Thoughts of a Random Guy on Necrom Changes to HA / Heavy-Attack builds & on Arcanist

isadoraisacat · April 2023

Galeriano wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

loveeso wrote: »

Wow, I'm pleasantly surprised by the overwhelming number of replies! Thank you to everyone who took the time to share their thoughts on this topic. It's great to see so many insightful comments.

Hopefully, ZOS will take note of the community's concerns and reconsider their proposed changes to Storm Master and Empower before they go live with Necrom. I've noticed that there have been some misunderstandings regarding the extent of the nerf, with some suggesting it's only up to around 6%. However, I want to clarify that the numbers I provided earlier are not mere estimations or guesses, but actual results obtained from testing DPS in combat. So here are the accurate numbers once again.

SM Live vs PTS
-23.99% max DPS (-17.82% avg DPS)

The above DPS loss will be even worse in actual combat scenarios, because Storm Master uptimes (and thus DPS) are likely to decrease even further. This is due to the fact that if a player misses the 3-second window to deal critical damage (which is common since most HA builds have a critical chance of around 40-50%), the Storm Master buff falls off.

By the way, it's worth noting that the Undaunted Infiltrator set is not a viable alternative to Storm Master. In fact, it still falls short in comparison. Here's why:

SM Live vs Undaunted Infiltrator (UI) PTS
-24.96% max DPS (-20.64% avg DPS)

If you're interested in verifying these test results for yourself, it's easy to do so by logging into the PTS. Here are some more details on how to replicate the experiment:

Test Assumptions:
The purpose of this test is to evaluate how the proposed changes affect Heavy Attack DPS, so we are only interested in sets and abilities that are specific to Heavy Attack builds. Therefore, we will exclude sets and abilities that are not relevant to this test, such as Pillar of Nirn and Volatile Familiar.

To minimize confounding factors and isolate the variables under test, we need to control for various factors such as differences in builds, classes, player skill level, and random variations caused by Critical Rating and Critical Damage. The controlled variables for this experiment are:
The combat ruleset (live vs PTS)

The 5-piece body set used (Storm Master and Undaunted Infiltrator).

Body

1x L Slimecraw
1x Sergeant (heavy)
5x Strom Master or Undaunted Infiltrator (both medium)

Bar & Accessories

Sergeant's Mail (lightning, neck, ring)
Oakensoul Ring

Same abilities, attributes, CPs, mundus, and target dummy for every test build.

To minimize the impact of player-executed rotation on the test results, we used Heavy Attack weaving as the rotation for this experiment. The rotation used was as follows:
Wall

Heavy Attack

Heavy Attack

Heavy Attack

Heavy Attack

Results - see the beginning of this post (for details please see the image)

TL;DR
To summarize:
Based on the data collected, it appears that the proposed changes will result in a significant nerf to the maximum achievable Heavy Attack damage, with a reduction of approximately -24%. It's important to note that this test was conducted on a stationary target. In actual combat scenarios, Storm Master uptimes (and thus DPS) are likely to decrease even further. This is due to the fact that if a player misses the 3-second window to deal critical damage (which is common since most HA builds have a critical chance of around 40-50%), the Storm Master buff falls off.

I don’t think people realize how deadly of a hit this is giving to ha builds. I think it may render some of our builds for us low dps solo players useless.

I guess it’s back to sucking wind and doing quests with as little combat as possible now and not being able to use all the content I pay for. Unless they review these things and decide not to move forward with this.

Personally I was happy with my main character the dps I was getting for now and the content I was able to do because of it it (even tho it still needs a ton of work I was Still is a much better place I’d never reach other wise without this ).

Sorry, but the test you quoted is not accurate. One can't test the DPS loss like that because it will not be an accurate assessment on the impact of the build. You need to test the entire build or the numbers will be greatly skewed.

When testing a full build on PTS vs Live, you only see a 6% damage loss. This is because, while the nerf to Storm Master's may impact your HA damage by 20% or so, wearing it in tandem with other sets will mitigate that loss. HA damage also only accounts for around 70% of the DPS of a HA build, so your overall dps is not impacted by 20% like the quoted test states.

You can check my post in the PTS forum for an accurate comparison between full parses.

Oh ok. Well for someone like me who is only hitting 25k dps half finished with their build it’s a massive hit to me and will further make it harder to finish my build that’s already been nerfed.

It’s almost like you are defending the changes because it’s what you wanted it. Trust me I’ll never be able to out parse you lol
It’s not my goal. I was shooting for 30-40 k max and I’m only at 25k I’m striving to focus on the solo arenas and many people like me aren’t hitting high dps or even affect your groups what so ever.

Make a parse on 21M trial dummy not 3/6M one. It gives more reliable starting point to know where are You at with Your DPS.

I unfortunately don’t have one and my guild as far as I know doesn’t have one either.

You can teleport to the house of someone who have one if it's an open house. Just type this command in chat /script JumpToHouse("@house owner ID") and You will be able to teleport to the house of someone who have 21M trial dummy. So now just ask around for someone on Your server who have free to visit house with a trial dummy. There is plenty of people like that.

I’ll ask I don’t know anyone who has one and i do not believe my guilds have them.

But I’m telling your right now I’m not going to be holding down one button slaying gods it will be a very low and sad number. You are reallY overestimating it.

isadoraisacat · April 2023

jaws343 wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

SerafinaWaterstar wrote: »

I do not understand the devs reasoning - so what if the HA builds were reaching or in rare cases surpassing LA builds?

Where does it state that LA builds are the ‘sanctioned’ build?

This is not, as many have said previously, “Play how you like” 🤣

(And way to go to discriminate against those that find LA weaving/bar swapping difficult due to disabilities)

It says on the steam page basically play how you want. So I’d gather there is no developer determined set way to play. So I’d hope they would reconsider these changes.

Play how you want only means that there is various levels of content for different people.

Do you want to fish, you can do that. Do you want to pick flowers, you can do that too. PVP, Trials, solo content, overland questing, you can do all of that as well. You can pick the things you want to do, and do those things.

Play how you want DOES NOT mean that you can do all of those things with anything. You need to be properly equipped/prepared for them. You may want to fish, but you must have the necessary bait to do so. You may want to pick flowers, but certain CP and skill points are going to be necessary to be most efficient at it.

You can PVP, but if you don't equip yourself properly, you are not going to be effective.

Play how you want does not mean that whatever way you want to approach the different parts of content available are going to work. You can farm gear all you want, but it won't win you a ToT match or build your ToT deck. Just like being ill-equipped for PVE content isn't going to get you through that content.

That is all, it is available for you to do. But you still have to prepare yourself properly for it.

I don’t see a “play how you want as long as it’s weaving” in this anywhere.

This is not what we are talking about.
It says mix different armors and skills
Together for your own play style what is storm master / sergeant and oaken soul? And the associated dots we use with the build it’s all armors and skills. Seems like we are following zos meaning perfectly here with a HA build.

Mix any armors and skills. But if we can't agree that someone running Armor Master and Adept rider, and using only tank and healing skills, is going to be flat out awful in a DPS role in PVE content, then I really don't even know how to continue this conversation.

You can play any content you want, you can wear any set or no set at all. But you still need to make sure what you are wearing is effective for the content you want to do. It's that simple.

None of this even matters, because Storm Masters and Sergeant's will still be perfectly viable for vet content, including trials, next patch. But, you can also wear another set instead of Storm Masters and be just as viable. Because the DPs loss isn't that bad. It's not bad at all.

I even did some math in the other thread, I'll even add some more here.

On LIVE right now, on a Storm Master and Sergeants Oaken sorc build.

With pets out, but Zero skills being activated. Just holding the heavy attack button. The build does 29K DPS on a 3 million dummy. The base one, with no pen or debuffs. 29K DPS.

Activating skills bumps that up to 33K DPS. So, Heavy attacks+Storm Master +Sergeants+Shock enchant = 29K DPS.

That combo is roughly 87% of the 33K DPs parse.

So, a baseline of 29K DPS on that 3M with doing nothing but holding heavy attack. That portion of the parse is the only part that is losing damage. So let's say the doomsaying 20% amount that keeps getting thrown around, that means that portion will do 23.2K DPS + now the skills portion of the parse, you get 28.2K DPS, an overall 15% nerf to a full parse.

That 15% is worst case scenario, and as others have already shown, not the actual case. But even so, using your 25K limit, that 15% nerf is 21K damage.

Honestly, if people are going to reject a player for 21K DPS on a 3M dummy, they were going to reject you for 25K. Especially when a 29K parse on a 3M is possible without activating any skills and just heavy attacking.

At the same time, plenty of groups literally don't care as long as you aren't dying or not following mechanics.

Clearly the set up was affective we wouldn’t be here if it wasn’t the case.
[snip]

I am literally showing you the numbers from the oakenbuild I use and have saved in my armorer. I cleared VMA on it this morning for my best score ever, and I run it in vet trials.

The nerf in PTS is nothing of any import on the build. It will be fine post nerf and still be stronger than the average solo DPS setup.

If we really want to make a comparison, my two bar solo build also does vet content, including vet trials and dungeons, and barely does 22K DPS on the 3M dummy. This heavy attack build does 10K more DPS, and even after the nerf will still do at least 5K more DPS. And no-one has turned down my solo build for vet content because I know how to do the role and I don't try to do trifecta prog groups. I play with like-minded players. And if your build is doing 20K+ DPS on a 3M dummy, it is effective enough for all content in the game.

And I’m literally sharing my experiences that I’ve been bullied for using this build. I’ve been kicked out a group dungeons at the last boss and mocked.

I don’t know which dummy is 3m I’m referring to the standard skeleton dummy not the parsing high end one with all the buffs I never did that dummy as I don’t have one.

You can’t compare your self to me we are different people different players with different abilities different disabilities and different levels of experience.

The skeleton is the 3M. 3M refers to the health the dummy has.

Honestly, personal experiences and anecdotes are irrelevant. You get bullied for using the build. Find better groups to run the build with. I don't get bullied for using the build, because I run with like minded people. It's is an easy fix to make. Don't play the game with people who don't want to play it with you the way you want to play it.

In the case of this nerf, the only thing that matters are objective numbers. And objectively, oakensoul heavy builds are going to be fine, at all levels of play. And objectively, I can hold 1 single button down for 2 minutes just as much as you can on a heavy attack build. And objectively on an oakensorc build, doing so gives you 29K DPS on the 3M dummy, without pressing a single skill. This does not require effort, this does not require timing. This require clicking and holding a trigger or mouse button, which is the minimum requirement for a heavy attack builds functionality.

I can’t always “find better groups” I work 7 days a week. I have a family to care for. When I come on if people in guilds aren’t on and I need transmuted to progress my character I have to deal with random people to do what I need to do. Not everyone is just online at the same time.

Everyone’s experience is relevant.
That’s just a snide thing to say.

I’m aware 3m refers to the health of the dummy im saying i use the normal skeleton one and never used the one to use referring too.

I mean if you want me to record my self playing holding down one button and not doing the damage you say ? I can gladly do it. I’m up for the challenge does anyone have a 3m dummy I can borrow ?
Becuase I bet you it will take me like 10
Minutes or more to kill it with much less dps. If I struggle on the basic skeleton.

The normal skeleton is the only 3M skeleton. Or at the very least, that is exactly what I am talking about.

On a trial dummy, just holding heavy attack down and not using skills nets around 70 DPS on the same build.

Ok I’ll find one and see if I get those results.

Galeriano · April 2023

isadoraisacat wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

loveeso wrote: »

Wow, I'm pleasantly surprised by the overwhelming number of replies! Thank you to everyone who took the time to share their thoughts on this topic. It's great to see so many insightful comments.

Hopefully, ZOS will take note of the community's concerns and reconsider their proposed changes to Storm Master and Empower before they go live with Necrom. I've noticed that there have been some misunderstandings regarding the extent of the nerf, with some suggesting it's only up to around 6%. However, I want to clarify that the numbers I provided earlier are not mere estimations or guesses, but actual results obtained from testing DPS in combat. So here are the accurate numbers once again.

SM Live vs PTS
-23.99% max DPS (-17.82% avg DPS)

The above DPS loss will be even worse in actual combat scenarios, because Storm Master uptimes (and thus DPS) are likely to decrease even further. This is due to the fact that if a player misses the 3-second window to deal critical damage (which is common since most HA builds have a critical chance of around 40-50%), the Storm Master buff falls off.

By the way, it's worth noting that the Undaunted Infiltrator set is not a viable alternative to Storm Master. In fact, it still falls short in comparison. Here's why:

SM Live vs Undaunted Infiltrator (UI) PTS
-24.96% max DPS (-20.64% avg DPS)

If you're interested in verifying these test results for yourself, it's easy to do so by logging into the PTS. Here are some more details on how to replicate the experiment:

Test Assumptions:
The purpose of this test is to evaluate how the proposed changes affect Heavy Attack DPS, so we are only interested in sets and abilities that are specific to Heavy Attack builds. Therefore, we will exclude sets and abilities that are not relevant to this test, such as Pillar of Nirn and Volatile Familiar.

To minimize confounding factors and isolate the variables under test, we need to control for various factors such as differences in builds, classes, player skill level, and random variations caused by Critical Rating and Critical Damage. The controlled variables for this experiment are:
The combat ruleset (live vs PTS)

The 5-piece body set used (Storm Master and Undaunted Infiltrator).

Body

1x L Slimecraw
1x Sergeant (heavy)
5x Strom Master or Undaunted Infiltrator (both medium)

Bar & Accessories

Sergeant's Mail (lightning, neck, ring)
Oakensoul Ring

Same abilities, attributes, CPs, mundus, and target dummy for every test build.

To minimize the impact of player-executed rotation on the test results, we used Heavy Attack weaving as the rotation for this experiment. The rotation used was as follows:
Wall

Heavy Attack

Heavy Attack

Heavy Attack

Heavy Attack

Results - see the beginning of this post (for details please see the image)

TL;DR
To summarize:
Based on the data collected, it appears that the proposed changes will result in a significant nerf to the maximum achievable Heavy Attack damage, with a reduction of approximately -24%. It's important to note that this test was conducted on a stationary target. In actual combat scenarios, Storm Master uptimes (and thus DPS) are likely to decrease even further. This is due to the fact that if a player misses the 3-second window to deal critical damage (which is common since most HA builds have a critical chance of around 40-50%), the Storm Master buff falls off.

I don’t think people realize how deadly of a hit this is giving to ha builds. I think it may render some of our builds for us low dps solo players useless.

I guess it’s back to sucking wind and doing quests with as little combat as possible now and not being able to use all the content I pay for. Unless they review these things and decide not to move forward with this.

Personally I was happy with my main character the dps I was getting for now and the content I was able to do because of it it (even tho it still needs a ton of work I was Still is a much better place I’d never reach other wise without this ).

Sorry, but the test you quoted is not accurate. One can't test the DPS loss like that because it will not be an accurate assessment on the impact of the build. You need to test the entire build or the numbers will be greatly skewed.

When testing a full build on PTS vs Live, you only see a 6% damage loss. This is because, while the nerf to Storm Master's may impact your HA damage by 20% or so, wearing it in tandem with other sets will mitigate that loss. HA damage also only accounts for around 70% of the DPS of a HA build, so your overall dps is not impacted by 20% like the quoted test states.

You can check my post in the PTS forum for an accurate comparison between full parses.

Oh ok. Well for someone like me who is only hitting 25k dps half finished with their build it’s a massive hit to me and will further make it harder to finish my build that’s already been nerfed.

It’s almost like you are defending the changes because it’s what you wanted it. Trust me I’ll never be able to out parse you lol
It’s not my goal. I was shooting for 30-40 k max and I’m only at 25k I’m striving to focus on the solo arenas and many people like me aren’t hitting high dps or even affect your groups what so ever.

Make a parse on 21M trial dummy not 3/6M one. It gives more reliable starting point to know where are You at with Your DPS.

I unfortunately don’t have one and my guild as far as I know doesn’t have one either.

You can teleport to the house of someone who have one if it's an open house. Just type this command in chat /script JumpToHouse("@house owner ID") and You will be able to teleport to the house of someone who have 21M trial dummy. So now just ask around for someone on Your server who have free to visit house with a trial dummy. There is plenty of people like that.

I’ll ask I don’t know anyone who has one and i do not believe my guilds have them.

But I’m telling your right now I’m not going to be holding down one button slaying gods it will be a very low and sad number. You are reallY overestimating it.

It's not that like have any expectations towards Your DPS. I just said that trial dummy is a more reliable source of data. You can also ask around for people like that in zone chats.

isadoraisacat · April 2023

isadoraisacat wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

SerafinaWaterstar wrote: »

I do not understand the devs reasoning - so what if the HA builds were reaching or in rare cases surpassing LA builds?

Where does it state that LA builds are the ‘sanctioned’ build?

This is not, as many have said previously, “Play how you like” 🤣

(And way to go to discriminate against those that find LA weaving/bar swapping difficult due to disabilities)

It says on the steam page basically play how you want. So I’d gather there is no developer determined set way to play. So I’d hope they would reconsider these changes.

Play how you want only means that there is various levels of content for different people.

Do you want to fish, you can do that. Do you want to pick flowers, you can do that too. PVP, Trials, solo content, overland questing, you can do all of that as well. You can pick the things you want to do, and do those things.

Play how you want DOES NOT mean that you can do all of those things with anything. You need to be properly equipped/prepared for them. You may want to fish, but you must have the necessary bait to do so. You may want to pick flowers, but certain CP and skill points are going to be necessary to be most efficient at it.

You can PVP, but if you don't equip yourself properly, you are not going to be effective.

Play how you want does not mean that whatever way you want to approach the different parts of content available are going to work. You can farm gear all you want, but it won't win you a ToT match or build your ToT deck. Just like being ill-equipped for PVE content isn't going to get you through that content.

That is all, it is available for you to do. But you still have to prepare yourself properly for it.

I don’t see a “play how you want as long as it’s weaving” in this anywhere.

This is not what we are talking about.
It says mix different armors and skills
Together for your own play style what is storm master / sergeant and oaken soul? And the associated dots we use with the build it’s all armors and skills. Seems like we are following zos meaning perfectly here with a HA build.

