Update 44 is now available for testing on the PTS! You can read the latest patch notes here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/categories/pts
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• PC/Mac: NA and EU megaservers for maintenance – September 30, 4:00AM EDT (8:00 UTC) - 8:00AM EDT (12:00 UTC)
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Thoughts of a Random Guy on Necrom Changes to HA / Heavy-Attack builds & on Arcanist
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CameraBeardThePirate✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭isadoraisacat wrote: »isadoraisacat wrote: »isadoraisacat wrote: »isadoraisacat wrote: »isadoraisacat wrote: »CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »isadoraisacat wrote: »Wow, I'm pleasantly surprised by the overwhelming number of replies! Thank you to everyone who took the time to share their thoughts on this topic. It's great to see so many insightful comments.
Hopefully, ZOS will take note of the community's concerns and reconsider their proposed changes to Storm Master and Empower before they go live with Necrom. I've noticed that there have been some misunderstandings regarding the extent of the nerf, with some suggesting it's only up to around 6%. However, I want to clarify that the numbers I provided earlier are not mere estimations or guesses, but actual results obtained from testing DPS in combat. So here are the accurate numbers once again.
SM Live vs PTS
-23.99% max DPS (-17.82% avg DPS)
The above DPS loss will be even worse in actual combat scenarios, because Storm Master uptimes (and thus DPS) are likely to decrease even further. This is due to the fact that if a player misses the 3-second window to deal critical damage (which is common since most HA builds have a critical chance of around 40-50%), the Storm Master buff falls off.
By the way, it's worth noting that the Undaunted Infiltrator set is not a viable alternative to Storm Master. In fact, it still falls short in comparison. Here's why:
SM Live vs Undaunted Infiltrator (UI) PTS
-24.96% max DPS (-20.64% avg DPS)
If you're interested in verifying these test results for yourself, it's easy to do so by logging into the PTS. Here are some more details on how to replicate the experiment:
Test Assumptions:- The purpose of this test is to evaluate how the proposed changes affect Heavy Attack DPS, so we are only interested in sets and abilities that are specific to Heavy Attack builds. Therefore, we will exclude sets and abilities that are not relevant to this test, such as Pillar of Nirn and Volatile Familiar.
- To minimize confounding factors and isolate the variables under test, we need to control for various factors such as differences in builds, classes, player skill level, and random variations caused by Critical Rating and Critical Damage. The controlled variables for this experiment are:
- The combat ruleset (live vs PTS)
- The 5-piece body set used (Storm Master and Undaunted Infiltrator).
Body
1x L Slimecraw
1x Sergeant (heavy)
5x Strom Master or Undaunted Infiltrator (both medium)
Bar & Accessories
Sergeant's Mail (lightning, neck, ring)
Oakensoul Ring
Same abilities, attributes, CPs, mundus, and target dummy for every test build.
To minimize the impact of player-executed rotation on the test results, we used Heavy Attack weaving as the rotation for this experiment. The rotation used was as follows:- Wall
- Heavy Attack
- Heavy Attack
- Heavy Attack
- Heavy Attack
Results - see the beginning of this post (for details please see the image)
TL;DR
To summarize:
Based on the data collected, it appears that the proposed changes will result in a significant nerf to the maximum achievable Heavy Attack damage, with a reduction of approximately -24%. It's important to note that this test was conducted on a stationary target. In actual combat scenarios, Storm Master uptimes (and thus DPS) are likely to decrease even further. This is due to the fact that if a player misses the 3-second window to deal critical damage (which is common since most HA builds have a critical chance of around 40-50%), the Storm Master buff falls off.
I don’t think people realize how deadly of a hit this is giving to ha builds. I think it may render some of our builds for us low dps solo players useless.
I guess it’s back to sucking wind and doing quests with as little combat as possible now and not being able to use all the content I pay for. Unless they review these things and decide not to move forward with this.
Personally I was happy with my main character the dps I was getting for now and the content I was able to do because of it it (even tho it still needs a ton of work I was Still is a much better place I’d never reach other wise without this ).
Sorry, but the test you quoted is not accurate. One can't test the DPS loss like that because it will not be an accurate assessment on the impact of the build. You need to test the entire build or the numbers will be greatly skewed.
When testing a full build on PTS vs Live, you only see a 6% damage loss. This is because, while the nerf to Storm Master's may impact your HA damage by 20% or so, wearing it in tandem with other sets will mitigate that loss. HA damage also only accounts for around 70% of the DPS of a HA build, so your overall dps is not impacted by 20% like the quoted test states.
You can check my post in the PTS forum for an accurate comparison between full parses.
Oh ok. Well for someone like me who is only hitting 25k dps half finished with their build it’s a massive hit to me and will further make it harder to finish my build that’s already been nerfed.
It’s almost like you are defending the changes because it’s what you wanted it. Trust me I’ll never be able to out parse you lol
It’s not my goal. I was shooting for 30-40 k max and I’m only at 25k I’m striving to focus on the solo arenas and many people like me aren’t hitting high dps or even affect your groups what so ever.
Make a parse on 21M trial dummy not 3/6M one. It gives more reliable starting point to know where are You at with Your DPS.
I unfortunately don’t have one and my guild as far as I know doesn’t have one either.
You can teleport to the house of someone who have one if it's an open house. Just type this command in chat /script JumpToHouse("@house owner ID") and You will be able to teleport to the house of someone who have 21M trial dummy. So now just ask around for someone on Your server who have free to visit house with a trial dummy. There is plenty of people like that.
I’ll ask I don’t know anyone who has one and i do not believe my guilds have them.
But I’m telling your right now I’m not going to be holding down one button slaying gods it will be a very low and sad number. You are reallY overestimating it.
It's not that like have any expectations towards Your DPS. I just said that trial dummy is a more reliable source of data. You can also ask around for people like that in zone chats.
Just did a target blood nignt and got 19k dps
Once again this is holding down just the one button no dots. People are gravely over estimating the dps
Edit : with pets out but not activating them so without pets even less damage
This is actually what You can do just by holding down one button. You can literally put something heavy on LMB leave the room and still get over 80k.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pOBjX6xPw20
Except I held down one button wether it’s me or a “book” holding it down its 19k not 80k. It feels like people are saying these things because they hate the play style and want to mock it.
Were you doing it on an Iron Atronach dummy? Iron atronach dummy will give you extra buffs; when people talk about these crazy high 70k+ parses they're talking about it on that dummy - everyone (or at least, everyone comparing parses) uses the Iron Atro dummy for standardization purposes.Edited by CameraBeardThePirate on April 20, 2023 10:55PM0 -
isadoraisacat✭✭✭✭✭isadoraisacat wrote: »isadoraisacat wrote: »isadoraisacat wrote: »isadoraisacat wrote: »isadoraisacat wrote: »isadoraisacat wrote: »isadoraisacat wrote: »isadoraisacat wrote: »isadoraisacat wrote: »isadoraisacat wrote: »SerafinaWaterstar wrote: »I do not understand the devs reasoning - so what if the HA builds were reaching or in rare cases surpassing LA builds?
Where does it state that LA builds are the ‘sanctioned’ build?
This is not, as many have said previously, “Play how you like” 🤣
(And way to go to discriminate against those that find LA weaving/bar swapping difficult due to disabilities)
It says on the steam page basically play how you want. So I’d gather there is no developer determined set way to play. So I’d hope they would reconsider these changes.
Play how you want only means that there is various levels of content for different people.
Do you want to fish, you can do that. Do you want to pick flowers, you can do that too. PVP, Trials, solo content, overland questing, you can do all of that as well. You can pick the things you want to do, and do those things.
Play how you want DOES NOT mean that you can do all of those things with anything. You need to be properly equipped/prepared for them. You may want to fish, but you must have the necessary bait to do so. You may want to pick flowers, but certain CP and skill points are going to be necessary to be most efficient at it.
You can PVP, but if you don't equip yourself properly, you are not going to be effective.
Play how you want does not mean that whatever way you want to approach the different parts of content available are going to work. You can farm gear all you want, but it won't win you a ToT match or build your ToT deck. Just like being ill-equipped for PVE content isn't going to get you through that content.
That is all, it is available for you to do. But you still have to prepare yourself properly for it.
I don’t see a “play how you want as long as it’s weaving” in this anywhere.
This is not what we are talking about.
It says mix different armors and skills
Together for your own play style what is storm master / sergeant and oaken soul? And the associated dots we use with the build it’s all armors and skills. Seems like we are following zos meaning perfectly here with a HA build.
Mix any armors and skills. But if we can't agree that someone running Armor Master and Adept rider, and using only tank and healing skills, is going to be flat out awful in a DPS role in PVE content, then I really don't even know how to continue this conversation.
You can play any content you want, you can wear any set or no set at all. But you still need to make sure what you are wearing is effective for the content you want to do. It's that simple.
None of this even matters, because Storm Masters and Sergeant's will still be perfectly viable for vet content, including trials, next patch. But, you can also wear another set instead of Storm Masters and be just as viable. Because the DPs loss isn't that bad. It's not bad at all.
I even did some math in the other thread, I'll even add some more here.
On LIVE right now, on a Storm Master and Sergeants Oaken sorc build.
With pets out, but Zero skills being activated. Just holding the heavy attack button. The build does 29K DPS on a 3 million dummy. The base one, with no pen or debuffs. 29K DPS.
Activating skills bumps that up to 33K DPS. So, Heavy attacks+Storm Master +Sergeants+Shock enchant = 29K DPS.
That combo is roughly 87% of the 33K DPs parse.
So, a baseline of 29K DPS on that 3M with doing nothing but holding heavy attack. That portion of the parse is the only part that is losing damage. So let's say the doomsaying 20% amount that keeps getting thrown around, that means that portion will do 23.2K DPS + now the skills portion of the parse, you get 28.2K DPS, an overall 15% nerf to a full parse.
That 15% is worst case scenario, and as others have already shown, not the actual case. But even so, using your 25K limit, that 15% nerf is 21K damage.
Honestly, if people are going to reject a player for 21K DPS on a 3M dummy, they were going to reject you for 25K. Especially when a 29K parse on a 3M is possible without activating any skills and just heavy attacking.
At the same time, plenty of groups literally don't care as long as you aren't dying or not following mechanics.
Clearly the set up was affective we wouldn’t be here if it wasn’t the case.
[snip]
I am literally showing you the numbers from the oakenbuild I use and have saved in my armorer. I cleared VMA on it this morning for my best score ever, and I run it in vet trials.
The nerf in PTS is nothing of any import on the build. It will be fine post nerf and still be stronger than the average solo DPS setup.
If we really want to make a comparison, my two bar solo build also does vet content, including vet trials and dungeons, and barely does 22K DPS on the 3M dummy. This heavy attack build does 10K more DPS, and even after the nerf will still do at least 5K more DPS. And no-one has turned down my solo build for vet content because I know how to do the role and I don't try to do trifecta prog groups. I play with like-minded players. And if your build is doing 20K+ DPS on a 3M dummy, it is effective enough for all content in the game.
And I’m literally sharing my experiences that I’ve been bullied for using this build. I’ve been kicked out a group dungeons at the last boss and mocked.
I don’t know which dummy is 3m I’m referring to the standard skeleton dummy not the parsing high end one with all the buffs I never did that dummy as I don’t have one.
You can’t compare your self to me we are different people different players with different abilities different disabilities and different levels of experience.
The skeleton is the 3M. 3M refers to the health the dummy has.
Honestly, personal experiences and anecdotes are irrelevant. You get bullied for using the build. Find better groups to run the build with. I don't get bullied for using the build, because I run with like minded people. It's is an easy fix to make. Don't play the game with people who don't want to play it with you the way you want to play it.
In the case of this nerf, the only thing that matters are objective numbers. And objectively, oakensoul heavy builds are going to be fine, at all levels of play. And objectively, I can hold 1 single button down for 2 minutes just as much as you can on a heavy attack build. And objectively on an oakensorc build, doing so gives you 29K DPS on the 3M dummy, without pressing a single skill. This does not require effort, this does not require timing. This require clicking and holding a trigger or mouse button, which is the minimum requirement for a heavy attack builds functionality.
I can’t always “find better groups” I work 7 days a week. I have a family to care for. When I come on if people in guilds aren’t on and I need transmuted to progress my character I have to deal with random people to do what I need to do. Not everyone is just online at the same time.
Everyone’s experience is relevant.
That’s just a snide thing to say.
I’m aware 3m refers to the health of the dummy im saying i use the normal skeleton one and never used the one to use referring too.
I mean if you want me to record my self playing holding down one button and not doing the damage you say ? I can gladly do it. I’m up for the challenge does anyone have a 3m dummy I can borrow ?
Becuase I bet you it will take me like 10
Minutes or more to kill it with much less dps. If I struggle on the basic skeleton.
The normal skeleton is the only 3M skeleton. Or at the very least, that is exactly what I am talking about.
On a trial dummy, just holding heavy attack down and not using skills nets around 70 DPS on the same build.
Your results are in sir you can see at the end of this thread in a 5 mill dummy you are not correct.
So, here is where you assess your build and see why you aren't hitting that obtainable number.
What blue CP slottables are you running?
I know you said your gear isn't fully upgraded, but that isn't going to do all that much. I am assuming you have the full sergeant and storm master setup. What is the other 1 piece set you are wearing, slimecraw is the best choice here. And your Mundus?
Of the two 5 piece sets, which are you running on your body and which on your jewelry. It makes a difference if the heavy set is on your body.
I’m using slimcraw as the monster helm.
Im using all the slottables recommended at lower amounts of points as I’m still low ep. All my gear is purple except for my staff which has a bad trait on it. 2 pieces have only divines on them. And I’m using the thief.
Once again the point is if they cut my build short farming for transmutes to make my build better will be much harder.
2 farming for xp
Will less easy due to not being able to take on world bosses anymore or things That gain more xp.
I’m well aware my build isn’t done… but the set up is by the book exactly what it needs to be for this build.
I just need more cp to add more points and to gold out my gear with better traits.
And yes 5 pieces of seargets and storm master plus slim craw with oakensoul.
And another point is why all this changes and push now if it will kick me back to this level say I gain 28k form these changes wil be knocked back down to 25 k anyway 🤷🏻♂️ so all this work to stay where in at and not progress.
I assure you, hitting 24K dps and losing 2-3K isn't going to impact your ability to do any of those things. As I already said, my normal build hits less than your incomplete build and it literally does all content and solos vet dungeons, trifecta Vateshran speed run craglorn vet trials, hardmodes, DLC vet dungeons and trials. All with less DPS. 20K DPS is more than enough for content in this game unless you are score pushing.
Latest if you claim 20k is enough why are people so worried about HA attack doing more damage it should matter than.
I mean, look at my post history of the last few months of literally defending heavy attack oaken builds as fine.
The only time I had a problem with oakensoul was when it was released and it was broken in PVP and players could chain drop storm atros. Since they fixed that, zero complaints and in fact defense of them.
But let's be clear, on live right now, they truly are outperforming. I just scored the best score for Vet Maelstrom I have ever scored on my sorc using this build, with a tenth of the effort it takes my solo build to do the same content. It is, objectively, pretty absurd.
But, I also think it has enough drawbacks that it makes it ok. Simultaneously, I can see that it needed a reasonable adjustment. And frankly, this seems reasonable. A small nerf to empower and a set adjustment. Set adjustments happen all the time. And, let's be real here, when a set is performing so well that it is practically a requirement on a build, it is ALWAYS bound to get nerfed. There are other sets though, that will work just as well, that didn't get nerfed. Probably just about the same DPS that you are getting now with those sets and those sets don't rely on a critting fully charged heavy attack to work.
I understand what you are saying but you have to understand I have physical limitations and zero experience with mmo style of play. So comparing you to me is like comparing a black belt to a white belt.
I’m still working on my build this set back just makes doing that harder is my initial point. That’s all.
I think being nerfed just never feels good. Especially for everyone who isn’t the very small minority of top tier players these decisions seem to be based around. It’s like being 50 in a marathon of 100 people and being knocked down and being told it’s okay, just sprint to to get back to 50th. Easy to say from the vantage point of those who aren’t nerfed or who actively desired these nerfs based on numbers being thrown out that were accomplished by a tiny minutiae of the player base.
I will concede that the YouTube video posted is kinda dumb lol (meaning I’m surprised at this much dps for just holding down a button). Has there been any nerfs since 4 months ago or is that where we are now? Again I’m not playing sorc and only got this last week.
Top tier players are not even running with this setup so it's hardly a decision based around them. It's mid and low tier players that still want to play something else that got affected the most by oakensoul HA setups.
No nerfs since then. You can still get over 80k on live server by pressing 1 button.
Ty for the info. I don’t really think just holding your finger down for that much and doing nothing else is great game design so something to consider.
