Thoughts of a Random Guy on Necrom Changes to HA / Heavy-Attack builds & on Arcanist

TaSheen

@SerafinaWaterstar - I'd give you a million awesomes if I could!

SerafinaWaterstar

Galeriano wrote: »

Tradewind wrote: »

INM wrote: »

Sorry, i'm just don't follow on what are you trying to imply, I'm not justifing nerfs of HA, I'm explaying why it's impossible to "not nerf". Even with nerfs, top times in vSA + 2 has dropped from 7:31 to 1:56 in 4 years. Without nerfs in could be like sub minute, I dunno.

In you opinion this: this is more fair than complete vAS+2 in 1:56?

Both are fair. Both were done by a group of very skilled players mastering their craft for years.

It's like asking is Usain Bolt existance is fair. Do You think everyone should be given some performance enhancing drugs because there are some sprinters who can run exceptionally fast without them?

This is like telling those running against Usain Bolt that they have to run with ankle weights.

Galeriano

SerafinaWaterstar wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

Tradewind wrote: »

INM wrote: »

Sorry, i'm just don't follow on what are you trying to imply, I'm not justifing nerfs of HA, I'm explaying why it's impossible to "not nerf". Even with nerfs, top times in vSA + 2 has dropped from 7:31 to 1:56 in 4 years. Without nerfs in could be like sub minute, I dunno.

In you opinion this: this is more fair than complete vAS+2 in 1:56?

Both are fair. Both were done by a group of very skilled players mastering their craft for years.

It's like asking is Usain Bolt existance is fair. Do You think everyone should be given some performance enhancing drugs because there are some sprinters who can run exceptionally fast without them?

This is like telling those running against Usain Bolt that they have to run with ankle weights.

It really isn't but You're free to elaborate on why You think otherwise.

isadoraisacat

Sad things were getting more peaceful in this thread I guess it’s heading back down the road it was at before. I said my peace I hope zos reads our complaints. I hope they start to consider these changes are not what’s best for the majority of the player base and excludes many players.

isadoraisacat

https://youtu.be/tqrFxFCQbak

Someone made a video comparing the pts and live towards the end of the video you can def it takes major hit still in my opinion. I think lower end players like me will be way more affected in solo content / wold bosses / solo arenas or even trying to attempt duengons solo. I think it will still be viable but definitely took a massive hit. If they do anymore nerfs to it tho I think we are done unfortunately.

BaalMelqartu

@isadoraisacat Thanks for posting this.

isadoraisacat

BaalMelqartu wrote: »

@isadoraisacat Thanks for posting this.

No problem. I think it best displays what’s going on. Clearly the build isn’t ruined but it is greatly affected. I think if they push the nerf any further than what is shown here we will have find a new way.

It feels like arcanist has a play style that would work for those who prefer a more relaxed style and the new mythic however I don’t want to start with a new class and new character I want to continue my main character.

nokturnihs

jaws343 wrote: »

loveeso wrote: »

I agree with most of what has been written in the above comments apart from the following (these suggest replying without reading what the OP wrote ) 👇

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

Or.... you could save money and spend that time farming skill points. I never have to use the armorer because i have enough skill points for a PvP build + a PvE build without having to respec.

And spending the time to farm skill points is an investment, saving you countless hours and gold in the future.

It doesn’t have much to do with skill points. Also, what if your LA & HA builds require different morphs of the same skill?
And what about Champion Points? It is okay for me to switch because I am high CP, but people with lower CP will have to pay for a respec every time they switch between LA and HA.

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

Saying 75k+ dps isn't enough to be welcome in most groups is disingenuous

It isn’t disingenuous though, is it? That’s how it is and everyone who leads trials or just does many trials a week knows it’s the truth so why deny it? Theorising is all fine but it doesn’t make sense when it contradicts reality.

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

TheDarkRuler wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

People are overreacting to the HA changes.
… its already been demonstrated that you can still hit 90k+ dps on PTS with an Oakensoul HA setup.

Show the 90k DPS build on PTS and the CMX log. I havent found any.

Even 70k dps is plenty though.

also

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

… still keeps Oakensoul HA builds at 77k - more than enough

also

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

Saying 75k+ dps isn't enough to be welcome in most groups is disingenuous

So far, you have managed to move from 90k+ to 77k to 75k to 70k each time saying such a nerf is not much. Please stop moving the goal posts to suit your narrative . In another comment you also stated that HA builds can do 110k+ on a trial dummy on the live server - come on 😆

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

… and a slight nerf to Storm Master's (which isn't even the best set in an optimized group)

But Storm Master IS the best set in optimised groups. The current meta for HA is 1pc Slime, Storm Master, Sergeant, Oakensoul. There is absolutely no doubt about it. Here you go, an example: https://www.esologs.com/reports/c6pRrqwC1VAWYnDK#fight=17&type=damage-done
I played with many people using different HA builds, I tested many builds myself (duelist, undaunted, infallible, you name it, all of them) both on a trial dummy and in real content, including DLC trial HMs - SM is BIS & everyone knows it.

TL;DR
There is no need to guess by how much these two nerfs will decrease the meta HA DPS (e.g. depending on when the Empower buff and the SM buff are in the damage calculation chain) because instead of guessing I went to the PTS server to test it and get the actual numbers. After doing that, I provided these REAL numbers (not guesses about “how they should be”) in my original post. Combined, 12.5% nerf to Empower and 60% nerf to the SM duration result in 15% to 20% DPS nerf. If you think 15-20% nerf is negligible, then we might just as well claim that having 5-pc bonuses of Depths, Pillar, Coral, and Rele sets nerfed to 0 and that would be okay too. But we all know that it is not true because no one would wear them anymore. 15-20% DPS nerf is huge.