Mix any armors and skills. But if we can't agree that someone running Armor Master and Adept rider, and using only tank and healing skills, is going to be flat out awful in a DPS role in PVE content, then I really don't even know how to continue this conversation.

You can play any content you want, you can wear any set or no set at all. But you still need to make sure what you are wearing is effective for the content you want to do. It's that simple.

None of this even matters, because Storm Masters and Sergeant's will still be perfectly viable for vet content, including trials, next patch. But, you can also wear another set instead of Storm Masters and be just as viable. Because the DPs loss isn't that bad. It's not bad at all.

I even did some math in the other thread, I'll even add some more here.

On LIVE right now, on a Storm Master and Sergeants Oaken sorc build.

With pets out, but Zero skills being activated. Just holding the heavy attack button. The build does 29K DPS on a 3 million dummy. The base one, with no pen or debuffs. 29K DPS.

Activating skills bumps that up to 33K DPS. So, Heavy attacks+Storm Master +Sergeants+Shock enchant = 29K DPS.

That combo is roughly 87% of the 33K DPs parse.

So, a baseline of 29K DPS on that 3M with doing nothing but holding heavy attack. That portion of the parse is the only part that is losing damage. So let's say the doomsaying 20% amount that keeps getting thrown around, that means that portion will do 23.2K DPS + now the skills portion of the parse, you get 28.2K DPS, an overall 15% nerf to a full parse.

That 15% is worst case scenario, and as others have already shown, not the actual case. But even so, using your 25K limit, that 15% nerf is 21K damage.

Honestly, if people are going to reject a player for 21K DPS on a 3M dummy, they were going to reject you for 25K. Especially when a 29K parse on a 3M is possible without activating any skills and just heavy attacking.

At the same time, plenty of groups literally don't care as long as you aren't dying or not following mechanics.

Clearly the set up was affective we wouldn’t be here if it wasn’t the case.
[snip]

I am literally showing you the numbers from the oakenbuild I use and have saved in my armorer. I cleared VMA on it this morning for my best score ever, and I run it in vet trials.

The nerf in PTS is nothing of any import on the build. It will be fine post nerf and still be stronger than the average solo DPS setup.

If we really want to make a comparison, my two bar solo build also does vet content, including vet trials and dungeons, and barely does 22K DPS on the 3M dummy. This heavy attack build does 10K more DPS, and even after the nerf will still do at least 5K more DPS. And no-one has turned down my solo build for vet content because I know how to do the role and I don't try to do trifecta prog groups. I play with like-minded players. And if your build is doing 20K+ DPS on a 3M dummy, it is effective enough for all content in the game.

And I’m literally sharing my experiences that I’ve been bullied for using this build. I’ve been kicked out a group dungeons at the last boss and mocked.

I don’t know which dummy is 3m I’m referring to the standard skeleton dummy not the parsing high end one with all the buffs I never did that dummy as I don’t have one.

You can’t compare your self to me we are different people different players with different abilities different disabilities and different levels of experience.

The skeleton is the 3M. 3M refers to the health the dummy has.

Honestly, personal experiences and anecdotes are irrelevant. You get bullied for using the build. Find better groups to run the build with. I don't get bullied for using the build, because I run with like minded people. It's is an easy fix to make. Don't play the game with people who don't want to play it with you the way you want to play it.

In the case of this nerf, the only thing that matters are objective numbers. And objectively, oakensoul heavy builds are going to be fine, at all levels of play. And objectively, I can hold 1 single button down for 2 minutes just as much as you can on a heavy attack build. And objectively on an oakensorc build, doing so gives you 29K DPS on the 3M dummy, without pressing a single skill. This does not require effort, this does not require timing. This require clicking and holding a trigger or mouse button, which is the minimum requirement for a heavy attack builds functionality.

I can’t always “find better groups” I work 7 days a week. I have a family to care for. When I come on if people in guilds aren’t on and I need transmuted to progress my character I have to deal with random people to do what I need to do. Not everyone is just online at the same time.

Everyone’s experience is relevant.
That’s just a snide thing to say.

I’m aware 3m refers to the health of the dummy im saying i use the normal skeleton one and never used the one to use referring too.

I mean if you want me to record my self playing holding down one button and not doing the damage you say ? I can gladly do it. I’m up for the challenge does anyone have a 3m dummy I can borrow ?
Becuase I bet you it will take me like 10
Minutes or more to kill it with much less dps. If I struggle on the basic skeleton.

The normal skeleton is the only 3M skeleton. Or at the very least, that is exactly what I am talking about.

On a trial dummy, just holding heavy attack down and not using skills nets around 70 DPS on the same build.

Ok I’ll find one and see if I get those results.

On the 3m one than I get 25k now
With the nerf prob 22k

Ascarl · April 2023

Cadbury wrote: »

Remember, this is the first week of PTS. Things can change or be reverted.

Or become even worse.

isadoraisacat · April 2023

Ascarl wrote: »

Cadbury wrote: »

Remember, this is the first week of PTS. Things can change or be reverted.

Or become even worse.

Yep that’s my fear

Ascarl · April 2023

jaws343 wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

SerafinaWaterstar wrote: »

I do not understand the devs reasoning - so what if the HA builds were reaching or in rare cases surpassing LA builds?

Where does it state that LA builds are the ‘sanctioned’ build?

This is not, as many have said previously, “Play how you like” 🤣

(And way to go to discriminate against those that find LA weaving/bar swapping difficult due to disabilities)

It says on the steam page basically play how you want. So I’d gather there is no developer determined set way to play. So I’d hope they would reconsider these changes.

Play how you want only means that there is various levels of content for different people.

Do you want to fish, you can do that. Do you want to pick flowers, you can do that too. PVP, Trials, solo content, overland questing, you can do all of that as well. You can pick the things you want to do, and do those things.

Play how you want DOES NOT mean that you can do all of those things with anything. You need to be properly equipped/prepared for them. You may want to fish, but you must have the necessary bait to do so. You may want to pick flowers, but certain CP and skill points are going to be necessary to be most efficient at it.

You can PVP, but if you don't equip yourself properly, you are not going to be effective.

Play how you want does not mean that whatever way you want to approach the different parts of content available are going to work. You can farm gear all you want, but it won't win you a ToT match or build your ToT deck. Just like being ill-equipped for PVE content isn't going to get you through that content.

That is all, it is available for you to do. But you still have to prepare yourself properly for it.

This is not true, sadly. Regardless on how much you prepare, if you are not following the LA weaving theme, you are out of luck.
Tzhis is the very contrast to th term play as you like.

isadoraisacat · April 2023

Galeriano wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

loveeso wrote: »

Wow, I'm pleasantly surprised by the overwhelming number of replies! Thank you to everyone who took the time to share their thoughts on this topic. It's great to see so many insightful comments.

Hopefully, ZOS will take note of the community's concerns and reconsider their proposed changes to Storm Master and Empower before they go live with Necrom. I've noticed that there have been some misunderstandings regarding the extent of the nerf, with some suggesting it's only up to around 6%. However, I want to clarify that the numbers I provided earlier are not mere estimations or guesses, but actual results obtained from testing DPS in combat. So here are the accurate numbers once again.

SM Live vs PTS
-23.99% max DPS (-17.82% avg DPS)

The above DPS loss will be even worse in actual combat scenarios, because Storm Master uptimes (and thus DPS) are likely to decrease even further. This is due to the fact that if a player misses the 3-second window to deal critical damage (which is common since most HA builds have a critical chance of around 40-50%), the Storm Master buff falls off.

By the way, it's worth noting that the Undaunted Infiltrator set is not a viable alternative to Storm Master. In fact, it still falls short in comparison. Here's why:

SM Live vs Undaunted Infiltrator (UI) PTS
-24.96% max DPS (-20.64% avg DPS)

If you're interested in verifying these test results for yourself, it's easy to do so by logging into the PTS. Here are some more details on how to replicate the experiment:

Test Assumptions:
The purpose of this test is to evaluate how the proposed changes affect Heavy Attack DPS, so we are only interested in sets and abilities that are specific to Heavy Attack builds. Therefore, we will exclude sets and abilities that are not relevant to this test, such as Pillar of Nirn and Volatile Familiar.

To minimize confounding factors and isolate the variables under test, we need to control for various factors such as differences in builds, classes, player skill level, and random variations caused by Critical Rating and Critical Damage. The controlled variables for this experiment are:
The combat ruleset (live vs PTS)

The 5-piece body set used (Storm Master and Undaunted Infiltrator).

Body

1x L Slimecraw
1x Sergeant (heavy)
5x Strom Master or Undaunted Infiltrator (both medium)

Bar & Accessories

Sergeant's Mail (lightning, neck, ring)
Oakensoul Ring

Same abilities, attributes, CPs, mundus, and target dummy for every test build.

To minimize the impact of player-executed rotation on the test results, we used Heavy Attack weaving as the rotation for this experiment. The rotation used was as follows:
Wall

Heavy Attack

Heavy Attack

Heavy Attack

Heavy Attack

Results - see the beginning of this post (for details please see the image)

TL;DR
To summarize:
Based on the data collected, it appears that the proposed changes will result in a significant nerf to the maximum achievable Heavy Attack damage, with a reduction of approximately -24%. It's important to note that this test was conducted on a stationary target. In actual combat scenarios, Storm Master uptimes (and thus DPS) are likely to decrease even further. This is due to the fact that if a player misses the 3-second window to deal critical damage (which is common since most HA builds have a critical chance of around 40-50%), the Storm Master buff falls off.

I don’t think people realize how deadly of a hit this is giving to ha builds. I think it may render some of our builds for us low dps solo players useless.

I guess it’s back to sucking wind and doing quests with as little combat as possible now and not being able to use all the content I pay for. Unless they review these things and decide not to move forward with this.

Personally I was happy with my main character the dps I was getting for now and the content I was able to do because of it it (even tho it still needs a ton of work I was Still is a much better place I’d never reach other wise without this ).

Sorry, but the test you quoted is not accurate. One can't test the DPS loss like that because it will not be an accurate assessment on the impact of the build. You need to test the entire build or the numbers will be greatly skewed.

When testing a full build on PTS vs Live, you only see a 6% damage loss. This is because, while the nerf to Storm Master's may impact your HA damage by 20% or so, wearing it in tandem with other sets will mitigate that loss. HA damage also only accounts for around 70% of the DPS of a HA build, so your overall dps is not impacted by 20% like the quoted test states.

You can check my post in the PTS forum for an accurate comparison between full parses.

Oh ok. Well for someone like me who is only hitting 25k dps half finished with their build it’s a massive hit to me and will further make it harder to finish my build that’s already been nerfed.

It’s almost like you are defending the changes because it’s what you wanted it. Trust me I’ll never be able to out parse you lol
It’s not my goal. I was shooting for 30-40 k max and I’m only at 25k I’m striving to focus on the solo arenas and many people like me aren’t hitting high dps or even affect your groups what so ever.

Make a parse on 21M trial dummy not 3/6M one. It gives more reliable starting point to know where are You at with Your DPS.

I unfortunately don’t have one and my guild as far as I know doesn’t have one either.

You can teleport to the house of someone who have one if it's an open house. Just type this command in chat /script JumpToHouse("@house owner ID") and You will be able to teleport to the house of someone who have 21M trial dummy. So now just ask around for someone on Your server who have free to visit house with a trial dummy. There is plenty of people like that.

I’ll ask I don’t know anyone who has one and i do not believe my guilds have them.

But I’m telling your right now I’m not going to be holding down one button slaying gods it will be a very low and sad number. You are reallY overestimating it.

It's not that like have any expectations towards Your DPS. I just said that trial dummy is a more reliable source of data. You can also ask around for people like that in zone chats.

Just did a target blood nignt and got 19k dps

Once again this is holding down just the one button no dots. People are gravely over estimating the dps

Edit : with pets out but not activating them so without pets even less damage

isadoraisacat · April 2023

Galeriano wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

loveeso wrote: »

Wow, I'm pleasantly surprised by the overwhelming number of replies! Thank you to everyone who took the time to share their thoughts on this topic. It's great to see so many insightful comments.

Hopefully, ZOS will take note of the community's concerns and reconsider their proposed changes to Storm Master and Empower before they go live with Necrom. I've noticed that there have been some misunderstandings regarding the extent of the nerf, with some suggesting it's only up to around 6%. However, I want to clarify that the numbers I provided earlier are not mere estimations or guesses, but actual results obtained from testing DPS in combat. So here are the accurate numbers once again.

SM Live vs PTS
-23.99% max DPS (-17.82% avg DPS)

The above DPS loss will be even worse in actual combat scenarios, because Storm Master uptimes (and thus DPS) are likely to decrease even further. This is due to the fact that if a player misses the 3-second window to deal critical damage (which is common since most HA builds have a critical chance of around 40-50%), the Storm Master buff falls off.

By the way, it's worth noting that the Undaunted Infiltrator set is not a viable alternative to Storm Master. In fact, it still falls short in comparison. Here's why:

SM Live vs Undaunted Infiltrator (UI) PTS
-24.96% max DPS (-20.64% avg DPS)

If you're interested in verifying these test results for yourself, it's easy to do so by logging into the PTS. Here are some more details on how to replicate the experiment:

Test Assumptions:
The purpose of this test is to evaluate how the proposed changes affect Heavy Attack DPS, so we are only interested in sets and abilities that are specific to Heavy Attack builds. Therefore, we will exclude sets and abilities that are not relevant to this test, such as Pillar of Nirn and Volatile Familiar.

To minimize confounding factors and isolate the variables under test, we need to control for various factors such as differences in builds, classes, player skill level, and random variations caused by Critical Rating and Critical Damage. The controlled variables for this experiment are:
The combat ruleset (live vs PTS)

The 5-piece body set used (Storm Master and Undaunted Infiltrator).

Body

1x L Slimecraw
1x Sergeant (heavy)
5x Strom Master or Undaunted Infiltrator (both medium)

Bar & Accessories

Sergeant's Mail (lightning, neck, ring)
Oakensoul Ring

Same abilities, attributes, CPs, mundus, and target dummy for every test build.

To minimize the impact of player-executed rotation on the test results, we used Heavy Attack weaving as the rotation for this experiment. The rotation used was as follows:
Wall

Heavy Attack

Heavy Attack

Heavy Attack

Heavy Attack

Results - see the beginning of this post (for details please see the image)

TL;DR
To summarize:
Based on the data collected, it appears that the proposed changes will result in a significant nerf to the maximum achievable Heavy Attack damage, with a reduction of approximately -24%. It's important to note that this test was conducted on a stationary target. In actual combat scenarios, Storm Master uptimes (and thus DPS) are likely to decrease even further. This is due to the fact that if a player misses the 3-second window to deal critical damage (which is common since most HA builds have a critical chance of around 40-50%), the Storm Master buff falls off.

I don’t think people realize how deadly of a hit this is giving to ha builds. I think it may render some of our builds for us low dps solo players useless.

I guess it’s back to sucking wind and doing quests with as little combat as possible now and not being able to use all the content I pay for. Unless they review these things and decide not to move forward with this.

Personally I was happy with my main character the dps I was getting for now and the content I was able to do because of it it (even tho it still needs a ton of work I was Still is a much better place I’d never reach other wise without this ).

Sorry, but the test you quoted is not accurate. One can't test the DPS loss like that because it will not be an accurate assessment on the impact of the build. You need to test the entire build or the numbers will be greatly skewed.

When testing a full build on PTS vs Live, you only see a 6% damage loss. This is because, while the nerf to Storm Master's may impact your HA damage by 20% or so, wearing it in tandem with other sets will mitigate that loss. HA damage also only accounts for around 70% of the DPS of a HA build, so your overall dps is not impacted by 20% like the quoted test states.

You can check my post in the PTS forum for an accurate comparison between full parses.

Oh ok. Well for someone like me who is only hitting 25k dps half finished with their build it’s a massive hit to me and will further make it harder to finish my build that’s already been nerfed.

It’s almost like you are defending the changes because it’s what you wanted it. Trust me I’ll never be able to out parse you lol
It’s not my goal. I was shooting for 30-40 k max and I’m only at 25k I’m striving to focus on the solo arenas and many people like me aren’t hitting high dps or even affect your groups what so ever.

Make a parse on 21M trial dummy not 3/6M one. It gives more reliable starting point to know where are You at with Your DPS.

I unfortunately don’t have one and my guild as far as I know doesn’t have one either.

You can teleport to the house of someone who have one if it's an open house. Just type this command in chat /script JumpToHouse("@house owner ID") and You will be able to teleport to the house of someone who have 21M trial dummy. So now just ask around for someone on Your server who have free to visit house with a trial dummy. There is plenty of people like that.

I’ll ask I don’t know anyone who has one and i do not believe my guilds have them.

But I’m telling your right now I’m not going to be holding down one button slaying gods it will be a very low and sad number. You are reallY overestimating it.

It's not that like have any expectations towards Your DPS. I just said that trial dummy is a more reliable source of data. You can also ask around for people like that in zone chats.

24 thousand with my actual rotation using my dots and pets

So it’s not just “holding down click and slaying vivec with a slap of the wrist”

isadoraisacat · April 2023

jaws343 wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

SerafinaWaterstar wrote: »

I do not understand the devs reasoning - so what if the HA builds were reaching or in rare cases surpassing LA builds?

Where does it state that LA builds are the ‘sanctioned’ build?

This is not, as many have said previously, “Play how you like” 🤣

(And way to go to discriminate against those that find LA weaving/bar swapping difficult due to disabilities)

It says on the steam page basically play how you want. So I’d gather there is no developer determined set way to play. So I’d hope they would reconsider these changes.

Play how you want only means that there is various levels of content for different people.

Do you want to fish, you can do that. Do you want to pick flowers, you can do that too. PVP, Trials, solo content, overland questing, you can do all of that as well. You can pick the things you want to do, and do those things.

Play how you want DOES NOT mean that you can do all of those things with anything. You need to be properly equipped/prepared for them. You may want to fish, but you must have the necessary bait to do so. You may want to pick flowers, but certain CP and skill points are going to be necessary to be most efficient at it.