@isodora. It’s awful but I hope you report anyone who lets you play until the last boss and then vote kicks you. This happened to me last week when I pigged into a 3 man premade. One of them went afk none of them said anything so I pulled and killed a boss with the tank. The healer then spent the rest of the dungeon emoting and calling me names - odd how her keyboard worked then but not to say they were afk and not to pull a boss. Then I got booted at the final boss. I reported but was to,d I’ll never know if any action was taken or not due to policy, but I like to think they got at least a warning.
Unfortunately I didn’t get their names I was too upset to think straight.
As for just Holding the button. I still have a rotation I keep my dots going my pets activated and “weave” then between each heavy attack. It’s not just doing nothing. I’m very skilled with tactical stuff my issue is my actual hands are not optimal due to injury and and carpal tunnel. If I didn’t have these issues I wouldn’t mind a one bar rotation with more dots to manage. My only real issue with eso combat is the bar swap it’s the one thing I never liked doing. But I CAN weave I just can’t do it for long without pain.
I’m sorry to hear about your hand pain and I completely understand. This is supposed to be a fun game and enjoyable relief at the end of the day. I also weave in my dots when I play this and am also not getting those numbers. Lol. Maybe I just just hold a button unstead haha. You mentioned still having some work to do with traits and maybe with those and some more cp this will still be fun enough if the nerf moves ahead. If it does we will have to accept and hopefully still have fun I’d the change isn’t too dire.
Yeah my main issue is my staff has a really useless trait I’m confident if I can recon this with precise as the trait it will do a lot more damage. I’m only cp614 so I have. A lot of cp points to go to add more damage. And I need to put divines on all my gear save for 2 and make my gear gold. I actually folded out my staff which was dumb as I should have waited until reconned it with a new trait.
.1 -
AScarlato✭✭✭✭✭isadoraisacat wrote: »isadoraisacat wrote: »isadoraisacat wrote: »isadoraisacat wrote: »isadoraisacat wrote: »isadoraisacat wrote: »isadoraisacat wrote: »isadoraisacat wrote: »isadoraisacat wrote: »isadoraisacat wrote: »isadoraisacat wrote: »SerafinaWaterstar wrote: »I do not understand the devs reasoning - so what if the HA builds were reaching or in rare cases surpassing LA builds?
Where does it state that LA builds are the ‘sanctioned’ build?
This is not, as many have said previously, “Play how you like” 🤣
(And way to go to discriminate against those that find LA weaving/bar swapping difficult due to disabilities)
It says on the steam page basically play how you want. So I’d gather there is no developer determined set way to play. So I’d hope they would reconsider these changes.
Play how you want only means that there is various levels of content for different people.
Do you want to fish, you can do that. Do you want to pick flowers, you can do that too. PVP, Trials, solo content, overland questing, you can do all of that as well. You can pick the things you want to do, and do those things.
Play how you want DOES NOT mean that you can do all of those things with anything. You need to be properly equipped/prepared for them. You may want to fish, but you must have the necessary bait to do so. You may want to pick flowers, but certain CP and skill points are going to be necessary to be most efficient at it.
You can PVP, but if you don't equip yourself properly, you are not going to be effective.
Play how you want does not mean that whatever way you want to approach the different parts of content available are going to work. You can farm gear all you want, but it won't win you a ToT match or build your ToT deck. Just like being ill-equipped for PVE content isn't going to get you through that content.
That is all, it is available for you to do. But you still have to prepare yourself properly for it.
I don’t see a “play how you want as long as it’s weaving” in this anywhere.
This is not what we are talking about.
It says mix different armors and skills
Together for your own play style what is storm master / sergeant and oaken soul? And the associated dots we use with the build it’s all armors and skills. Seems like we are following zos meaning perfectly here with a HA build.
Mix any armors and skills. But if we can't agree that someone running Armor Master and Adept rider, and using only tank and healing skills, is going to be flat out awful in a DPS role in PVE content, then I really don't even know how to continue this conversation.
You can play any content you want, you can wear any set or no set at all. But you still need to make sure what you are wearing is effective for the content you want to do. It's that simple.
None of this even matters, because Storm Masters and Sergeant's will still be perfectly viable for vet content, including trials, next patch. But, you can also wear another set instead of Storm Masters and be just as viable. Because the DPs loss isn't that bad. It's not bad at all.
I even did some math in the other thread, I'll even add some more here.
On LIVE right now, on a Storm Master and Sergeants Oaken sorc build.
With pets out, but Zero skills being activated. Just holding the heavy attack button. The build does 29K DPS on a 3 million dummy. The base one, with no pen or debuffs. 29K DPS.
Activating skills bumps that up to 33K DPS. So, Heavy attacks+Storm Master +Sergeants+Shock enchant = 29K DPS.
That combo is roughly 87% of the 33K DPs parse.
So, a baseline of 29K DPS on that 3M with doing nothing but holding heavy attack. That portion of the parse is the only part that is losing damage. So let's say the doomsaying 20% amount that keeps getting thrown around, that means that portion will do 23.2K DPS + now the skills portion of the parse, you get 28.2K DPS, an overall 15% nerf to a full parse.
That 15% is worst case scenario, and as others have already shown, not the actual case. But even so, using your 25K limit, that 15% nerf is 21K damage.
Honestly, if people are going to reject a player for 21K DPS on a 3M dummy, they were going to reject you for 25K. Especially when a 29K parse on a 3M is possible without activating any skills and just heavy attacking.
At the same time, plenty of groups literally don't care as long as you aren't dying or not following mechanics.
Clearly the set up was affective we wouldn’t be here if it wasn’t the case.
[snip]
I am literally showing you the numbers from the oakenbuild I use and have saved in my armorer. I cleared VMA on it this morning for my best score ever, and I run it in vet trials.
The nerf in PTS is nothing of any import on the build. It will be fine post nerf and still be stronger than the average solo DPS setup.
If we really want to make a comparison, my two bar solo build also does vet content, including vet trials and dungeons, and barely does 22K DPS on the 3M dummy. This heavy attack build does 10K more DPS, and even after the nerf will still do at least 5K more DPS. And no-one has turned down my solo build for vet content because I know how to do the role and I don't try to do trifecta prog groups. I play with like-minded players. And if your build is doing 20K+ DPS on a 3M dummy, it is effective enough for all content in the game.
And I’m literally sharing my experiences that I’ve been bullied for using this build. I’ve been kicked out a group dungeons at the last boss and mocked.
I don’t know which dummy is 3m I’m referring to the standard skeleton dummy not the parsing high end one with all the buffs I never did that dummy as I don’t have one.
You can’t compare your self to me we are different people different players with different abilities different disabilities and different levels of experience.
The skeleton is the 3M. 3M refers to the health the dummy has.
Honestly, personal experiences and anecdotes are irrelevant. You get bullied for using the build. Find better groups to run the build with. I don't get bullied for using the build, because I run with like minded people. It's is an easy fix to make. Don't play the game with people who don't want to play it with you the way you want to play it.
In the case of this nerf, the only thing that matters are objective numbers. And objectively, oakensoul heavy builds are going to be fine, at all levels of play. And objectively, I can hold 1 single button down for 2 minutes just as much as you can on a heavy attack build. And objectively on an oakensorc build, doing so gives you 29K DPS on the 3M dummy, without pressing a single skill. This does not require effort, this does not require timing. This require clicking and holding a trigger or mouse button, which is the minimum requirement for a heavy attack builds functionality.
I can’t always “find better groups” I work 7 days a week. I have a family to care for. When I come on if people in guilds aren’t on and I need transmuted to progress my character I have to deal with random people to do what I need to do. Not everyone is just online at the same time.
Everyone’s experience is relevant.
That’s just a snide thing to say.
I’m aware 3m refers to the health of the dummy im saying i use the normal skeleton one and never used the one to use referring too.
I mean if you want me to record my self playing holding down one button and not doing the damage you say ? I can gladly do it. I’m up for the challenge does anyone have a 3m dummy I can borrow ?
Becuase I bet you it will take me like 10
Minutes or more to kill it with much less dps. If I struggle on the basic skeleton.
The normal skeleton is the only 3M skeleton. Or at the very least, that is exactly what I am talking about.
On a trial dummy, just holding heavy attack down and not using skills nets around 70 DPS on the same build.
Your results are in sir you can see at the end of this thread in a 5 mill dummy you are not correct.
So, here is where you assess your build and see why you aren't hitting that obtainable number.
What blue CP slottables are you running?
I know you said your gear isn't fully upgraded, but that isn't going to do all that much. I am assuming you have the full sergeant and storm master setup. What is the other 1 piece set you are wearing, slimecraw is the best choice here. And your Mundus?
Of the two 5 piece sets, which are you running on your body and which on your jewelry. It makes a difference if the heavy set is on your body.
I’m using slimcraw as the monster helm.
Im using all the slottables recommended at lower amounts of points as I’m still low ep. All my gear is purple except for my staff which has a bad trait on it. 2 pieces have only divines on them. And I’m using the thief.
Once again the point is if they cut my build short farming for transmutes to make my build better will be much harder.
2 farming for xp
Will less easy due to not being able to take on world bosses anymore or things That gain more xp.
I’m well aware my build isn’t done… but the set up is by the book exactly what it needs to be for this build.
I just need more cp to add more points and to gold out my gear with better traits.
And yes 5 pieces of seargets and storm master plus slim craw with oakensoul.
And another point is why all this changes and push now if it will kick me back to this level say I gain 28k form these changes wil be knocked back down to 25 k anyway 🤷🏻♂️ so all this work to stay where in at and not progress.
I assure you, hitting 24K dps and losing 2-3K isn't going to impact your ability to do any of those things. As I already said, my normal build hits less than your incomplete build and it literally does all content and solos vet dungeons, trifecta Vateshran speed run craglorn vet trials, hardmodes, DLC vet dungeons and trials. All with less DPS. 20K DPS is more than enough for content in this game unless you are score pushing.
Latest if you claim 20k is enough why are people so worried about HA attack doing more damage it should matter than.
I mean, look at my post history of the last few months of literally defending heavy attack oaken builds as fine.
The only time I had a problem with oakensoul was when it was released and it was broken in PVP and players could chain drop storm atros. Since they fixed that, zero complaints and in fact defense of them.
But let's be clear, on live right now, they truly are outperforming. I just scored the best score for Vet Maelstrom I have ever scored on my sorc using this build, with a tenth of the effort it takes my solo build to do the same content. It is, objectively, pretty absurd.
But, I also think it has enough drawbacks that it makes it ok. Simultaneously, I can see that it needed a reasonable adjustment. And frankly, this seems reasonable. A small nerf to empower and a set adjustment. Set adjustments happen all the time. And, let's be real here, when a set is performing so well that it is practically a requirement on a build, it is ALWAYS bound to get nerfed. There are other sets though, that will work just as well, that didn't get nerfed. Probably just about the same DPS that you are getting now with those sets and those sets don't rely on a critting fully charged heavy attack to work.
I understand what you are saying but you have to understand I have physical limitations and zero experience with mmo style of play. So comparing you to me is like comparing a black belt to a white belt.
I’m still working on my build this set back just makes doing that harder is my initial point. That’s all.
I think being nerfed just never feels good. Especially for everyone who isn’t the very small minority of top tier players these decisions seem to be based around. It’s like being 50 in a marathon of 100 people and being knocked down and being told it’s okay, just sprint to to get back to 50th. Easy to say from the vantage point of those who aren’t nerfed or who actively desired these nerfs based on numbers being thrown out that were accomplished by a tiny minutiae of the player base.
I will concede that the YouTube video posted is kinda dumb lol (meaning I’m surprised at this much dps for just holding down a button). Has there been any nerfs since 4 months ago or is that where we are now? Again I’m not playing sorc and only got this last week.
Top tier players are not even running with this setup so it's hardly a decision based around them. It's mid and low tier players that still want to play something else that got affected the most by oakensoul HA setups.
No nerfs since then. You can still get over 80k on live server by pressing 1 button.
Ty for the info. I don’t really think just holding your finger down for that much and doing nothing else is great game design so something to consider.
@isodora. It’s awful but I hope you report anyone who lets you play until the last boss and then vote kicks you. This happened to me last week when I pigged into a 3 man premade. One of them went afk none of them said anything so I pulled and killed a boss with the tank. The healer then spent the rest of the dungeon emoting and calling me names - odd how her keyboard worked then but not to say they were afk and not to pull a boss. Then I got booted at the final boss. I reported but was to,d I’ll never know if any action was taken or not due to policy, but I like to think they got at least a warning.
Unfortunately I didn’t get their names I was too upset to think straight.
As for just Holding the button. I still have a rotation I keep my dots going my pets activated and “weave” then between each heavy attack. It’s not just doing nothing. I’m very skilled with tactical stuff my issue is my actual hands are not optimal due to injury and and carpal tunnel. If I didn’t have these issues I wouldn’t mind a one bar rotation with more dots to manage. My only real issue with eso combat is the bar swap it’s the one thing I never liked doing. But I CAN weave I just can’t do it for long without pain.
I’m sorry to hear about your hand pain and I completely understand. This is supposed to be a fun game and enjoyable relief at the end of the day. I also weave in my dots when I play this and am also not getting those numbers. Lol. Maybe I just just hold a button unstead haha. You mentioned still having some work to do with traits and maybe with those and some more cp this will still be fun enough if the nerf moves ahead. If it does we will have to accept and hopefully still have fun I’d the change isn’t too dire.
Yeah my main issue is my staff has a really useless trait I’m confident if I can recon this with precise as the trait it will do a lot more damage. I’m only cp614 so I have. A lot of cp points to go to add more damage. And I need to put divines on all my gear save for 2 and make my gear gold. I actually folded out my staff which was dumb as I should have waited until reconned it with a new trait.
.
I think if the nerf ends up being small with those changes this will still be strong enough to enjoy the game. I would rather it not be nerfed, but if the op (I honestly don’t even know what HA thread I’m in anymore lol but the one with the numbers) is right, there is still hope to get more fun with this build.Edited by AScarlato on April 20, 2023 10:58PM1 -
isadoraisacat✭✭✭✭✭CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »isadoraisacat wrote: »isadoraisacat wrote: »isadoraisacat wrote: »isadoraisacat wrote: »isadoraisacat wrote: »CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »isadoraisacat wrote: »Wow, I'm pleasantly surprised by the overwhelming number of replies! Thank you to everyone who took the time to share their thoughts on this topic. It's great to see so many insightful comments.
Hopefully, ZOS will take note of the community's concerns and reconsider their proposed changes to Storm Master and Empower before they go live with Necrom. I've noticed that there have been some misunderstandings regarding the extent of the nerf, with some suggesting it's only up to around 6%. However, I want to clarify that the numbers I provided earlier are not mere estimations or guesses, but actual results obtained from testing DPS in combat. So here are the accurate numbers once again.
SM Live vs PTS
-23.99% max DPS (-17.82% avg DPS)
The above DPS loss will be even worse in actual combat scenarios, because Storm Master uptimes (and thus DPS) are likely to decrease even further. This is due to the fact that if a player misses the 3-second window to deal critical damage (which is common since most HA builds have a critical chance of around 40-50%), the Storm Master buff falls off.
By the way, it's worth noting that the Undaunted Infiltrator set is not a viable alternative to Storm Master. In fact, it still falls short in comparison. Here's why:
SM Live vs Undaunted Infiltrator (UI) PTS
-24.96% max DPS (-20.64% avg DPS)
If you're interested in verifying these test results for yourself, it's easy to do so by logging into the PTS. Here are some more details on how to replicate the experiment:
Test Assumptions:- The purpose of this test is to evaluate how the proposed changes affect Heavy Attack DPS, so we are only interested in sets and abilities that are specific to Heavy Attack builds. Therefore, we will exclude sets and abilities that are not relevant to this test, such as Pillar of Nirn and Volatile Familiar.
- To minimize confounding factors and isolate the variables under test, we need to control for various factors such as differences in builds, classes, player skill level, and random variations caused by Critical Rating and Critical Damage. The controlled variables for this experiment are:
- The combat ruleset (live vs PTS)
- The 5-piece body set used (Storm Master and Undaunted Infiltrator).
Body
1x L Slimecraw
1x Sergeant (heavy)
5x Strom Master or Undaunted Infiltrator (both medium)
Bar & Accessories
Sergeant's Mail (lightning, neck, ring)
Oakensoul Ring
Same abilities, attributes, CPs, mundus, and target dummy for every test build.
To minimize the impact of player-executed rotation on the test results, we used Heavy Attack weaving as the rotation for this experiment. The rotation used was as follows:- Wall
- Heavy Attack
- Heavy Attack
- Heavy Attack
- Heavy Attack
Results - see the beginning of this post (for details please see the image)
TL;DR
To summarize:
Based on the data collected, it appears that the proposed changes will result in a significant nerf to the maximum achievable Heavy Attack damage, with a reduction of approximately -24%. It's important to note that this test was conducted on a stationary target. In actual combat scenarios, Storm Master uptimes (and thus DPS) are likely to decrease even further. This is due to the fact that if a player misses the 3-second window to deal critical damage (which is common since most HA builds have a critical chance of around 40-50%), the Storm Master buff falls off.