It is okay to dislike HA builds for whatever reason but please do not reply if you do not read what others wrote first and please do not spread disinformation. Please

I run in vet trials with a guild group. We don't have any minimum dps requirements. We cleared Vet Sunspire with some DPS doing less than 50K, probably myself included. Also Vet Asylum. All craglorn hardmodes.

We are currently working our way through vet MoL. No DPs requirements.

Eventually, we will get to the other DLC trials as well. Still, all no DPs requirements.

So no, groups aren't all requiring anything.

And even if they were, the option to form your own group, with whatever build requirements you want, exists. You want heavy attack builds in the group, great, you can do that because it is your group. You want people with 30K DPS, you can do that too. Just as any other groups can set their own standards based on the experience they expect to get from the content.

Just because your guild isn't doing it doesn't mean it doesn't exist man... If that were the case one could also say "there's no crime in this city because no one I KNOW is doing it." Not how it works bud...

isadoraisacat

nokturnihs wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

loveeso wrote: »

I agree with most of what has been written in the above comments apart from the following (these suggest replying without reading what the OP wrote ) 👇

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

Or.... you could save money and spend that time farming skill points. I never have to use the armorer because i have enough skill points for a PvP build + a PvE build without having to respec.

And spending the time to farm skill points is an investment, saving you countless hours and gold in the future.

It doesn’t have much to do with skill points. Also, what if your LA & HA builds require different morphs of the same skill?
And what about Champion Points? It is okay for me to switch because I am high CP, but people with lower CP will have to pay for a respec every time they switch between LA and HA.

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

Saying 75k+ dps isn't enough to be welcome in most groups is disingenuous

It isn’t disingenuous though, is it? That’s how it is and everyone who leads trials or just does many trials a week knows it’s the truth so why deny it? Theorising is all fine but it doesn’t make sense when it contradicts reality.

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

TheDarkRuler wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

People are overreacting to the HA changes.
… its already been demonstrated that you can still hit 90k+ dps on PTS with an Oakensoul HA setup.

Show the 90k DPS build on PTS and the CMX log. I havent found any.

Even 70k dps is plenty though.

also

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

… still keeps Oakensoul HA builds at 77k - more than enough

also

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

Saying 75k+ dps isn't enough to be welcome in most groups is disingenuous

So far, you have managed to move from 90k+ to 77k to 75k to 70k each time saying such a nerf is not much. Please stop moving the goal posts to suit your narrative . In another comment you also stated that HA builds can do 110k+ on a trial dummy on the live server - come on 😆

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

… and a slight nerf to Storm Master's (which isn't even the best set in an optimized group)

But Storm Master IS the best set in optimised groups. The current meta for HA is 1pc Slime, Storm Master, Sergeant, Oakensoul. There is absolutely no doubt about it. Here you go, an example: https://www.esologs.com/reports/c6pRrqwC1VAWYnDK#fight=17&type=damage-done
I played with many people using different HA builds, I tested many builds myself (duelist, undaunted, infallible, you name it, all of them) both on a trial dummy and in real content, including DLC trial HMs - SM is BIS & everyone knows it.

TL;DR
There is no need to guess by how much these two nerfs will decrease the meta HA DPS (e.g. depending on when the Empower buff and the SM buff are in the damage calculation chain) because instead of guessing I went to the PTS server to test it and get the actual numbers. After doing that, I provided these REAL numbers (not guesses about “how they should be”) in my original post. Combined, 12.5% nerf to Empower and 60% nerf to the SM duration result in 15% to 20% DPS nerf. If you think 15-20% nerf is negligible, then we might just as well claim that having 5-pc bonuses of Depths, Pillar, Coral, and Rele sets nerfed to 0 and that would be okay too. But we all know that it is not true because no one would wear them anymore. 15-20% DPS nerf is huge.

It is okay to dislike HA builds for whatever reason but please do not reply if you do not read what others wrote first and please do not spread disinformation. Please

I run in vet trials with a guild group. We don't have any minimum dps requirements. We cleared Vet Sunspire with some DPS doing less than 50K, probably myself included. Also Vet Asylum. All craglorn hardmodes.

We are currently working our way through vet MoL. No DPs requirements.

Eventually, we will get to the other DLC trials as well. Still, all no DPs requirements.

So no, groups aren't all requiring anything.

And even if they were, the option to form your own group, with whatever build requirements you want, exists. You want heavy attack builds in the group, great, you can do that because it is your group. You want people with 30K DPS, you can do that too. Just as any other groups can set their own standards based on the experience they expect to get from the content.

Just because your guild isn't doing it doesn't mean it doesn't exist man... If that were the case one could also say "there's no crime in this city because no one I KNOW is doing it." Not how it works bud...

Except using a build isn’t a “crime” it’s a play style.

jaws343

nokturnihs wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

loveeso wrote: »

I agree with most of what has been written in the above comments apart from the following (these suggest replying without reading what the OP wrote ) 👇

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

Or.... you could save money and spend that time farming skill points. I never have to use the armorer because i have enough skill points for a PvP build + a PvE build without having to respec.

And spending the time to farm skill points is an investment, saving you countless hours and gold in the future.

It doesn’t have much to do with skill points. Also, what if your LA & HA builds require different morphs of the same skill?
And what about Champion Points? It is okay for me to switch because I am high CP, but people with lower CP will have to pay for a respec every time they switch between LA and HA.

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

Saying 75k+ dps isn't enough to be welcome in most groups is disingenuous

It isn’t disingenuous though, is it? That’s how it is and everyone who leads trials or just does many trials a week knows it’s the truth so why deny it? Theorising is all fine but it doesn’t make sense when it contradicts reality.

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

TheDarkRuler wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

People are overreacting to the HA changes.
… its already been demonstrated that you can still hit 90k+ dps on PTS with an Oakensoul HA setup.