You can PVP, but if you don't equip yourself properly, you are not going to be effective.

Play how you want does not mean that whatever way you want to approach the different parts of content available are going to work. You can farm gear all you want, but it won't win you a ToT match or build your ToT deck. Just like being ill-equipped for PVE content isn't going to get you through that content.

That is all, it is available for you to do. But you still have to prepare yourself properly for it.

I don’t see a “play how you want as long as it’s weaving” in this anywhere.

This is not what we are talking about.
It says mix different armors and skills
Together for your own play style what is storm master / sergeant and oaken soul? And the associated dots we use with the build it’s all armors and skills. Seems like we are following zos meaning perfectly here with a HA build.

Mix any armors and skills. But if we can't agree that someone running Armor Master and Adept rider, and using only tank and healing skills, is going to be flat out awful in a DPS role in PVE content, then I really don't even know how to continue this conversation.

You can play any content you want, you can wear any set or no set at all. But you still need to make sure what you are wearing is effective for the content you want to do. It's that simple.

None of this even matters, because Storm Masters and Sergeant's will still be perfectly viable for vet content, including trials, next patch. But, you can also wear another set instead of Storm Masters and be just as viable. Because the DPs loss isn't that bad. It's not bad at all.

I even did some math in the other thread, I'll even add some more here.

On LIVE right now, on a Storm Master and Sergeants Oaken sorc build.

With pets out, but Zero skills being activated. Just holding the heavy attack button. The build does 29K DPS on a 3 million dummy. The base one, with no pen or debuffs. 29K DPS.

Activating skills bumps that up to 33K DPS. So, Heavy attacks+Storm Master +Sergeants+Shock enchant = 29K DPS.

That combo is roughly 87% of the 33K DPs parse.

So, a baseline of 29K DPS on that 3M with doing nothing but holding heavy attack. That portion of the parse is the only part that is losing damage. So let's say the doomsaying 20% amount that keeps getting thrown around, that means that portion will do 23.2K DPS + now the skills portion of the parse, you get 28.2K DPS, an overall 15% nerf to a full parse.

That 15% is worst case scenario, and as others have already shown, not the actual case. But even so, using your 25K limit, that 15% nerf is 21K damage.

Honestly, if people are going to reject a player for 21K DPS on a 3M dummy, they were going to reject you for 25K. Especially when a 29K parse on a 3M is possible without activating any skills and just heavy attacking.

At the same time, plenty of groups literally don't care as long as you aren't dying or not following mechanics.

Clearly the set up was affective we wouldn’t be here if it wasn’t the case.
[snip]

I am literally showing you the numbers from the oakenbuild I use and have saved in my armorer. I cleared VMA on it this morning for my best score ever, and I run it in vet trials.

The nerf in PTS is nothing of any import on the build. It will be fine post nerf and still be stronger than the average solo DPS setup.

If we really want to make a comparison, my two bar solo build also does vet content, including vet trials and dungeons, and barely does 22K DPS on the 3M dummy. This heavy attack build does 10K more DPS, and even after the nerf will still do at least 5K more DPS. And no-one has turned down my solo build for vet content because I know how to do the role and I don't try to do trifecta prog groups. I play with like-minded players. And if your build is doing 20K+ DPS on a 3M dummy, it is effective enough for all content in the game.

And I’m literally sharing my experiences that I’ve been bullied for using this build. I’ve been kicked out a group dungeons at the last boss and mocked.

I don’t know which dummy is 3m I’m referring to the standard skeleton dummy not the parsing high end one with all the buffs I never did that dummy as I don’t have one.

You can’t compare your self to me we are different people different players with different abilities different disabilities and different levels of experience.

The skeleton is the 3M. 3M refers to the health the dummy has.

Honestly, personal experiences and anecdotes are irrelevant. You get bullied for using the build. Find better groups to run the build with. I don't get bullied for using the build, because I run with like minded people. It's is an easy fix to make. Don't play the game with people who don't want to play it with you the way you want to play it.

In the case of this nerf, the only thing that matters are objective numbers. And objectively, oakensoul heavy builds are going to be fine, at all levels of play. And objectively, I can hold 1 single button down for 2 minutes just as much as you can on a heavy attack build. And objectively on an oakensorc build, doing so gives you 29K DPS on the 3M dummy, without pressing a single skill. This does not require effort, this does not require timing. This require clicking and holding a trigger or mouse button, which is the minimum requirement for a heavy attack builds functionality.

I can’t always “find better groups” I work 7 days a week. I have a family to care for. When I come on if people in guilds aren’t on and I need transmuted to progress my character I have to deal with random people to do what I need to do. Not everyone is just online at the same time.

Everyone’s experience is relevant.
That’s just a snide thing to say.

I’m aware 3m refers to the health of the dummy im saying i use the normal skeleton one and never used the one to use referring too.

I mean if you want me to record my self playing holding down one button and not doing the damage you say ? I can gladly do it. I’m up for the challenge does anyone have a 3m dummy I can borrow ?
Becuase I bet you it will take me like 10
Minutes or more to kill it with much less dps. If I struggle on the basic skeleton.

The normal skeleton is the only 3M skeleton. Or at the very least, that is exactly what I am talking about.

On a trial dummy, just holding heavy attack down and not using skills nets around 70 DPS on the same build.

Your results are in sir you can see at the end of this thread in a 5 mill dummy you are not correct.

jaws343 · April 2023

isadoraisacat wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

SerafinaWaterstar wrote: »

I do not understand the devs reasoning - so what if the HA builds were reaching or in rare cases surpassing LA builds?

Where does it state that LA builds are the ‘sanctioned’ build?

This is not, as many have said previously, “Play how you like” 🤣

(And way to go to discriminate against those that find LA weaving/bar swapping difficult due to disabilities)

It says on the steam page basically play how you want. So I’d gather there is no developer determined set way to play. So I’d hope they would reconsider these changes.

Play how you want only means that there is various levels of content for different people.

Do you want to fish, you can do that. Do you want to pick flowers, you can do that too. PVP, Trials, solo content, overland questing, you can do all of that as well. You can pick the things you want to do, and do those things.

Play how you want DOES NOT mean that you can do all of those things with anything. You need to be properly equipped/prepared for them. You may want to fish, but you must have the necessary bait to do so. You may want to pick flowers, but certain CP and skill points are going to be necessary to be most efficient at it.

You can PVP, but if you don't equip yourself properly, you are not going to be effective.

Play how you want does not mean that whatever way you want to approach the different parts of content available are going to work. You can farm gear all you want, but it won't win you a ToT match or build your ToT deck. Just like being ill-equipped for PVE content isn't going to get you through that content.

That is all, it is available for you to do. But you still have to prepare yourself properly for it.

I don’t see a “play how you want as long as it’s weaving” in this anywhere.

This is not what we are talking about.
It says mix different armors and skills
Together for your own play style what is storm master / sergeant and oaken soul? And the associated dots we use with the build it’s all armors and skills. Seems like we are following zos meaning perfectly here with a HA build.

Mix any armors and skills. But if we can't agree that someone running Armor Master and Adept rider, and using only tank and healing skills, is going to be flat out awful in a DPS role in PVE content, then I really don't even know how to continue this conversation.

You can play any content you want, you can wear any set or no set at all. But you still need to make sure what you are wearing is effective for the content you want to do. It's that simple.

None of this even matters, because Storm Masters and Sergeant's will still be perfectly viable for vet content, including trials, next patch. But, you can also wear another set instead of Storm Masters and be just as viable. Because the DPs loss isn't that bad. It's not bad at all.

I even did some math in the other thread, I'll even add some more here.

On LIVE right now, on a Storm Master and Sergeants Oaken sorc build.

With pets out, but Zero skills being activated. Just holding the heavy attack button. The build does 29K DPS on a 3 million dummy. The base one, with no pen or debuffs. 29K DPS.

Activating skills bumps that up to 33K DPS. So, Heavy attacks+Storm Master +Sergeants+Shock enchant = 29K DPS.

That combo is roughly 87% of the 33K DPs parse.

So, a baseline of 29K DPS on that 3M with doing nothing but holding heavy attack. That portion of the parse is the only part that is losing damage. So let's say the doomsaying 20% amount that keeps getting thrown around, that means that portion will do 23.2K DPS + now the skills portion of the parse, you get 28.2K DPS, an overall 15% nerf to a full parse.

That 15% is worst case scenario, and as others have already shown, not the actual case. But even so, using your 25K limit, that 15% nerf is 21K damage.

Honestly, if people are going to reject a player for 21K DPS on a 3M dummy, they were going to reject you for 25K. Especially when a 29K parse on a 3M is possible without activating any skills and just heavy attacking.

At the same time, plenty of groups literally don't care as long as you aren't dying or not following mechanics.

Clearly the set up was affective we wouldn’t be here if it wasn’t the case.
[snip]

I am literally showing you the numbers from the oakenbuild I use and have saved in my armorer. I cleared VMA on it this morning for my best score ever, and I run it in vet trials.

The nerf in PTS is nothing of any import on the build. It will be fine post nerf and still be stronger than the average solo DPS setup.

If we really want to make a comparison, my two bar solo build also does vet content, including vet trials and dungeons, and barely does 22K DPS on the 3M dummy. This heavy attack build does 10K more DPS, and even after the nerf will still do at least 5K more DPS. And no-one has turned down my solo build for vet content because I know how to do the role and I don't try to do trifecta prog groups. I play with like-minded players. And if your build is doing 20K+ DPS on a 3M dummy, it is effective enough for all content in the game.

And I’m literally sharing my experiences that I’ve been bullied for using this build. I’ve been kicked out a group dungeons at the last boss and mocked.

I don’t know which dummy is 3m I’m referring to the standard skeleton dummy not the parsing high end one with all the buffs I never did that dummy as I don’t have one.

You can’t compare your self to me we are different people different players with different abilities different disabilities and different levels of experience.

The skeleton is the 3M. 3M refers to the health the dummy has.

Honestly, personal experiences and anecdotes are irrelevant. You get bullied for using the build. Find better groups to run the build with. I don't get bullied for using the build, because I run with like minded people. It's is an easy fix to make. Don't play the game with people who don't want to play it with you the way you want to play it.

In the case of this nerf, the only thing that matters are objective numbers. And objectively, oakensoul heavy builds are going to be fine, at all levels of play. And objectively, I can hold 1 single button down for 2 minutes just as much as you can on a heavy attack build. And objectively on an oakensorc build, doing so gives you 29K DPS on the 3M dummy, without pressing a single skill. This does not require effort, this does not require timing. This require clicking and holding a trigger or mouse button, which is the minimum requirement for a heavy attack builds functionality.

I can’t always “find better groups” I work 7 days a week. I have a family to care for. When I come on if people in guilds aren’t on and I need transmuted to progress my character I have to deal with random people to do what I need to do. Not everyone is just online at the same time.

Everyone’s experience is relevant.
That’s just a snide thing to say.

I’m aware 3m refers to the health of the dummy im saying i use the normal skeleton one and never used the one to use referring too.

I mean if you want me to record my self playing holding down one button and not doing the damage you say ? I can gladly do it. I’m up for the challenge does anyone have a 3m dummy I can borrow ?
Becuase I bet you it will take me like 10
Minutes or more to kill it with much less dps. If I struggle on the basic skeleton.

The normal skeleton is the only 3M skeleton. Or at the very least, that is exactly what I am talking about.

On a trial dummy, just holding heavy attack down and not using skills nets around 70 DPS on the same build.

Your results are in sir you can see at the end of this thread in a 5 mill dummy you are not correct.

So, here is where you assess your build and see why you aren't hitting that obtainable number.

What blue CP slottables are you running?

I know you said your gear isn't fully upgraded, but that isn't going to do all that much. I am assuming you have the full sergeant and storm master setup. What is the other 1 piece set you are wearing, slimecraw is the best choice here. And your Mundus?

Of the two 5 piece sets, which are you running on your body and which on your jewelry. It makes a difference if the heavy set is on your body.

INM · April 2023

isadoraisacat wrote: »

Your results are in sir you can see at the end of this thread in a 5 mill dummy you are not correct.

Just for your notice, Target Bloodknight isn't the correct dummy everyone's talking about. You should be looking for one of these, every other dummy doesn't provide you with buffs and your results will be much lower because of this (you will be dealing at least double your damage).

I must say right away that this is not the DPS that you will have in real content and no one expects you to deal that much in a real fight. It's just an equalized test in an equalized environment.

isadoraisacat · April 2023

jaws343 wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

SerafinaWaterstar wrote: »

I do not understand the devs reasoning - so what if the HA builds were reaching or in rare cases surpassing LA builds?

Where does it state that LA builds are the ‘sanctioned’ build?

This is not, as many have said previously, “Play how you like” 🤣

(And way to go to discriminate against those that find LA weaving/bar swapping difficult due to disabilities)

It says on the steam page basically play how you want. So I’d gather there is no developer determined set way to play. So I’d hope they would reconsider these changes.

Play how you want only means that there is various levels of content for different people.

Do you want to fish, you can do that. Do you want to pick flowers, you can do that too. PVP, Trials, solo content, overland questing, you can do all of that as well. You can pick the things you want to do, and do those things.

Play how you want DOES NOT mean that you can do all of those things with anything. You need to be properly equipped/prepared for them. You may want to fish, but you must have the necessary bait to do so. You may want to pick flowers, but certain CP and skill points are going to be necessary to be most efficient at it.

You can PVP, but if you don't equip yourself properly, you are not going to be effective.

Play how you want does not mean that whatever way you want to approach the different parts of content available are going to work. You can farm gear all you want, but it won't win you a ToT match or build your ToT deck. Just like being ill-equipped for PVE content isn't going to get you through that content.

That is all, it is available for you to do. But you still have to prepare yourself properly for it.

I don’t see a “play how you want as long as it’s weaving” in this anywhere.

This is not what we are talking about.
It says mix different armors and skills
Together for your own play style what is storm master / sergeant and oaken soul? And the associated dots we use with the build it’s all armors and skills. Seems like we are following zos meaning perfectly here with a HA build.

Mix any armors and skills. But if we can't agree that someone running Armor Master and Adept rider, and using only tank and healing skills, is going to be flat out awful in a DPS role in PVE content, then I really don't even know how to continue this conversation.

You can play any content you want, you can wear any set or no set at all. But you still need to make sure what you are wearing is effective for the content you want to do. It's that simple.

None of this even matters, because Storm Masters and Sergeant's will still be perfectly viable for vet content, including trials, next patch. But, you can also wear another set instead of Storm Masters and be just as viable. Because the DPs loss isn't that bad. It's not bad at all.

I even did some math in the other thread, I'll even add some more here.

On LIVE right now, on a Storm Master and Sergeants Oaken sorc build.

With pets out, but Zero skills being activated. Just holding the heavy attack button. The build does 29K DPS on a 3 million dummy. The base one, with no pen or debuffs. 29K DPS.

Activating skills bumps that up to 33K DPS. So, Heavy attacks+Storm Master +Sergeants+Shock enchant = 29K DPS.

That combo is roughly 87% of the 33K DPs parse.

So, a baseline of 29K DPS on that 3M with doing nothing but holding heavy attack. That portion of the parse is the only part that is losing damage. So let's say the doomsaying 20% amount that keeps getting thrown around, that means that portion will do 23.2K DPS + now the skills portion of the parse, you get 28.2K DPS, an overall 15% nerf to a full parse.

That 15% is worst case scenario, and as others have already shown, not the actual case. But even so, using your 25K limit, that 15% nerf is 21K damage.

Honestly, if people are going to reject a player for 21K DPS on a 3M dummy, they were going to reject you for 25K. Especially when a 29K parse on a 3M is possible without activating any skills and just heavy attacking.

At the same time, plenty of groups literally don't care as long as you aren't dying or not following mechanics.

Clearly the set up was affective we wouldn’t be here if it wasn’t the case.
[snip]

I am literally showing you the numbers from the oakenbuild I use and have saved in my armorer. I cleared VMA on it this morning for my best score ever, and I run it in vet trials.

The nerf in PTS is nothing of any import on the build. It will be fine post nerf and still be stronger than the average solo DPS setup.

If we really want to make a comparison, my two bar solo build also does vet content, including vet trials and dungeons, and barely does 22K DPS on the 3M dummy. This heavy attack build does 10K more DPS, and even after the nerf will still do at least 5K more DPS. And no-one has turned down my solo build for vet content because I know how to do the role and I don't try to do trifecta prog groups. I play with like-minded players. And if your build is doing 20K+ DPS on a 3M dummy, it is effective enough for all content in the game.

And I’m literally sharing my experiences that I’ve been bullied for using this build. I’ve been kicked out a group dungeons at the last boss and mocked.

I don’t know which dummy is 3m I’m referring to the standard skeleton dummy not the parsing high end one with all the buffs I never did that dummy as I don’t have one.

You can’t compare your self to me we are different people different players with different abilities different disabilities and different levels of experience.

The skeleton is the 3M. 3M refers to the health the dummy has.

Honestly, personal experiences and anecdotes are irrelevant. You get bullied for using the build. Find better groups to run the build with. I don't get bullied for using the build, because I run with like minded people. It's is an easy fix to make. Don't play the game with people who don't want to play it with you the way you want to play it.

In the case of this nerf, the only thing that matters are objective numbers. And objectively, oakensoul heavy builds are going to be fine, at all levels of play. And objectively, I can hold 1 single button down for 2 minutes just as much as you can on a heavy attack build. And objectively on an oakensorc build, doing so gives you 29K DPS on the 3M dummy, without pressing a single skill. This does not require effort, this does not require timing. This require clicking and holding a trigger or mouse button, which is the minimum requirement for a heavy attack builds functionality.

I can’t always “find better groups” I work 7 days a week. I have a family to care for. When I come on if people in guilds aren’t on and I need transmuted to progress my character I have to deal with random people to do what I need to do. Not everyone is just online at the same time.

Everyone’s experience is relevant.
That’s just a snide thing to say.