I don’t think people realize how deadly of a hit this is giving to ha builds. I think it may render some of our builds for us low dps solo players useless.
I guess it’s back to sucking wind and doing quests with as little combat as possible now and not being able to use all the content I pay for. Unless they review these things and decide not to move forward with this.
Personally I was happy with my main character the dps I was getting for now and the content I was able to do because of it it (even tho it still needs a ton of work I was Still is a much better place I’d never reach other wise without this ).
Sorry, but the test you quoted is not accurate. One can't test the DPS loss like that because it will not be an accurate assessment on the impact of the build. You need to test the entire build or the numbers will be greatly skewed.
When testing a full build on PTS vs Live, you only see a 6% damage loss. This is because, while the nerf to Storm Master's may impact your HA damage by 20% or so, wearing it in tandem with other sets will mitigate that loss. HA damage also only accounts for around 70% of the DPS of a HA build, so your overall dps is not impacted by 20% like the quoted test states.
You can check my post in the PTS forum for an accurate comparison between full parses.
Oh ok. Well for someone like me who is only hitting 25k dps half finished with their build it’s a massive hit to me and will further make it harder to finish my build that’s already been nerfed.
It’s almost like you are defending the changes because it’s what you wanted it. Trust me I’ll never be able to out parse you lol
It’s not my goal. I was shooting for 30-40 k max and I’m only at 25k I’m striving to focus on the solo arenas and many people like me aren’t hitting high dps or even affect your groups what so ever.
Make a parse on 21M trial dummy not 3/6M one. It gives more reliable starting point to know where are You at with Your DPS.
I unfortunately don’t have one and my guild as far as I know doesn’t have one either.
You can teleport to the house of someone who have one if it's an open house. Just type this command in chat /script JumpToHouse("@house owner ID") and You will be able to teleport to the house of someone who have 21M trial dummy. So now just ask around for someone on Your server who have free to visit house with a trial dummy. There is plenty of people like that.
I’ll ask I don’t know anyone who has one and i do not believe my guilds have them.
But I’m telling your right now I’m not going to be holding down one button slaying gods it will be a very low and sad number. You are reallY overestimating it.
It's not that like have any expectations towards Your DPS. I just said that trial dummy is a more reliable source of data. You can also ask around for people like that in zone chats.
Just did a target blood nignt and got 19k dps
Once again this is holding down just the one button no dots. People are gravely over estimating the dps
Edit : with pets out but not activating them so without pets even less damage
This is actually what You can do just by holding down one button. You can literally put something heavy on LMB leave the room and still get over 80k.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pOBjX6xPw20
Except I held down one button wether it’s me or a “book” holding it down its 19k not 80k. It feels like people are saying these things because they hate the play style and want to mock it.
Were you doing it on an Iron Atronach dummy? Iron atronach dummy will give you extra buffs; when people talk about these crazy high 70k+ parses they're talking about it on that dummy - everyone (or at least, everyone comparing parses) uses the Iron Atro dummy for standardization purposes.
No normal regular dummies no special buff ones I don’t even know anyone who has those to try0 -
CameraBeardThePirate✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭isadoraisacat wrote: »isadoraisacat wrote: »isadoraisacat wrote: »isadoraisacat wrote: »isadoraisacat wrote: »isadoraisacat wrote: »isadoraisacat wrote: »isadoraisacat wrote: »isadoraisacat wrote: »isadoraisacat wrote: »isadoraisacat wrote: »SerafinaWaterstar wrote: »I do not understand the devs reasoning - so what if the HA builds were reaching or in rare cases surpassing LA builds?
Where does it state that LA builds are the ‘sanctioned’ build?
This is not, as many have said previously, “Play how you like” 🤣
(And way to go to discriminate against those that find LA weaving/bar swapping difficult due to disabilities)
It says on the steam page basically play how you want. So I’d gather there is no developer determined set way to play. So I’d hope they would reconsider these changes.
Play how you want only means that there is various levels of content for different people.
Do you want to fish, you can do that. Do you want to pick flowers, you can do that too. PVP, Trials, solo content, overland questing, you can do all of that as well. You can pick the things you want to do, and do those things.
Play how you want DOES NOT mean that you can do all of those things with anything. You need to be properly equipped/prepared for them. You may want to fish, but you must have the necessary bait to do so. You may want to pick flowers, but certain CP and skill points are going to be necessary to be most efficient at it.
You can PVP, but if you don't equip yourself properly, you are not going to be effective.
Play how you want does not mean that whatever way you want to approach the different parts of content available are going to work. You can farm gear all you want, but it won't win you a ToT match or build your ToT deck. Just like being ill-equipped for PVE content isn't going to get you through that content.
That is all, it is available for you to do. But you still have to prepare yourself properly for it.
I don’t see a “play how you want as long as it’s weaving” in this anywhere.
This is not what we are talking about.
It says mix different armors and skills
Together for your own play style what is storm master / sergeant and oaken soul? And the associated dots we use with the build it’s all armors and skills. Seems like we are following zos meaning perfectly here with a HA build.
Mix any armors and skills. But if we can't agree that someone running Armor Master and Adept rider, and using only tank and healing skills, is going to be flat out awful in a DPS role in PVE content, then I really don't even know how to continue this conversation.
You can play any content you want, you can wear any set or no set at all. But you still need to make sure what you are wearing is effective for the content you want to do. It's that simple.
None of this even matters, because Storm Masters and Sergeant's will still be perfectly viable for vet content, including trials, next patch. But, you can also wear another set instead of Storm Masters and be just as viable. Because the DPs loss isn't that bad. It's not bad at all.
I even did some math in the other thread, I'll even add some more here.
On LIVE right now, on a Storm Master and Sergeants Oaken sorc build.
With pets out, but Zero skills being activated. Just holding the heavy attack button. The build does 29K DPS on a 3 million dummy. The base one, with no pen or debuffs. 29K DPS.
Activating skills bumps that up to 33K DPS. So, Heavy attacks+Storm Master +Sergeants+Shock enchant = 29K DPS.
That combo is roughly 87% of the 33K DPs parse.
So, a baseline of 29K DPS on that 3M with doing nothing but holding heavy attack. That portion of the parse is the only part that is losing damage. So let's say the doomsaying 20% amount that keeps getting thrown around, that means that portion will do 23.2K DPS + now the skills portion of the parse, you get 28.2K DPS, an overall 15% nerf to a full parse.
That 15% is worst case scenario, and as others have already shown, not the actual case. But even so, using your 25K limit, that 15% nerf is 21K damage.
Honestly, if people are going to reject a player for 21K DPS on a 3M dummy, they were going to reject you for 25K. Especially when a 29K parse on a 3M is possible without activating any skills and just heavy attacking.
At the same time, plenty of groups literally don't care as long as you aren't dying or not following mechanics.
Clearly the set up was affective we wouldn’t be here if it wasn’t the case.
[snip]
I am literally showing you the numbers from the oakenbuild I use and have saved in my armorer. I cleared VMA on it this morning for my best score ever, and I run it in vet trials.
The nerf in PTS is nothing of any import on the build. It will be fine post nerf and still be stronger than the average solo DPS setup.
If we really want to make a comparison, my two bar solo build also does vet content, including vet trials and dungeons, and barely does 22K DPS on the 3M dummy. This heavy attack build does 10K more DPS, and even after the nerf will still do at least 5K more DPS. And no-one has turned down my solo build for vet content because I know how to do the role and I don't try to do trifecta prog groups. I play with like-minded players. And if your build is doing 20K+ DPS on a 3M dummy, it is effective enough for all content in the game.
And I’m literally sharing my experiences that I’ve been bullied for using this build. I’ve been kicked out a group dungeons at the last boss and mocked.
I don’t know which dummy is 3m I’m referring to the standard skeleton dummy not the parsing high end one with all the buffs I never did that dummy as I don’t have one.
You can’t compare your self to me we are different people different players with different abilities different disabilities and different levels of experience.
The skeleton is the 3M. 3M refers to the health the dummy has.
Honestly, personal experiences and anecdotes are irrelevant. You get bullied for using the build. Find better groups to run the build with. I don't get bullied for using the build, because I run with like minded people. It's is an easy fix to make. Don't play the game with people who don't want to play it with you the way you want to play it.
In the case of this nerf, the only thing that matters are objective numbers. And objectively, oakensoul heavy builds are going to be fine, at all levels of play. And objectively, I can hold 1 single button down for 2 minutes just as much as you can on a heavy attack build. And objectively on an oakensorc build, doing so gives you 29K DPS on the 3M dummy, without pressing a single skill. This does not require effort, this does not require timing. This require clicking and holding a trigger or mouse button, which is the minimum requirement for a heavy attack builds functionality.
I can’t always “find better groups” I work 7 days a week. I have a family to care for. When I come on if people in guilds aren’t on and I need transmuted to progress my character I have to deal with random people to do what I need to do. Not everyone is just online at the same time.
Everyone’s experience is relevant.
That’s just a snide thing to say.
I’m aware 3m refers to the health of the dummy im saying i use the normal skeleton one and never used the one to use referring too.
I mean if you want me to record my self playing holding down one button and not doing the damage you say ? I can gladly do it. I’m up for the challenge does anyone have a 3m dummy I can borrow ?
Becuase I bet you it will take me like 10
Minutes or more to kill it with much less dps. If I struggle on the basic skeleton.
The normal skeleton is the only 3M skeleton. Or at the very least, that is exactly what I am talking about.
On a trial dummy, just holding heavy attack down and not using skills nets around 70 DPS on the same build.
Your results are in sir you can see at the end of this thread in a 5 mill dummy you are not correct.
So, here is where you assess your build and see why you aren't hitting that obtainable number.
What blue CP slottables are you running?
I know you said your gear isn't fully upgraded, but that isn't going to do all that much. I am assuming you have the full sergeant and storm master setup. What is the other 1 piece set you are wearing, slimecraw is the best choice here. And your Mundus?
Of the two 5 piece sets, which are you running on your body and which on your jewelry. It makes a difference if the heavy set is on your body.
I’m using slimcraw as the monster helm.
Im using all the slottables recommended at lower amounts of points as I’m still low ep. All my gear is purple except for my staff which has a bad trait on it. 2 pieces have only divines on them. And I’m using the thief.
Once again the point is if they cut my build short farming for transmutes to make my build better will be much harder.
2 farming for xp
Will less easy due to not being able to take on world bosses anymore or things That gain more xp.
I’m well aware my build isn’t done… but the set up is by the book exactly what it needs to be for this build.
I just need more cp to add more points and to gold out my gear with better traits.
And yes 5 pieces of seargets and storm master plus slim craw with oakensoul.
And another point is why all this changes and push now if it will kick me back to this level say I gain 28k form these changes wil be knocked back down to 25 k anyway 🤷🏻♂️ so all this work to stay where in at and not progress.
I assure you, hitting 24K dps and losing 2-3K isn't going to impact your ability to do any of those things. As I already said, my normal build hits less than your incomplete build and it literally does all content and solos vet dungeons, trifecta Vateshran speed run craglorn vet trials, hardmodes, DLC vet dungeons and trials. All with less DPS. 20K DPS is more than enough for content in this game unless you are score pushing.
Latest if you claim 20k is enough why are people so worried about HA attack doing more damage it should matter than.
I mean, look at my post history of the last few months of literally defending heavy attack oaken builds as fine.
The only time I had a problem with oakensoul was when it was released and it was broken in PVP and players could chain drop storm atros. Since they fixed that, zero complaints and in fact defense of them.
But let's be clear, on live right now, they truly are outperforming. I just scored the best score for Vet Maelstrom I have ever scored on my sorc using this build, with a tenth of the effort it takes my solo build to do the same content. It is, objectively, pretty absurd.
But, I also think it has enough drawbacks that it makes it ok. Simultaneously, I can see that it needed a reasonable adjustment. And frankly, this seems reasonable. A small nerf to empower and a set adjustment. Set adjustments happen all the time. And, let's be real here, when a set is performing so well that it is practically a requirement on a build, it is ALWAYS bound to get nerfed. There are other sets though, that will work just as well, that didn't get nerfed. Probably just about the same DPS that you are getting now with those sets and those sets don't rely on a critting fully charged heavy attack to work.
I understand what you are saying but you have to understand I have physical limitations and zero experience with mmo style of play. So comparing you to me is like comparing a black belt to a white belt.
I’m still working on my build this set back just makes doing that harder is my initial point. That’s all.
I think being nerfed just never feels good. Especially for everyone who isn’t the very small minority of top tier players these decisions seem to be based around. It’s like being 50 in a marathon of 100 people and being knocked down and being told it’s okay, just sprint to to get back to 50th. Easy to say from the vantage point of those who aren’t nerfed or who actively desired these nerfs based on numbers being thrown out that were accomplished by a tiny minutiae of the player base.
I will concede that the YouTube video posted is kinda dumb lol (meaning I’m surprised at this much dps for just holding down a button). Has there been any nerfs since 4 months ago or is that where we are now? Again I’m not playing sorc and only got this last week.
Top tier players are not even running with this setup so it's hardly a decision based around them. It's mid and low tier players that still want to play something else that got affected the most by oakensoul HA setups.
No nerfs since then. You can still get over 80k on live server by pressing 1 button.
Ty for the info. I don’t really think just holding your finger down for that much and doing nothing else is great game design so something to consider.
@isodora. It’s awful but I hope you report anyone who lets you play until the last boss and then vote kicks you. This happened to me last week when I pigged into a 3 man premade. One of them went afk none of them said anything so I pulled and killed a boss with the tank. The healer then spent the rest of the dungeon emoting and calling me names - odd how her keyboard worked then but not to say they were afk and not to pull a boss. Then I got booted at the final boss. I reported but was to,d I’ll never know if any action was taken or not due to policy, but I like to think they got at least a warning.
Unfortunately I didn’t get their names I was too upset to think straight.
As for just Holding the button. I still have a rotation I keep my dots going my pets activated and “weave” then between each heavy attack. It’s not just doing nothing. I’m very skilled with tactical stuff my issue is my actual hands are not optimal due to injury and and carpal tunnel. If I didn’t have these issues I wouldn’t mind a one bar rotation with more dots to manage. My only real issue with eso combat is the bar swap it’s the one thing I never liked doing. But I CAN weave I just can’t do it for long without pain.
I’m sorry to hear about your hand pain and I completely understand. This is supposed to be a fun game and enjoyable relief at the end of the day. I also weave in my dots when I play this and am also not getting those numbers. Lol. Maybe I just just hold a button unstead haha. You mentioned still having some work to do with traits and maybe with those and some more cp this will still be fun enough if the nerf moves ahead. If it does we will have to accept and hopefully still have fun I’d the change isn’t too dire.
Yeah my main issue is my staff has a really useless trait I’m confident if I can recon this with precise as the trait it will do a lot more damage. I’m only cp614 so I have. A lot of cp points to go to add more damage. And I need to put divines on all my gear save for 2 and make my gear gold. I actually folded out my staff which was dumb as I should have waited until reconned it with a new trait.
.
Just as a heads up in case you weren't aware; some people get really caught up in Golding out all your gear, but as long as your enchants and weapons are gold, the rest can be purple and the net loss is very small. If you don't have the gold mats or the time to farm them, just make your weapons and enchants gold and call it good.3 -
CameraBeardThePirate✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭isadoraisacat wrote: »CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »isadoraisacat wrote: »isadoraisacat wrote: »isadoraisacat wrote: »isadoraisacat wrote: »isadoraisacat wrote: »CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »isadoraisacat wrote: »Wow, I'm pleasantly surprised by the overwhelming number of replies! Thank you to everyone who took the time to share their thoughts on this topic. It's great to see so many insightful comments.
Hopefully, ZOS will take note of the community's concerns and reconsider their proposed changes to Storm Master and Empower before they go live with Necrom. I've noticed that there have been some misunderstandings regarding the extent of the nerf, with some suggesting it's only up to around 6%. However, I want to clarify that the numbers I provided earlier are not mere estimations or guesses, but actual results obtained from testing DPS in combat. So here are the accurate numbers once again.
SM Live vs PTS
-23.99% max DPS (-17.82% avg DPS)
The above DPS loss will be even worse in actual combat scenarios, because Storm Master uptimes (and thus DPS) are likely to decrease even further. This is due to the fact that if a player misses the 3-second window to deal critical damage (which is common since most HA builds have a critical chance of around 40-50%), the Storm Master buff falls off.
By the way, it's worth noting that the Undaunted Infiltrator set is not a viable alternative to Storm Master. In fact, it still falls short in comparison. Here's why:
SM Live vs Undaunted Infiltrator (UI) PTS
-24.96% max DPS (-20.64% avg DPS)
If you're interested in verifying these test results for yourself, it's easy to do so by logging into the PTS. Here are some more details on how to replicate the experiment:
Test Assumptions:- The purpose of this test is to evaluate how the proposed changes affect Heavy Attack DPS, so we are only interested in sets and abilities that are specific to Heavy Attack builds. Therefore, we will exclude sets and abilities that are not relevant to this test, such as Pillar of Nirn and Volatile Familiar.
