What are the minimum requirements (DPS) to complete any top-tier content, such as godslayer?

Tradewind

Let's talk a bit more about DPS and how much is necessary to complete top-tier Trifectas.

Imagine this:
One DD is shouting in Craglorn for 2 Tanks, 2 Healers, and more 7 DDs for vSS HM (Godslayer). This player will be the target of so many jokes and harassment in the chat window, but even so... By some miracle, he find 2 very skilled tanks and 2 very skilled healers. Unfortunately, all DDs who joined can't parse more than 90k on a target dummy.
Is it accurate to say that most players using a 2bar builds will have around 90k DPS? If the average DPS falls below 90k, then we will assume they can parse 90k in Dummy.
They will try Godslayer because all of them have completed vSS more than 100 times, and they all know the mechanics very well and what they need to do. They even know each position with their eyes closed. Yeah, let's keep the focus only on DPS.

• If these players can only parse 90k on a dummy, we can expect them to hit around 40k in a vSS HM trial. One or two players may be able to parse higher, but others may stay at or below 40k. It's important to remember that they are average DDs with two bars and are performing rotations, they aren't top-tier DDs.

Can these players achieve something like Godslayer? Yes or no? Why?

Last 4 questions:

1. What is the minimum DPS (focusing only on DPS) that any player should have to complete top-tier "Trifecta" (Because, no one likes to spend three days on one trial.)?
2. Where did you get information about the minimum requested DPS for completing top-tier content?
3. If DPS is not enough and sadly, many players can't have a perfect rotation, it's fair to say: "Sorry dude, but you really need to pay us (top-tier players) for one ride if you wish to achieve that.
4. Who will win something because others with 90k don't have enought DPS to complete hardest content? 90k in Dummy but only 40k inside content

kevkj

You can't let getting passed over for a Godslayer group affect you this badly man, take a break from the game or something.

Tradewind

kevkj wrote: »

You can't let getting passed over for a Godslayer group affect you this badly man, take a break from the game or something.

I'm indeed very sad with ZeniMax and with the game. I may even indeed stop playing the game. But for now, I only need to understand some doubts I have about all of this. I see no reason to give up before trying to understand it.

aaisoaho

If the damage dealers are doing 40k DPS in content, they won't be able to even pass the hardmode, let alone do Godslayer (godslayer is the trifecta, that is, hardmode, speedrun and no death all in one). This is because the group would grind to halt during Nahvintaas hardmode's portal mechanic. In the portal, there is an add called Eternal Servant. On hardmode, eternal servant has 11 million health and you have 90 seconds to kill it or it will wipe the group. You can only send 3 damage dealers to portals, and it'd require the damage dealers to do 120k+ DPS on total, so 40k+ per damage dealer. There is also mechanics there, such as pinning, blocking a cone etc, so the damage dealers need to be able to do more than 40k per damage dealer.

Tradewind

aaisoaho wrote: »

If the damage dealers are doing 40k DPS in content, they won't be able to even pass the hardmode, let alone do Godslayer (godslayer is the trifecta, that is, hardmode, speedrun and no death all in one). This is because the group would grind to halt during Nahvintaas hardmode's portal mechanic. In the portal, there is an add called Eternal Servant. On hardmode, eternal servant has 11 million health and you have 90 seconds to kill it or it will wipe the group. You can only send 3 damage dealers to portals, and it'd require the damage dealers to do 120k+ DPS on total, so 40k+ per damage dealer. There is also mechanics there, such as pinning, blocking a cone etc, so the damage dealers need to be able to do more than 40k per damage dealer.

Is it accurate to say that the average HA users can make 70k inside trials? yes. Some will do more, some will do less.
So, average players can switch to HA (1bar) instead of 2bars. With this kind of build, average players will make 70k. Will this be enough to achieve Godslayer? No. Even if they switch to HA, they will not achieve Godslayer because they can't do 120k inside the portal, and this is 100% true.
HA users cannot do 120k inside the portal. I know this.

So, can you please help me understand why something is being nerfed if it's already weak?