Show the 90k DPS build on PTS and the CMX log. I havent found any.

Even 70k dps is plenty though.

also

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

… still keeps Oakensoul HA builds at 77k - more than enough

also

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

Saying 75k+ dps isn't enough to be welcome in most groups is disingenuous

So far, you have managed to move from 90k+ to 77k to 75k to 70k each time saying such a nerf is not much. Please stop moving the goal posts to suit your narrative . In another comment you also stated that HA builds can do 110k+ on a trial dummy on the live server - come on 😆

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

… and a slight nerf to Storm Master's (which isn't even the best set in an optimized group)

But Storm Master IS the best set in optimised groups. The current meta for HA is 1pc Slime, Storm Master, Sergeant, Oakensoul. There is absolutely no doubt about it. Here you go, an example: https://www.esologs.com/reports/c6pRrqwC1VAWYnDK#fight=17&type=damage-done
I played with many people using different HA builds, I tested many builds myself (duelist, undaunted, infallible, you name it, all of them) both on a trial dummy and in real content, including DLC trial HMs - SM is BIS & everyone knows it.

TL;DR
There is no need to guess by how much these two nerfs will decrease the meta HA DPS (e.g. depending on when the Empower buff and the SM buff are in the damage calculation chain) because instead of guessing I went to the PTS server to test it and get the actual numbers. After doing that, I provided these REAL numbers (not guesses about “how they should be”) in my original post. Combined, 12.5% nerf to Empower and 60% nerf to the SM duration result in 15% to 20% DPS nerf. If you think 15-20% nerf is negligible, then we might just as well claim that having 5-pc bonuses of Depths, Pillar, Coral, and Rele sets nerfed to 0 and that would be okay too. But we all know that it is not true because no one would wear them anymore. 15-20% DPS nerf is huge.

It is okay to dislike HA builds for whatever reason but please do not reply if you do not read what others wrote first and please do not spread disinformation. Please

I run in vet trials with a guild group. We don't have any minimum dps requirements. We cleared Vet Sunspire with some DPS doing less than 50K, probably myself included. Also Vet Asylum. All craglorn hardmodes.

We are currently working our way through vet MoL. No DPs requirements.

Eventually, we will get to the other DLC trials as well. Still, all no DPs requirements.

So no, groups aren't all requiring anything.

And even if they were, the option to form your own group, with whatever build requirements you want, exists. You want heavy attack builds in the group, great, you can do that because it is your group. You want people with 30K DPS, you can do that too. Just as any other groups can set their own standards based on the experience they expect to get from the content.

Just because your guild isn't doing it doesn't mean it doesn't exist man... If that were the case one could also say "there's no crime in this city because no one I KNOW is doing it." Not how it works bud...

My point is basically yours. Just because people restrict the builds that they want to run with doesn't meant that all people do that. I am not saying there aren't people who don't regulate who can join their groups, I am saying they don't matter when other types of groups exist.

It is on each player to find other players who want to participate in content in compatible ways.

It is not for groups who have already done that to change their expectations to accomodate players they don't want to play with.

Galeriano

isadoraisacat wrote: »

https://youtu.be/tqrFxFCQbak

Someone made a video comparing the pts and live towards the end of the video you can def it takes major hit still in my opinion. I think lower end players like me will be way more affected in solo content / wold bosses / solo arenas or even trying to attempt duengons solo. I think it will still be viable but definitely took a massive hit. If they do anymore nerfs to it tho I think we are done unfortunately.

This whole video is about proving this setup didn't took a major hit but You still preffer to panic. To complete everything You've listed (overland, world bosses, solo arenas) You could do half of Your current DPS and still do it with no issues. In this particular activities DPS requiremennts are set extremly low and everything boils down just to not dying from stupid.

You really need to stop panicing.

isadoraisacat

Galeriano wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

https://youtu.be/tqrFxFCQbak

Someone made a video comparing the pts and live towards the end of the video you can def it takes major hit still in my opinion. I think lower end players like me will be way more affected in solo content / wold bosses / solo arenas or even trying to attempt duengons solo. I think it will still be viable but definitely took a massive hit. If they do anymore nerfs to it tho I think we are done unfortunately.

This whole video is about proving this setup didn't took a major hit but You still preffer to panic. To complete everything You've listed (overland, world bosses, solo arenas) You could do half of Your current DPS and still do it with no issues. In this particular activities DPS requiremennts are set extremly low and everything boils down just to not dying from stupid.

You really need to stop panicing.

Half my dps is 12 my guy. There is no way I’m doing a solo arena or soloing a world boss with 12 dps.

Galeriano

isadoraisacat wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

https://youtu.be/tqrFxFCQbak

Someone made a video comparing the pts and live towards the end of the video you can def it takes major hit still in my opinion. I think lower end players like me will be way more affected in solo content / wold bosses / solo arenas or even trying to attempt duengons solo. I think it will still be viable but definitely took a massive hit. If they do anymore nerfs to it tho I think we are done unfortunately.

This whole video is about proving this setup didn't took a major hit but You still preffer to panic. To complete everything You've listed (overland, world bosses, solo arenas) You could do half of Your current DPS and still do it with no issues. In this particular activities DPS requiremennts are set extremly low and everything boils down just to not dying from stupid.

You really need to stop panicing.

Half my dps is 12 my guy. There is no way I’m doing a solo arena or soloing a world boss with 12 dps.

And 12k is enough to complete everything listed. I think it's excat value of DPS check on vet Vateshran last boss. Everything else either donm't have check or have them extremly low. Vet maelstrom is a meme at this point people have done it naked or just with light attack spam without using any ability. World bosses can easily be soloed with 12k DPS. DPS in these activities is not an issue, You just need to stay alive.