- To minimize confounding factors and isolate the variables under test, we need to control for various factors such as differences in builds, classes, player skill level, and random variations caused by Critical Rating and Critical Damage. The controlled variables for this experiment are:
- The combat ruleset (live vs PTS)
- The 5-piece body set used (Storm Master and Undaunted Infiltrator).
Body
1x L Slimecraw
1x Sergeant (heavy)
5x Strom Master or Undaunted Infiltrator (both medium)
Bar & Accessories
Sergeant's Mail (lightning, neck, ring)
Oakensoul Ring
Same abilities, attributes, CPs, mundus, and target dummy for every test build.
To minimize the impact of player-executed rotation on the test results, we used Heavy Attack weaving as the rotation for this experiment. The rotation used was as follows:- Wall
- Heavy Attack
- Heavy Attack
- Heavy Attack
- Heavy Attack
Results - see the beginning of this post (for details please see the image)
TL;DR
To summarize:
Based on the data collected, it appears that the proposed changes will result in a significant nerf to the maximum achievable Heavy Attack damage, with a reduction of approximately -24%. It's important to note that this test was conducted on a stationary target. In actual combat scenarios, Storm Master uptimes (and thus DPS) are likely to decrease even further. This is due to the fact that if a player misses the 3-second window to deal critical damage (which is common since most HA builds have a critical chance of around 40-50%), the Storm Master buff falls off.
I don’t think people realize how deadly of a hit this is giving to ha builds. I think it may render some of our builds for us low dps solo players useless.
I guess it’s back to sucking wind and doing quests with as little combat as possible now and not being able to use all the content I pay for. Unless they review these things and decide not to move forward with this.
Personally I was happy with my main character the dps I was getting for now and the content I was able to do because of it it (even tho it still needs a ton of work I was Still is a much better place I’d never reach other wise without this ).
Sorry, but the test you quoted is not accurate. One can't test the DPS loss like that because it will not be an accurate assessment on the impact of the build. You need to test the entire build or the numbers will be greatly skewed.
When testing a full build on PTS vs Live, you only see a 6% damage loss. This is because, while the nerf to Storm Master's may impact your HA damage by 20% or so, wearing it in tandem with other sets will mitigate that loss. HA damage also only accounts for around 70% of the DPS of a HA build, so your overall dps is not impacted by 20% like the quoted test states.
You can check my post in the PTS forum for an accurate comparison between full parses.
Oh ok. Well for someone like me who is only hitting 25k dps half finished with their build it’s a massive hit to me and will further make it harder to finish my build that’s already been nerfed.
It’s almost like you are defending the changes because it’s what you wanted it. Trust me I’ll never be able to out parse you lol
It’s not my goal. I was shooting for 30-40 k max and I’m only at 25k I’m striving to focus on the solo arenas and many people like me aren’t hitting high dps or even affect your groups what so ever.
Make a parse on 21M trial dummy not 3/6M one. It gives more reliable starting point to know where are You at with Your DPS.
I unfortunately don’t have one and my guild as far as I know doesn’t have one either.
You can teleport to the house of someone who have one if it's an open house. Just type this command in chat /script JumpToHouse("@house owner ID") and You will be able to teleport to the house of someone who have 21M trial dummy. So now just ask around for someone on Your server who have free to visit house with a trial dummy. There is plenty of people like that.
I’ll ask I don’t know anyone who has one and i do not believe my guilds have them.
But I’m telling your right now I’m not going to be holding down one button slaying gods it will be a very low and sad number. You are reallY overestimating it.
It's not that like have any expectations towards Your DPS. I just said that trial dummy is a more reliable source of data. You can also ask around for people like that in zone chats.
Just did a target blood nignt and got 19k dps
Once again this is holding down just the one button no dots. People are gravely over estimating the dps
Edit : with pets out but not activating them so without pets even less damage
This is actually what You can do just by holding down one button. You can literally put something heavy on LMB leave the room and still get over 80k.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pOBjX6xPw20
Except I held down one button wether it’s me or a “book” holding it down its 19k not 80k. It feels like people are saying these things because they hate the play style and want to mock it.
Were you doing it on an Iron Atronach dummy? Iron atronach dummy will give you extra buffs; when people talk about these crazy high 70k+ parses they're talking about it on that dummy - everyone (or at least, everyone comparing parses) uses the Iron Atro dummy for standardization purposes.
No normal regular dummies no special buff ones I don’t even know anyone who has those to try
19k on a normal dummy should be 50k+ on an iron atronach dummy, so you arent as far behind as you'd think.2 -
isadoraisacat✭✭✭✭✭CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »isadoraisacat wrote: »isadoraisacat wrote: »isadoraisacat wrote: »isadoraisacat wrote: »isadoraisacat wrote: »isadoraisacat wrote: »isadoraisacat wrote: »isadoraisacat wrote: »isadoraisacat wrote: »isadoraisacat wrote: »isadoraisacat wrote: »SerafinaWaterstar wrote: »I do not understand the devs reasoning - so what if the HA builds were reaching or in rare cases surpassing LA builds?
Where does it state that LA builds are the ‘sanctioned’ build?
This is not, as many have said previously, “Play how you like” 🤣
(And way to go to discriminate against those that find LA weaving/bar swapping difficult due to disabilities)
It says on the steam page basically play how you want. So I’d gather there is no developer determined set way to play. So I’d hope they would reconsider these changes.
Play how you want only means that there is various levels of content for different people.
Do you want to fish, you can do that. Do you want to pick flowers, you can do that too. PVP, Trials, solo content, overland questing, you can do all of that as well. You can pick the things you want to do, and do those things.
Play how you want DOES NOT mean that you can do all of those things with anything. You need to be properly equipped/prepared for them. You may want to fish, but you must have the necessary bait to do so. You may want to pick flowers, but certain CP and skill points are going to be necessary to be most efficient at it.
You can PVP, but if you don't equip yourself properly, you are not going to be effective.
Play how you want does not mean that whatever way you want to approach the different parts of content available are going to work. You can farm gear all you want, but it won't win you a ToT match or build your ToT deck. Just like being ill-equipped for PVE content isn't going to get you through that content.
That is all, it is available for you to do. But you still have to prepare yourself properly for it.
I don’t see a “play how you want as long as it’s weaving” in this anywhere.
This is not what we are talking about.
It says mix different armors and skills
Together for your own play style what is storm master / sergeant and oaken soul? And the associated dots we use with the build it’s all armors and skills. Seems like we are following zos meaning perfectly here with a HA build.
Mix any armors and skills. But if we can't agree that someone running Armor Master and Adept rider, and using only tank and healing skills, is going to be flat out awful in a DPS role in PVE content, then I really don't even know how to continue this conversation.
You can play any content you want, you can wear any set or no set at all. But you still need to make sure what you are wearing is effective for the content you want to do. It's that simple.
None of this even matters, because Storm Masters and Sergeant's will still be perfectly viable for vet content, including trials, next patch. But, you can also wear another set instead of Storm Masters and be just as viable. Because the DPs loss isn't that bad. It's not bad at all.
I even did some math in the other thread, I'll even add some more here.
On LIVE right now, on a Storm Master and Sergeants Oaken sorc build.
With pets out, but Zero skills being activated. Just holding the heavy attack button. The build does 29K DPS on a 3 million dummy. The base one, with no pen or debuffs. 29K DPS.
Activating skills bumps that up to 33K DPS. So, Heavy attacks+Storm Master +Sergeants+Shock enchant = 29K DPS.
That combo is roughly 87% of the 33K DPs parse.
So, a baseline of 29K DPS on that 3M with doing nothing but holding heavy attack. That portion of the parse is the only part that is losing damage. So let's say the doomsaying 20% amount that keeps getting thrown around, that means that portion will do 23.2K DPS + now the skills portion of the parse, you get 28.2K DPS, an overall 15% nerf to a full parse.
That 15% is worst case scenario, and as others have already shown, not the actual case. But even so, using your 25K limit, that 15% nerf is 21K damage.
Honestly, if people are going to reject a player for 21K DPS on a 3M dummy, they were going to reject you for 25K. Especially when a 29K parse on a 3M is possible without activating any skills and just heavy attacking.
At the same time, plenty of groups literally don't care as long as you aren't dying or not following mechanics.
Clearly the set up was affective we wouldn’t be here if it wasn’t the case.
[snip]
I am literally showing you the numbers from the oakenbuild I use and have saved in my armorer. I cleared VMA on it this morning for my best score ever, and I run it in vet trials.
The nerf in PTS is nothing of any import on the build. It will be fine post nerf and still be stronger than the average solo DPS setup.
If we really want to make a comparison, my two bar solo build also does vet content, including vet trials and dungeons, and barely does 22K DPS on the 3M dummy. This heavy attack build does 10K more DPS, and even after the nerf will still do at least 5K more DPS. And no-one has turned down my solo build for vet content because I know how to do the role and I don't try to do trifecta prog groups. I play with like-minded players. And if your build is doing 20K+ DPS on a 3M dummy, it is effective enough for all content in the game.
And I’m literally sharing my experiences that I’ve been bullied for using this build. I’ve been kicked out a group dungeons at the last boss and mocked.
I don’t know which dummy is 3m I’m referring to the standard skeleton dummy not the parsing high end one with all the buffs I never did that dummy as I don’t have one.
You can’t compare your self to me we are different people different players with different abilities different disabilities and different levels of experience.
The skeleton is the 3M. 3M refers to the health the dummy has.
Honestly, personal experiences and anecdotes are irrelevant. You get bullied for using the build. Find better groups to run the build with. I don't get bullied for using the build, because I run with like minded people. It's is an easy fix to make. Don't play the game with people who don't want to play it with you the way you want to play it.
In the case of this nerf, the only thing that matters are objective numbers. And objectively, oakensoul heavy builds are going to be fine, at all levels of play. And objectively, I can hold 1 single button down for 2 minutes just as much as you can on a heavy attack build. And objectively on an oakensorc build, doing so gives you 29K DPS on the 3M dummy, without pressing a single skill. This does not require effort, this does not require timing. This require clicking and holding a trigger or mouse button, which is the minimum requirement for a heavy attack builds functionality.
I can’t always “find better groups” I work 7 days a week. I have a family to care for. When I come on if people in guilds aren’t on and I need transmuted to progress my character I have to deal with random people to do what I need to do. Not everyone is just online at the same time.
Everyone’s experience is relevant.
That’s just a snide thing to say.
I’m aware 3m refers to the health of the dummy im saying i use the normal skeleton one and never used the one to use referring too.
I mean if you want me to record my self playing holding down one button and not doing the damage you say ? I can gladly do it. I’m up for the challenge does anyone have a 3m dummy I can borrow ?
Becuase I bet you it will take me like 10
Minutes or more to kill it with much less dps. If I struggle on the basic skeleton.
The normal skeleton is the only 3M skeleton. Or at the very least, that is exactly what I am talking about.
On a trial dummy, just holding heavy attack down and not using skills nets around 70 DPS on the same build.
Your results are in sir you can see at the end of this thread in a 5 mill dummy you are not correct.
So, here is where you assess your build and see why you aren't hitting that obtainable number.
What blue CP slottables are you running?
I know you said your gear isn't fully upgraded, but that isn't going to do all that much. I am assuming you have the full sergeant and storm master setup. What is the other 1 piece set you are wearing, slimecraw is the best choice here. And your Mundus?
Of the two 5 piece sets, which are you running on your body and which on your jewelry. It makes a difference if the heavy set is on your body.
I’m using slimcraw as the monster helm.
Im using all the slottables recommended at lower amounts of points as I’m still low ep. All my gear is purple except for my staff which has a bad trait on it. 2 pieces have only divines on them. And I’m using the thief.
Once again the point is if they cut my build short farming for transmutes to make my build better will be much harder.
2 farming for xp
Will less easy due to not being able to take on world bosses anymore or things That gain more xp.
I’m well aware my build isn’t done… but the set up is by the book exactly what it needs to be for this build.
I just need more cp to add more points and to gold out my gear with better traits.
And yes 5 pieces of seargets and storm master plus slim craw with oakensoul.
And another point is why all this changes and push now if it will kick me back to this level say I gain 28k form these changes wil be knocked back down to 25 k anyway 🤷🏻♂️ so all this work to stay where in at and not progress.
I assure you, hitting 24K dps and losing 2-3K isn't going to impact your ability to do any of those things. As I already said, my normal build hits less than your incomplete build and it literally does all content and solos vet dungeons, trifecta Vateshran speed run craglorn vet trials, hardmodes, DLC vet dungeons and trials. All with less DPS. 20K DPS is more than enough for content in this game unless you are score pushing.
Latest if you claim 20k is enough why are people so worried about HA attack doing more damage it should matter than.
I mean, look at my post history of the last few months of literally defending heavy attack oaken builds as fine.
The only time I had a problem with oakensoul was when it was released and it was broken in PVP and players could chain drop storm atros. Since they fixed that, zero complaints and in fact defense of them.
But let's be clear, on live right now, they truly are outperforming. I just scored the best score for Vet Maelstrom I have ever scored on my sorc using this build, with a tenth of the effort it takes my solo build to do the same content. It is, objectively, pretty absurd.
But, I also think it has enough drawbacks that it makes it ok. Simultaneously, I can see that it needed a reasonable adjustment. And frankly, this seems reasonable. A small nerf to empower and a set adjustment. Set adjustments happen all the time. And, let's be real here, when a set is performing so well that it is practically a requirement on a build, it is ALWAYS bound to get nerfed. There are other sets though, that will work just as well, that didn't get nerfed. Probably just about the same DPS that you are getting now with those sets and those sets don't rely on a critting fully charged heavy attack to work.
I understand what you are saying but you have to understand I have physical limitations and zero experience with mmo style of play. So comparing you to me is like comparing a black belt to a white belt.
I’m still working on my build this set back just makes doing that harder is my initial point. That’s all.
I think being nerfed just never feels good. Especially for everyone who isn’t the very small minority of top tier players these decisions seem to be based around. It’s like being 50 in a marathon of 100 people and being knocked down and being told it’s okay, just sprint to to get back to 50th. Easy to say from the vantage point of those who aren’t nerfed or who actively desired these nerfs based on numbers being thrown out that were accomplished by a tiny minutiae of the player base.
I will concede that the YouTube video posted is kinda dumb lol (meaning I’m surprised at this much dps for just holding down a button). Has there been any nerfs since 4 months ago or is that where we are now? Again I’m not playing sorc and only got this last week.
Top tier players are not even running with this setup so it's hardly a decision based around them. It's mid and low tier players that still want to play something else that got affected the most by oakensoul HA setups.
No nerfs since then. You can still get over 80k on live server by pressing 1 button.
Ty for the info. I don’t really think just holding your finger down for that much and doing nothing else is great game design so something to consider.
@isodora. It’s awful but I hope you report anyone who lets you play until the last boss and then vote kicks you. This happened to me last week when I pigged into a 3 man premade. One of them went afk none of them said anything so I pulled and killed a boss with the tank. The healer then spent the rest of the dungeon emoting and calling me names - odd how her keyboard worked then but not to say they were afk and not to pull a boss. Then I got booted at the final boss. I reported but was to,d I’ll never know if any action was taken or not due to policy, but I like to think they got at least a warning.
Unfortunately I didn’t get their names I was too upset to think straight.
As for just Holding the button. I still have a rotation I keep my dots going my pets activated and “weave” then between each heavy attack. It’s not just doing nothing. I’m very skilled with tactical stuff my issue is my actual hands are not optimal due to injury and and carpal tunnel. If I didn’t have these issues I wouldn’t mind a one bar rotation with more dots to manage. My only real issue with eso combat is the bar swap it’s the one thing I never liked doing. But I CAN weave I just can’t do it for long without pain.
I’m sorry to hear about your hand pain and I completely understand. This is supposed to be a fun game and enjoyable relief at the end of the day. I also weave in my dots when I play this and am also not getting those numbers. Lol. Maybe I just just hold a button unstead haha. You mentioned still having some work to do with traits and maybe with those and some more cp this will still be fun enough if the nerf moves ahead. If it does we will have to accept and hopefully still have fun I’d the change isn’t too dire.
Yeah my main issue is my staff has a really useless trait I’m confident if I can recon this with precise as the trait it will do a lot more damage. I’m only cp614 so I have. A lot of cp points to go to add more damage. And I need to put divines on all my gear save for 2 and make my gear gold. I actually folded out my staff which was dumb as I should have waited until reconned it with a new trait.
.
Just as a heads up in case you weren't aware; some people get really caught up in Golding out all your gear, but as long as your enchants and weapons are gold, the rest can be purple and the net loss is very small. If you don't have the gold mats or the time to farm them, just make your weapons and enchants gold and call it good.