And remember, we are talking about average players with HA builds. The average player using HA does not achieve 100k inside trials.

edit:
By the way, a very skilled 2bar player can solo portals in vSS, or 2 very skilled players will be enough for HM.
For vSS 2 HA can make portals (not just one), but 3 very good players in HA will NOT be able to make them. I have seen this happen enough times to be 100% sure of what I'm talking about.
Thank you, @thorwyn. I was wrong on this point. After all, 3HA players can make portals.

thorwyn

If these players can only parse 90k on a dummy, we can expect them to hit around 40k in a vSS HM trial. One or two players may be able to parse higher, but others may stay at or below 40k. It's important to remember that they are average DDs with two bars and are performing rotations, they aren't top-tier DDs.


Can these players achieve something like Godslayer? Yes or no? Why?

No, because the damage is too low to finish the raid below 30 minutes (let alone play the portals successfully).

What is the minimum DPS (focusing only on DPS) that any player should have to complete top-tier "Trifecta" (Because, no one likes to spend three days on one trial.)?

Depends on the raid. Do the math... look up the bosses, calculate "down times" such als portals/tombs/immune pahses etc., calculate the trash fights etc.
Most raid leads are aiming for a dps treshold they are comfortable with.

Where did you get information about the minimum requested DPS for completing top-tier content?

From the raid lead. And if I meet the requirements, I might apply for the job. If not, I won't.

If DPS is not enough and sadly, many players can't have a perfect rotation, it's fair to say: "Sorry dude, but you really need to pay us (top-tier players) for one ride if you wish to achieve that.

Reverse the question: If you are not able to meet the requirements for an achievement, is it fair to say "Dudes, I know I'm too weak, so please carry me and try to compensate the dps loss because I really want that title...mind if I go afk while you are fighting?"?
A carry run is a service just like any other service in the game. It's up to you to decide whether or not you want to pay for that service, or find a group that does it for free. That kind of things should be sorted out beofre the raid though. Once you are in a group, it's not ok to ask for payment of course.

Who will win something because others with 90k don't have enought DPS to complete hardest content? 90k in Dummy but only 40k inside content

Who wins something when every group accepts anyone regardless of performance and never gets anything done?


Welcome back btw.

Tradewind

thorwyn wrote: »

Reverse the question: If you are not able to meet the requirements for an achievement, is it fair to say "Dudes, I know I'm too weak, so please carry me and try to compensate the dps loss because I really want that title...mind if I go afk while you are fighting?"?

Or maybe, instead of offering them services, maybe we should say to them:
-Hey, have you tried the 1bar build? You will be stronger and maybe you can achieve what you are looking for. But do it right now and before patch 38 because if your DPS is not enough now, it will be even worse after.

ps: I truly understand how offering services functions in ESO. Average good players are indeed a very bad business.

thorwyn

Or maybe, instead of offering them services, maybe we should say to them:
-Hey, have you tried the 1bar build? You will be stronger and maybe you can achieve what you are looking for. But do it right now and before patch 38 because if your DPS is not enough now, it will be even worse after.

Great idea, except it's not up to you to decide what other people should or should not say. You are only in control of the things YOU say. So why not do what you are proposing:
Log on to ESO, gather some HA build players and go for the title.

Tradewind

thorwyn wrote: »

Or maybe, instead of offering them services, maybe we should say to them:
-Hey, have you tried the 1bar build? You will be stronger and maybe you can achieve what you are looking for. But do it right now and before patch 38 because if your DPS is not enough now, it will be even worse after.

Great idea, except it's not up to you to decide what other people should or should not say. You are only in control of the things YOU say. So why not do what you are proposing:
Log on to ESO, gather some HA build players and go for the title.

I couldn't agree more. But it was a great idea, right?
What about my first post. Do you have nothing more to offer us?

edit:
Starting to create my own group is, without any question, my goal here. However, first, I need to know the minimum DPS required in 2 bars to achieve top-tier trifectas.

thorwyn

What about my first post. Do you have nothing more to offer us?

I answered your question about the 40k dps. No, they will not be able to get the GS because the fights will take too long and they would fail at the Navi portal.