Ragnarok0130

AScarlato wrote: »

The difference with the light attack nerf is I never saw anyone asking for other players to be nerfed who are good at light attacking. I’ve seen requests for alternatives styles but not the selfish and petty cries for nerfs we HA users witnessed here. All because we can now do decent dps that is still lower than the top 2 bar La players.

I saw plenty of requests from non-end game players in the U35 turmoil/debate not only requesting that LA be nerfed but that animation cancelling that ZoS has embraced since launch be "fixed" ie removed to prevent people from LA during the "raise the floor and lower the ceiling" debates. Heck I saw this same request in this thread.

isadoraisacat

Galeriano wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

https://youtu.be/tqrFxFCQbak

Someone made a video comparing the pts and live towards the end of the video you can def it takes major hit still in my opinion. I think lower end players like me will be way more affected in solo content / wold bosses / solo arenas or even trying to attempt duengons solo. I think it will still be viable but definitely took a massive hit. If they do anymore nerfs to it tho I think we are done unfortunately.

This whole video is about proving this setup didn't took a major hit but You still preffer to panic. To complete everything You've listed (overland, world bosses, solo arenas) You could do half of Your current DPS and still do it with no issues. In this particular activities DPS requiremennts are set extremly low and everything boils down just to not dying from stupid.

You really need to stop panicing.

Half my dps is 12 my guy. There is no way I’m doing a solo arena or soloing a world boss with 12 dps.

And 12k is enough to complete everything listed. I think it's excat value of DPS check on vet Vateshran last boss. Everything else either donm't have check or have them extremly low. Vet maelstrom is a meme at this point people have done it naked or just with light attack spam without using any ability. World bosses can easily be soloed with 12k DPS. DPS in these activities is not an issue, You just need to stay alive.

If it’s not any issue than why are you all so concerned about how people do their dps ? 🤔 you should be fine only doing 12 than too if it ain’t no thang

isadoraisacat

Ragnarok0130 wrote: »

AScarlato wrote: »

The difference with the light attack nerf is I never saw anyone asking for other players to be nerfed who are good at light attacking. I’ve seen requests for alternatives styles but not the selfish and petty cries for nerfs we HA users witnessed here. All because we can now do decent dps that is still lower than the top 2 bar La players.

I saw plenty of requests from non-end game players in the U35 turmoil/debate not only requesting that LA be nerfed but that animation cancelling that ZoS has embraced since launch be "fixed" ie removed to prevent people from LA during the "raise the floor and lower the ceiling" debates. Heck I saw this same request in this thread.

I don’t think they should remove those things.
I personally don’t care how others play. What I do think is they are going to push a way a lot of players who otherwise couldn’t participate past casual questing.

I do agree weaving is a bug and shouldn’t have existed in the first place but it does now. People enjoy that play style and that’s fine, you do you I do me. Not sure why zos and many other players can’t adopt this mentality.

Galeriano

isadoraisacat wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

https://youtu.be/tqrFxFCQbak

Someone made a video comparing the pts and live towards the end of the video you can def it takes major hit still in my opinion. I think lower end players like me will be way more affected in solo content / wold bosses / solo arenas or even trying to attempt duengons solo. I think it will still be viable but definitely took a massive hit. If they do anymore nerfs to it tho I think we are done unfortunately.

This whole video is about proving this setup didn't took a major hit but You still preffer to panic. To complete everything You've listed (overland, world bosses, solo arenas) You could do half of Your current DPS and still do it with no issues. In this particular activities DPS requiremennts are set extremly low and everything boils down just to not dying from stupid.

You really need to stop panicing.

Half my dps is 12 my guy. There is no way I’m doing a solo arena or soloing a world boss with 12 dps.

And 12k is enough to complete everything listed. I think it's excat value of DPS check on vet Vateshran last boss. Everything else either donm't have check or have them extremly low. Vet maelstrom is a meme at this point people have done it naked or just with light attack spam without using any ability. World bosses can easily be soloed with 12k DPS. DPS in these activities is not an issue, You just need to stay alive.

If it’s not any issue than why are you all so concerned about how people do their dps ? 🤔 you should be fine only doing 12 than too if it ain’t no thang

Am I? What gives You the impression I am concerned?

Also there is a big difference between overland ang group veteran content.

Ascarl

Finally you, the ZOS people have to decide who pays their bills:

A vocal crowd of gatekeeperplayers who want to keep everything for those who "deserve" all the goodies because of high rate of actions per second or all those casuals who got some hope because of the promises of "play the way way you line" and " raising the floor" statements.

You can not serve both in the end. One group will eventually leave.

isadoraisacat

Galeriano wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

https://youtu.be/tqrFxFCQbak

Someone made a video comparing the pts and live towards the end of the video you can def it takes major hit still in my opinion. I think lower end players like me will be way more affected in solo content / wold bosses / solo arenas or even trying to attempt duengons solo. I think it will still be viable but definitely took a massive hit. If they do anymore nerfs to it tho I think we are done unfortunately.

This whole video is about proving this setup didn't took a major hit but You still preffer to panic. To complete everything You've listed (overland, world bosses, solo arenas) You could do half of Your current DPS and still do it with no issues. In this particular activities DPS requiremennts are set extremly low and everything boils down just to not dying from stupid.

You really need to stop panicing.

Half my dps is 12 my guy. There is no way I’m doing a solo arena or soloing a world boss with 12 dps.

And 12k is enough to complete everything listed. I think it's excat value of DPS check on vet Vateshran last boss. Everything else either donm't have check or have them extremly low. Vet maelstrom is a meme at this point people have done it naked or just with light attack spam without using any ability. World bosses can easily be soloed with 12k DPS. DPS in these activities is not an issue, You just need to stay alive.