Yeah I don’t have gold enchants yet either I’m not capable of making them yet
but yeah mostly meant getting divines on all my gear / gold staff with best trait best enchants etc but I’m very far from being able to do all
That0 -
AScarlato✭✭✭✭✭CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »isadoraisacat wrote: »isadoraisacat wrote: »isadoraisacat wrote: »isadoraisacat wrote: »isadoraisacat wrote: »isadoraisacat wrote: »isadoraisacat wrote: »isadoraisacat wrote: »isadoraisacat wrote: »isadoraisacat wrote: »isadoraisacat wrote: »SerafinaWaterstar wrote: »I do not understand the devs reasoning - so what if the HA builds were reaching or in rare cases surpassing LA builds?
Where does it state that LA builds are the ‘sanctioned’ build?
This is not, as many have said previously, “Play how you like” 🤣
(And way to go to discriminate against those that find LA weaving/bar swapping difficult due to disabilities)
It says on the steam page basically play how you want. So I’d gather there is no developer determined set way to play. So I’d hope they would reconsider these changes.
Play how you want only means that there is various levels of content for different people.
Do you want to fish, you can do that. Do you want to pick flowers, you can do that too. PVP, Trials, solo content, overland questing, you can do all of that as well. You can pick the things you want to do, and do those things.
Play how you want DOES NOT mean that you can do all of those things with anything. You need to be properly equipped/prepared for them. You may want to fish, but you must have the necessary bait to do so. You may want to pick flowers, but certain CP and skill points are going to be necessary to be most efficient at it.
You can PVP, but if you don't equip yourself properly, you are not going to be effective.
Play how you want does not mean that whatever way you want to approach the different parts of content available are going to work. You can farm gear all you want, but it won't win you a ToT match or build your ToT deck. Just like being ill-equipped for PVE content isn't going to get you through that content.
That is all, it is available for you to do. But you still have to prepare yourself properly for it.
I don’t see a “play how you want as long as it’s weaving” in this anywhere.
This is not what we are talking about.
It says mix different armors and skills
Together for your own play style what is storm master / sergeant and oaken soul? And the associated dots we use with the build it’s all armors and skills. Seems like we are following zos meaning perfectly here with a HA build.
Mix any armors and skills. But if we can't agree that someone running Armor Master and Adept rider, and using only tank and healing skills, is going to be flat out awful in a DPS role in PVE content, then I really don't even know how to continue this conversation.
You can play any content you want, you can wear any set or no set at all. But you still need to make sure what you are wearing is effective for the content you want to do. It's that simple.
None of this even matters, because Storm Masters and Sergeant's will still be perfectly viable for vet content, including trials, next patch. But, you can also wear another set instead of Storm Masters and be just as viable. Because the DPs loss isn't that bad. It's not bad at all.
I even did some math in the other thread, I'll even add some more here.
On LIVE right now, on a Storm Master and Sergeants Oaken sorc build.
With pets out, but Zero skills being activated. Just holding the heavy attack button. The build does 29K DPS on a 3 million dummy. The base one, with no pen or debuffs. 29K DPS.
Activating skills bumps that up to 33K DPS. So, Heavy attacks+Storm Master +Sergeants+Shock enchant = 29K DPS.
That combo is roughly 87% of the 33K DPs parse.
So, a baseline of 29K DPS on that 3M with doing nothing but holding heavy attack. That portion of the parse is the only part that is losing damage. So let's say the doomsaying 20% amount that keeps getting thrown around, that means that portion will do 23.2K DPS + now the skills portion of the parse, you get 28.2K DPS, an overall 15% nerf to a full parse.
That 15% is worst case scenario, and as others have already shown, not the actual case. But even so, using your 25K limit, that 15% nerf is 21K damage.
Honestly, if people are going to reject a player for 21K DPS on a 3M dummy, they were going to reject you for 25K. Especially when a 29K parse on a 3M is possible without activating any skills and just heavy attacking.
At the same time, plenty of groups literally don't care as long as you aren't dying or not following mechanics.
Clearly the set up was affective we wouldn’t be here if it wasn’t the case.
[snip]
I am literally showing you the numbers from the oakenbuild I use and have saved in my armorer. I cleared VMA on it this morning for my best score ever, and I run it in vet trials.
The nerf in PTS is nothing of any import on the build. It will be fine post nerf and still be stronger than the average solo DPS setup.
If we really want to make a comparison, my two bar solo build also does vet content, including vet trials and dungeons, and barely does 22K DPS on the 3M dummy. This heavy attack build does 10K more DPS, and even after the nerf will still do at least 5K more DPS. And no-one has turned down my solo build for vet content because I know how to do the role and I don't try to do trifecta prog groups. I play with like-minded players. And if your build is doing 20K+ DPS on a 3M dummy, it is effective enough for all content in the game.
And I’m literally sharing my experiences that I’ve been bullied for using this build. I’ve been kicked out a group dungeons at the last boss and mocked.
I don’t know which dummy is 3m I’m referring to the standard skeleton dummy not the parsing high end one with all the buffs I never did that dummy as I don’t have one.
You can’t compare your self to me we are different people different players with different abilities different disabilities and different levels of experience.
The skeleton is the 3M. 3M refers to the health the dummy has.
Honestly, personal experiences and anecdotes are irrelevant. You get bullied for using the build. Find better groups to run the build with. I don't get bullied for using the build, because I run with like minded people. It's is an easy fix to make. Don't play the game with people who don't want to play it with you the way you want to play it.
In the case of this nerf, the only thing that matters are objective numbers. And objectively, oakensoul heavy builds are going to be fine, at all levels of play. And objectively, I can hold 1 single button down for 2 minutes just as much as you can on a heavy attack build. And objectively on an oakensorc build, doing so gives you 29K DPS on the 3M dummy, without pressing a single skill. This does not require effort, this does not require timing. This require clicking and holding a trigger or mouse button, which is the minimum requirement for a heavy attack builds functionality.
I can’t always “find better groups” I work 7 days a week. I have a family to care for. When I come on if people in guilds aren’t on and I need transmuted to progress my character I have to deal with random people to do what I need to do. Not everyone is just online at the same time.
Everyone’s experience is relevant.
That’s just a snide thing to say.
I’m aware 3m refers to the health of the dummy im saying i use the normal skeleton one and never used the one to use referring too.
I mean if you want me to record my self playing holding down one button and not doing the damage you say ? I can gladly do it. I’m up for the challenge does anyone have a 3m dummy I can borrow ?
Becuase I bet you it will take me like 10
Minutes or more to kill it with much less dps. If I struggle on the basic skeleton.
The normal skeleton is the only 3M skeleton. Or at the very least, that is exactly what I am talking about.
On a trial dummy, just holding heavy attack down and not using skills nets around 70 DPS on the same build.
Your results are in sir you can see at the end of this thread in a 5 mill dummy you are not correct.
So, here is where you assess your build and see why you aren't hitting that obtainable number.
What blue CP slottables are you running?
I know you said your gear isn't fully upgraded, but that isn't going to do all that much. I am assuming you have the full sergeant and storm master setup. What is the other 1 piece set you are wearing, slimecraw is the best choice here. And your Mundus?
Of the two 5 piece sets, which are you running on your body and which on your jewelry. It makes a difference if the heavy set is on your body.
I’m using slimcraw as the monster helm.
Im using all the slottables recommended at lower amounts of points as I’m still low ep. All my gear is purple except for my staff which has a bad trait on it. 2 pieces have only divines on them. And I’m using the thief.
Once again the point is if they cut my build short farming for transmutes to make my build better will be much harder.
2 farming for xp
Will less easy due to not being able to take on world bosses anymore or things That gain more xp.
I’m well aware my build isn’t done… but the set up is by the book exactly what it needs to be for this build.
I just need more cp to add more points and to gold out my gear with better traits.
And yes 5 pieces of seargets and storm master plus slim craw with oakensoul.
And another point is why all this changes and push now if it will kick me back to this level say I gain 28k form these changes wil be knocked back down to 25 k anyway 🤷🏻♂️ so all this work to stay where in at and not progress.
I assure you, hitting 24K dps and losing 2-3K isn't going to impact your ability to do any of those things. As I already said, my normal build hits less than your incomplete build and it literally does all content and solos vet dungeons, trifecta Vateshran speed run craglorn vet trials, hardmodes, DLC vet dungeons and trials. All with less DPS. 20K DPS is more than enough for content in this game unless you are score pushing.
Latest if you claim 20k is enough why are people so worried about HA attack doing more damage it should matter than.
I mean, look at my post history of the last few months of literally defending heavy attack oaken builds as fine.
The only time I had a problem with oakensoul was when it was released and it was broken in PVP and players could chain drop storm atros. Since they fixed that, zero complaints and in fact defense of them.
But let's be clear, on live right now, they truly are outperforming. I just scored the best score for Vet Maelstrom I have ever scored on my sorc using this build, with a tenth of the effort it takes my solo build to do the same content. It is, objectively, pretty absurd.
But, I also think it has enough drawbacks that it makes it ok. Simultaneously, I can see that it needed a reasonable adjustment. And frankly, this seems reasonable. A small nerf to empower and a set adjustment. Set adjustments happen all the time. And, let's be real here, when a set is performing so well that it is practically a requirement on a build, it is ALWAYS bound to get nerfed. There are other sets though, that will work just as well, that didn't get nerfed. Probably just about the same DPS that you are getting now with those sets and those sets don't rely on a critting fully charged heavy attack to work.
I understand what you are saying but you have to understand I have physical limitations and zero experience with mmo style of play. So comparing you to me is like comparing a black belt to a white belt.
I’m still working on my build this set back just makes doing that harder is my initial point. That’s all.
I think being nerfed just never feels good. Especially for everyone who isn’t the very small minority of top tier players these decisions seem to be based around. It’s like being 50 in a marathon of 100 people and being knocked down and being told it’s okay, just sprint to to get back to 50th. Easy to say from the vantage point of those who aren’t nerfed or who actively desired these nerfs based on numbers being thrown out that were accomplished by a tiny minutiae of the player base.
I will concede that the YouTube video posted is kinda dumb lol (meaning I’m surprised at this much dps for just holding down a button). Has there been any nerfs since 4 months ago or is that where we are now? Again I’m not playing sorc and only got this last week.
Top tier players are not even running with this setup so it's hardly a decision based around them. It's mid and low tier players that still want to play something else that got affected the most by oakensoul HA setups.
No nerfs since then. You can still get over 80k on live server by pressing 1 button.
Ty for the info. I don’t really think just holding your finger down for that much and doing nothing else is great game design so something to consider.
@isodora. It’s awful but I hope you report anyone who lets you play until the last boss and then vote kicks you. This happened to me last week when I pigged into a 3 man premade. One of them went afk none of them said anything so I pulled and killed a boss with the tank. The healer then spent the rest of the dungeon emoting and calling me names - odd how her keyboard worked then but not to say they were afk and not to pull a boss. Then I got booted at the final boss. I reported but was to,d I’ll never know if any action was taken or not due to policy, but I like to think they got at least a warning.
Unfortunately I didn’t get their names I was too upset to think straight.
As for just Holding the button. I still have a rotation I keep my dots going my pets activated and “weave” then between each heavy attack. It’s not just doing nothing. I’m very skilled with tactical stuff my issue is my actual hands are not optimal due to injury and and carpal tunnel. If I didn’t have these issues I wouldn’t mind a one bar rotation with more dots to manage. My only real issue with eso combat is the bar swap it’s the one thing I never liked doing. But I CAN weave I just can’t do it for long without pain.
I’m sorry to hear about your hand pain and I completely understand. This is supposed to be a fun game and enjoyable relief at the end of the day. I also weave in my dots when I play this and am also not getting those numbers. Lol. Maybe I just just hold a button unstead haha. You mentioned still having some work to do with traits and maybe with those and some more cp this will still be fun enough if the nerf moves ahead. If it does we will have to accept and hopefully still have fun I’d the change isn’t too dire.
Yeah my main issue is my staff has a really useless trait I’m confident if I can recon this with precise as the trait it will do a lot more damage. I’m only cp614 so I have. A lot of cp points to go to add more damage. And I need to put divines on all my gear save for 2 and make my gear gold. I actually folded out my staff which was dumb as I should have waited until reconned it with a new trait.
.
Just as a heads up in case you weren't aware; some people get really caught up in Golding out all your gear, but as long as your enchants and weapons are gold, the rest can be purple and the net loss is very small. If you don't have the gold mats or the time to farm them, just make your weapons and enchants gold and call it good.
Solid advice and advice I will take in the future if I have a gut feeling nerfs may be coming.1 -
vsrs_au✭✭✭✭✭
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A question from someone unfamiliar with target dummies (a Dummy dummy, if you willCameraBeardThePirate wrote: »Were you doing it on an Iron Atronach dummy? Iron atronach dummy will give you extra buffs; when people talk about these crazy high 70k+ parses they're talking about it on that dummy - everyone (or at least, everyone comparing parses) uses the Iron Atro dummy for standardization purposes.
): doesn't that dummy simulate a group environment, i.e. isn't that the reason it applies buffs/debuffs to your character? So if we want to know our typical DPS for solo we should be using a non-buffed dummy? PC(Steam) / EU / play from Melbourne, Australia / avg ping 3902 -
isadoraisacat✭✭✭✭✭CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »isadoraisacat wrote: »CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »isadoraisacat wrote: »isadoraisacat wrote: »isadoraisacat wrote: »isadoraisacat wrote: »isadoraisacat wrote: »CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »isadoraisacat wrote: »Wow, I'm pleasantly surprised by the overwhelming number of replies! Thank you to everyone who took the time to share their thoughts on this topic. It's great to see so many insightful comments.
Hopefully, ZOS will take note of the community's concerns and reconsider their proposed changes to Storm Master and Empower before they go live with Necrom. I've noticed that there have been some misunderstandings regarding the extent of the nerf, with some suggesting it's only up to around 6%. However, I want to clarify that the numbers I provided earlier are not mere estimations or guesses, but actual results obtained from testing DPS in combat. So here are the accurate numbers once again.
SM Live vs PTS
-23.99% max DPS (-17.82% avg DPS)
The above DPS loss will be even worse in actual combat scenarios, because Storm Master uptimes (and thus DPS) are likely to decrease even further. This is due to the fact that if a player misses the 3-second window to deal critical damage (which is common since most HA builds have a critical chance of around 40-50%), the Storm Master buff falls off.
By the way, it's worth noting that the Undaunted Infiltrator set is not a viable alternative to Storm Master. In fact, it still falls short in comparison. Here's why:
SM Live vs Undaunted Infiltrator (UI) PTS
-24.96% max DPS (-20.64% avg DPS)
If you're interested in verifying these test results for yourself, it's easy to do so by logging into the PTS. Here are some more details on how to replicate the experiment:
Test Assumptions:- The purpose of this test is to evaluate how the proposed changes affect Heavy Attack DPS, so we are only interested in sets and abilities that are specific to Heavy Attack builds. Therefore, we will exclude sets and abilities that are not relevant to this test, such as Pillar of Nirn and Volatile Familiar.
- To minimize confounding factors and isolate the variables under test, we need to control for various factors such as differences in builds, classes, player skill level, and random variations caused by Critical Rating and Critical Damage. The controlled variables for this experiment are:
- The combat ruleset (live vs PTS)
- The 5-piece body set used (Storm Master and Undaunted Infiltrator).
Body
1x L Slimecraw
1x Sergeant (heavy)
5x Strom Master or Undaunted Infiltrator (both medium)
Bar & Accessories
Sergeant's Mail (lightning, neck, ring)
Oakensoul Ring
Same abilities, attributes, CPs, mundus, and target dummy for every test build.
To minimize the impact of player-executed rotation on the test results, we used Heavy Attack weaving as the rotation for this experiment. The rotation used was as follows:- Wall
- Heavy Attack
- Heavy Attack
- Heavy Attack
- Heavy Attack
Results - see the beginning of this post (for details please see the image)
TL;DR
To summarize:
Based on the data collected, it appears that the proposed changes will result in a significant nerf to the maximum achievable Heavy Attack damage, with a reduction of approximately -24%. It's important to note that this test was conducted on a stationary target. In actual combat scenarios, Storm Master uptimes (and thus DPS) are likely to decrease even further. This is due to the fact that if a player misses the 3-second window to deal critical damage (which is common since most HA builds have a critical chance of around 40-50%), the Storm Master buff falls off.
I don’t think people realize how deadly of a hit this is giving to ha builds. I think it may render some of our builds for us low dps solo players useless.
I guess it’s back to sucking wind and doing quests with as little combat as possible now and not being able to use all the content I pay for. Unless they review these things and decide not to move forward with this.
Personally I was happy with my main character the dps I was getting for now and the content I was able to do because of it it (even tho it still needs a ton of work I was Still is a much better place I’d never reach other wise without this ).
Sorry, but the test you quoted is not accurate. One can't test the DPS loss like that because it will not be an accurate assessment on the impact of the build. You need to test the entire build or the numbers will be greatly skewed.
When testing a full build on PTS vs Live, you only see a 6% damage loss. This is because, while the nerf to Storm Master's may impact your HA damage by 20% or so, wearing it in tandem with other sets will mitigate that loss. HA damage also only accounts for around 70% of the DPS of a HA build, so your overall dps is not impacted by 20% like the quoted test states.