Tradewind

thorwyn wrote: »

What about my first post. Do you have nothing more to offer us?

I answered your question about the 40k dps. No, they will not be able to get the GS because the fights will take too long.

100% sorry, I did not notice it was you!

edit:
Maybe Zenimax needs to say/clarify something like: "We will take actions to block 1Bar users from achieving top-tier trifectas.
-i will use this in my signature.

thorwyn

Btw instead of asking for theoretical dps numbers (which never really translate to actual content performance):
There is a video on yt from a group doing GS with oakensoul. You can check their dps during the encounters to get an idea what is required.

perfiction

Tradewind wrote: »

Maybe Zenimax needs to say/clarify something like: "We will take actions to block 1Bar users from achieving top-tier trifectas.
-i will use this in my signature.

It's not ZOS gatekeeping 1bar builds, it's a git gud issue. Easy onebar rotation can't fix your lack of experience or mechanics/team composition knowledge.You could 100% kill the servant with 3 onebar players, 'safe' dps target is like 45k which is easily achieveable. There are 3 things to keep in mind tho:
- you have to stack for pins to save time, otherwise you'll waste crucial seconds running around and unpinning
- for the interrupt mechanic don't stand too close for the servant (it knocks you back which again costs some time to recover) and bash at the last possible second (so you avoid other mechanics for longer)
- you must have decent comp downstairs to provide debuffs (for example necro for major breach + using Colo when entering the portal, so first hit goes on dragon and next 2 hit the servant for major vulnerability; warden for minor vulnerability)

Tradewind

thorwyn wrote: »

Btw instead of asking for theoretical dps numbers (which never really translate to actual content performance):
There is a video on yt from a group doing GS with oakensoul. You can check their dps during the encounters to get an idea what is required.

I really didnt know about this:

https://youtu.be/esBqC2NKhKk

.
Ok, they can make it. Great!

however, they did not better then:

https://youtu.be/oTmxinyua0Y

25 minutes versus 19 minutes is, in fact, a very big difference. Six minutes is enough time to complete two more word records.

edit:

"we're seeing these builds inch a little too close to some of the high end builds with how much more simplified they are"

at this point we can see: Best DPS 73K worse 52k
At this point we can see: Best DPS 115K worse 60K

I will rephrase my question: Why nerf a build that is already weaker than other builds?

VaranisArano

Tradewind wrote: »

So, can you please help me understand why something is being nerfed if it's already weak?

I'm guessing this is the crux of your concern here, not hypotheticals about Godslayer.

Let's review what ZOS actually said about the Empower nerf in the PTS patch notes:

"Since we've started working on Heavy Attack build viability in the past year, we've seen a massive surge in their use, which is absolutely phenomenal for seeing more players being able to participate in end-game content at a much more digestible pace. While we're happy to see these builds being ran, we're seeing these builds inch a little too close to some of the high end builds with how much more simplified they are, and in some rare cases, they're outperforming a standard build. We're cutting down the damage bonus here ever so slightly in hopes that when you have Empower with a bunch of other Heavy Attack bonus sets, the numbers are still nice and juicy, but not as close to a full-on Light Attack build."

So to explain the reasoning here, ZOS doesn't see HA builds as weak. ZOS sees that they've achieved their goal of seeing more players participating in end game content st a digestible pace. However, ZOS' also realizes that HA builds are simpler than 2 bar builds and does not want them overtaking 2 bar builds. This is unsurprising given how much the current combat team has spoken about how much they like what high APM light attack weaving brings to combat and how skill benefits high-end players.

You've constructed a hypothetical scenario where you present HA builds as weak because they are unable to complete Godslayer, one of the hardest achievements available in end game PVE. That does not seem to me to be a valid evaluation of what ZOS discussed in the patch notes.

I suggest you reevaluate your scenario in light of what ZOS is saying.

Have you considered that ZOS is using a different standard to measure endgame participation than Godslayer completions? A more realistic standard might be players who were not comfortable doing Trials at all who are now completing normal and vet trials for the first time with HA builds.