I’m aware 3m refers to the health of the dummy im saying i use the normal skeleton one and never used the one to use referring too.

I mean if you want me to record my self playing holding down one button and not doing the damage you say ? I can gladly do it. I’m up for the challenge does anyone have a 3m dummy I can borrow ?
Becuase I bet you it will take me like 10
Minutes or more to kill it with much less dps. If I struggle on the basic skeleton.

The normal skeleton is the only 3M skeleton. Or at the very least, that is exactly what I am talking about.

On a trial dummy, just holding heavy attack down and not using skills nets around 70 DPS on the same build.

Your results are in sir you can see at the end of this thread in a 5 mill dummy you are not correct.

So, here is where you assess your build and see why you aren't hitting that obtainable number.

What blue CP slottables are you running?

I know you said your gear isn't fully upgraded, but that isn't going to do all that much. I am assuming you have the full sergeant and storm master setup. What is the other 1 piece set you are wearing, slimecraw is the best choice here. And your Mundus?

Of the two 5 piece sets, which are you running on your body and which on your jewelry. It makes a difference if the heavy set is on your body.

I’m using slimcraw as the monster helm.

Im using all the slottables recommended at lower amounts of points as I’m still low ep. All my gear is purple except for my staff which has a bad trait on it. 2 pieces have only divines on them. And I’m using the thief.

Once again the point is if they cut my build short farming for transmutes to make my build better will be much harder.

2 farming for xp
Will less easy due to not being able to take on world bosses anymore or things That gain more xp.

I’m well aware my build isn’t done… but the set up is by the book exactly what it needs to be for this build.

I just need more cp to add more points and to gold out my gear with better traits.

And yes 5 pieces of seargets and storm master plus slim craw with oakensoul.

And another point is why all this changes and push now if it will kick me back to this level say I gain 28k form these changes wil be knocked back down to 25 k anyway 🤷🏻‍♂️ so all this work to stay where in at and not progress.

jaws343 · April 2023

isadoraisacat wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

SerafinaWaterstar wrote: »

I do not understand the devs reasoning - so what if the HA builds were reaching or in rare cases surpassing LA builds?

Where does it state that LA builds are the ‘sanctioned’ build?

This is not, as many have said previously, “Play how you like” 🤣

(And way to go to discriminate against those that find LA weaving/bar swapping difficult due to disabilities)

It says on the steam page basically play how you want. So I’d gather there is no developer determined set way to play. So I’d hope they would reconsider these changes.

Play how you want only means that there is various levels of content for different people.

Do you want to fish, you can do that. Do you want to pick flowers, you can do that too. PVP, Trials, solo content, overland questing, you can do all of that as well. You can pick the things you want to do, and do those things.

Play how you want DOES NOT mean that you can do all of those things with anything. You need to be properly equipped/prepared for them. You may want to fish, but you must have the necessary bait to do so. You may want to pick flowers, but certain CP and skill points are going to be necessary to be most efficient at it.

You can PVP, but if you don't equip yourself properly, you are not going to be effective.

Play how you want does not mean that whatever way you want to approach the different parts of content available are going to work. You can farm gear all you want, but it won't win you a ToT match or build your ToT deck. Just like being ill-equipped for PVE content isn't going to get you through that content.

That is all, it is available for you to do. But you still have to prepare yourself properly for it.

I don’t see a “play how you want as long as it’s weaving” in this anywhere.

This is not what we are talking about.
It says mix different armors and skills
Together for your own play style what is storm master / sergeant and oaken soul? And the associated dots we use with the build it’s all armors and skills. Seems like we are following zos meaning perfectly here with a HA build.

Mix any armors and skills. But if we can't agree that someone running Armor Master and Adept rider, and using only tank and healing skills, is going to be flat out awful in a DPS role in PVE content, then I really don't even know how to continue this conversation.

You can play any content you want, you can wear any set or no set at all. But you still need to make sure what you are wearing is effective for the content you want to do. It's that simple.

None of this even matters, because Storm Masters and Sergeant's will still be perfectly viable for vet content, including trials, next patch. But, you can also wear another set instead of Storm Masters and be just as viable. Because the DPs loss isn't that bad. It's not bad at all.

I even did some math in the other thread, I'll even add some more here.

On LIVE right now, on a Storm Master and Sergeants Oaken sorc build.

With pets out, but Zero skills being activated. Just holding the heavy attack button. The build does 29K DPS on a 3 million dummy. The base one, with no pen or debuffs. 29K DPS.

Activating skills bumps that up to 33K DPS. So, Heavy attacks+Storm Master +Sergeants+Shock enchant = 29K DPS.

That combo is roughly 87% of the 33K DPs parse.

So, a baseline of 29K DPS on that 3M with doing nothing but holding heavy attack. That portion of the parse is the only part that is losing damage. So let's say the doomsaying 20% amount that keeps getting thrown around, that means that portion will do 23.2K DPS + now the skills portion of the parse, you get 28.2K DPS, an overall 15% nerf to a full parse.

That 15% is worst case scenario, and as others have already shown, not the actual case. But even so, using your 25K limit, that 15% nerf is 21K damage.

Honestly, if people are going to reject a player for 21K DPS on a 3M dummy, they were going to reject you for 25K. Especially when a 29K parse on a 3M is possible without activating any skills and just heavy attacking.

At the same time, plenty of groups literally don't care as long as you aren't dying or not following mechanics.

Clearly the set up was affective we wouldn’t be here if it wasn’t the case.
[snip]

I am literally showing you the numbers from the oakenbuild I use and have saved in my armorer. I cleared VMA on it this morning for my best score ever, and I run it in vet trials.

The nerf in PTS is nothing of any import on the build. It will be fine post nerf and still be stronger than the average solo DPS setup.

If we really want to make a comparison, my two bar solo build also does vet content, including vet trials and dungeons, and barely does 22K DPS on the 3M dummy. This heavy attack build does 10K more DPS, and even after the nerf will still do at least 5K more DPS. And no-one has turned down my solo build for vet content because I know how to do the role and I don't try to do trifecta prog groups. I play with like-minded players. And if your build is doing 20K+ DPS on a 3M dummy, it is effective enough for all content in the game.

And I’m literally sharing my experiences that I’ve been bullied for using this build. I’ve been kicked out a group dungeons at the last boss and mocked.

I don’t know which dummy is 3m I’m referring to the standard skeleton dummy not the parsing high end one with all the buffs I never did that dummy as I don’t have one.

You can’t compare your self to me we are different people different players with different abilities different disabilities and different levels of experience.

The skeleton is the 3M. 3M refers to the health the dummy has.

Honestly, personal experiences and anecdotes are irrelevant. You get bullied for using the build. Find better groups to run the build with. I don't get bullied for using the build, because I run with like minded people. It's is an easy fix to make. Don't play the game with people who don't want to play it with you the way you want to play it.

In the case of this nerf, the only thing that matters are objective numbers. And objectively, oakensoul heavy builds are going to be fine, at all levels of play. And objectively, I can hold 1 single button down for 2 minutes just as much as you can on a heavy attack build. And objectively on an oakensorc build, doing so gives you 29K DPS on the 3M dummy, without pressing a single skill. This does not require effort, this does not require timing. This require clicking and holding a trigger or mouse button, which is the minimum requirement for a heavy attack builds functionality.

I can’t always “find better groups” I work 7 days a week. I have a family to care for. When I come on if people in guilds aren’t on and I need transmuted to progress my character I have to deal with random people to do what I need to do. Not everyone is just online at the same time.

Everyone’s experience is relevant.
That’s just a snide thing to say.

I’m aware 3m refers to the health of the dummy im saying i use the normal skeleton one and never used the one to use referring too.

I mean if you want me to record my self playing holding down one button and not doing the damage you say ? I can gladly do it. I’m up for the challenge does anyone have a 3m dummy I can borrow ?
Becuase I bet you it will take me like 10
Minutes or more to kill it with much less dps. If I struggle on the basic skeleton.

The normal skeleton is the only 3M skeleton. Or at the very least, that is exactly what I am talking about.

On a trial dummy, just holding heavy attack down and not using skills nets around 70 DPS on the same build.

Your results are in sir you can see at the end of this thread in a 5 mill dummy you are not correct.

So, here is where you assess your build and see why you aren't hitting that obtainable number.

What blue CP slottables are you running?

I know you said your gear isn't fully upgraded, but that isn't going to do all that much. I am assuming you have the full sergeant and storm master setup. What is the other 1 piece set you are wearing, slimecraw is the best choice here. And your Mundus?

Of the two 5 piece sets, which are you running on your body and which on your jewelry. It makes a difference if the heavy set is on your body.

I’m using slimcraw as the monster helm.

Im using all the slottables recommended at lower amounts of points as I’m still low ep. All my gear is purple except for my staff which has a bad trait on it. 2 pieces have only divines on them. And I’m using the thief.

Once again the point is if they cut my build short farming for transmutes to make my build better will be much harder.

2 farming for xp
Will less easy due to not being able to take on world bosses anymore or things That gain more xp.

I’m well aware my build isn’t done… but the set up is by the book exactly what it needs to be for this build.

I just need more cp to add more points and to gold out my gear with better traits.

And yes 5 pieces of seargets and storm master plus slim craw with oakensoul.

And another point is why all this changes and push now if it will kick me back to this level say I gain 28k form these changes wil be knocked back down to 25 k anyway 🤷🏻‍♂️ so all this work to stay where in at and not progress.

I assure you, hitting 24K dps and losing 2-3K isn't going to impact your ability to do any of those things. As I already said, my normal build hits less than your incomplete build and it literally does all content and solos vet dungeons, trifecta Vateshran speed run craglorn vet trials, hardmodes, DLC vet dungeons and trials. All with less DPS. 20K DPS is more than enough for content in this game unless you are score pushing.

isadoraisacat · April 2023

jaws343 wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

SerafinaWaterstar wrote: »

I do not understand the devs reasoning - so what if the HA builds were reaching or in rare cases surpassing LA builds?

Where does it state that LA builds are the ‘sanctioned’ build?

This is not, as many have said previously, “Play how you like” 🤣

(And way to go to discriminate against those that find LA weaving/bar swapping difficult due to disabilities)

It says on the steam page basically play how you want. So I’d gather there is no developer determined set way to play. So I’d hope they would reconsider these changes.

Play how you want only means that there is various levels of content for different people.

Do you want to fish, you can do that. Do you want to pick flowers, you can do that too. PVP, Trials, solo content, overland questing, you can do all of that as well. You can pick the things you want to do, and do those things.

Play how you want DOES NOT mean that you can do all of those things with anything. You need to be properly equipped/prepared for them. You may want to fish, but you must have the necessary bait to do so. You may want to pick flowers, but certain CP and skill points are going to be necessary to be most efficient at it.

You can PVP, but if you don't equip yourself properly, you are not going to be effective.

Play how you want does not mean that whatever way you want to approach the different parts of content available are going to work. You can farm gear all you want, but it won't win you a ToT match or build your ToT deck. Just like being ill-equipped for PVE content isn't going to get you through that content.

That is all, it is available for you to do. But you still have to prepare yourself properly for it.

I don’t see a “play how you want as long as it’s weaving” in this anywhere.

This is not what we are talking about.
It says mix different armors and skills
Together for your own play style what is storm master / sergeant and oaken soul? And the associated dots we use with the build it’s all armors and skills. Seems like we are following zos meaning perfectly here with a HA build.

Mix any armors and skills. But if we can't agree that someone running Armor Master and Adept rider, and using only tank and healing skills, is going to be flat out awful in a DPS role in PVE content, then I really don't even know how to continue this conversation.

You can play any content you want, you can wear any set or no set at all. But you still need to make sure what you are wearing is effective for the content you want to do. It's that simple.

None of this even matters, because Storm Masters and Sergeant's will still be perfectly viable for vet content, including trials, next patch. But, you can also wear another set instead of Storm Masters and be just as viable. Because the DPs loss isn't that bad. It's not bad at all.

I even did some math in the other thread, I'll even add some more here.

On LIVE right now, on a Storm Master and Sergeants Oaken sorc build.

With pets out, but Zero skills being activated. Just holding the heavy attack button. The build does 29K DPS on a 3 million dummy. The base one, with no pen or debuffs. 29K DPS.

Activating skills bumps that up to 33K DPS. So, Heavy attacks+Storm Master +Sergeants+Shock enchant = 29K DPS.

That combo is roughly 87% of the 33K DPs parse.

So, a baseline of 29K DPS on that 3M with doing nothing but holding heavy attack. That portion of the parse is the only part that is losing damage. So let's say the doomsaying 20% amount that keeps getting thrown around, that means that portion will do 23.2K DPS + now the skills portion of the parse, you get 28.2K DPS, an overall 15% nerf to a full parse.

That 15% is worst case scenario, and as others have already shown, not the actual case. But even so, using your 25K limit, that 15% nerf is 21K damage.

Honestly, if people are going to reject a player for 21K DPS on a 3M dummy, they were going to reject you for 25K. Especially when a 29K parse on a 3M is possible without activating any skills and just heavy attacking.

At the same time, plenty of groups literally don't care as long as you aren't dying or not following mechanics.

Clearly the set up was affective we wouldn’t be here if it wasn’t the case.
[snip]

I am literally showing you the numbers from the oakenbuild I use and have saved in my armorer. I cleared VMA on it this morning for my best score ever, and I run it in vet trials.

The nerf in PTS is nothing of any import on the build. It will be fine post nerf and still be stronger than the average solo DPS setup.

If we really want to make a comparison, my two bar solo build also does vet content, including vet trials and dungeons, and barely does 22K DPS on the 3M dummy. This heavy attack build does 10K more DPS, and even after the nerf will still do at least 5K more DPS. And no-one has turned down my solo build for vet content because I know how to do the role and I don't try to do trifecta prog groups. I play with like-minded players. And if your build is doing 20K+ DPS on a 3M dummy, it is effective enough for all content in the game.

And I’m literally sharing my experiences that I’ve been bullied for using this build. I’ve been kicked out a group dungeons at the last boss and mocked.

I don’t know which dummy is 3m I’m referring to the standard skeleton dummy not the parsing high end one with all the buffs I never did that dummy as I don’t have one.

You can’t compare your self to me we are different people different players with different abilities different disabilities and different levels of experience.

The skeleton is the 3M. 3M refers to the health the dummy has.

Honestly, personal experiences and anecdotes are irrelevant. You get bullied for using the build. Find better groups to run the build with. I don't get bullied for using the build, because I run with like minded people. It's is an easy fix to make. Don't play the game with people who don't want to play it with you the way you want to play it.

In the case of this nerf, the only thing that matters are objective numbers. And objectively, oakensoul heavy builds are going to be fine, at all levels of play. And objectively, I can hold 1 single button down for 2 minutes just as much as you can on a heavy attack build. And objectively on an oakensorc build, doing so gives you 29K DPS on the 3M dummy, without pressing a single skill. This does not require effort, this does not require timing. This require clicking and holding a trigger or mouse button, which is the minimum requirement for a heavy attack builds functionality.

I can’t always “find better groups” I work 7 days a week. I have a family to care for. When I come on if people in guilds aren’t on and I need transmuted to progress my character I have to deal with random people to do what I need to do. Not everyone is just online at the same time.

Everyone’s experience is relevant.
That’s just a snide thing to say.

I’m aware 3m refers to the health of the dummy im saying i use the normal skeleton one and never used the one to use referring too.

I mean if you want me to record my self playing holding down one button and not doing the damage you say ? I can gladly do it. I’m up for the challenge does anyone have a 3m dummy I can borrow ?
Becuase I bet you it will take me like 10
Minutes or more to kill it with much less dps. If I struggle on the basic skeleton.

The normal skeleton is the only 3M skeleton. Or at the very least, that is exactly what I am talking about.

On a trial dummy, just holding heavy attack down and not using skills nets around 70 DPS on the same build.

Your results are in sir you can see at the end of this thread in a 5 mill dummy you are not correct.

So, here is where you assess your build and see why you aren't hitting that obtainable number.

What blue CP slottables are you running?

I know you said your gear isn't fully upgraded, but that isn't going to do all that much. I am assuming you have the full sergeant and storm master setup. What is the other 1 piece set you are wearing, slimecraw is the best choice here. And your Mundus?

Of the two 5 piece sets, which are you running on your body and which on your jewelry. It makes a difference if the heavy set is on your body.

I’m using slimcraw as the monster helm.

Im using all the slottables recommended at lower amounts of points as I’m still low ep. All my gear is purple except for my staff which has a bad trait on it. 2 pieces have only divines on them. And I’m using the thief.

Once again the point is if they cut my build short farming for transmutes to make my build better will be much harder.

2 farming for xp
Will less easy due to not being able to take on world bosses anymore or things That gain more xp.

I’m well aware my build isn’t done… but the set up is by the book exactly what it needs to be for this build.

I just need more cp to add more points and to gold out my gear with better traits.

And yes 5 pieces of seargets and storm master plus slim craw with oakensoul.

And another point is why all this changes and push now if it will kick me back to this level say I gain 28k form these changes wil be knocked back down to 25 k anyway 🤷🏻‍♂️ so all this work to stay where in at and not progress.

I assure you, hitting 24K dps and losing 2-3K isn't going to impact your ability to do any of those things. As I already said, my normal build hits less than your incomplete build and it literally does all content and solos vet dungeons, trifecta Vateshran speed run craglorn vet trials, hardmodes, DLC vet dungeons and trials. All with less DPS. 20K DPS is more than enough for content in this game unless you are score pushing.

Than why was I called “pathetic” and vote kicked out of a group dungeon? The point is people do want to play with us. And especially now after the nerf.

Edit : it was wayrest sewers 1
Vet I got vote kicked too a basics started dungeon even for vet

isadoraisacat · April 2023

jaws343 wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

SerafinaWaterstar wrote: »

I do not understand the devs reasoning - so what if the HA builds were reaching or in rare cases surpassing LA builds?

Where does it state that LA builds are the ‘sanctioned’ build?

This is not, as many have said previously, “Play how you like” 🤣

(And way to go to discriminate against those that find LA weaving/bar swapping difficult due to disabilities)

It says on the steam page basically play how you want. So I’d gather there is no developer determined set way to play. So I’d hope they would reconsider these changes.