You can check my post in the PTS forum for an accurate comparison between full parses.
Oh ok. Well for someone like me who is only hitting 25k dps half finished with their build it’s a massive hit to me and will further make it harder to finish my build that’s already been nerfed.
It’s almost like you are defending the changes because it’s what you wanted it. Trust me I’ll never be able to out parse you lol
It’s not my goal. I was shooting for 30-40 k max and I’m only at 25k I’m striving to focus on the solo arenas and many people like me aren’t hitting high dps or even affect your groups what so ever.
Make a parse on 21M trial dummy not 3/6M one. It gives more reliable starting point to know where are You at with Your DPS.
I unfortunately don’t have one and my guild as far as I know doesn’t have one either.
You can teleport to the house of someone who have one if it's an open house. Just type this command in chat /script JumpToHouse("@house owner ID") and You will be able to teleport to the house of someone who have 21M trial dummy. So now just ask around for someone on Your server who have free to visit house with a trial dummy. There is plenty of people like that.
I’ll ask I don’t know anyone who has one and i do not believe my guilds have them.
But I’m telling your right now I’m not going to be holding down one button slaying gods it will be a very low and sad number. You are reallY overestimating it.
It's not that like have any expectations towards Your DPS. I just said that trial dummy is a more reliable source of data. You can also ask around for people like that in zone chats.
Just did a target blood nignt and got 19k dps
Once again this is holding down just the one button no dots. People are gravely over estimating the dps
Edit : with pets out but not activating them so without pets even less damage
This is actually what You can do just by holding down one button. You can literally put something heavy on LMB leave the room and still get over 80k.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pOBjX6xPw20
Except I held down one button wether it’s me or a “book” holding it down its 19k not 80k. It feels like people are saying these things because they hate the play style and want to mock it.
Were you doing it on an Iron Atronach dummy? Iron atronach dummy will give you extra buffs; when people talk about these crazy high 70k+ parses they're talking about it on that dummy - everyone (or at least, everyone comparing parses) uses the Iron Atro dummy for standardization purposes.
No normal regular dummies no special buff ones I don’t even know anyone who has those to try
19k on a normal dummy should be 50k+ on an iron atronach dummy, so you arent as far behind as you'd think.
Cool I’ll feel more confident if I can find a way to test it myself. Hopefully someone has one to try out.1 -
isadoraisacat✭✭✭✭✭
A question from someone unfamiliar with target dummies (a Dummy dummy, if you willCameraBeardThePirate wrote: »Were you doing it on an Iron Atronach dummy? Iron atronach dummy will give you extra buffs; when people talk about these crazy high 70k+ parses they're talking about it on that dummy - everyone (or at least, everyone comparing parses) uses the Iron Atro dummy for standardization purposes. ): doesn't that dummy simulate a group environment, i.e. isn't that the reason it applies buffs/debuffs to your character? So if we want to know our typical DPS for solo we should be using a non-buffed dummy?
Yeah that’s why I was using a normal one becuase it shows how I can perform against world bosses etc some of them I struggle with at the dps I am at now soloing so I wonder with the nerf if I’ll be in a little bit of a situation.
I never did the trial ones because I never thought I’d ever do that stuff.Edited by isadoraisacat on April 20, 2023 11:05PM0 -
CameraBeardThePirate✭✭✭✭✭
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A question from someone unfamiliar with target dummies (a Dummy dummy, if you willCameraBeardThePirate wrote: »Were you doing it on an Iron Atronach dummy? Iron atronach dummy will give you extra buffs; when people talk about these crazy high 70k+ parses they're talking about it on that dummy - everyone (or at least, everyone comparing parses) uses the Iron Atro dummy for standardization purposes. ): doesn't that dummy simulate a group environment, i.e. isn't that the reason it applies buffs/debuffs to your character? So if we want to know our typical DPS for solo we should be using a non-buffed dummy?
Yes and no. If you want to know your dps for an entirely solo environment 1:1, then yes, the 3m or 6m dummy will be more accurate.
However, you should then take caution when comparing that parse to anyone else's, as almost anyone who parses will do so on the Iron Atro with all the buffs. Because of that, sometimes it's easier to just always parse on the Iron Atro so that you know how you stack up to other builds. If you're ever sharing a parse with anyone, they'll probably assume you're using the Iron Atro.2 -
TaSheen✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭isadoraisacat wrote: »Yeah I don’t have gold enchants yet either I’m not capable of making them yet but yeah mostly meant getting divines on all my gear / gold staff with best trait best enchants etc but I’m very far from being able to do all
That
If you're on PC NA or PC EU, tell me what enchants you need and how many of each type and I will craft them for you (no charge) and send them along tomorrow. I would need your in game ID of course.
______________________________________________________
"But even in books, the heroes make mistakes, and there isn't always a happy ending." Mercedes Lackey, Into the West
PC NA, PC EU (non steam)- four accounts, many alts....1 -
isadoraisacat✭✭✭✭✭CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »
A question from someone unfamiliar with target dummies (a Dummy dummy, if you willCameraBeardThePirate wrote: »Were you doing it on an Iron Atronach dummy? Iron atronach dummy will give you extra buffs; when people talk about these crazy high 70k+ parses they're talking about it on that dummy - everyone (or at least, everyone comparing parses) uses the Iron Atro dummy for standardization purposes. ): doesn't that dummy simulate a group environment, i.e. isn't that the reason it applies buffs/debuffs to your character? So if we want to know our typical DPS for solo we should be using a non-buffed dummy?
Yes and no. If you want to know your dps for an entirely solo environment 1:1, then yes, the 3m or 6m dummy will be more accurate.
However, you should then take caution when comparing that parse to anyone else's, as almost anyone who parses will do so on the Iron Atro with all the buffs. Because of that, sometimes it's easier to just always parse on the Iron Atro so that you know how you stack up to other builds. If you're ever sharing a parse with anyone, they'll probably assume you're using the Iron Atro.
That makes sense. I’ll have to ask in the chat or something if anyone has one I can try.0 -
isadoraisacat✭✭✭✭✭isadoraisacat wrote: »Yeah I don’t have gold enchants yet either I’m not capable of making them yet but yeah mostly meant getting divines on all my gear / gold staff with best trait best enchants etc but I’m very far from being able to do all
That
If you're on PC NA or PC EU, tell me what enchants you need and how many of each type and I will craft them for you (no charge) and send them along tomorrow. I would need your in game ID of course.
Oh wow thanks a lot. I’m on NA server pc.
My id should be the same as my idea here isadoraisacat
Well for my staff I definitely want the one that gives the most damage for staff. Than for my jewelry and amors prob ones that gives the most boost to magic (I actually don’t know a lot about enchanting ) so maybe you can recommend?0 -
FrancisCrawford✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭isadoraisacat wrote: »isadoraisacat wrote: »isadoraisacat wrote: »isadoraisacat wrote: »isadoraisacat wrote: »isadoraisacat wrote: »isadoraisacat wrote: »isadoraisacat wrote: »SerafinaWaterstar wrote: »I do not understand the devs reasoning - so what if the HA builds were reaching or in rare cases surpassing LA builds?
Where does it state that LA builds are the ‘sanctioned’ build?
This is not, as many have said previously, “Play how you like” 🤣
(And way to go to discriminate against those that find LA weaving/bar swapping difficult due to disabilities)
It says on the steam page basically play how you want. So I’d gather there is no developer determined set way to play. So I’d hope they would reconsider these changes.
Play how you want only means that there is various levels of content for different people.
Do you want to fish, you can do that. Do you want to pick flowers, you can do that too. PVP, Trials, solo content, overland questing, you can do all of that as well. You can pick the things you want to do, and do those things.
Play how you want DOES NOT mean that you can do all of those things with anything. You need to be properly equipped/prepared for them. You may want to fish, but you must have the necessary bait to do so. You may want to pick flowers, but certain CP and skill points are going to be necessary to be most efficient at it.
You can PVP, but if you don't equip yourself properly, you are not going to be effective.
Play how you want does not mean that whatever way you want to approach the different parts of content available are going to work. You can farm gear all you want, but it won't win you a ToT match or build your ToT deck. Just like being ill-equipped for PVE content isn't going to get you through that content.
That is all, it is available for you to do. But you still have to prepare yourself properly for it.
I don’t see a “play how you want as long as it’s weaving” in this anywhere.
This is not what we are talking about.
It says mix different armors and skills
Together for your own play style what is storm master / sergeant and oaken soul? And the associated dots we use with the build it’s all armors and skills. Seems like we are following zos meaning perfectly here with a HA build.
Mix any armors and skills. But if we can't agree that someone running Armor Master and Adept rider, and using only tank and healing skills, is going to be flat out awful in a DPS role in PVE content, then I really don't even know how to continue this conversation.
You can play any content you want, you can wear any set or no set at all. But you still need to make sure what you are wearing is effective for the content you want to do. It's that simple.
None of this even matters, because Storm Masters and Sergeant's will still be perfectly viable for vet content, including trials, next patch. But, you can also wear another set instead of Storm Masters and be just as viable. Because the DPs loss isn't that bad. It's not bad at all.
I even did some math in the other thread, I'll even add some more here.
On LIVE right now, on a Storm Master and Sergeants Oaken sorc build.
With pets out, but Zero skills being activated. Just holding the heavy attack button. The build does 29K DPS on a 3 million dummy. The base one, with no pen or debuffs. 29K DPS.
Activating skills bumps that up to 33K DPS. So, Heavy attacks+Storm Master +Sergeants+Shock enchant = 29K DPS.
That combo is roughly 87% of the 33K DPs parse.
So, a baseline of 29K DPS on that 3M with doing nothing but holding heavy attack. That portion of the parse is the only part that is losing damage. So let's say the doomsaying 20% amount that keeps getting thrown around, that means that portion will do 23.2K DPS + now the skills portion of the parse, you get 28.2K DPS, an overall 15% nerf to a full parse.
That 15% is worst case scenario, and as others have already shown, not the actual case. But even so, using your 25K limit, that 15% nerf is 21K damage.
Honestly, if people are going to reject a player for 21K DPS on a 3M dummy, they were going to reject you for 25K. Especially when a 29K parse on a 3M is possible without activating any skills and just heavy attacking.
At the same time, plenty of groups literally don't care as long as you aren't dying or not following mechanics.
Clearly the set up was affective we wouldn’t be here if it wasn’t the case.
[snip]
I am literally showing you the numbers from the oakenbuild I use and have saved in my armorer. I cleared VMA on it this morning for my best score ever, and I run it in vet trials.
The nerf in PTS is nothing of any import on the build. It will be fine post nerf and still be stronger than the average solo DPS setup.
If we really want to make a comparison, my two bar solo build also does vet content, including vet trials and dungeons, and barely does 22K DPS on the 3M dummy. This heavy attack build does 10K more DPS, and even after the nerf will still do at least 5K more DPS. And no-one has turned down my solo build for vet content because I know how to do the role and I don't try to do trifecta prog groups. I play with like-minded players. And if your build is doing 20K+ DPS on a 3M dummy, it is effective enough for all content in the game.
And I’m literally sharing my experiences that I’ve been bullied for using this build. I’ve been kicked out a group dungeons at the last boss and mocked.
I don’t know which dummy is 3m I’m referring to the standard skeleton dummy not the parsing high end one with all the buffs I never did that dummy as I don’t have one.
You can’t compare your self to me we are different people different players with different abilities different disabilities and different levels of experience.
The skeleton is the 3M. 3M refers to the health the dummy has.
Honestly, personal experiences and anecdotes are irrelevant. You get bullied for using the build. Find better groups to run the build with. I don't get bullied for using the build, because I run with like minded people. It's is an easy fix to make. Don't play the game with people who don't want to play it with you the way you want to play it.
In the case of this nerf, the only thing that matters are objective numbers. And objectively, oakensoul heavy builds are going to be fine, at all levels of play. And objectively, I can hold 1 single button down for 2 minutes just as much as you can on a heavy attack build. And objectively on an oakensorc build, doing so gives you 29K DPS on the 3M dummy, without pressing a single skill. This does not require effort, this does not require timing. This require clicking and holding a trigger or mouse button, which is the minimum requirement for a heavy attack builds functionality.
I can’t always “find better groups” I work 7 days a week. I have a family to care for. When I come on if people in guilds aren’t on and I need transmuted to progress my character I have to deal with random people to do what I need to do. Not everyone is just online at the same time.
Everyone’s experience is relevant.
That’s just a snide thing to say.
I’m aware 3m refers to the health of the dummy im saying i use the normal skeleton one and never used the one to use referring too.
I mean if you want me to record my self playing holding down one button and not doing the damage you say ? I can gladly do it. I’m up for the challenge does anyone have a 3m dummy I can borrow ?
Becuase I bet you it will take me like 10
Minutes or more to kill it with much less dps. If I struggle on the basic skeleton.
The normal skeleton is the only 3M skeleton. Or at the very least, that is exactly what I am talking about.
On a trial dummy, just holding heavy attack down and not using skills nets around 70 DPS on the same build.
Your results are in sir you can see at the end of this thread in a 5 mill dummy you are not correct.
So, here is where you assess your build and see why you aren't hitting that obtainable number.
What blue CP slottables are you running?
I know you said your gear isn't fully upgraded, but that isn't going to do all that much. I am assuming you have the full sergeant and storm master setup. What is the other 1 piece set you are wearing, slimecraw is the best choice here. And your Mundus?
Of the two 5 piece sets, which are you running on your body and which on your jewelry. It makes a difference if the heavy set is on your body.
I’m using slimcraw as the monster helm.
Im using all the slottables recommended at lower amounts of points as I’m still low ep. All my gear is purple except for my staff which has a bad trait on it. 2 pieces have only divines on them. And I’m using the thief.
Once again the point is if they cut my build short farming for transmutes to make my build better will be much harder.
2 farming for xp
Will less easy due to not being able to take on world bosses anymore or things That gain more xp.
I’m well aware my build isn’t done… but the set up is by the book exactly what it needs to be for this build.
I just need more cp to add more points and to gold out my gear with better traits.
And yes 5 pieces of seargets and storm master plus slim craw with oakensoul.
And another point is why all this changes and push now if it will kick me back to this level say I gain 28k form these changes wil be knocked back down to 25 k anyway 🤷🏻♂️ so all this work to stay where in at and not progress.
I assure you, hitting 24K dps and losing 2-3K isn't going to impact your ability to do any of those things. As I already said, my normal build hits less than your incomplete build and it literally does all content and solos vet dungeons, trifecta Vateshran speed run craglorn vet trials, hardmodes, DLC vet dungeons and trials. All with less DPS. 20K DPS is more than enough for content in this game unless you are score pushing.
Than why was I called “pathetic” and vote kicked out of a group dungeon? The point is people do want to play with us. And especially now after the nerf.
Edit : it was wayrest sewers 1
Vet I got vote kicked too a basics started dungeon even for vet
@DarcyMardin and I recently duoed Wayrest Sewers I vet. We did have companions. My sorcerer usually does in the low 30s on a 3 million HP dummy (my second set is Spider Cultist). She usually parses less than I do.
We can duo content harder than that.Edited by FrancisCrawford on April 21, 2023 6:38PM0 -
TaSheen✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Hmm. Problem is, I personally don't do anything but solo, and mostly for my own girls I just use stam or mag enchants with either weapon or spell damage. I'm not a - gosh, I don't even know what to call it - pushing meta person maybe?
So, if others here have an idea what enchants isadoraisacat needs, speak up please. I have a master crafter who can make anything, lots of Kuta, and can get stuff from Cyro/IC easily if needed.______________________________________________________
"But even in books, the heroes make mistakes, and there isn't always a happy ending." Mercedes Lackey, Into the West
PC NA, PC EU (non steam)- four accounts, many alts....0 -
isadoraisacat✭✭✭✭✭FrancisCrawford wrote: »isadoraisacat wrote: »isadoraisacat wrote: »isadoraisacat wrote: »isadoraisacat wrote: »isadoraisacat wrote: »isadoraisacat wrote: »isadoraisacat wrote: »isadoraisacat wrote: »SerafinaWaterstar wrote: »I do not understand the devs reasoning - so what if the HA builds were reaching or in rare cases surpassing LA builds?
Where does it state that LA builds are the ‘sanctioned’ build?
This is not, as many have said previously, “Play how you like” 🤣
(And way to go to discriminate against those that find LA weaving/bar swapping difficult due to disabilities)
It says on the steam page basically play how you want. So I’d gather there is no developer determined set way to play. So I’d hope they would reconsider these changes.
Play how you want only means that there is various levels of content for different people.
Do you want to fish, you can do that. Do you want to pick flowers, you can do that too. PVP, Trials, solo content, overland questing, you can do all of that as well. You can pick the things you want to do, and do those things.