Have you considered that ZOS' goal of having more players in endgame content is still readily achievable with the Empower nerf? Again, to measure this, you might look at the bottom end, not the hardest achievements possible. Are players losing enough DPS to start missing DPS checks again or is the DPS loss negligible? (Most parses I'm seeing suggest negligible.)

Have you considered that ZOS does not intend for HA builds to be equal to 2-bar builds due to their comparative simplicity? That the Combat Devs will likely continue to nerf HA builds when necessary to keep them in their target range below 2-bar builds because the Devs like ESO's 2-bar combat system and don't want everyone using simpler HA builds in ESO's hardest content?


In the end, I don't think the Devs see HA builds as weak. If anything, it sounds like they think some HA builds were slightly overperforming the target range the Devs had in mind for them.

I suppose there's an argument to be had about whether that target range should include something like the average HA user being able to get Godslayer...but frankly, I don't think an average anything is going to get Godslayer without a carry.

RealLoveBVB

Tradewind wrote: »

I will rephrase my question: Why nerf a build that is already weaker than other builds?

Simple: the effort:outcome is still to high. Even after the nerf you will still have enough damage to beat hard content- with pressing just a single key.

It was obvious they are going to to something about the HA builds. They just had 2 options: either buffing 2 bar builds or nerfing HA builds. Since it's not in their interest to buff 2 bar builds again, they went for the nerf to have the fair gap again.

thorwyn

However, I will rephrase my question: Why nerf a build that is already weaker than other builds?

You are falling into the same logical trap as last time: taking the extremes as a reference point to compare build performances. For the majority of people it is not possible to outperform a HA build during a raid because the HA build is a lot easier to play in actual combat situations. Or in other words: the dps difference from dummy to trial is much higher on a 2 bar build than it is on a HA build. If that wasn't the case, we would not see oodles and oodles of HA builds and HA-only groups on esologs. ZOS is trying to address that.

Tradewind

RealLoveBVB

Tradewind wrote: »

"we're seeing these builds inch a little too close to some of the high end builds with how much more simplified they are"

at this point we can see: Best DPS 73K worse 52k
At this point we can see: Best DPS 115K worse 60K

Does this seem fair to you? Nerfing one build with 42k less DPS.

TheForFeeF

So, after reading the comments, it seems like your actual issue is that ZoS are "nerfing" storm masters and empower in the next update, thus "nerfing" Oakensoul HA builds? Not actually about the DPS "gatekeeping" for vSS HM + No Death + Speedrun?

Tradewind

thorwyn wrote: »

You are falling into the same logical trap as last time: taking the extremes as a reference point to compare build performances.

For the majority of people it is not possible to outperform a HA build during a raid because the HA build is a lot easier to play in actual combat situations.

Or in other words: the dps difference from dummy to trial is much higher on a 2 bar build than it is on a HA build. If that wasn't the case, we would not see oodles and oodles of HA builds and HA-only groups on esologs. ZOS is trying to address that.

Those 2bar players with less DPS than HA can still play with HA if they wish.
They can train to be better and indeed become stronger than any HA player.
However, HA players will never be stronger than skilled 2bar players. Never!

Most of you only accept that HA is strong, but you cannot accept that 2-bar players can train and evolve to be better. And you don't even talk about how HA will never be stronger than skilled players in 2-bars, and they should never be.

RealLoveBVB

BTW, first godslayers were made 2019/2020 and at this point it was high end when reaching 90k dps.

HA builds are close to that. Also bosses have 10% less hp now compared to 2020.
So you can also finish GS with that HA build.

VaranisArano

Tradewind wrote: »

thorwyn wrote: »

Btw instead of asking for theoretical dps numbers (which never really translate to actual content performance):
There is a video on yt from a group doing GS with oakensoul. You can check their dps during the encounters to get an idea what is required.

I really didnt know about this:

https://youtu.be/esBqC2NKhKk

.
Ok, they can make it. Great!

however, they did not better then:

https://youtu.be/oTmxinyua0Y

25 minutes versus 19 minutes is, in fact, a very big difference. Six minutes is enough time to complete two more word records.

edit:

"we're seeing these builds inch a little too close to some of the high end builds with how much more simplified they are"

at this point we can see: Best DPS 73K worse 52k
At this point we can see: Best DPS 115K worse 60K

I will rephrase my question: Why nerf a build that is already weaker than other builds?