Play how you want only means that there is various levels of content for different people.

Do you want to fish, you can do that. Do you want to pick flowers, you can do that too. PVP, Trials, solo content, overland questing, you can do all of that as well. You can pick the things you want to do, and do those things.

Play how you want DOES NOT mean that you can do all of those things with anything. You need to be properly equipped/prepared for them. You may want to fish, but you must have the necessary bait to do so. You may want to pick flowers, but certain CP and skill points are going to be necessary to be most efficient at it.

You can PVP, but if you don't equip yourself properly, you are not going to be effective.

Play how you want does not mean that whatever way you want to approach the different parts of content available are going to work. You can farm gear all you want, but it won't win you a ToT match or build your ToT deck. Just like being ill-equipped for PVE content isn't going to get you through that content.

That is all, it is available for you to do. But you still have to prepare yourself properly for it.

I don’t see a “play how you want as long as it’s weaving” in this anywhere.

This is not what we are talking about.
It says mix different armors and skills
Together for your own play style what is storm master / sergeant and oaken soul? And the associated dots we use with the build it’s all armors and skills. Seems like we are following zos meaning perfectly here with a HA build.

Mix any armors and skills. But if we can't agree that someone running Armor Master and Adept rider, and using only tank and healing skills, is going to be flat out awful in a DPS role in PVE content, then I really don't even know how to continue this conversation.

You can play any content you want, you can wear any set or no set at all. But you still need to make sure what you are wearing is effective for the content you want to do. It's that simple.

None of this even matters, because Storm Masters and Sergeant's will still be perfectly viable for vet content, including trials, next patch. But, you can also wear another set instead of Storm Masters and be just as viable. Because the DPs loss isn't that bad. It's not bad at all.

I even did some math in the other thread, I'll even add some more here.

On LIVE right now, on a Storm Master and Sergeants Oaken sorc build.

With pets out, but Zero skills being activated. Just holding the heavy attack button. The build does 29K DPS on a 3 million dummy. The base one, with no pen or debuffs. 29K DPS.

Activating skills bumps that up to 33K DPS. So, Heavy attacks+Storm Master +Sergeants+Shock enchant = 29K DPS.

That combo is roughly 87% of the 33K DPs parse.

So, a baseline of 29K DPS on that 3M with doing nothing but holding heavy attack. That portion of the parse is the only part that is losing damage. So let's say the doomsaying 20% amount that keeps getting thrown around, that means that portion will do 23.2K DPS + now the skills portion of the parse, you get 28.2K DPS, an overall 15% nerf to a full parse.

That 15% is worst case scenario, and as others have already shown, not the actual case. But even so, using your 25K limit, that 15% nerf is 21K damage.

Honestly, if people are going to reject a player for 21K DPS on a 3M dummy, they were going to reject you for 25K. Especially when a 29K parse on a 3M is possible without activating any skills and just heavy attacking.

At the same time, plenty of groups literally don't care as long as you aren't dying or not following mechanics.

Clearly the set up was affective we wouldn’t be here if it wasn’t the case.
[snip]

I am literally showing you the numbers from the oakenbuild I use and have saved in my armorer. I cleared VMA on it this morning for my best score ever, and I run it in vet trials.

The nerf in PTS is nothing of any import on the build. It will be fine post nerf and still be stronger than the average solo DPS setup.

If we really want to make a comparison, my two bar solo build also does vet content, including vet trials and dungeons, and barely does 22K DPS on the 3M dummy. This heavy attack build does 10K more DPS, and even after the nerf will still do at least 5K more DPS. And no-one has turned down my solo build for vet content because I know how to do the role and I don't try to do trifecta prog groups. I play with like-minded players. And if your build is doing 20K+ DPS on a 3M dummy, it is effective enough for all content in the game.

And I’m literally sharing my experiences that I’ve been bullied for using this build. I’ve been kicked out a group dungeons at the last boss and mocked.

I don’t know which dummy is 3m I’m referring to the standard skeleton dummy not the parsing high end one with all the buffs I never did that dummy as I don’t have one.

You can’t compare your self to me we are different people different players with different abilities different disabilities and different levels of experience.

The skeleton is the 3M. 3M refers to the health the dummy has.

Honestly, personal experiences and anecdotes are irrelevant. You get bullied for using the build. Find better groups to run the build with. I don't get bullied for using the build, because I run with like minded people. It's is an easy fix to make. Don't play the game with people who don't want to play it with you the way you want to play it.

In the case of this nerf, the only thing that matters are objective numbers. And objectively, oakensoul heavy builds are going to be fine, at all levels of play. And objectively, I can hold 1 single button down for 2 minutes just as much as you can on a heavy attack build. And objectively on an oakensorc build, doing so gives you 29K DPS on the 3M dummy, without pressing a single skill. This does not require effort, this does not require timing. This require clicking and holding a trigger or mouse button, which is the minimum requirement for a heavy attack builds functionality.

I can’t always “find better groups” I work 7 days a week. I have a family to care for. When I come on if people in guilds aren’t on and I need transmuted to progress my character I have to deal with random people to do what I need to do. Not everyone is just online at the same time.

Everyone’s experience is relevant.
That’s just a snide thing to say.

I’m aware 3m refers to the health of the dummy im saying i use the normal skeleton one and never used the one to use referring too.

I mean if you want me to record my self playing holding down one button and not doing the damage you say ? I can gladly do it. I’m up for the challenge does anyone have a 3m dummy I can borrow ?
Becuase I bet you it will take me like 10
Minutes or more to kill it with much less dps. If I struggle on the basic skeleton.

The normal skeleton is the only 3M skeleton. Or at the very least, that is exactly what I am talking about.

On a trial dummy, just holding heavy attack down and not using skills nets around 70 DPS on the same build.

Your results are in sir you can see at the end of this thread in a 5 mill dummy you are not correct.

So, here is where you assess your build and see why you aren't hitting that obtainable number.

What blue CP slottables are you running?

I know you said your gear isn't fully upgraded, but that isn't going to do all that much. I am assuming you have the full sergeant and storm master setup. What is the other 1 piece set you are wearing, slimecraw is the best choice here. And your Mundus?

Of the two 5 piece sets, which are you running on your body and which on your jewelry. It makes a difference if the heavy set is on your body.

I’m using slimcraw as the monster helm.

Im using all the slottables recommended at lower amounts of points as I’m still low ep. All my gear is purple except for my staff which has a bad trait on it. 2 pieces have only divines on them. And I’m using the thief.

Once again the point is if they cut my build short farming for transmutes to make my build better will be much harder.

2 farming for xp
Will less easy due to not being able to take on world bosses anymore or things That gain more xp.

I’m well aware my build isn’t done… but the set up is by the book exactly what it needs to be for this build.

I just need more cp to add more points and to gold out my gear with better traits.

And yes 5 pieces of seargets and storm master plus slim craw with oakensoul.

And another point is why all this changes and push now if it will kick me back to this level say I gain 28k form these changes wil be knocked back down to 25 k anyway 🤷🏻‍♂️ so all this work to stay where in at and not progress.

I assure you, hitting 24K dps and losing 2-3K isn't going to impact your ability to do any of those things. As I already said, my normal build hits less than your incomplete build and it literally does all content and solos vet dungeons, trifecta Vateshran speed run craglorn vet trials, hardmodes, DLC vet dungeons and trials. All with less DPS. 20K DPS is more than enough for content in this game unless you are score pushing.

Latest if you claim 20k is enough why are people so worried about HA attack doing more damage it should matter than.

jaws343 · April 2023

isadoraisacat wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

SerafinaWaterstar wrote: »

I do not understand the devs reasoning - so what if the HA builds were reaching or in rare cases surpassing LA builds?

Where does it state that LA builds are the ‘sanctioned’ build?

This is not, as many have said previously, “Play how you like” 🤣

(And way to go to discriminate against those that find LA weaving/bar swapping difficult due to disabilities)

It says on the steam page basically play how you want. So I’d gather there is no developer determined set way to play. So I’d hope they would reconsider these changes.

Play how you want only means that there is various levels of content for different people.

Do you want to fish, you can do that. Do you want to pick flowers, you can do that too. PVP, Trials, solo content, overland questing, you can do all of that as well. You can pick the things you want to do, and do those things.

Play how you want DOES NOT mean that you can do all of those things with anything. You need to be properly equipped/prepared for them. You may want to fish, but you must have the necessary bait to do so. You may want to pick flowers, but certain CP and skill points are going to be necessary to be most efficient at it.

You can PVP, but if you don't equip yourself properly, you are not going to be effective.

Play how you want does not mean that whatever way you want to approach the different parts of content available are going to work. You can farm gear all you want, but it won't win you a ToT match or build your ToT deck. Just like being ill-equipped for PVE content isn't going to get you through that content.

That is all, it is available for you to do. But you still have to prepare yourself properly for it.

I don’t see a “play how you want as long as it’s weaving” in this anywhere.

This is not what we are talking about.
It says mix different armors and skills
Together for your own play style what is storm master / sergeant and oaken soul? And the associated dots we use with the build it’s all armors and skills. Seems like we are following zos meaning perfectly here with a HA build.

Mix any armors and skills. But if we can't agree that someone running Armor Master and Adept rider, and using only tank and healing skills, is going to be flat out awful in a DPS role in PVE content, then I really don't even know how to continue this conversation.

You can play any content you want, you can wear any set or no set at all. But you still need to make sure what you are wearing is effective for the content you want to do. It's that simple.

None of this even matters, because Storm Masters and Sergeant's will still be perfectly viable for vet content, including trials, next patch. But, you can also wear another set instead of Storm Masters and be just as viable. Because the DPs loss isn't that bad. It's not bad at all.

I even did some math in the other thread, I'll even add some more here.

On LIVE right now, on a Storm Master and Sergeants Oaken sorc build.

With pets out, but Zero skills being activated. Just holding the heavy attack button. The build does 29K DPS on a 3 million dummy. The base one, with no pen or debuffs. 29K DPS.

Activating skills bumps that up to 33K DPS. So, Heavy attacks+Storm Master +Sergeants+Shock enchant = 29K DPS.

That combo is roughly 87% of the 33K DPs parse.

So, a baseline of 29K DPS on that 3M with doing nothing but holding heavy attack. That portion of the parse is the only part that is losing damage. So let's say the doomsaying 20% amount that keeps getting thrown around, that means that portion will do 23.2K DPS + now the skills portion of the parse, you get 28.2K DPS, an overall 15% nerf to a full parse.

That 15% is worst case scenario, and as others have already shown, not the actual case. But even so, using your 25K limit, that 15% nerf is 21K damage.

Honestly, if people are going to reject a player for 21K DPS on a 3M dummy, they were going to reject you for 25K. Especially when a 29K parse on a 3M is possible without activating any skills and just heavy attacking.

At the same time, plenty of groups literally don't care as long as you aren't dying or not following mechanics.

Clearly the set up was affective we wouldn’t be here if it wasn’t the case.
[snip]

I am literally showing you the numbers from the oakenbuild I use and have saved in my armorer. I cleared VMA on it this morning for my best score ever, and I run it in vet trials.

The nerf in PTS is nothing of any import on the build. It will be fine post nerf and still be stronger than the average solo DPS setup.

If we really want to make a comparison, my two bar solo build also does vet content, including vet trials and dungeons, and barely does 22K DPS on the 3M dummy. This heavy attack build does 10K more DPS, and even after the nerf will still do at least 5K more DPS. And no-one has turned down my solo build for vet content because I know how to do the role and I don't try to do trifecta prog groups. I play with like-minded players. And if your build is doing 20K+ DPS on a 3M dummy, it is effective enough for all content in the game.

And I’m literally sharing my experiences that I’ve been bullied for using this build. I’ve been kicked out a group dungeons at the last boss and mocked.

I don’t know which dummy is 3m I’m referring to the standard skeleton dummy not the parsing high end one with all the buffs I never did that dummy as I don’t have one.

You can’t compare your self to me we are different people different players with different abilities different disabilities and different levels of experience.

The skeleton is the 3M. 3M refers to the health the dummy has.

Honestly, personal experiences and anecdotes are irrelevant. You get bullied for using the build. Find better groups to run the build with. I don't get bullied for using the build, because I run with like minded people. It's is an easy fix to make. Don't play the game with people who don't want to play it with you the way you want to play it.

In the case of this nerf, the only thing that matters are objective numbers. And objectively, oakensoul heavy builds are going to be fine, at all levels of play. And objectively, I can hold 1 single button down for 2 minutes just as much as you can on a heavy attack build. And objectively on an oakensorc build, doing so gives you 29K DPS on the 3M dummy, without pressing a single skill. This does not require effort, this does not require timing. This require clicking and holding a trigger or mouse button, which is the minimum requirement for a heavy attack builds functionality.

I can’t always “find better groups” I work 7 days a week. I have a family to care for. When I come on if people in guilds aren’t on and I need transmuted to progress my character I have to deal with random people to do what I need to do. Not everyone is just online at the same time.

Everyone’s experience is relevant.
That’s just a snide thing to say.

I’m aware 3m refers to the health of the dummy im saying i use the normal skeleton one and never used the one to use referring too.

I mean if you want me to record my self playing holding down one button and not doing the damage you say ? I can gladly do it. I’m up for the challenge does anyone have a 3m dummy I can borrow ?
Becuase I bet you it will take me like 10
Minutes or more to kill it with much less dps. If I struggle on the basic skeleton.

The normal skeleton is the only 3M skeleton. Or at the very least, that is exactly what I am talking about.

On a trial dummy, just holding heavy attack down and not using skills nets around 70 DPS on the same build.

Your results are in sir you can see at the end of this thread in a 5 mill dummy you are not correct.

So, here is where you assess your build and see why you aren't hitting that obtainable number.

What blue CP slottables are you running?

I know you said your gear isn't fully upgraded, but that isn't going to do all that much. I am assuming you have the full sergeant and storm master setup. What is the other 1 piece set you are wearing, slimecraw is the best choice here. And your Mundus?

Of the two 5 piece sets, which are you running on your body and which on your jewelry. It makes a difference if the heavy set is on your body.

I’m using slimcraw as the monster helm.

Im using all the slottables recommended at lower amounts of points as I’m still low ep. All my gear is purple except for my staff which has a bad trait on it. 2 pieces have only divines on them. And I’m using the thief.

Once again the point is if they cut my build short farming for transmutes to make my build better will be much harder.

2 farming for xp
Will less easy due to not being able to take on world bosses anymore or things That gain more xp.

I’m well aware my build isn’t done… but the set up is by the book exactly what it needs to be for this build.

I just need more cp to add more points and to gold out my gear with better traits.

And yes 5 pieces of seargets and storm master plus slim craw with oakensoul.

And another point is why all this changes and push now if it will kick me back to this level say I gain 28k form these changes wil be knocked back down to 25 k anyway 🤷🏻‍♂️ so all this work to stay where in at and not progress.

I assure you, hitting 24K dps and losing 2-3K isn't going to impact your ability to do any of those things. As I already said, my normal build hits less than your incomplete build and it literally does all content and solos vet dungeons, trifecta Vateshran speed run craglorn vet trials, hardmodes, DLC vet dungeons and trials. All with less DPS. 20K DPS is more than enough for content in this game unless you are score pushing.

Than why was I called “pathetic” and vote kicked out of a group dungeon? The point is people do want to play with us. And especially now after the nerf.

Because awful people exist? It's an online game, that's pretty much inherent.

Find other people to play with. People get disparaged and talked down to in PUG groups all the time. I've seen players with twice as much DPS as you or I get belittled for "doing no damage". Just move on to the next team, or form your own group. There is zero chance you or any player is being belittled in every single dungeon they enter with every single group the join, unless they are drastically doing something wrong, like not following mechanics and dying constantly, or causing the group to wipe constantly, every time they join a group.

For an online game, players really cannot let a few encounters set the tone for content.

vsrs_au · April 2023

That's why I've never done a random group dungeon. I've seen more than enough accounts on this and other forums about how badly low DPS players get treated to dissuade me from ever trying it. My DPS rarely gets over 30k. As my character's level progresses, I've been slowly able to solo some group dungeons (only 8 so far), and no doubt with time I can do more.

So I can fully empathise, @isadoraisacat .

jaws343 · April 2023

isadoraisacat wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

SerafinaWaterstar wrote: »

I do not understand the devs reasoning - so what if the HA builds were reaching or in rare cases surpassing LA builds?

Where does it state that LA builds are the ‘sanctioned’ build?

This is not, as many have said previously, “Play how you like” 🤣

(And way to go to discriminate against those that find LA weaving/bar swapping difficult due to disabilities)

It says on the steam page basically play how you want. So I’d gather there is no developer determined set way to play. So I’d hope they would reconsider these changes.

Play how you want only means that there is various levels of content for different people.

Do you want to fish, you can do that. Do you want to pick flowers, you can do that too. PVP, Trials, solo content, overland questing, you can do all of that as well. You can pick the things you want to do, and do those things.

Play how you want DOES NOT mean that you can do all of those things with anything. You need to be properly equipped/prepared for them. You may want to fish, but you must have the necessary bait to do so. You may want to pick flowers, but certain CP and skill points are going to be necessary to be most efficient at it.

You can PVP, but if you don't equip yourself properly, you are not going to be effective.

Play how you want does not mean that whatever way you want to approach the different parts of content available are going to work. You can farm gear all you want, but it won't win you a ToT match or build your ToT deck. Just like being ill-equipped for PVE content isn't going to get you through that content.

That is all, it is available for you to do. But you still have to prepare yourself properly for it.

I don’t see a “play how you want as long as it’s weaving” in this anywhere.

This is not what we are talking about.
It says mix different armors and skills
Together for your own play style what is storm master / sergeant and oaken soul? And the associated dots we use with the build it’s all armors and skills. Seems like we are following zos meaning perfectly here with a HA build.

Mix any armors and skills. But if we can't agree that someone running Armor Master and Adept rider, and using only tank and healing skills, is going to be flat out awful in a DPS role in PVE content, then I really don't even know how to continue this conversation.