Play how you want DOES NOT mean that you can do all of those things with anything. You need to be properly equipped/prepared for them. You may want to fish, but you must have the necessary bait to do so. You may want to pick flowers, but certain CP and skill points are going to be necessary to be most efficient at it.
You can PVP, but if you don't equip yourself properly, you are not going to be effective.
Play how you want does not mean that whatever way you want to approach the different parts of content available are going to work. You can farm gear all you want, but it won't win you a ToT match or build your ToT deck. Just like being ill-equipped for PVE content isn't going to get you through that content.
That is all, it is available for you to do. But you still have to prepare yourself properly for it.
I don’t see a “play how you want as long as it’s weaving” in this anywhere.
This is not what we are talking about.
It says mix different armors and skills
Together for your own play style what is storm master / sergeant and oaken soul? And the associated dots we use with the build it’s all armors and skills. Seems like we are following zos meaning perfectly here with a HA build.
Mix any armors and skills. But if we can't agree that someone running Armor Master and Adept rider, and using only tank and healing skills, is going to be flat out awful in a DPS role in PVE content, then I really don't even know how to continue this conversation.
You can play any content you want, you can wear any set or no set at all. But you still need to make sure what you are wearing is effective for the content you want to do. It's that simple.
None of this even matters, because Storm Masters and Sergeant's will still be perfectly viable for vet content, including trials, next patch. But, you can also wear another set instead of Storm Masters and be just as viable. Because the DPs loss isn't that bad. It's not bad at all.
I even did some math in the other thread, I'll even add some more here.
On LIVE right now, on a Storm Master and Sergeants Oaken sorc build.
With pets out, but Zero skills being activated. Just holding the heavy attack button. The build does 29K DPS on a 3 million dummy. The base one, with no pen or debuffs. 29K DPS.
Activating skills bumps that up to 33K DPS. So, Heavy attacks+Storm Master +Sergeants+Shock enchant = 29K DPS.
That combo is roughly 87% of the 33K DPs parse.
So, a baseline of 29K DPS on that 3M with doing nothing but holding heavy attack. That portion of the parse is the only part that is losing damage. So let's say the doomsaying 20% amount that keeps getting thrown around, that means that portion will do 23.2K DPS + now the skills portion of the parse, you get 28.2K DPS, an overall 15% nerf to a full parse.
That 15% is worst case scenario, and as others have already shown, not the actual case. But even so, using your 25K limit, that 15% nerf is 21K damage.
Honestly, if people are going to reject a player for 21K DPS on a 3M dummy, they were going to reject you for 25K. Especially when a 29K parse on a 3M is possible without activating any skills and just heavy attacking.
At the same time, plenty of groups literally don't care as long as you aren't dying or not following mechanics.
Clearly the set up was affective we wouldn’t be here if it wasn’t the case.
[snip]
I am literally showing you the numbers from the oakenbuild I use and have saved in my armorer. I cleared VMA on it this morning for my best score ever, and I run it in vet trials.
The nerf in PTS is nothing of any import on the build. It will be fine post nerf and still be stronger than the average solo DPS setup.
If we really want to make a comparison, my two bar solo build also does vet content, including vet trials and dungeons, and barely does 22K DPS on the 3M dummy. This heavy attack build does 10K more DPS, and even after the nerf will still do at least 5K more DPS. And no-one has turned down my solo build for vet content because I know how to do the role and I don't try to do trifecta prog groups. I play with like-minded players. And if your build is doing 20K+ DPS on a 3M dummy, it is effective enough for all content in the game.
And I’m literally sharing my experiences that I’ve been bullied for using this build. I’ve been kicked out a group dungeons at the last boss and mocked.
I don’t know which dummy is 3m I’m referring to the standard skeleton dummy not the parsing high end one with all the buffs I never did that dummy as I don’t have one.
You can’t compare your self to me we are different people different players with different abilities different disabilities and different levels of experience.
The skeleton is the 3M. 3M refers to the health the dummy has.
Honestly, personal experiences and anecdotes are irrelevant. You get bullied for using the build. Find better groups to run the build with. I don't get bullied for using the build, because I run with like minded people. It's is an easy fix to make. Don't play the game with people who don't want to play it with you the way you want to play it.
In the case of this nerf, the only thing that matters are objective numbers. And objectively, oakensoul heavy builds are going to be fine, at all levels of play. And objectively, I can hold 1 single button down for 2 minutes just as much as you can on a heavy attack build. And objectively on an oakensorc build, doing so gives you 29K DPS on the 3M dummy, without pressing a single skill. This does not require effort, this does not require timing. This require clicking and holding a trigger or mouse button, which is the minimum requirement for a heavy attack builds functionality.
I can’t always “find better groups” I work 7 days a week. I have a family to care for. When I come on if people in guilds aren’t on and I need transmuted to progress my character I have to deal with random people to do what I need to do. Not everyone is just online at the same time.
Everyone’s experience is relevant.
That’s just a snide thing to say.
I’m aware 3m refers to the health of the dummy im saying i use the normal skeleton one and never used the one to use referring too.
I mean if you want me to record my self playing holding down one button and not doing the damage you say ? I can gladly do it. I’m up for the challenge does anyone have a 3m dummy I can borrow ?
Becuase I bet you it will take me like 10
Minutes or more to kill it with much less dps. If I struggle on the basic skeleton.
The normal skeleton is the only 3M skeleton. Or at the very least, that is exactly what I am talking about.
On a trial dummy, just holding heavy attack down and not using skills nets around 70 DPS on the same build.
Your results are in sir you can see at the end of this thread in a 5 mill dummy you are not correct.
So, here is where you assess your build and see why you aren't hitting that obtainable number.
What blue CP slottables are you running?
I know you said your gear isn't fully upgraded, but that isn't going to do all that much. I am assuming you have the full sergeant and storm master setup. What is the other 1 piece set you are wearing, slimecraw is the best choice here. And your Mundus?
Of the two 5 piece sets, which are you running on your body and which on your jewelry. It makes a difference if the heavy set is on your body.
I’m using slimcraw as the monster helm.
Im using all the slottables recommended at lower amounts of points as I’m still low ep. All my gear is purple except for my staff which has a bad trait on it. 2 pieces have only divines on them. And I’m using the thief.
Once again the point is if they cut my build short farming for transmutes to make my build better will be much harder.
2 farming for xp
Will less easy due to not being able to take on world bosses anymore or things That gain more xp.
I’m well aware my build isn’t done… but the set up is by the book exactly what it needs to be for this build.
I just need more cp to add more points and to gold out my gear with better traits.
And yes 5 pieces of seargets and storm master plus slim craw with oakensoul.
And another point is why all this changes and push now if it will kick me back to this level say I gain 28k form these changes wil be knocked back down to 25 k anyway 🤷🏻♂️ so all this work to stay where in at and not progress.
I assure you, hitting 24K dps and losing 2-3K isn't going to impact your ability to do any of those things. As I already said, my normal build hits less than your incomplete build and it literally does all content and solos vet dungeons, trifecta Vateshran speed run craglorn vet trials, hardmodes, DLC vet dungeons and trials. All with less DPS. 20K DPS is more than enough for content in this game unless you are score pushing.
Than why was I called “pathetic” and vote kicked out of a group dungeon? The point is people do want to play with us. And especially now after the nerf.
Edit : it was wayrest sewers 1
Vet I got vote kicked too a basics started dungeon even for vet
@DarcyMardin and I recently soloed Wayrest II. We did have companions. My sorcerer usually does in the low 30s on a 3 million HP dummy (my second set is Spider Cultist). She usually parses less than I do.
We can duo content harder than that.
Nice eventually that sort of thing is my goal but I need a little more work on my build. My personal end game is to finish the solo arenas in the hardest mode. Than retire and work on only crafting a massive home. and questing. Than maybe become a healer with a new character.0 -
Galeriano✭✭✭✭✭
✭isadoraisacat wrote: »CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »isadoraisacat wrote: »CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »isadoraisacat wrote: »isadoraisacat wrote: »isadoraisacat wrote: »isadoraisacat wrote: »isadoraisacat wrote: »CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »isadoraisacat wrote: »Wow, I'm pleasantly surprised by the overwhelming number of replies! Thank you to everyone who took the time to share their thoughts on this topic. It's great to see so many insightful comments.
Hopefully, ZOS will take note of the community's concerns and reconsider their proposed changes to Storm Master and Empower before they go live with Necrom. I've noticed that there have been some misunderstandings regarding the extent of the nerf, with some suggesting it's only up to around 6%. However, I want to clarify that the numbers I provided earlier are not mere estimations or guesses, but actual results obtained from testing DPS in combat. So here are the accurate numbers once again.
SM Live vs PTS
-23.99% max DPS (-17.82% avg DPS)
The above DPS loss will be even worse in actual combat scenarios, because Storm Master uptimes (and thus DPS) are likely to decrease even further. This is due to the fact that if a player misses the 3-second window to deal critical damage (which is common since most HA builds have a critical chance of around 40-50%), the Storm Master buff falls off.
By the way, it's worth noting that the Undaunted Infiltrator set is not a viable alternative to Storm Master. In fact, it still falls short in comparison. Here's why:
SM Live vs Undaunted Infiltrator (UI) PTS
-24.96% max DPS (-20.64% avg DPS)
If you're interested in verifying these test results for yourself, it's easy to do so by logging into the PTS. Here are some more details on how to replicate the experiment:
Test Assumptions:- The purpose of this test is to evaluate how the proposed changes affect Heavy Attack DPS, so we are only interested in sets and abilities that are specific to Heavy Attack builds. Therefore, we will exclude sets and abilities that are not relevant to this test, such as Pillar of Nirn and Volatile Familiar.
- To minimize confounding factors and isolate the variables under test, we need to control for various factors such as differences in builds, classes, player skill level, and random variations caused by Critical Rating and Critical Damage. The controlled variables for this experiment are:
- The combat ruleset (live vs PTS)
- The 5-piece body set used (Storm Master and Undaunted Infiltrator).
Body
1x L Slimecraw
1x Sergeant (heavy)
5x Strom Master or Undaunted Infiltrator (both medium)
Bar & Accessories
Sergeant's Mail (lightning, neck, ring)
Oakensoul Ring
Same abilities, attributes, CPs, mundus, and target dummy for every test build.
To minimize the impact of player-executed rotation on the test results, we used Heavy Attack weaving as the rotation for this experiment. The rotation used was as follows:- Wall
- Heavy Attack
- Heavy Attack
- Heavy Attack
- Heavy Attack
Results - see the beginning of this post (for details please see the image)
TL;DR
To summarize:
Based on the data collected, it appears that the proposed changes will result in a significant nerf to the maximum achievable Heavy Attack damage, with a reduction of approximately -24%. It's important to note that this test was conducted on a stationary target. In actual combat scenarios, Storm Master uptimes (and thus DPS) are likely to decrease even further. This is due to the fact that if a player misses the 3-second window to deal critical damage (which is common since most HA builds have a critical chance of around 40-50%), the Storm Master buff falls off.
I don’t think people realize how deadly of a hit this is giving to ha builds. I think it may render some of our builds for us low dps solo players useless.
I guess it’s back to sucking wind and doing quests with as little combat as possible now and not being able to use all the content I pay for. Unless they review these things and decide not to move forward with this.
Personally I was happy with my main character the dps I was getting for now and the content I was able to do because of it it (even tho it still needs a ton of work I was Still is a much better place I’d never reach other wise without this ).
Sorry, but the test you quoted is not accurate. One can't test the DPS loss like that because it will not be an accurate assessment on the impact of the build. You need to test the entire build or the numbers will be greatly skewed.
When testing a full build on PTS vs Live, you only see a 6% damage loss. This is because, while the nerf to Storm Master's may impact your HA damage by 20% or so, wearing it in tandem with other sets will mitigate that loss. HA damage also only accounts for around 70% of the DPS of a HA build, so your overall dps is not impacted by 20% like the quoted test states.
You can check my post in the PTS forum for an accurate comparison between full parses.
Oh ok. Well for someone like me who is only hitting 25k dps half finished with their build it’s a massive hit to me and will further make it harder to finish my build that’s already been nerfed.
It’s almost like you are defending the changes because it’s what you wanted it. Trust me I’ll never be able to out parse you lol
It’s not my goal. I was shooting for 30-40 k max and I’m only at 25k I’m striving to focus on the solo arenas and many people like me aren’t hitting high dps or even affect your groups what so ever.
Make a parse on 21M trial dummy not 3/6M one. It gives more reliable starting point to know where are You at with Your DPS.
I unfortunately don’t have one and my guild as far as I know doesn’t have one either.
You can teleport to the house of someone who have one if it's an open house. Just type this command in chat /script JumpToHouse("@house owner ID") and You will be able to teleport to the house of someone who have 21M trial dummy. So now just ask around for someone on Your server who have free to visit house with a trial dummy. There is plenty of people like that.
I’ll ask I don’t know anyone who has one and i do not believe my guilds have them.
But I’m telling your right now I’m not going to be holding down one button slaying gods it will be a very low and sad number. You are reallY overestimating it.
It's not that like have any expectations towards Your DPS. I just said that trial dummy is a more reliable source of data. You can also ask around for people like that in zone chats.
Just did a target blood nignt and got 19k dps
Once again this is holding down just the one button no dots. People are gravely over estimating the dps
Edit : with pets out but not activating them so without pets even less damage
This is actually what You can do just by holding down one button. You can literally put something heavy on LMB leave the room and still get over 80k.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pOBjX6xPw20
Except I held down one button wether it’s me or a “book” holding it down its 19k not 80k. It feels like people are saying these things because they hate the play style and want to mock it.
Were you doing it on an Iron Atronach dummy? Iron atronach dummy will give you extra buffs; when people talk about these crazy high 70k+ parses they're talking about it on that dummy - everyone (or at least, everyone comparing parses) uses the Iron Atro dummy for standardization purposes.
No normal regular dummies no special buff ones I don’t even know anyone who has those to try
19k on a normal dummy should be 50k+ on an iron atronach dummy, so you arent as far behind as you'd think.
Cool I’ll feel more confident if I can find a way to test it myself. Hopefully someone has one to try out.
What platform are You on?0 -
CameraBeardThePirate✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭isadoraisacat wrote: »isadoraisacat wrote: »Yeah I don’t have gold enchants yet either I’m not capable of making them yet but yeah mostly meant getting divines on all my gear / gold staff with best trait best enchants etc but I’m very far from being able to do all
That
If you're on PC NA or PC EU, tell me what enchants you need and how many of each type and I will craft them for you (no charge) and send them along tomorrow. I would need your in game ID of course.
Oh wow thanks a lot. I’m on NA server pc.
My id should be the same as my idea here isadoraisacat
Well for my staff I definitely want the one that gives the most damage for staff. Than for my jewelry and amors prob ones that gives the most boost to magic (I actually don’t know a lot about enchanting ) so maybe you can recommend?
Either use poison or shock enchant on the staff, all magicka Glyphs on the armor, all physical or magical harm Glyphs on jewelry (really doesn't matter as the only difference is a slight bit of stam or mag sustain)Edited by CameraBeardThePirate on April 20, 2023 11:22PM1 -
isadoraisacat✭✭✭✭✭isadoraisacat wrote: »CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »isadoraisacat wrote: »CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »isadoraisacat wrote: »isadoraisacat wrote: »isadoraisacat wrote: »isadoraisacat wrote: »isadoraisacat wrote: »CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »isadoraisacat wrote: »Wow, I'm pleasantly surprised by the overwhelming number of replies! Thank you to everyone who took the time to share their thoughts on this topic. It's great to see so many insightful comments.
Hopefully, ZOS will take note of the community's concerns and reconsider their proposed changes to Storm Master and Empower before they go live with Necrom. I've noticed that there have been some misunderstandings regarding the extent of the nerf, with some suggesting it's only up to around 6%. However, I want to clarify that the numbers I provided earlier are not mere estimations or guesses, but actual results obtained from testing DPS in combat. So here are the accurate numbers once again.
SM Live vs PTS
-23.99% max DPS (-17.82% avg DPS)
The above DPS loss will be even worse in actual combat scenarios, because Storm Master uptimes (and thus DPS) are likely to decrease even further. This is due to the fact that if a player misses the 3-second window to deal critical damage (which is common since most HA builds have a critical chance of around 40-50%), the Storm Master buff falls off.
By the way, it's worth noting that the Undaunted Infiltrator set is not a viable alternative to Storm Master. In fact, it still falls short in comparison. Here's why:
SM Live vs Undaunted Infiltrator (UI) PTS
-24.96% max DPS (-20.64% avg DPS)
If you're interested in verifying these test results for yourself, it's easy to do so by logging into the PTS. Here are some more details on how to replicate the experiment:
Test Assumptions:- The purpose of this test is to evaluate how the proposed changes affect Heavy Attack DPS, so we are only interested in sets and abilities that are specific to Heavy Attack builds. Therefore, we will exclude sets and abilities that are not relevant to this test, such as Pillar of Nirn and Volatile Familiar.