If it’s not any issue than why are you all so concerned about how people do their dps ? 🤔 you should be fine only doing 12 than too if it ain’t no thang

Am I? What gives You the impression I am concerned?

Also there is a big difference between overland ang group veteran content.

Of course there is. And I’ll never be able to do it because of this nerf… I’m well aware.

What makes me think that because I feels like you are making excuses and gaslighting. This is between me being able to participate in most of the game or basically only be able to do questing. I pay a lot of money towards this game. I am a skilled gamer who has a hand injury, I am unable to play a fast style anymore. If people can’t understand why so many are upset over this than I do not know what to tell you.

Ragnarok0130

Stanelis wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

Stanelis wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

Stanelis wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

Well one bar builds have not fixed that issue. They just made things worse for those two bar enjoyers who were not top tier DDs. New mythic coming with Necrom seems to address that issue better than oakensoul. It lowers LA/HA dmg but boost all the other dmg. That being said it still doesn't mean that one bar heavy attack average DPS is where it should be balance wise according to devs.

So after over a year of improving the game in the direction of making it more accesible and making one bar heavy attack setups stronger where they went from around 70-75k DPS to 90-100k DPS now after they reached a point where average one bar user is easily outperforming average two bar user, slight nerf to one bar heavy attack setups effectivenss is a step in wrong direction? Also fact that a one bar, ranged setup with easy sustain, simple slow paced rotation and high base defense that also have lots of AoE built into it is doing more damage on average than two bar, meele setup with harder sustain, more complex fast paced rotation, lower based defense and lower AoE dmg is sending a right message? Come on let's be real here.

.

Congratulation you just defined why 2 bars gameplay is clunky atm and has been for ages. Also no its not confirmation bias, when one bar builds weren't a thing people who didn't enjoy 2 bars gameplay simply left the game.

So fast = cluncky for You? Ok that's a one wierd way to look at it.

Yes it is a confirmation bias. As I said before heavy attack setups (including one bar HA) were a thing for quite some time before oakensoul. Nothing was stopping people who didn't like two bar dynamic playstyle to play as heavy attack setups. Nothing other than a fact they didn't like to produce less DPS. People were even soloing vet dungeons on heavy attack setups before oakensoul arrival which proves they were more than viable in real content. The main reason why so many people plays one bar heavy attack setups right now is because of how much DPS they produce.

Fun fact few years ago there was a time period when heavy attack rotations were a meta and it was hated and criticised to the point ZoS had to change that. Belive it or not but there is many people (not just high end players but also mid and low end ones) who find heavy attack rotations slow and boring and they don't want to use them preffering more dynamic and fast paced combat that also feels rewarding due to more steep learning curve.

You may say "well if they preffer two bar rotations than they should use them" but the problem is for those who are not experts at that, one bar heavy attack produces way better results so it's becoming a no brainer option wheter they like it or not.

Then if you like that fast paced combat and if people don't then how is it a problem if the two playstyle are fine ? Because from the other post it didn't seem you found enjoyment out of that 2 bar gameplay you speak of.

Also it is pretty obvious beginners should go for one bar setup if their goal is to be optimal, as it is easier by design. I mean I don't even know what you re arguing about a this point : it is supposed to be easier and an option for people who simply see the game as a video game and a place of enjoyment and not a place where you need to be a keyboard ninja to take on content...

The issue is that Brian Wheeler stated that they wanted to reward mastery in their U35 non-Q&A, so having HA builds actively compete with the much harder to master LA builds is problematic for that goal and really incentivizes people to abandon mastering their LA builds at the low and mid level to use a HA build for better DPS at an easy amount of effort. And let's look at it from another standpoint, should someone who uses training wheels on their bike be able to come in 3rd in the Tour de France? What incentive is there to move past HA builds to the LA mastery phase if you can HA build your way through almost all of the hardest content in the game? I'm happy that HA builds have given people the courage to try end game content, but like the rest of us you need to be prepared to adjust to nerfs and buffs that come with playing end game and tweak your builds in response. It's not the end of the world, you'll be all right...I'm a Templar main since 2014...I know a thing or two about nerfs in ESO.

People keep throwing around the word disability when not once has ZoS used the word "disability" that I can find when speaking about oakensoul or heavy attack builds - they speak of accessibility which generally means ease of access to content but not ease of mastery of that content. If I'm to take ZoS' comments at face value, heavy attack/oaken builds are meant as a gateway to access veteran content and then you start mastering the content and branching out to more complicated builds. HA builds are not meant to be a place to stay at given the dev's responses. I say this as one with an auto-immune arthritis so I know a thing or two about playing in less than desirable conditions if I have a flare up.

Ascarl

Ragnarok0130 wrote: »

AScarlato wrote: »

The difference with the light attack nerf is I never saw anyone asking for other players to be nerfed who are good at light attacking. I’ve seen requests for alternatives styles but not the selfish and petty cries for nerfs we HA users witnessed here. All because we can now do decent dps that is still lower than the top 2 bar La players.

I saw plenty of requests from non-end game players in the U35 turmoil/debate not only requesting that LA be nerfed but that animation cancelling that ZoS has embraced since launch be "fixed" ie removed to prevent people from LA during the "raise the floor and lower the ceiling" debates. Heck I saw this same request in this thread.

Actually I would be so happy if LA weaving is fixed that I would cheerfully swallow any other nerf for sure.

isadoraisacat

Ragnarok0130 wrote: »

Stanelis wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

Stanelis wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

Stanelis wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

Well one bar builds have not fixed that issue. They just made things worse for those two bar enjoyers who were not top tier DDs. New mythic coming with Necrom seems to address that issue better than oakensoul. It lowers LA/HA dmg but boost all the other dmg. That being said it still doesn't mean that one bar heavy attack average DPS is where it should be balance wise according to devs.