BINGO.

You highlighted the answer.

ZOS doesn't want HA builds being equal to 2-bar builds because they are more simplified.

If you've been reading the Combat Previews and Patch Notes since ZOS started experimenting with light attacks, you'd know that the Devs really like LA weaving. They've talked about the depth it adds to the combat system fairly regularly.

For example, in the recent Developer Deep Dive on ESO's core values, they talked about Active Combat (which includes weapon swapping) and Mastery (which includes light attack weaving, optimizing ability rotations, timing, and real-time resource management).
Source: https://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en-us/news/post/63417

By all those standards, HA builds are simpler, require less active participation and less mastery to use effectively than 2-bar builds.

That's why HA builds are so desirable for players who would otherwise have low DPS due to a variety of reasons, some of them disabilities.

That's also why ZOS is so determined to make sure that HA builds do not overtake or challenge the effectiveness of 2-bar builds. 2-bar builds are more in line with ZOS' core values; it should not be surprising that ZOS wants them to be demonstrably stronger than the easier, simpler option.

Effectively, ZOS wants HA builds to "stay in their lane." It's great that HA builds increase participation in endgame content, but they aren't supposed to be as good as the 2-bar builds that better embody the core values of Active Combat and Mastery.

Tradewind

TheForFeeF wrote: »

So, after reading the comments, it seems like your actual issue is that ZoS are "nerfing" storm masters and empower in the next update, thus "nerfing" Oakensoul HA builds? Not actually about the DPS "gatekeeping" for vSS HM + No Death + Speedrun?

It's all about that. After patch 38 and the nerfs, can HA players still do this? We will see...


edit:
@VaranisArano - "you'd know that the Devs really like LA weaving."
They like it because they will never be able to fix it. We both know this is true, and there's no need to create many off-topic discussions around this. They can't fix weaving. It's sad, but for me, it's all okay.

thorwyn

Those 2bar players with less DPS than HA can still play with HA if they wish.
They can trainee to be better and indeed become stronger than any HA player.
However, HA players will never be stronger than skilled 2bar players. Never!

Yes, 2bar palyers can play with HA players and many of them do.
But why should 2 bar players "trainee" harder to outperform an item that just requires pressing one button? If you compare investment to result, it is the HA build that is out of place, hence the popularity, hence the nerf.

Tradewind

thorwyn wrote: »

But why should 2 bar players "train" harder to outperform an item that just requires pressing one button? If you compare investment to result, it is the HA build that is out of place, hence the popularity, hence the nerf.

You don't have to if you don't wish to. Of course not. Use HA and you will do more DPS, and it will be easier. Focus on mechanics and in-game actions, and leave the complicated thing called "rotation" aside. It will be more enjoyable than tedious.


On the other hand, if you wish to achieve the best possible DPS the game allows, you have to train two bars rotation.

thorwyn

Use HA and you will do more DPS, and it will be easier. Focus on mechanics and in-game actions, and leave the complicated thing called "rotation" aside.

No thanks, I have standards.

VaranisArano

Tradewind wrote: »

TheForFeeF wrote: »

So, after reading the comments, it seems like your actual issue is that ZoS are "nerfing" storm masters and empower in the next update, thus "nerfing" Oakensoul HA builds? Not actually about the DPS "gatekeeping" for vSS HM + No Death + Speedrun?

It's all about that. After patch 38 and the nerfs, can HA players still do this? We will see...


edit:
@VaranisArano - "you'd know that the Devs really like LA weaving."
They like it because they will never be able to fix it. We both know this is true, and there's no need to create many off-topic discussions around this. They can't fix weaving. It's sad, but for me, it's all okay.

ZOS can't fix it...and they aren't trying to. Quite the opposite.

U35 Combat Preview: "Currently, to be truly effective in ESO’s combat, you need to learn to manipulate something that is known as “weaving,” which refers to the act of squeezing multiple actions into the global cooldown window. Doing so drastically increases your agency and output, and it is a staple of the game that we’ve come to embrace, as it helps our combat feel different and exciting to participate in once you learn the ins and outs. "

And no, it's not off-topic.