- To minimize confounding factors and isolate the variables under test, we need to control for various factors such as differences in builds, classes, player skill level, and random variations caused by Critical Rating and Critical Damage. The controlled variables for this experiment are:
- The combat ruleset (live vs PTS)
- The 5-piece body set used (Storm Master and Undaunted Infiltrator).
Body
1x L Slimecraw
1x Sergeant (heavy)
5x Strom Master or Undaunted Infiltrator (both medium)
Bar & Accessories
Sergeant's Mail (lightning, neck, ring)
Oakensoul Ring
Same abilities, attributes, CPs, mundus, and target dummy for every test build.
To minimize the impact of player-executed rotation on the test results, we used Heavy Attack weaving as the rotation for this experiment. The rotation used was as follows:- Wall
- Heavy Attack
- Heavy Attack
- Heavy Attack
- Heavy Attack
Results - see the beginning of this post (for details please see the image)
TL;DR
To summarize:
Based on the data collected, it appears that the proposed changes will result in a significant nerf to the maximum achievable Heavy Attack damage, with a reduction of approximately -24%. It's important to note that this test was conducted on a stationary target. In actual combat scenarios, Storm Master uptimes (and thus DPS) are likely to decrease even further. This is due to the fact that if a player misses the 3-second window to deal critical damage (which is common since most HA builds have a critical chance of around 40-50%), the Storm Master buff falls off.
I don’t think people realize how deadly of a hit this is giving to ha builds. I think it may render some of our builds for us low dps solo players useless.
I guess it’s back to sucking wind and doing quests with as little combat as possible now and not being able to use all the content I pay for. Unless they review these things and decide not to move forward with this.
Personally I was happy with my main character the dps I was getting for now and the content I was able to do because of it it (even tho it still needs a ton of work I was Still is a much better place I’d never reach other wise without this ).
Sorry, but the test you quoted is not accurate. One can't test the DPS loss like that because it will not be an accurate assessment on the impact of the build. You need to test the entire build or the numbers will be greatly skewed.
When testing a full build on PTS vs Live, you only see a 6% damage loss. This is because, while the nerf to Storm Master's may impact your HA damage by 20% or so, wearing it in tandem with other sets will mitigate that loss. HA damage also only accounts for around 70% of the DPS of a HA build, so your overall dps is not impacted by 20% like the quoted test states.
You can check my post in the PTS forum for an accurate comparison between full parses.
Oh ok. Well for someone like me who is only hitting 25k dps half finished with their build it’s a massive hit to me and will further make it harder to finish my build that’s already been nerfed.
It’s almost like you are defending the changes because it’s what you wanted it. Trust me I’ll never be able to out parse you lol
It’s not my goal. I was shooting for 30-40 k max and I’m only at 25k I’m striving to focus on the solo arenas and many people like me aren’t hitting high dps or even affect your groups what so ever.
Make a parse on 21M trial dummy not 3/6M one. It gives more reliable starting point to know where are You at with Your DPS.
I unfortunately don’t have one and my guild as far as I know doesn’t have one either.
You can teleport to the house of someone who have one if it's an open house. Just type this command in chat /script JumpToHouse("@house owner ID") and You will be able to teleport to the house of someone who have 21M trial dummy. So now just ask around for someone on Your server who have free to visit house with a trial dummy. There is plenty of people like that.
I’ll ask I don’t know anyone who has one and i do not believe my guilds have them.
But I’m telling your right now I’m not going to be holding down one button slaying gods it will be a very low and sad number. You are reallY overestimating it.
It's not that like have any expectations towards Your DPS. I just said that trial dummy is a more reliable source of data. You can also ask around for people like that in zone chats.
Just did a target blood nignt and got 19k dps
Once again this is holding down just the one button no dots. People are gravely over estimating the dps
Edit : with pets out but not activating them so without pets even less damage
This is actually what You can do just by holding down one button. You can literally put something heavy on LMB leave the room and still get over 80k.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pOBjX6xPw20
Except I held down one button wether it’s me or a “book” holding it down its 19k not 80k. It feels like people are saying these things because they hate the play style and want to mock it.
Were you doing it on an Iron Atronach dummy? Iron atronach dummy will give you extra buffs; when people talk about these crazy high 70k+ parses they're talking about it on that dummy - everyone (or at least, everyone comparing parses) uses the Iron Atro dummy for standardization purposes.
No normal regular dummies no special buff ones I don’t even know anyone who has those to try
19k on a normal dummy should be 50k+ on an iron atronach dummy, so you arent as far behind as you'd think.
Cool I’ll feel more confident if I can find a way to test it myself. Hopefully someone has one to try out.
What platform are You on?
PC NA0 -
isadoraisacat✭✭✭✭✭CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »isadoraisacat wrote: »isadoraisacat wrote: »Yeah I don’t have gold enchants yet either I’m not capable of making them yet but yeah mostly meant getting divines on all my gear / gold staff with best trait best enchants etc but I’m very far from being able to do all
That
If you're on PC NA or PC EU, tell me what enchants you need and how many of each type and I will craft them for you (no charge) and send them along tomorrow. I would need your in game ID of course.
Oh wow thanks a lot. I’m on NA server pc.
My id should be the same as my idea here isadoraisacat
Well for my staff I definitely want the one that gives the most damage for staff. Than for my jewelry and amors prob ones that gives the most boost to magic (I actually don’t know a lot about enchanting ) so maybe you can recommend?
Either use poison or shock enchant on the staff, all magicka Glyphs on the armor, all physical or magical harm Glyphs on jewelry (really doesn't matter as the only difference is a slight bit of stam or mag sustain)
Ok cool yeah I’m a magsorc
Poison really ? I thought that would be for a non magic build. And that’s better than a weapon damage one ? I think on it now it’s “life drain” which is useless as my pet can heal me to full very fast plus my companion who is a healer anyway.0 -
CameraBeardThePirate✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭isadoraisacat wrote: »CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »isadoraisacat wrote: »isadoraisacat wrote: »Yeah I don’t have gold enchants yet either I’m not capable of making them yet but yeah mostly meant getting divines on all my gear / gold staff with best trait best enchants etc but I’m very far from being able to do all
That
If you're on PC NA or PC EU, tell me what enchants you need and how many of each type and I will craft them for you (no charge) and send them along tomorrow. I would need your in game ID of course.
Oh wow thanks a lot. I’m on NA server pc.
My id should be the same as my idea here isadoraisacat
Well for my staff I definitely want the one that gives the most damage for staff. Than for my jewelry and amors prob ones that gives the most boost to magic (I actually don’t know a lot about enchanting ) so maybe you can recommend?
Either use poison or shock enchant on the staff, all magicka Glyphs on the armor, all physical or magical harm Glyphs on jewelry (really doesn't matter as the only difference is a slight bit of stam or mag sustain)
Ok cool yeah I’m a magsorc
Poison really ? I thought that would be for a non magic build. And that’s better than a weapon damage one ? I think on it now it’s “life drain” which is useless as my pet can heal me to full very fast plus my companion who is a healer anyway.
From people smarter than me, on an Oakenbuild the weapon damage Berserk glyph doesn't outperform Poison or Flame. Poison or flame (same dps) will be the highest damage in a group setting, and shock will likely eek out Poison or flame in a more solo setting (as you'll have better minor Vulnerability uptime)Edited by CameraBeardThePirate on April 20, 2023 11:26PM1 -
TaSheen✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »isadoraisacat wrote: »isadoraisacat wrote: »Yeah I don’t have gold enchants yet either I’m not capable of making them yet but yeah mostly meant getting divines on all my gear / gold staff with best trait best enchants etc but I’m very far from being able to do all
That
If you're on PC NA or PC EU, tell me what enchants you need and how many of each type and I will craft them for you (no charge) and send them along tomorrow. I would need your in game ID of course.
Oh wow thanks a lot. I’m on NA server pc.
My id should be the same as my idea here isadoraisacat
Well for my staff I definitely want the one that gives the most damage for staff. Than for my jewelry and amors prob ones that gives the most boost to magic (I actually don’t know a lot about enchanting ) so maybe you can recommend?
Either use poison or shock enchant on the staff, all magicka Glyphs on the armor, all physical or magical harm Glyphs on jewelry (really doesn't matter as the only difference is a slight bit of stam or mag sustain)
Okay, thanks - I'm assuming from what I've seen of your posts that you have a good grasp of where she wants to go as for enchants to help her toward more damage and sustain.
I'll wait for others to chime in, but I'll be in game first thing in my morning, and whatever the consensus is, I'll get it crafted and on it's way.
@isadoraisacat - if you get the enchants applied, and they don't seem to do what you expected, just post back, and we'll see what might need tweaking. I can make glyphs forever, so not to worry.Edited by TaSheen on April 20, 2023 11:28PM______________________________________________________
"But even in books, the heroes make mistakes, and there isn't always a happy ending." Mercedes Lackey, Into the West
PC NA, PC EU (non steam)- four accounts, many alts....2 -
isadoraisacat✭✭✭✭✭CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »isadoraisacat wrote: »CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »isadoraisacat wrote: »isadoraisacat wrote: »Yeah I don’t have gold enchants yet either I’m not capable of making them yet but yeah mostly meant getting divines on all my gear / gold staff with best trait best enchants etc but I’m very far from being able to do all
That
If you're on PC NA or PC EU, tell me what enchants you need and how many of each type and I will craft them for you (no charge) and send them along tomorrow. I would need your in game ID of course.
Oh wow thanks a lot. I’m on NA server pc.
My id should be the same as my idea here isadoraisacat
Well for my staff I definitely want the one that gives the most damage for staff. Than for my jewelry and amors prob ones that gives the most boost to magic (I actually don’t know a lot about enchanting ) so maybe you can recommend?
Either use poison or shock enchant on the staff, all magicka Glyphs on the armor, all physical or magical harm Glyphs on jewelry (really doesn't matter as the only difference is a slight bit of stam or mag sustain)
Ok cool yeah I’m a magsorc
Poison really ? I thought that would be for a non magic build. And that’s better than a weapon damage one ? I think on it now it’s “life drain” which is useless as my pet can heal me to full very fast plus my companion who is a healer anyway.
From people smarter than me, on an Oakenbuild the weapon damage Berserk glyph doesn't outperform Poison or Flame. Poison or flame (same dps) will be the highest damage in a group setting, and shock will likely eek out Poison or flame in a more solo setting (as you'll have better minor Vulnerability uptime)
Since I’m mostly solo save for some group stuff but focus on solo what would you recommend that would also work still if I ended up in a nornal dungeon or vet dungeon at some point ?0 -
isadoraisacat✭✭✭✭✭CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »isadoraisacat wrote: »isadoraisacat wrote: »Yeah I don’t have gold enchants yet either I’m not capable of making them yet but yeah mostly meant getting divines on all my gear / gold staff with best trait best enchants etc but I’m very far from being able to do all
That
If you're on PC NA or PC EU, tell me what enchants you need and how many of each type and I will craft them for you (no charge) and send them along tomorrow. I would need your in game ID of course.
Oh wow thanks a lot. I’m on NA server pc.
My id should be the same as my idea here isadoraisacat
Well for my staff I definitely want the one that gives the most damage for staff. Than for my jewelry and amors prob ones that gives the most boost to magic (I actually don’t know a lot about enchanting ) so maybe you can recommend?
Either use poison or shock enchant on the staff, all magicka Glyphs on the armor, all physical or magical harm Glyphs on jewelry (really doesn't matter as the only difference is a slight bit of stam or mag sustain)
Okay, thanks - I'm assuming from what I've seen of your posts that you have a good grasp of where she wants to go as for enchants to help her toward more damage and sustain.
I'll wait for others to chime in, but I'll be in game first thing in my morning, and whatever the consensus is, I'll get it crafted and on it's way.
@isadoraisacat - if you get the enchants applied, and they don't seem to do what you expected, just post back, and we'll see what might need tweaking. I can make glyphs forever, so not to worry.
Thanks a lot for the help !!!! I appreciate it !
Yeah I think I’ll trust everyone input at this point as I’ve said so many times I’m not an expert by any means that is my main issue here. Thanks again0 -
CameraBeardThePirate✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭isadoraisacat wrote: »CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »isadoraisacat wrote: »CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »isadoraisacat wrote: »isadoraisacat wrote: »Yeah I don’t have gold enchants yet either I’m not capable of making them yet but yeah mostly meant getting divines on all my gear / gold staff with best trait best enchants etc but I’m very far from being able to do all
That
If you're on PC NA or PC EU, tell me what enchants you need and how many of each type and I will craft them for you (no charge) and send them along tomorrow. I would need your in game ID of course.
Oh wow thanks a lot. I’m on NA server pc.
My id should be the same as my idea here isadoraisacat
Well for my staff I definitely want the one that gives the most damage for staff. Than for my jewelry and amors prob ones that gives the most boost to magic (I actually don’t know a lot about enchanting ) so maybe you can recommend?
Either use poison or shock enchant on the staff, all magicka Glyphs on the armor, all physical or magical harm Glyphs on jewelry (really doesn't matter as the only difference is a slight bit of stam or mag sustain)
Ok cool yeah I’m a magsorc
Poison really ? I thought that would be for a non magic build. And that’s better than a weapon damage one ? I think on it now it’s “life drain” which is useless as my pet can heal me to full very fast plus my companion who is a healer anyway.
From people smarter than me, on an Oakenbuild the weapon damage Berserk glyph doesn't outperform Poison or Flame. Poison or flame (same dps) will be the highest damage in a group setting, and shock will likely eek out Poison or flame in a more solo setting (as you'll have better minor Vulnerability uptime)
Since I’m mostly solo save for some group stuff but focus on solo what would you recommend that would also work still if I ended up in a nornal dungeon or vet dungeon at some point ?
I'll be honest: the difference is likely marginal. If you're mostly solo I'd go with shock - it'll be a little more bursty for your everyday mobs and in dungeons it'll do almost as well as poison (maybe even better if no one else is providing good Minor Vulnerability uptime).1 -
TaSheen✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I like to help when I can. I'm not very "up" on specifics for a build like yours and what you want to do, so that's why I'm waiting to see what else pops out of the posters here, and also why I'm happy to make changes as new info is offered.
I'm a putzer - I solo, I have so many alts people think I don't know what about me, but I love the game, and if I can make your life easier, that's something I want to do.______________________________________________________
"But even in books, the heroes make mistakes, and there isn't always a happy ending." Mercedes Lackey, Into the West
PC NA, PC EU (non steam)- four accounts, many alts....2 -
isadoraisacat✭✭✭✭✭I like to help when I can. I'm not very "up" on specifics for a build like yours and what you want to do, so that's why I'm waiting to see what else pops out of the posters here, and also why I'm happy to make changes as new info is offered.
I'm a putzer - I solo, I have so many alts people think I don't know what about me, but I love the game, and if I can make your life easier, that's something I want to do.
Thank you it’s very helpful.
I think after I finish all I want with this character and “retire” I do the same in Skyrim. I’m going to focus on being a healer. But that a while away.0 -
isadoraisacat✭✭✭✭✭CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »isadoraisacat wrote: »CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »isadoraisacat wrote: »CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »isadoraisacat wrote: »isadoraisacat wrote: »Yeah I don’t have gold enchants yet either I’m not capable of making them yet but yeah mostly meant getting divines on all my gear / gold staff with best trait best enchants etc but I’m very far from being able to do all
That
If you're on PC NA or PC EU, tell me what enchants you need and how many of each type and I will craft them for you (no charge) and send them along tomorrow. I would need your in game ID of course.
Oh wow thanks a lot. I’m on NA server pc.
My id should be the same as my idea here isadoraisacat
Well for my staff I definitely want the one that gives the most damage for staff. Than for my jewelry and amors prob ones that gives the most boost to magic (I actually don’t know a lot about enchanting ) so maybe you can recommend?
Either use poison or shock enchant on the staff, all magicka Glyphs on the armor, all physical or magical harm Glyphs on jewelry (really doesn't matter as the only difference is a slight bit of stam or mag sustain)
Ok cool yeah I’m a magsorc
Poison really ? I thought that would be for a non magic build. And that’s better than a weapon damage one ? I think on it now it’s “life drain” which is useless as my pet can heal me to full very fast plus my companion who is a healer anyway.
From people smarter than me, on an Oakenbuild the weapon damage Berserk glyph doesn't outperform Poison or Flame. Poison or flame (same dps) will be the highest damage in a group setting, and shock will likely eek out Poison or flame in a more solo setting (as you'll have better minor Vulnerability uptime)
Since I’m mostly solo save for some group stuff but focus on solo what would you recommend that would also work still if I ended up in a nornal dungeon or vet dungeon at some point ?
I'll be honest: the difference is likely marginal. If you're mostly solo I'd go with shock - it'll be a little more bursty for your everyday mobs and in dungeons it'll do almost as well as poison (maybe even better if no one else is providing good Minor Vulnerability uptime).
Cool thanks for the info! I honestly did not know anything about enchants becuase I can’t make good ones yet. Maybe with those added it will improve things. ALOT and even it out I hope0
This discussion has been closed.