So after over a year of improving the game in the direction of making it more accesible and making one bar heavy attack setups stronger where they went from around 70-75k DPS to 90-100k DPS now after they reached a point where average one bar user is easily outperforming average two bar user, slight nerf to one bar heavy attack setups effectivenss is a step in wrong direction? Also fact that a one bar, ranged setup with easy sustain, simple slow paced rotation and high base defense that also have lots of AoE built into it is doing more damage on average than two bar, meele setup with harder sustain, more complex fast paced rotation, lower based defense and lower AoE dmg is sending a right message? Come on let's be real here.

.

Congratulation you just defined why 2 bars gameplay is clunky atm and has been for ages. Also no its not confirmation bias, when one bar builds weren't a thing people who didn't enjoy 2 bars gameplay simply left the game.

So fast = cluncky for You? Ok that's a one wierd way to look at it.

Yes it is a confirmation bias. As I said before heavy attack setups (including one bar HA) were a thing for quite some time before oakensoul. Nothing was stopping people who didn't like two bar dynamic playstyle to play as heavy attack setups. Nothing other than a fact they didn't like to produce less DPS. People were even soloing vet dungeons on heavy attack setups before oakensoul arrival which proves they were more than viable in real content. The main reason why so many people plays one bar heavy attack setups right now is because of how much DPS they produce.

Fun fact few years ago there was a time period when heavy attack rotations were a meta and it was hated and criticised to the point ZoS had to change that. Belive it or not but there is many people (not just high end players but also mid and low end ones) who find heavy attack rotations slow and boring and they don't want to use them preffering more dynamic and fast paced combat that also feels rewarding due to more steep learning curve.

You may say "well if they preffer two bar rotations than they should use them" but the problem is for those who are not experts at that, one bar heavy attack produces way better results so it's becoming a no brainer option wheter they like it or not.

Then if you like that fast paced combat and if people don't then how is it a problem if the two playstyle are fine ? Because from the other post it didn't seem you found enjoyment out of that 2 bar gameplay you speak of.

Also it is pretty obvious beginners should go for one bar setup if their goal is to be optimal, as it is easier by design. I mean I don't even know what you re arguing about a this point : it is supposed to be easier and an option for people who simply see the game as a video game and a place of enjoyment and not a place where you need to be a keyboard ninja to take on content...

The issue is that Brian Wheeler stated that they wanted to reward mastery in their U35 non-Q&A, so having HA builds actively compete with the much harder to master LA builds is problematic for that goal and really incentivizes people to abandon mastering their LA builds at the low and mid level to use a HA build for better DPS at an easy amount of effort. And let's look at it from another standpoint, should someone who uses training wheels on their bike be able to come in 3rd in the Tour de France? What incentive is there to move past HA builds to the LA mastery phase if you can HA build your way through almost all of the hardest content in the game? I'm happy that HA builds have given people the courage to try end game content, but like the rest of us you need to be prepared to adjust to nerfs and buffs that come with playing end game and tweak your builds in response. It's not the end of the world, you'll be all right...I'm a Templar main since 2014...I know a thing or two about nerfs in ESO.

People keep throwing around the word disability when not once has ZoS used the word "disability" that I can find when speaking about oakensoul or heavy attack builds - they speak of accessibility which generally means ease of access to content but not ease of mastery of that content. If I'm to take ZoS' comments at face value, heavy attack/oaken builds are meant as a gateway to access veteran content and then you start mastering the content and branching out to more complicated builds. HA builds are not meant to be a place to stay at given the dev's responses. I say this as one with an auto-immune arthritis so I know a thing or two about playing in less than desirable conditions if I have a flare up.

Yes people are “throwing” it around because those with many hand injuries are able to play because it’s a slower paced combat style. It’s much easier to do when someone is limited. It doesn’t matter what zos said or didn’t say. The play style works for those people and has made so many more people be able to enjoy the game.

it’s really not that hard to understand.

isadoraisacat

Ascarl wrote: »

Ragnarok0130 wrote: »

AScarlato wrote: »

The difference with the light attack nerf is I never saw anyone asking for other players to be nerfed who are good at light attacking. I’ve seen requests for alternatives styles but not the selfish and petty cries for nerfs we HA users witnessed here. All because we can now do decent dps that is still lower than the top 2 bar La players.

I saw plenty of requests from non-end game players in the U35 turmoil/debate not only requesting that LA be nerfed but that animation cancelling that ZoS has embraced since launch be "fixed" ie removed to prevent people from LA during the "raise the floor and lower the ceiling" debates. Heck I saw this same request in this thread.

Actually I would be so happy if LA weaving is fixed that I would cheerfully swallow any other nerf for sure.

I don’t it just makes us stoop down to the level of people who want the same thing for us. What I want is for each style player to be able to enjoy the style they like and play how they want with who they want.

This is 2023 we have so many wonderful things now with lgbt rights / human rights / animal rights / trans right etc so much amazing stuff with equality but it feels like gamer equality is for some reason in this case a real divide. I’m not sure why people can’t just understand where others are coming from and why they like a certain style (maybe it’s a real serious reason). But I don’t want to harm anyone’s game or make it less enjoyable for them that does nothing for me.

Ascarl

isadoraisacat wrote: »

Ascarl wrote: »

Ragnarok0130 wrote: »

AScarlato wrote: »

The difference with the light attack nerf is I never saw anyone asking for other players to be nerfed who are good at light attacking. I’ve seen requests for alternatives styles but not the selfish and petty cries for nerfs we HA users witnessed here. All because we can now do decent dps that is still lower than the top 2 bar La players.

I saw plenty of requests from non-end game players in the U35 turmoil/debate not only requesting that LA be nerfed but that animation cancelling that ZoS has embraced since launch be "fixed" ie removed to prevent people from LA during the "raise the floor and lower the ceiling" debates. Heck I saw this same request in this thread.