You can play any content you want, you can wear any set or no set at all. But you still need to make sure what you are wearing is effective for the content you want to do. It's that simple.

None of this even matters, because Storm Masters and Sergeant's will still be perfectly viable for vet content, including trials, next patch. But, you can also wear another set instead of Storm Masters and be just as viable. Because the DPs loss isn't that bad. It's not bad at all.

I even did some math in the other thread, I'll even add some more here.

On LIVE right now, on a Storm Master and Sergeants Oaken sorc build.

With pets out, but Zero skills being activated. Just holding the heavy attack button. The build does 29K DPS on a 3 million dummy. The base one, with no pen or debuffs. 29K DPS.

Activating skills bumps that up to 33K DPS. So, Heavy attacks+Storm Master +Sergeants+Shock enchant = 29K DPS.

That combo is roughly 87% of the 33K DPs parse.

So, a baseline of 29K DPS on that 3M with doing nothing but holding heavy attack. That portion of the parse is the only part that is losing damage. So let's say the doomsaying 20% amount that keeps getting thrown around, that means that portion will do 23.2K DPS + now the skills portion of the parse, you get 28.2K DPS, an overall 15% nerf to a full parse.

That 15% is worst case scenario, and as others have already shown, not the actual case. But even so, using your 25K limit, that 15% nerf is 21K damage.

Honestly, if people are going to reject a player for 21K DPS on a 3M dummy, they were going to reject you for 25K. Especially when a 29K parse on a 3M is possible without activating any skills and just heavy attacking.

At the same time, plenty of groups literally don't care as long as you aren't dying or not following mechanics.

Clearly the set up was affective we wouldn’t be here if it wasn’t the case.
[snip]

I am literally showing you the numbers from the oakenbuild I use and have saved in my armorer. I cleared VMA on it this morning for my best score ever, and I run it in vet trials.

The nerf in PTS is nothing of any import on the build. It will be fine post nerf and still be stronger than the average solo DPS setup.

If we really want to make a comparison, my two bar solo build also does vet content, including vet trials and dungeons, and barely does 22K DPS on the 3M dummy. This heavy attack build does 10K more DPS, and even after the nerf will still do at least 5K more DPS. And no-one has turned down my solo build for vet content because I know how to do the role and I don't try to do trifecta prog groups. I play with like-minded players. And if your build is doing 20K+ DPS on a 3M dummy, it is effective enough for all content in the game.

And I’m literally sharing my experiences that I’ve been bullied for using this build. I’ve been kicked out a group dungeons at the last boss and mocked.

I don’t know which dummy is 3m I’m referring to the standard skeleton dummy not the parsing high end one with all the buffs I never did that dummy as I don’t have one.

You can’t compare your self to me we are different people different players with different abilities different disabilities and different levels of experience.

The skeleton is the 3M. 3M refers to the health the dummy has.

Honestly, personal experiences and anecdotes are irrelevant. You get bullied for using the build. Find better groups to run the build with. I don't get bullied for using the build, because I run with like minded people. It's is an easy fix to make. Don't play the game with people who don't want to play it with you the way you want to play it.

In the case of this nerf, the only thing that matters are objective numbers. And objectively, oakensoul heavy builds are going to be fine, at all levels of play. And objectively, I can hold 1 single button down for 2 minutes just as much as you can on a heavy attack build. And objectively on an oakensorc build, doing so gives you 29K DPS on the 3M dummy, without pressing a single skill. This does not require effort, this does not require timing. This require clicking and holding a trigger or mouse button, which is the minimum requirement for a heavy attack builds functionality.

I can’t always “find better groups” I work 7 days a week. I have a family to care for. When I come on if people in guilds aren’t on and I need transmuted to progress my character I have to deal with random people to do what I need to do. Not everyone is just online at the same time.

Everyone’s experience is relevant.
That’s just a snide thing to say.

I’m aware 3m refers to the health of the dummy im saying i use the normal skeleton one and never used the one to use referring too.

I mean if you want me to record my self playing holding down one button and not doing the damage you say ? I can gladly do it. I’m up for the challenge does anyone have a 3m dummy I can borrow ?
Becuase I bet you it will take me like 10
Minutes or more to kill it with much less dps. If I struggle on the basic skeleton.

The normal skeleton is the only 3M skeleton. Or at the very least, that is exactly what I am talking about.

On a trial dummy, just holding heavy attack down and not using skills nets around 70 DPS on the same build.

Your results are in sir you can see at the end of this thread in a 5 mill dummy you are not correct.

So, here is where you assess your build and see why you aren't hitting that obtainable number.

What blue CP slottables are you running?

I know you said your gear isn't fully upgraded, but that isn't going to do all that much. I am assuming you have the full sergeant and storm master setup. What is the other 1 piece set you are wearing, slimecraw is the best choice here. And your Mundus?

Of the two 5 piece sets, which are you running on your body and which on your jewelry. It makes a difference if the heavy set is on your body.

I’m using slimcraw as the monster helm.

Im using all the slottables recommended at lower amounts of points as I’m still low ep. All my gear is purple except for my staff which has a bad trait on it. 2 pieces have only divines on them. And I’m using the thief.

Once again the point is if they cut my build short farming for transmutes to make my build better will be much harder.

2 farming for xp
Will less easy due to not being able to take on world bosses anymore or things That gain more xp.

I’m well aware my build isn’t done… but the set up is by the book exactly what it needs to be for this build.

I just need more cp to add more points and to gold out my gear with better traits.

And yes 5 pieces of seargets and storm master plus slim craw with oakensoul.

And another point is why all this changes and push now if it will kick me back to this level say I gain 28k form these changes wil be knocked back down to 25 k anyway 🤷🏻‍♂️ so all this work to stay where in at and not progress.

I assure you, hitting 24K dps and losing 2-3K isn't going to impact your ability to do any of those things. As I already said, my normal build hits less than your incomplete build and it literally does all content and solos vet dungeons, trifecta Vateshran speed run craglorn vet trials, hardmodes, DLC vet dungeons and trials. All with less DPS. 20K DPS is more than enough for content in this game unless you are score pushing.

Latest if you claim 20k is enough why are people so worried about HA attack doing more damage it should matter than.

I mean, look at my post history of the last few months of literally defending heavy attack oaken builds as fine.

The only time I had a problem with oakensoul was when it was released and it was broken in PVP and players could chain drop storm atros. Since they fixed that, zero complaints and in fact defense of them.

But let's be clear, on live right now, they truly are outperforming. I just scored the best score for Vet Maelstrom I have ever scored on my sorc using this build, with a tenth of the effort it takes my solo build to do the same content. It is, objectively, pretty absurd.

But, I also think it has enough drawbacks that it makes it ok. Simultaneously, I can see that it needed a reasonable adjustment. And frankly, this seems reasonable. A small nerf to empower and a set adjustment. Set adjustments happen all the time. And, let's be real here, when a set is performing so well that it is practically a requirement on a build, it is ALWAYS bound to get nerfed. There are other sets though, that will work just as well, that didn't get nerfed. Probably just about the same DPS that you are getting now with those sets and those sets don't rely on a critting fully charged heavy attack to work.

isadoraisacat · April 2023

vsrs_au wrote: »

That's why I've never done a random group dungeon. I've seen more than enough accounts on this and other forums about how badly low DPS players get treated to dissuade me from ever trying it. My DPS rarely gets over 30k. As my character's level progresses, I've been slowly able to solo some group dungeons (only 8 so far), and no doubt with time I can do more.

So I can fully empathise, @isadoraisacat .

Yeah it’s hard to get my friendly guild together to do the vet stuff to make my gear better but I think that’s what I’m gonna have to do

isadoraisacat · April 2023

jaws343 wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

SerafinaWaterstar wrote: »

I do not understand the devs reasoning - so what if the HA builds were reaching or in rare cases surpassing LA builds?

Where does it state that LA builds are the ‘sanctioned’ build?

This is not, as many have said previously, “Play how you like” 🤣

(And way to go to discriminate against those that find LA weaving/bar swapping difficult due to disabilities)

It says on the steam page basically play how you want. So I’d gather there is no developer determined set way to play. So I’d hope they would reconsider these changes.

Play how you want only means that there is various levels of content for different people.

Do you want to fish, you can do that. Do you want to pick flowers, you can do that too. PVP, Trials, solo content, overland questing, you can do all of that as well. You can pick the things you want to do, and do those things.

Play how you want DOES NOT mean that you can do all of those things with anything. You need to be properly equipped/prepared for them. You may want to fish, but you must have the necessary bait to do so. You may want to pick flowers, but certain CP and skill points are going to be necessary to be most efficient at it.

You can PVP, but if you don't equip yourself properly, you are not going to be effective.

Play how you want does not mean that whatever way you want to approach the different parts of content available are going to work. You can farm gear all you want, but it won't win you a ToT match or build your ToT deck. Just like being ill-equipped for PVE content isn't going to get you through that content.

That is all, it is available for you to do. But you still have to prepare yourself properly for it.

I don’t see a “play how you want as long as it’s weaving” in this anywhere.

This is not what we are talking about.
It says mix different armors and skills
Together for your own play style what is storm master / sergeant and oaken soul? And the associated dots we use with the build it’s all armors and skills. Seems like we are following zos meaning perfectly here with a HA build.

Mix any armors and skills. But if we can't agree that someone running Armor Master and Adept rider, and using only tank and healing skills, is going to be flat out awful in a DPS role in PVE content, then I really don't even know how to continue this conversation.

You can play any content you want, you can wear any set or no set at all. But you still need to make sure what you are wearing is effective for the content you want to do. It's that simple.

None of this even matters, because Storm Masters and Sergeant's will still be perfectly viable for vet content, including trials, next patch. But, you can also wear another set instead of Storm Masters and be just as viable. Because the DPs loss isn't that bad. It's not bad at all.

I even did some math in the other thread, I'll even add some more here.

On LIVE right now, on a Storm Master and Sergeants Oaken sorc build.

With pets out, but Zero skills being activated. Just holding the heavy attack button. The build does 29K DPS on a 3 million dummy. The base one, with no pen or debuffs. 29K DPS.

Activating skills bumps that up to 33K DPS. So, Heavy attacks+Storm Master +Sergeants+Shock enchant = 29K DPS.

That combo is roughly 87% of the 33K DPs parse.

So, a baseline of 29K DPS on that 3M with doing nothing but holding heavy attack. That portion of the parse is the only part that is losing damage. So let's say the doomsaying 20% amount that keeps getting thrown around, that means that portion will do 23.2K DPS + now the skills portion of the parse, you get 28.2K DPS, an overall 15% nerf to a full parse.

That 15% is worst case scenario, and as others have already shown, not the actual case. But even so, using your 25K limit, that 15% nerf is 21K damage.

Honestly, if people are going to reject a player for 21K DPS on a 3M dummy, they were going to reject you for 25K. Especially when a 29K parse on a 3M is possible without activating any skills and just heavy attacking.

At the same time, plenty of groups literally don't care as long as you aren't dying or not following mechanics.

Clearly the set up was affective we wouldn’t be here if it wasn’t the case.
[snip]

I am literally showing you the numbers from the oakenbuild I use and have saved in my armorer. I cleared VMA on it this morning for my best score ever, and I run it in vet trials.

The nerf in PTS is nothing of any import on the build. It will be fine post nerf and still be stronger than the average solo DPS setup.

If we really want to make a comparison, my two bar solo build also does vet content, including vet trials and dungeons, and barely does 22K DPS on the 3M dummy. This heavy attack build does 10K more DPS, and even after the nerf will still do at least 5K more DPS. And no-one has turned down my solo build for vet content because I know how to do the role and I don't try to do trifecta prog groups. I play with like-minded players. And if your build is doing 20K+ DPS on a 3M dummy, it is effective enough for all content in the game.

And I’m literally sharing my experiences that I’ve been bullied for using this build. I’ve been kicked out a group dungeons at the last boss and mocked.

I don’t know which dummy is 3m I’m referring to the standard skeleton dummy not the parsing high end one with all the buffs I never did that dummy as I don’t have one.

You can’t compare your self to me we are different people different players with different abilities different disabilities and different levels of experience.

The skeleton is the 3M. 3M refers to the health the dummy has.

Honestly, personal experiences and anecdotes are irrelevant. You get bullied for using the build. Find better groups to run the build with. I don't get bullied for using the build, because I run with like minded people. It's is an easy fix to make. Don't play the game with people who don't want to play it with you the way you want to play it.

In the case of this nerf, the only thing that matters are objective numbers. And objectively, oakensoul heavy builds are going to be fine, at all levels of play. And objectively, I can hold 1 single button down for 2 minutes just as much as you can on a heavy attack build. And objectively on an oakensorc build, doing so gives you 29K DPS on the 3M dummy, without pressing a single skill. This does not require effort, this does not require timing. This require clicking and holding a trigger or mouse button, which is the minimum requirement for a heavy attack builds functionality.

I can’t always “find better groups” I work 7 days a week. I have a family to care for. When I come on if people in guilds aren’t on and I need transmuted to progress my character I have to deal with random people to do what I need to do. Not everyone is just online at the same time.

Everyone’s experience is relevant.
That’s just a snide thing to say.

I’m aware 3m refers to the health of the dummy im saying i use the normal skeleton one and never used the one to use referring too.

I mean if you want me to record my self playing holding down one button and not doing the damage you say ? I can gladly do it. I’m up for the challenge does anyone have a 3m dummy I can borrow ?
Becuase I bet you it will take me like 10
Minutes or more to kill it with much less dps. If I struggle on the basic skeleton.

The normal skeleton is the only 3M skeleton. Or at the very least, that is exactly what I am talking about.

On a trial dummy, just holding heavy attack down and not using skills nets around 70 DPS on the same build.

Your results are in sir you can see at the end of this thread in a 5 mill dummy you are not correct.

So, here is where you assess your build and see why you aren't hitting that obtainable number.

What blue CP slottables are you running?

I know you said your gear isn't fully upgraded, but that isn't going to do all that much. I am assuming you have the full sergeant and storm master setup. What is the other 1 piece set you are wearing, slimecraw is the best choice here. And your Mundus?

Of the two 5 piece sets, which are you running on your body and which on your jewelry. It makes a difference if the heavy set is on your body.

I’m using slimcraw as the monster helm.

Im using all the slottables recommended at lower amounts of points as I’m still low ep. All my gear is purple except for my staff which has a bad trait on it. 2 pieces have only divines on them. And I’m using the thief.

Once again the point is if they cut my build short farming for transmutes to make my build better will be much harder.

2 farming for xp
Will less easy due to not being able to take on world bosses anymore or things That gain more xp.

I’m well aware my build isn’t done… but the set up is by the book exactly what it needs to be for this build.

I just need more cp to add more points and to gold out my gear with better traits.

And yes 5 pieces of seargets and storm master plus slim craw with oakensoul.

And another point is why all this changes and push now if it will kick me back to this level say I gain 28k form these changes wil be knocked back down to 25 k anyway 🤷🏻‍♂️ so all this work to stay where in at and not progress.

I assure you, hitting 24K dps and losing 2-3K isn't going to impact your ability to do any of those things. As I already said, my normal build hits less than your incomplete build and it literally does all content and solos vet dungeons, trifecta Vateshran speed run craglorn vet trials, hardmodes, DLC vet dungeons and trials. All with less DPS. 20K DPS is more than enough for content in this game unless you are score pushing.

Latest if you claim 20k is enough why are people so worried about HA attack doing more damage it should matter than.

I mean, look at my post history of the last few months of literally defending heavy attack oaken builds as fine.

The only time I had a problem with oakensoul was when it was released and it was broken in PVP and players could chain drop storm atros. Since they fixed that, zero complaints and in fact defense of them.

But let's be clear, on live right now, they truly are outperforming. I just scored the best score for Vet Maelstrom I have ever scored on my sorc using this build, with a tenth of the effort it takes my solo build to do the same content. It is, objectively, pretty absurd.

But, I also think it has enough drawbacks that it makes it ok. Simultaneously, I can see that it needed a reasonable adjustment. And frankly, this seems reasonable. A small nerf to empower and a set adjustment. Set adjustments happen all the time. And, let's be real here, when a set is performing so well that it is practically a requirement on a build, it is ALWAYS bound to get nerfed. There are other sets though, that will work just as well, that didn't get nerfed. Probably just about the same DPS that you are getting now with those sets and those sets don't rely on a critting fully charged heavy attack to work.

I understand what you are saying but you have to understand I have physical limitations and zero experience with mmo style of play. So comparing you to me is like comparing a black belt to a white belt.

I’m still working on my build this set back just makes doing that harder is my initial point. That’s all.

Galeriano · April 2023

isadoraisacat wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

loveeso wrote: »

Wow, I'm pleasantly surprised by the overwhelming number of replies! Thank you to everyone who took the time to share their thoughts on this topic. It's great to see so many insightful comments.

Hopefully, ZOS will take note of the community's concerns and reconsider their proposed changes to Storm Master and Empower before they go live with Necrom. I've noticed that there have been some misunderstandings regarding the extent of the nerf, with some suggesting it's only up to around 6%. However, I want to clarify that the numbers I provided earlier are not mere estimations or guesses, but actual results obtained from testing DPS in combat. So here are the accurate numbers once again.

SM Live vs PTS
-23.99% max DPS (-17.82% avg DPS)

The above DPS loss will be even worse in actual combat scenarios, because Storm Master uptimes (and thus DPS) are likely to decrease even further. This is due to the fact that if a player misses the 3-second window to deal critical damage (which is common since most HA builds have a critical chance of around 40-50%), the Storm Master buff falls off.

By the way, it's worth noting that the Undaunted Infiltrator set is not a viable alternative to Storm Master. In fact, it still falls short in comparison. Here's why:

SM Live vs Undaunted Infiltrator (UI) PTS
-24.96% max DPS (-20.64% avg DPS)

If you're interested in verifying these test results for yourself, it's easy to do so by logging into the PTS. Here are some more details on how to replicate the experiment:

Test Assumptions:
The purpose of this test is to evaluate how the proposed changes affect Heavy Attack DPS, so we are only interested in sets and abilities that are specific to Heavy Attack builds. Therefore, we will exclude sets and abilities that are not relevant to this test, such as Pillar of Nirn and Volatile Familiar.