When we're discussing why ZOS is nerfing your beloved HA builds, it's worth noting that ZOS really came to embrace LA weaving as a core game mechanic and that the best 2-bar builds make heavy use of LA weaving with Relequen...and HA builds don't.

ZOS isn't nerfing HA builds because they are weak. ZOS is nerfing them because they were getting too strong compared to the 2-bar builds and game mechanics that ZOS really views as engaging.

wolfie1.0.

Tradewind wrote: »

thorwyn wrote: »

But why should 2 bar players "trainee" harder to outperform an item that just requires pressing one button? If you compare investment to result, it is the HA build that is out of place, hence the popularity, hence the nerf.

You don't have to if you don't wish to. Of course not. Use HA and you will do more DPS, and it will be easier. Focus on mechanics and in-game actions, and leave the complicated thing called "rotation" aside. It will be more enjoyable than tedious.


On the other hand, if you wish to achieve the best possible DPS the game allows, you have to train two bars rotation.

And you just highlighted why ZOS is making the change. Have to understand that all gear/builds have a strong possibility of nerfs. It's going to happen at some point.

I personally have been through 6 character main swaps since I started playing, and I even stopped doing endgame pve content during certian periods, all due to build/class nerfs.

Honestly, be grateful the nerf to empower is only 10%, they could have just as easily dropped it back down to the original pre monster only change.

Tradewind

VaranisArano wrote: »

ZOS can't fix it...and they aren't trying to. Quite the opposite.

-They tried...

VaranisArano wrote: »

ZOS isn't nerfing HA builds because they are weak. ZOS is nerfing them because they were getting too strong compared to the 2-bar builds and game mechanics that ZOS really views as engaging.

HA builds are not better. (i will not repeat myself again)

Charon_on_Vacation

op, at some point you have to accept that the devs want to reward skill to a degree that is higher than you would like it.
it's totally fine if you want to be able to achieve things like godslayer and co without having the same amount of skill that other players have, but you should realize that this is obviously not what the devs want.
this is also not an outlier.
it's the norm in most mmos.

FantasticFreddie

Tradewind wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

ZOS can't fix it...and they aren't trying to. Quite the opposite.

-They tried...

VaranisArano wrote: »

ZOS isn't nerfing HA builds because they are weak. ZOS is nerfing them because they were getting too strong compared to the 2-bar builds and game mechanics that ZOS really views as engaging.

HA builds are not better. (i will not repeat myself again)

HA BUILDS ARE BETTER AT ALLOWING THE MAJORITY OF PLAYERS TO EASILY HIT A HIGH DPS THRESHOLD THAT THEY MAY NOT BE ABLE TO HIT OTHERWISE.
That is what people have been telling you, over and over and over.

I'm not disabled. I am older, didn't start gaming until I was nearly 30, and simply cannot push the buttons as fast as some of these young pups hitting 134k on a dummy. I can hit 100k on a dummy on a good day-- most days are not that good. Oakensorc has allowed me to suddenly be a respectable dps in content I was previously bottom barrel dd. I have been able to get IR on my sorc, an achievement that I can get as a healer but was not a realistic goal for me as a dd.

You keep willfully misinterpreting the concept of 2 bar builds having a higher damage ceiling as them being better, for everyone, all the time, and that is not true. Basically anyone that, for ANY reason struggles with a 2 bar build, will improve when swapped to an oakensoul 1 bar build-- making one bar builds objectively better than 2 bar builds for a huge chunk of players.

And yes, an oakensoul group got PB recently. They are ridiculously strong for how simple and easy they are.
Dialing back their power by a small amount isn't the end of the world. Even with a 6% nerf just about everything will still be possible. A friend of mine was in a RG hm speed run with oakensorcs. With deaths, and a DC on last boss they still made the speedrun. The trifecfa will still be possible with a 6% nerf.

I think what is happening here is you got it into your head that HA builds are bad and stupid and only disabled people were using them, and you don't like to be wrong.