Actually I would be so happy if LA weaving is fixed that I would cheerfully swallow any other nerf for sure.

I don’t it just makes us stoop down to the level of people who want the same thing for us. What I want is for each style player to be able to enjoy the style they like and play how they want with who they want.

This is 2023 we have so many wonderful things now with lgbt rights / human rights / animal rights / trans right etc so much amazing stuff with equality but it feels like gamer equality is for some reason in this case a real divide. I’m not sure why people can’t just understand where others are coming from and why they like a certain style (maybe it’s a real serious reason). But I don’t want to harm anyone’s game or make it less enjoyable for them that does nothing for me.

You have seen what the gatekeepers think of casuals in this thread, we have experienced this for many years.
They did everything they could to get rid of us "pretenders" doing the stuff they thought was exclusive to them. They cried for nerfs and for some reasons they got the nerfs.

This is the level they tackle us and no noble approach will stop them.

The only way to win this battle is to tell ZOS that they will loose more money if the annoy the casual in order to please the gatekeepers than vice versa.

isadoraisacat

Ascarl wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

Ascarl wrote: »

Ragnarok0130 wrote: »

AScarlato wrote: »

The difference with the light attack nerf is I never saw anyone asking for other players to be nerfed who are good at light attacking. I’ve seen requests for alternatives styles but not the selfish and petty cries for nerfs we HA users witnessed here. All because we can now do decent dps that is still lower than the top 2 bar La players.

I saw plenty of requests from non-end game players in the U35 turmoil/debate not only requesting that LA be nerfed but that animation cancelling that ZoS has embraced since launch be "fixed" ie removed to prevent people from LA during the "raise the floor and lower the ceiling" debates. Heck I saw this same request in this thread.

Actually I would be so happy if LA weaving is fixed that I would cheerfully swallow any other nerf for sure.

I don’t it just makes us stoop down to the level of people who want the same thing for us. What I want is for each style player to be able to enjoy the style they like and play how they want with who they want.

This is 2023 we have so many wonderful things now with lgbt rights / human rights / animal rights / trans right etc so much amazing stuff with equality but it feels like gamer equality is for some reason in this case a real divide. I’m not sure why people can’t just understand where others are coming from and why they like a certain style (maybe it’s a real serious reason). But I don’t want to harm anyone’s game or make it less enjoyable for them that does nothing for me.

You have seen what the gatekeepers think of casuals in this thread, we have experienced this for many years.
They did everything they could to get rid of us "pretenders" doing the stuff they thought was exclusive to them. They cried for nerfs and for some reasons they got the nerfs.

This is the level they tackle us and no noble approach will stop them.

The only way to win this battle is to tell ZOS that they will loose more money if the annoy the casual in order to please the gatekeepers than vice versa.

I mean I think the only real way is by trying to get them to understand this should be about equality.
It’s a game people want to have fun. The end game groups won’t let people like me in anyway. It’s nothing they should even be concerned about.

Hopefully zos reads the comments and will understand how much of an impact this has on paying customers. Because that’s what we are we buy crates / houses / pay or sub by the chapters etc etc I’ve been doing this since 2018 maybe not one of the people who came along when the game first came in 2014 but still it’s been a while
And I’ve paid a lot of money into this game, and I want to be able to enjoy the content I paid for.

Galeriano

isadoraisacat wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

https://youtu.be/tqrFxFCQbak

Someone made a video comparing the pts and live towards the end of the video you can def it takes major hit still in my opinion. I think lower end players like me will be way more affected in solo content / wold bosses / solo arenas or even trying to attempt duengons solo. I think it will still be viable but definitely took a massive hit. If they do anymore nerfs to it tho I think we are done unfortunately.

This whole video is about proving this setup didn't took a major hit but You still preffer to panic. To complete everything You've listed (overland, world bosses, solo arenas) You could do half of Your current DPS and still do it with no issues. In this particular activities DPS requiremennts are set extremly low and everything boils down just to not dying from stupid.

You really need to stop panicing.

Half my dps is 12 my guy. There is no way I’m doing a solo arena or soloing a world boss with 12 dps.

And 12k is enough to complete everything listed. I think it's excat value of DPS check on vet Vateshran last boss. Everything else either donm't have check or have them extremly low. Vet maelstrom is a meme at this point people have done it naked or just with light attack spam without using any ability. World bosses can easily be soloed with 12k DPS. DPS in these activities is not an issue, You just need to stay alive.

If it’s not any issue than why are you all so concerned about how people do their dps ? 🤔 you should be fine only doing 12 than too if it ain’t no thang

Am I? What gives You the impression I am concerned?

Also there is a big difference between overland ang group veteran content.

Of course there is. And I’ll never be able to do it because of this nerf… I’m well aware.

What makes me think that because I feels like you are making excuses and gaslighting. This is between me being able to participate in most of the game or basically only be able to do questing. I pay a lot of money towards this game. I am a skilled gamer who has a hand injury, I am unable to play a fast style anymore. If people can’t understand why so many are upset over this than I do not know what to tell you.

Once again You are overreacting. You have a setup that does way more damage than it's needed to complete everything You listed. If You are unable to complete even vMA than I am sorry to tell You this but You may be not as skilled as You think. As You've seen in the video You linked boss fights after the nerf are just few seconds longer so for a skilled gamer it shouldn't be a difference between completing and not completing them. Maelstrom arena is still pretty easy which have been proven numerous times and DPS requirement to complete it is extremly low, way lower than what You are doing right now and way way lower than what Your setup is capable to do. If You can't complete that arena than DPS is not the main issue and no matter how much ZoS would pump up Your numbers You would still struggle. Sorry but it's time to accept that.

