing the game with a more complex skill-based build as many who face such challenges find ways to get the job done. It is about having content and achievements for those willing to put effort into playing the game at the highest level and doing what is needed to obtain the most challenging tasks.

    Otherwise, those challenging tasks become trivial.
  • isadoraisacat
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    [snip]

    We understand you are upset about the changes. It literally happens every major update. Some times you get a nerf and sometimes you get a buff. You have to adapt or move on.

    The amount of censoring on an almost identical (now closed) thread was unbelievable. Baiting on the forums is a disservice to the those of us trying to be productive.

    [snip]

    He flat out seems to be ignoring help. I understand people are passionate about this game and all elder scrolls and can get emotional.
    I have a guild who would be happy to run with him and slow progress and not be judgmental But the ball is in his court.

    He just needs to find the right group of people who are relaxed who just want to play and take it serious but not at a level that is extreme militant in terms of how the dps is done. Many are fine with that.

    [edited quote]
    Edited by ZOS_Kraken on April 26, 2023 5:41PM
  • Tradewind
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    He flat out seems to be ignoring help.
    That is not fair at all. I really wish to know how I (or we) can make this:
    Galeriano wrote: »
    If it's LA weaving that causes Your hand issue than You can just stop doing it. One light attack once every 10 seconds and good job with the ability rotation is enough to get 110k+ parses which is more than enough to clear everything.
    Can you please help me (or us) and provide all the details about it?

    "110k with One light attack once every 10 seconds and good job with the ability rotation" This will be more than enough to complete any top-tier content.

    [Snip]

    [Edited for conspiracy theory]
    Edited by ZOS_Volpe on April 26, 2023 4:45PM
  • Ishtarknows
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    Tradewind wrote: »

    So, can you please help me understand why something is being nerfed if it's already weak?


    It's not weak

    Having close to 30k health, close to tank level resistances and putting out ~70% of max achievable damage is not weak! It's too strong. Of course something had to give.

  • KS_Amt38
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    I love the LA vs. HA threads over and over again. I thought this is a thread about the minimum req for Trifectas, but it is a complaining session of how much discriminating the nerfs to HA builds are... phew.

    Well I like my HA-Build, but I should not be able to do a Trifecta Achievement with it.
  • Agenericname
    Agenericname
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    Yes, they can do it. They have, and there are still groups doing it. I suspect they will still be able to do it after U38 as well.

    Youre conflating parse numbers with what a player can achieve in the content. Groups use the parse on the 21M as the metric to gauge DPS, but what matters is what happens in content. In some cases HA builds translate the damage better. That's part of what makes them strong.

    Its not uncommon for groups to spend longer than 3 days on a trifecta. Thats more of a "manage your expectations" thing than it is a "x build cant run this content" thing.

    The numbers youre using seem mostly arbitrary and without basis. I would suggest looking at the logs of groups that run the content and what builds theyre using to get a better idea of the actual numbers.

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