To minimize confounding factors and isolate the variables under test, we need to control for various factors such as differences in builds, classes, player skill level, and random variations caused by Critical Rating and Critical Damage. The controlled variables for this experiment are:
The combat ruleset (live vs PTS)

The 5-piece body set used (Storm Master and Undaunted Infiltrator).

Body

1x L Slimecraw
1x Sergeant (heavy)
5x Strom Master or Undaunted Infiltrator (both medium)

Bar & Accessories

Sergeant's Mail (lightning, neck, ring)
Oakensoul Ring

Same abilities, attributes, CPs, mundus, and target dummy for every test build.

To minimize the impact of player-executed rotation on the test results, we used Heavy Attack weaving as the rotation for this experiment. The rotation used was as follows:
Wall

Heavy Attack

Heavy Attack

Heavy Attack

Heavy Attack

Results - see the beginning of this post (for details please see the image)

TL;DR
To summarize:
Based on the data collected, it appears that the proposed changes will result in a significant nerf to the maximum achievable Heavy Attack damage, with a reduction of approximately -24%. It's important to note that this test was conducted on a stationary target. In actual combat scenarios, Storm Master uptimes (and thus DPS) are likely to decrease even further. This is due to the fact that if a player misses the 3-second window to deal critical damage (which is common since most HA builds have a critical chance of around 40-50%), the Storm Master buff falls off.

I don’t think people realize how deadly of a hit this is giving to ha builds. I think it may render some of our builds for us low dps solo players useless.

I guess it’s back to sucking wind and doing quests with as little combat as possible now and not being able to use all the content I pay for. Unless they review these things and decide not to move forward with this.

Personally I was happy with my main character the dps I was getting for now and the content I was able to do because of it it (even tho it still needs a ton of work I was Still is a much better place I’d never reach other wise without this ).

Sorry, but the test you quoted is not accurate. One can't test the DPS loss like that because it will not be an accurate assessment on the impact of the build. You need to test the entire build or the numbers will be greatly skewed.

When testing a full build on PTS vs Live, you only see a 6% damage loss. This is because, while the nerf to Storm Master's may impact your HA damage by 20% or so, wearing it in tandem with other sets will mitigate that loss. HA damage also only accounts for around 70% of the DPS of a HA build, so your overall dps is not impacted by 20% like the quoted test states.

You can check my post in the PTS forum for an accurate comparison between full parses.

Oh ok. Well for someone like me who is only hitting 25k dps half finished with their build it’s a massive hit to me and will further make it harder to finish my build that’s already been nerfed.

It’s almost like you are defending the changes because it’s what you wanted it. Trust me I’ll never be able to out parse you lol
It’s not my goal. I was shooting for 30-40 k max and I’m only at 25k I’m striving to focus on the solo arenas and many people like me aren’t hitting high dps or even affect your groups what so ever.

Make a parse on 21M trial dummy not 3/6M one. It gives more reliable starting point to know where are You at with Your DPS.

I unfortunately don’t have one and my guild as far as I know doesn’t have one either.

You can teleport to the house of someone who have one if it's an open house. Just type this command in chat /script JumpToHouse("@house owner ID") and You will be able to teleport to the house of someone who have 21M trial dummy. So now just ask around for someone on Your server who have free to visit house with a trial dummy. There is plenty of people like that.

I’ll ask I don’t know anyone who has one and i do not believe my guilds have them.

But I’m telling your right now I’m not going to be holding down one button slaying gods it will be a very low and sad number. You are reallY overestimating it.

It's not that like have any expectations towards Your DPS. I just said that trial dummy is a more reliable source of data. You can also ask around for people like that in zone chats.

Just did a target blood nignt and got 19k dps

Once again this is holding down just the one button no dots. People are gravely over estimating the dps

Edit : with pets out but not activating them so without pets even less damage

This is actually what You can do just by holding down one button. You can literally put something heavy on LMB leave the room and still get over 80k.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pOBjX6xPw20

AScarlato · April 2023

isadoraisacat wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

SerafinaWaterstar wrote: »

I do not understand the devs reasoning - so what if the HA builds were reaching or in rare cases surpassing LA builds?

Where does it state that LA builds are the ‘sanctioned’ build?

This is not, as many have said previously, “Play how you like” 🤣

(And way to go to discriminate against those that find LA weaving/bar swapping difficult due to disabilities)

It says on the steam page basically play how you want. So I’d gather there is no developer determined set way to play. So I’d hope they would reconsider these changes.

Play how you want only means that there is various levels of content for different people.

Do you want to fish, you can do that. Do you want to pick flowers, you can do that too. PVP, Trials, solo content, overland questing, you can do all of that as well. You can pick the things you want to do, and do those things.

Play how you want DOES NOT mean that you can do all of those things with anything. You need to be properly equipped/prepared for them. You may want to fish, but you must have the necessary bait to do so. You may want to pick flowers, but certain CP and skill points are going to be necessary to be most efficient at it.

You can PVP, but if you don't equip yourself properly, you are not going to be effective.

Play how you want does not mean that whatever way you want to approach the different parts of content available are going to work. You can farm gear all you want, but it won't win you a ToT match or build your ToT deck. Just like being ill-equipped for PVE content isn't going to get you through that content.

That is all, it is available for you to do. But you still have to prepare yourself properly for it.

I don’t see a “play how you want as long as it’s weaving” in this anywhere.

This is not what we are talking about.
It says mix different armors and skills
Together for your own play style what is storm master / sergeant and oaken soul? And the associated dots we use with the build it’s all armors and skills. Seems like we are following zos meaning perfectly here with a HA build.

Mix any armors and skills. But if we can't agree that someone running Armor Master and Adept rider, and using only tank and healing skills, is going to be flat out awful in a DPS role in PVE content, then I really don't even know how to continue this conversation.

You can play any content you want, you can wear any set or no set at all. But you still need to make sure what you are wearing is effective for the content you want to do. It's that simple.

None of this even matters, because Storm Masters and Sergeant's will still be perfectly viable for vet content, including trials, next patch. But, you can also wear another set instead of Storm Masters and be just as viable. Because the DPs loss isn't that bad. It's not bad at all.

I even did some math in the other thread, I'll even add some more here.

On LIVE right now, on a Storm Master and Sergeants Oaken sorc build.

With pets out, but Zero skills being activated. Just holding the heavy attack button. The build does 29K DPS on a 3 million dummy. The base one, with no pen or debuffs. 29K DPS.

Activating skills bumps that up to 33K DPS. So, Heavy attacks+Storm Master +Sergeants+Shock enchant = 29K DPS.

That combo is roughly 87% of the 33K DPs parse.

So, a baseline of 29K DPS on that 3M with doing nothing but holding heavy attack. That portion of the parse is the only part that is losing damage. So let's say the doomsaying 20% amount that keeps getting thrown around, that means that portion will do 23.2K DPS + now the skills portion of the parse, you get 28.2K DPS, an overall 15% nerf to a full parse.

That 15% is worst case scenario, and as others have already shown, not the actual case. But even so, using your 25K limit, that 15% nerf is 21K damage.

Honestly, if people are going to reject a player for 21K DPS on a 3M dummy, they were going to reject you for 25K. Especially when a 29K parse on a 3M is possible without activating any skills and just heavy attacking.

At the same time, plenty of groups literally don't care as long as you aren't dying or not following mechanics.

Clearly the set up was affective we wouldn’t be here if it wasn’t the case.
[snip]

I am literally showing you the numbers from the oakenbuild I use and have saved in my armorer. I cleared VMA on it this morning for my best score ever, and I run it in vet trials.

The nerf in PTS is nothing of any import on the build. It will be fine post nerf and still be stronger than the average solo DPS setup.

If we really want to make a comparison, my two bar solo build also does vet content, including vet trials and dungeons, and barely does 22K DPS on the 3M dummy. This heavy attack build does 10K more DPS, and even after the nerf will still do at least 5K more DPS. And no-one has turned down my solo build for vet content because I know how to do the role and I don't try to do trifecta prog groups. I play with like-minded players. And if your build is doing 20K+ DPS on a 3M dummy, it is effective enough for all content in the game.

And I’m literally sharing my experiences that I’ve been bullied for using this build. I’ve been kicked out a group dungeons at the last boss and mocked.

I don’t know which dummy is 3m I’m referring to the standard skeleton dummy not the parsing high end one with all the buffs I never did that dummy as I don’t have one.

You can’t compare your self to me we are different people different players with different abilities different disabilities and different levels of experience.

The skeleton is the 3M. 3M refers to the health the dummy has.

Honestly, personal experiences and anecdotes are irrelevant. You get bullied for using the build. Find better groups to run the build with. I don't get bullied for using the build, because I run with like minded people. It's is an easy fix to make. Don't play the game with people who don't want to play it with you the way you want to play it.

In the case of this nerf, the only thing that matters are objective numbers. And objectively, oakensoul heavy builds are going to be fine, at all levels of play. And objectively, I can hold 1 single button down for 2 minutes just as much as you can on a heavy attack build. And objectively on an oakensorc build, doing so gives you 29K DPS on the 3M dummy, without pressing a single skill. This does not require effort, this does not require timing. This require clicking and holding a trigger or mouse button, which is the minimum requirement for a heavy attack builds functionality.

I can’t always “find better groups” I work 7 days a week. I have a family to care for. When I come on if people in guilds aren’t on and I need transmuted to progress my character I have to deal with random people to do what I need to do. Not everyone is just online at the same time.

Everyone’s experience is relevant.
That’s just a snide thing to say.

I’m aware 3m refers to the health of the dummy im saying i use the normal skeleton one and never used the one to use referring too.

I mean if you want me to record my self playing holding down one button and not doing the damage you say ? I can gladly do it. I’m up for the challenge does anyone have a 3m dummy I can borrow ?
Becuase I bet you it will take me like 10
Minutes or more to kill it with much less dps. If I struggle on the basic skeleton.

The normal skeleton is the only 3M skeleton. Or at the very least, that is exactly what I am talking about.

On a trial dummy, just holding heavy attack down and not using skills nets around 70 DPS on the same build.

Your results are in sir you can see at the end of this thread in a 5 mill dummy you are not correct.

So, here is where you assess your build and see why you aren't hitting that obtainable number.

What blue CP slottables are you running?

I know you said your gear isn't fully upgraded, but that isn't going to do all that much. I am assuming you have the full sergeant and storm master setup. What is the other 1 piece set you are wearing, slimecraw is the best choice here. And your Mundus?

Of the two 5 piece sets, which are you running on your body and which on your jewelry. It makes a difference if the heavy set is on your body.

I’m using slimcraw as the monster helm.

Im using all the slottables recommended at lower amounts of points as I’m still low ep. All my gear is purple except for my staff which has a bad trait on it. 2 pieces have only divines on them. And I’m using the thief.

Once again the point is if they cut my build short farming for transmutes to make my build better will be much harder.

2 farming for xp
Will less easy due to not being able to take on world bosses anymore or things That gain more xp.

I’m well aware my build isn’t done… but the set up is by the book exactly what it needs to be for this build.

I just need more cp to add more points and to gold out my gear with better traits.

And yes 5 pieces of seargets and storm master plus slim craw with oakensoul.

And another point is why all this changes and push now if it will kick me back to this level say I gain 28k form these changes wil be knocked back down to 25 k anyway 🤷🏻‍♂️ so all this work to stay where in at and not progress.

I assure you, hitting 24K dps and losing 2-3K isn't going to impact your ability to do any of those things. As I already said, my normal build hits less than your incomplete build and it literally does all content and solos vet dungeons, trifecta Vateshran speed run craglorn vet trials, hardmodes, DLC vet dungeons and trials. All with less DPS. 20K DPS is more than enough for content in this game unless you are score pushing.

Latest if you claim 20k is enough why are people so worried about HA attack doing more damage it should matter than.

I mean, look at my post history of the last few months of literally defending heavy attack oaken builds as fine.

The only time I had a problem with oakensoul was when it was released and it was broken in PVP and players could chain drop storm atros. Since they fixed that, zero complaints and in fact defense of them.

But let's be clear, on live right now, they truly are outperforming. I just scored the best score for Vet Maelstrom I have ever scored on my sorc using this build, with a tenth of the effort it takes my solo build to do the same content. It is, objectively, pretty absurd.

But, I also think it has enough drawbacks that it makes it ok. Simultaneously, I can see that it needed a reasonable adjustment. And frankly, this seems reasonable. A small nerf to empower and a set adjustment. Set adjustments happen all the time. And, let's be real here, when a set is performing so well that it is practically a requirement on a build, it is ALWAYS bound to get nerfed. There are other sets though, that will work just as well, that didn't get nerfed. Probably just about the same DPS that you are getting now with those sets and those sets don't rely on a critting fully charged heavy attack to work.

I understand what you are saying but you have to understand I have physical limitations and zero experience with mmo style of play. So comparing you to me is like comparing a black belt to a white belt.

I’m still working on my build this set back just makes doing that harder is my initial point. That’s all.

I think being nerfed just never feels good. Especially for everyone who isn’t the very small minority of top tier players these decisions seem to be based around. It’s like being 50 in a marathon of 100 people and being knocked down and being told it’s okay, just sprint to to get back to 50th. Easy to say from the vantage point of those who aren’t nerfed or who actively desired these nerfs based on numbers being thrown out that were accomplished by a tiny minutiae of the player base.

I will concede that the YouTube video posted is kinda dumb lol (meaning I’m surprised at this much dps for just holding down a button). Has there been any nerfs since 4 months ago or is that where we are now? Again I’m not playing sorc and only got this last week.

Galeriano · April 2023

AScarlato wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

SerafinaWaterstar wrote: »

I do not understand the devs reasoning - so what if the HA builds were reaching or in rare cases surpassing LA builds?

Where does it state that LA builds are the ‘sanctioned’ build?

This is not, as many have said previously, “Play how you like” 🤣

(And way to go to discriminate against those that find LA weaving/bar swapping difficult due to disabilities)

It says on the steam page basically play how you want. So I’d gather there is no developer determined set way to play. So I’d hope they would reconsider these changes.

Play how you want only means that there is various levels of content for different people.

Do you want to fish, you can do that. Do you want to pick flowers, you can do that too. PVP, Trials, solo content, overland questing, you can do all of that as well. You can pick the things you want to do, and do those things.

Play how you want DOES NOT mean that you can do all of those things with anything. You need to be properly equipped/prepared for them. You may want to fish, but you must have the necessary bait to do so. You may want to pick flowers, but certain CP and skill points are going to be necessary to be most efficient at it.

You can PVP, but if you don't equip yourself properly, you are not going to be effective.

Play how you want does not mean that whatever way you want to approach the different parts of content available are going to work. You can farm gear all you want, but it won't win you a ToT match or build your ToT deck. Just like being ill-equipped for PVE content isn't going to get you through that content.

That is all, it is available for you to do. But you still have to prepare yourself properly for it.

I don’t see a “play how you want as long as it’s weaving” in this anywhere.

This is not what we are talking about.
It says mix different armors and skills
Together for your own play style what is storm master / sergeant and oaken soul? And the associated dots we use with the build it’s all armors and skills. Seems like we are following zos meaning perfectly here with a HA build.

Mix any armors and skills. But if we can't agree that someone running Armor Master and Adept rider, and using only tank and healing skills, is going to be flat out awful in a DPS role in PVE content, then I really don't even know how to continue this conversation.

You can play any content you want, you can wear any set or no set at all. But you still need to make sure what you are wearing is effective for the content you want to do. It's that simple.

None of this even matters, because Storm Masters and Sergeant's will still be perfectly viable for vet content, including trials, next patch. But, you can also wear another set instead of Storm Masters and be just as viable. Because the DPs loss isn't that bad. It's not bad at all.

I even did some math in the other thread, I'll even add some more here.

On LIVE right now, on a Storm Master and Sergeants Oaken sorc build.

With pets out, but Zero skills being activated. Just holding the heavy attack button. The build does 29K DPS on a 3 million dummy. The base one, with no pen or debuffs. 29K DPS.

Activating skills bumps that up to 33K DPS. So, Heavy attacks+Storm Master +Sergeants+Shock enchant = 29K DPS.

That combo is roughly 87% of the 33K DPs parse.

So, a baseline of 29K DPS on that 3M with doing nothing but holding heavy attack. That portion of the parse is the only part that is losing damage. So let's say the doomsaying 20% amount that keeps getting thrown around, that means that portion will do 23.2K DPS + now the skills portion of the parse, you get 28.2K DPS, an overall 15% nerf to a full parse.

That 15% is worst case scenario, and as others have already shown, not the actual case. But even so, using your 25K limit, that 15% nerf is 21K damage.

Honestly, if people are going to reject a player for 21K DPS on a 3M dummy, they were going to reject you for 25K. Especially when a 29K parse on a 3M is possible without activating any skills and just heavy attacking.

At the same time, plenty of groups literally don't care as long as you aren't dying or not following mechanics.

Clearly the set up was affective we wouldn’t be here if it wasn’t the case.
[snip]

I am literally showing you the numbers from the oakenbuild I use and have saved in my armorer. I cleared VMA on it this morning for my best score ever, and I run it in vet trials.

The nerf in PTS is nothing of any import on the build. It will be fine post nerf and still be stronger than the average solo DPS setup.

If we really want to make a comparison, my two bar solo build also does vet content, including vet trials and dungeons, and barely does 22K DPS on the 3M dummy. This heavy attack build does 10K more DPS, and even after the nerf will still do at least 5K more DPS. And no-one has turned down my solo build for vet content because I know how to do the role and I don't try to do trifecta prog groups. I play with like-minded players. And if your build is doing 20K+ DPS on a 3M dummy, it is effective enough for all content in the game.

And I’m literally sharing my experiences that I’ve been bullied for using this build. I’ve been kicked out a group dungeons at the last boss and mocked.