Many people told You already that nerf is not that significant, You have parses and videos proving that but You still preffer to continue Your narrative that the game will be dead for You after Your setup recive that nerf and that nerf cannot happen because it will complelty ruin Your chance to do anything in the game.

As for Your hand injury there is many players who found workarounds to issues with their hands. I know people that are using foot pedals from their gaming wheel to relive hands from certain motions in gaming. I know people who find using gamepad more relaxing for their hands. I've even seen a player called RockyNoHands who is paralyzed neck down and still plays competitively in online shooters. Not that long ago he got 21 kills in sigle fortnite match. He didn't ask developers to make whole game extra easy so it can fit his disability. He found a way to work around his disability. You can do it to. First step to do it is to calm down and stop panicing like this nerf would be end of the world. It's not.

TaSheen

@Galeriano - I think it would be kinder to not be so confrontive with someone you don't know. People react very differently to perceived changes - I try to figure out how to change things to still be able to do what I want to do; others have vastly different reactions to changes.

Please be gentler, kinder to others.

Lumenn

Ragnarok0130 wrote: »

Stanelis wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

Stanelis wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

Stanelis wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

Well one bar builds have not fixed that issue. They just made things worse for those two bar enjoyers who were not top tier DDs. New mythic coming with Necrom seems to address that issue better than oakensoul. It lowers LA/HA dmg but boost all the other dmg. That being said it still doesn't mean that one bar heavy attack average DPS is where it should be balance wise according to devs.

So after over a year of improving the game in the direction of making it more accesible and making one bar heavy attack setups stronger where they went from around 70-75k DPS to 90-100k DPS now after they reached a point where average one bar user is easily outperforming average two bar user, slight nerf to one bar heavy attack setups effectivenss is a step in wrong direction? Also fact that a one bar, ranged setup with easy sustain, simple slow paced rotation and high base defense that also have lots of AoE built into it is doing more damage on average than two bar, meele setup with harder sustain, more complex fast paced rotation, lower based defense and lower AoE dmg is sending a right message? Come on let's be real here.

.

Congratulation you just defined why 2 bars gameplay is clunky atm and has been for ages. Also no its not confirmation bias, when one bar builds weren't a thing people who didn't enjoy 2 bars gameplay simply left the game.

So fast = cluncky for You? Ok that's a one wierd way to look at it.

Yes it is a confirmation bias. As I said before heavy attack setups (including one bar HA) were a thing for quite some time before oakensoul. Nothing was stopping people who didn't like two bar dynamic playstyle to play as heavy attack setups. Nothing other than a fact they didn't like to produce less DPS. People were even soloing vet dungeons on heavy attack setups before oakensoul arrival which proves they were more than viable in real content. The main reason why so many people plays one bar heavy attack setups right now is because of how much DPS they produce.

Fun fact few years ago there was a time period when heavy attack rotations were a meta and it was hated and criticised to the point ZoS had to change that. Belive it or not but there is many people (not just high end players but also mid and low end ones) who find heavy attack rotations slow and boring and they don't want to use them preffering more dynamic and fast paced combat that also feels rewarding due to more steep learning curve.

You may say "well if they preffer two bar rotations than they should use them" but the problem is for those who are not experts at that, one bar heavy attack produces way better results so it's becoming a no brainer option wheter they like it or not.

Then if you like that fast paced combat and if people don't then how is it a problem if the two playstyle are fine ? Because from the other post it didn't seem you found enjoyment out of that 2 bar gameplay you speak of.

Also it is pretty obvious beginners should go for one bar setup if their goal is to be optimal, as it is easier by design. I mean I don't even know what you re arguing about a this point : it is supposed to be easier and an option for people who simply see the game as a video game and a place of enjoyment and not a place where you need to be a keyboard ninja to take on content...

What incentive is there to move past HA builds to the LA mastery phase if you can HA build your way through almost all of the hardest content in the game?

Timed runs? To be the best? Why else would you practice in front of a dummy for so long on a game? To be the best? Or just to be able to play?

This statement right here is to me one of the biggest issues I see in the whole HA discussion. "play my way or you can't come in". What's wrong with an alternate path? Less dps, less flexibility, you're not buffing/helping your team any, and like 2 bar builds, a VERY narrow class/gear option if you want to push the top dps available. It's cap is lower. The people using the build know this and don't care about doing 130k dps. They want to enjoy the game on a viable path other than the finger waltz yet others seem to feel pretty strongly that you must play their way.

There SHOULD be more than one way to do ALL dungeons, even if some consider it "training wheels"( to use your words.) HA will never be the best, but it's popularity shows just how many of us hate the finger waltz. And that goes for those with the occasional rheumatoid flare up, to the constant carpal, missing fingers, or any other condition up to and including perfectly healthy and hate weaving.

So I'll ask again, what's wrong with an alternate path? Especially knowing it'll never top weaving which takes more work. I can do both, but I prefer my "training wheels" for various reasons. Leave people their "training wheels", they're not hurting anyone.

isadoraisacat

TaSheen wrote: »

@Galeriano - I think it would be kinder to not be so confrontive with someone you don't know. People react very differently to perceived changes - I try to figure out how to change things to still be able to do what I want to do; others have vastly different reactions to changes.

Please be gentler, kinder to others.

Yeah I’m no longer responding to that person. They come across hateful. I’m done.

Ascarl

VMA is not off limits with this nerf, as it's not about damage per second.

You could nerf HA damage by 50% and VMA is still doable.

The problem is that despite all those "play the way you want" and "raise the floor" slogans, ZOS did the very opposite and nerfed the only playstle that is not centered about LA animation canceling.

For many people this action is the very problem.

Again, I would be happy with any nerf to HA, if LA canceling is nerfed more.