I don’t know which dummy is 3m I’m referring to the standard skeleton dummy not the parsing high end one with all the buffs I never did that dummy as I don’t have one.

You can’t compare your self to me we are different people different players with different abilities different disabilities and different levels of experience.

The skeleton is the 3M. 3M refers to the health the dummy has.

Honestly, personal experiences and anecdotes are irrelevant. You get bullied for using the build. Find better groups to run the build with. I don't get bullied for using the build, because I run with like minded people. It's is an easy fix to make. Don't play the game with people who don't want to play it with you the way you want to play it.

In the case of this nerf, the only thing that matters are objective numbers. And objectively, oakensoul heavy builds are going to be fine, at all levels of play. And objectively, I can hold 1 single button down for 2 minutes just as much as you can on a heavy attack build. And objectively on an oakensorc build, doing so gives you 29K DPS on the 3M dummy, without pressing a single skill. This does not require effort, this does not require timing. This require clicking and holding a trigger or mouse button, which is the minimum requirement for a heavy attack builds functionality.

I can’t always “find better groups” I work 7 days a week. I have a family to care for. When I come on if people in guilds aren’t on and I need transmuted to progress my character I have to deal with random people to do what I need to do. Not everyone is just online at the same time.

Everyone’s experience is relevant.
That’s just a snide thing to say.

I’m aware 3m refers to the health of the dummy im saying i use the normal skeleton one and never used the one to use referring too.

I mean if you want me to record my self playing holding down one button and not doing the damage you say ? I can gladly do it. I’m up for the challenge does anyone have a 3m dummy I can borrow ?
Becuase I bet you it will take me like 10
Minutes or more to kill it with much less dps. If I struggle on the basic skeleton.

The normal skeleton is the only 3M skeleton. Or at the very least, that is exactly what I am talking about.

On a trial dummy, just holding heavy attack down and not using skills nets around 70 DPS on the same build.

Your results are in sir you can see at the end of this thread in a 5 mill dummy you are not correct.

So, here is where you assess your build and see why you aren't hitting that obtainable number.

What blue CP slottables are you running?

I know you said your gear isn't fully upgraded, but that isn't going to do all that much. I am assuming you have the full sergeant and storm master setup. What is the other 1 piece set you are wearing, slimecraw is the best choice here. And your Mundus?

Of the two 5 piece sets, which are you running on your body and which on your jewelry. It makes a difference if the heavy set is on your body.

I’m using slimcraw as the monster helm.

Im using all the slottables recommended at lower amounts of points as I’m still low ep. All my gear is purple except for my staff which has a bad trait on it. 2 pieces have only divines on them. And I’m using the thief.

Once again the point is if they cut my build short farming for transmutes to make my build better will be much harder.

2 farming for xp
Will less easy due to not being able to take on world bosses anymore or things That gain more xp.

I’m well aware my build isn’t done… but the set up is by the book exactly what it needs to be for this build.

I just need more cp to add more points and to gold out my gear with better traits.

And yes 5 pieces of seargets and storm master plus slim craw with oakensoul.

And another point is why all this changes and push now if it will kick me back to this level say I gain 28k form these changes wil be knocked back down to 25 k anyway 🤷🏻‍♂️ so all this work to stay where in at and not progress.

I assure you, hitting 24K dps and losing 2-3K isn't going to impact your ability to do any of those things. As I already said, my normal build hits less than your incomplete build and it literally does all content and solos vet dungeons, trifecta Vateshran speed run craglorn vet trials, hardmodes, DLC vet dungeons and trials. All with less DPS. 20K DPS is more than enough for content in this game unless you are score pushing.

Latest if you claim 20k is enough why are people so worried about HA attack doing more damage it should matter than.

I mean, look at my post history of the last few months of literally defending heavy attack oaken builds as fine.

The only time I had a problem with oakensoul was when it was released and it was broken in PVP and players could chain drop storm atros. Since they fixed that, zero complaints and in fact defense of them.

But let's be clear, on live right now, they truly are outperforming. I just scored the best score for Vet Maelstrom I have ever scored on my sorc using this build, with a tenth of the effort it takes my solo build to do the same content. It is, objectively, pretty absurd.

But, I also think it has enough drawbacks that it makes it ok. Simultaneously, I can see that it needed a reasonable adjustment. And frankly, this seems reasonable. A small nerf to empower and a set adjustment. Set adjustments happen all the time. And, let's be real here, when a set is performing so well that it is practically a requirement on a build, it is ALWAYS bound to get nerfed. There are other sets though, that will work just as well, that didn't get nerfed. Probably just about the same DPS that you are getting now with those sets and those sets don't rely on a critting fully charged heavy attack to work.

I understand what you are saying but you have to understand I have physical limitations and zero experience with mmo style of play. So comparing you to me is like comparing a black belt to a white belt.

I’m still working on my build this set back just makes doing that harder is my initial point. That’s all.

I think being nerfed just never feels good. Especially for everyone who isn’t the very small minority of top tier players these decisions seem to be based around. It’s like being 50 in a marathon of 100 people and being knocked down and being told it’s okay, just sprint to to get back to 50th. Easy to say from the vantage point of those who aren’t nerfed or who actively desired these nerfs based on numbers being thrown out that were accomplished by a tiny minutiae of the player base.

I will concede that the YouTube video posted is kinda dumb lol (meaning I’m surprised at this much dps for just holding down a button). Has there been any nerfs since 4 months ago or is that where we are now? Again I’m not playing sorc and only got this last week.

Top tier players are not even running with this setup so it's hardly a decision based around them. It's mid and low tier players that still want to play something else that got affected the most by oakensoul HA setups.

No nerfs since then. You can still get over 80k on live server by pressing 1 button.

CameraBeardThePirate · April 2023

loveeso wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

loveeso wrote: »

To summarize:
Based on the data collected, it appears that the proposed changes will result in a significant nerf to the maximum achievable Heavy Attack damage, with a reduction of approximately -24%. It's important to note that this test was conducted on a stationary target. In actual combat scenarios, Storm Master uptimes (and thus DPS) are likely to decrease even further. This is due to the fact that if a player misses the 3-second window to deal critical damage (which is common since most HA builds have a critical chance of around 40-50%), the Storm Master buff falls off.

I don’t think people realize how deadly of a hit this is giving to ha builds. I think it may render some of our builds for us low dps solo players useless.

I guess it’s back to sucking wind and doing quests with as little combat as possible now and not being able to use all the content I pay for. Unless they review these things and decide not to move forward with this.

Personally I was happy with my main character the dps I was getting for now and the content I was able to do because of it it (even tho it still needs a ton of work I was Still is a much better place I’d never reach other wise without this ).

Sorry, but the test you quoted is not accurate. One can't test the DPS loss like that because it will not be an accurate assessment on the impact of the build. You need to test the entire build or the numbers will be greatly skewed.

When testing a full build on PTS vs Live, you only see a 6% damage loss. This is because, while the nerf to Storm Master's may impact your HA damage by 20% or so, wearing it in tandem with other sets will mitigate that loss. HA damage also only accounts for around 70% of the DPS of a HA build, so your overall dps is not impacted by 20% like the quoted test states.

You can check my post in the PTS forum for an accurate comparison between full parses.

If you are referring to your post here:

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/631804/heavy-attack-nerf-by-the-numbers/p1

then there is no accurate comparison between full parses there. Just woulda, coulda, shoulda .

The test you criticised as “inaccurate” was designed and performed in order for us to know the real impact of these changes on HA builds. It was designed to be universal, so that it does not make assumptions with regard to what class, skills or rotations people using HA builds would or should use. All this was clearly explained in the test description.
Last but not least, the test was designed and executed so that we can stop “guesstimating” (what you called “math” in your post the link to which I posted above) and instead acquire REAL data.

I remember you have already been asked in this thread to test your guesses re. “no more than 6% DPS nerf” on the PTS and provide us with some real data, like a parse showing 95.28k you claim your chosen 101k+ build “should” achieve on the PTS. That would still mean nothing more than “the impact of these nerfs on this particular build (out of tens of different builds others may prefer) is 6%” but that at least would be a useful data point for us. As for guesstimations and woulda, coulda, shoulda, these aren’t worth much when they collide with hard data.

As for your comment about “the test is wrong because wearing SM in tandem with other sets will mitigate that loss” it doesn’t make much sense. In the test description it was clearly stated that SM was worn together with other sets - the best sets in slot for HA builds - haven’t you noticed that?
Speaking of SM, I seem to remember that earlier in this thread you claimed one could replace SM with UI which would mitigate the nerf - well, the test you just criticised did take your proposed solution into account and demonstrated that UI was performing worse than SM, even after the nerf, so that statement was also factually incorrect.

Let me point out just one last flaw in what you wrote. Making hypotheses about a single build you selected and extrapolating that on all the other HA builds people may want to play doesn’t make sense at all, even if you decided to go and test it instead of guesstimating. Not everyone who likes the HA playstyle wants to use an Altmer sorcerer without self-heals, weaving Wall, Unstable Familiar, Twilight Tormentor, and Daedric Prey every six seconds between heavy attacks. Some people don’t like to be Gandalf with imps. Others don’t even like to be a sorcerer - they prefer something else, for example a nightblade. Others just want to do what HA-haters kept accusing them of for the last few months and… use just one button to do damage. Really, if one follows your line of reasoning, one might just as well say: “After the nerf I will still be able to do 120k+ on my Zaan+Rele+Pillar daggers & greatsword HA build because I only heavy-attack once per 20 seconds so this 20-30% nerf to heavy attacks, which only constitute 1% of my overall DPS, will decrease my DPS by 0.2%. I just proved that the HA nerf is not over 20%, it’s just 0.2%”. I hope it’s clear now that there are serious methodological errors in what you wrote.

It seems in your determination to prove me wrong, you missed the comment I referred to in my post that explicitly compares a parse on live to a parse on PTS.

isadoraisacat · April 2023

Galeriano wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

loveeso wrote: »

Wow, I'm pleasantly surprised by the overwhelming number of replies! Thank you to everyone who took the time to share their thoughts on this topic. It's great to see so many insightful comments.

Hopefully, ZOS will take note of the community's concerns and reconsider their proposed changes to Storm Master and Empower before they go live with Necrom. I've noticed that there have been some misunderstandings regarding the extent of the nerf, with some suggesting it's only up to around 6%. However, I want to clarify that the numbers I provided earlier are not mere estimations or guesses, but actual results obtained from testing DPS in combat. So here are the accurate numbers once again.

SM Live vs PTS
-23.99% max DPS (-17.82% avg DPS)

The above DPS loss will be even worse in actual combat scenarios, because Storm Master uptimes (and thus DPS) are likely to decrease even further. This is due to the fact that if a player misses the 3-second window to deal critical damage (which is common since most HA builds have a critical chance of around 40-50%), the Storm Master buff falls off.

By the way, it's worth noting that the Undaunted Infiltrator set is not a viable alternative to Storm Master. In fact, it still falls short in comparison. Here's why:

SM Live vs Undaunted Infiltrator (UI) PTS
-24.96% max DPS (-20.64% avg DPS)

If you're interested in verifying these test results for yourself, it's easy to do so by logging into the PTS. Here are some more details on how to replicate the experiment:

Test Assumptions:
The purpose of this test is to evaluate how the proposed changes affect Heavy Attack DPS, so we are only interested in sets and abilities that are specific to Heavy Attack builds. Therefore, we will exclude sets and abilities that are not relevant to this test, such as Pillar of Nirn and Volatile Familiar.

To minimize confounding factors and isolate the variables under test, we need to control for various factors such as differences in builds, classes, player skill level, and random variations caused by Critical Rating and Critical Damage. The controlled variables for this experiment are:
The combat ruleset (live vs PTS)

The 5-piece body set used (Storm Master and Undaunted Infiltrator).

Body

1x L Slimecraw
1x Sergeant (heavy)
5x Strom Master or Undaunted Infiltrator (both medium)

Bar & Accessories

Sergeant's Mail (lightning, neck, ring)
Oakensoul Ring

Same abilities, attributes, CPs, mundus, and target dummy for every test build.

To minimize the impact of player-executed rotation on the test results, we used Heavy Attack weaving as the rotation for this experiment. The rotation used was as follows:
Wall

Heavy Attack

Heavy Attack

Heavy Attack

Heavy Attack

Results - see the beginning of this post (for details please see the image)

TL;DR
To summarize:
Based on the data collected, it appears that the proposed changes will result in a significant nerf to the maximum achievable Heavy Attack damage, with a reduction of approximately -24%. It's important to note that this test was conducted on a stationary target. In actual combat scenarios, Storm Master uptimes (and thus DPS) are likely to decrease even further. This is due to the fact that if a player misses the 3-second window to deal critical damage (which is common since most HA builds have a critical chance of around 40-50%), the Storm Master buff falls off.

I don’t think people realize how deadly of a hit this is giving to ha builds. I think it may render some of our builds for us low dps solo players useless.

I guess it’s back to sucking wind and doing quests with as little combat as possible now and not being able to use all the content I pay for. Unless they review these things and decide not to move forward with this.

Personally I was happy with my main character the dps I was getting for now and the content I was able to do because of it it (even tho it still needs a ton of work I was Still is a much better place I’d never reach other wise without this ).

Sorry, but the test you quoted is not accurate. One can't test the DPS loss like that because it will not be an accurate assessment on the impact of the build. You need to test the entire build or the numbers will be greatly skewed.

When testing a full build on PTS vs Live, you only see a 6% damage loss. This is because, while the nerf to Storm Master's may impact your HA damage by 20% or so, wearing it in tandem with other sets will mitigate that loss. HA damage also only accounts for around 70% of the DPS of a HA build, so your overall dps is not impacted by 20% like the quoted test states.

You can check my post in the PTS forum for an accurate comparison between full parses.

Oh ok. Well for someone like me who is only hitting 25k dps half finished with their build it’s a massive hit to me and will further make it harder to finish my build that’s already been nerfed.

It’s almost like you are defending the changes because it’s what you wanted it. Trust me I’ll never be able to out parse you lol
It’s not my goal. I was shooting for 30-40 k max and I’m only at 25k I’m striving to focus on the solo arenas and many people like me aren’t hitting high dps or even affect your groups what so ever.

Make a parse on 21M trial dummy not 3/6M one. It gives more reliable starting point to know where are You at with Your DPS.

I unfortunately don’t have one and my guild as far as I know doesn’t have one either.

You can teleport to the house of someone who have one if it's an open house. Just type this command in chat /script JumpToHouse("@house owner ID") and You will be able to teleport to the house of someone who have 21M trial dummy. So now just ask around for someone on Your server who have free to visit house with a trial dummy. There is plenty of people like that.

I’ll ask I don’t know anyone who has one and i do not believe my guilds have them.

But I’m telling your right now I’m not going to be holding down one button slaying gods it will be a very low and sad number. You are reallY overestimating it.

It's not that like have any expectations towards Your DPS. I just said that trial dummy is a more reliable source of data. You can also ask around for people like that in zone chats.

Just did a target blood nignt and got 19k dps

Once again this is holding down just the one button no dots. People are gravely over estimating the dps

Edit : with pets out but not activating them so without pets even less damage

This is actually what You can do just by holding down one button. You can literally put something heavy on LMB leave the room and still get over 80k.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pOBjX6xPw20

Except I held down one button wether it’s me or a “book” holding it down its 19k not 80k. It feels like people are saying these things because they hate the play style and want to mock it.

isadoraisacat · April 2023

jaws343 wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

SerafinaWaterstar wrote: »

I do not understand the devs reasoning - so what if the HA builds were reaching or in rare cases surpassing LA builds?

Where does it state that LA builds are the ‘sanctioned’ build?

This is not, as many have said previously, “Play how you like” 🤣

(And way to go to discriminate against those that find LA weaving/bar swapping difficult due to disabilities)

It says on the steam page basically play how you want. So I’d gather there is no developer determined set way to play. So I’d hope they would reconsider these changes.

Play how you want only means that there is various levels of content for different people.

Do you want to fish, you can do that. Do you want to pick flowers, you can do that too. PVP, Trials, solo content, overland questing, you can do all of that as well. You can pick the things you want to do, and do those things.

Play how you want DOES NOT mean that you can do all of those things with anything. You need to be properly equipped/prepared for them. You may want to fish, but you must have the necessary bait to do so. You may want to pick flowers, but certain CP and skill points are going to be necessary to be most efficient at it.

You can PVP, but if you don't equip yourself properly, you are not going to be effective.

Play how you want does not mean that whatever way you want to approach the different parts of content available are going to work. You can farm gear all you want, but it won't win you a ToT match or build your ToT deck. Just like being ill-equipped for PVE content isn't going to get you through that content.

That is all, it is available for you to do. But you still have to prepare yourself properly for it.

I don’t see a “play how you want as long as it’s weaving” in this anywhere.

This is not what we are talking about.
It says mix different armors and skills
Together for your own play style what is storm master / sergeant and oaken soul? And the associated dots we use with the build it’s all armors and skills. Seems like we are following zos meaning perfectly here with a HA build.

Mix any armors and skills. But if we can't agree that someone running Armor Master and Adept rider, and using only tank and healing skills, is going to be flat out awful in a DPS role in PVE content, then I really don't even know how to continue this conversation.

You can play any content you want, you can wear any set or no set at all. But you still need to make sure what you are wearing is effective for the content you want to do. It's that simple.

None of this even matters, because Storm Masters and Sergeant's will still be perfectly viable for vet content, including trials, next patch. But, you can also wear another set instead of Storm Masters and be just as viable. Because the DPs loss isn't that bad. It's not bad at all.

I even did some math in the other thread, I'll even add some more here.

On LIVE right now, on a Storm Master and Sergeants Oaken sorc build.

With pets out, but Zero skills being activated. Just holding the heavy attack button. The build does 29K DPS on a 3 million dummy. The base one, with no pen or debuffs. 29K DPS.

Activating skills bumps that up to 33K DPS. So, Heavy attacks+Storm Master +Sergeants+Shock enchant = 29K DPS.

That combo is roughly 87% of the 33K DPs parse.

So, a baseline of 29K DPS on that 3M with doing nothing but holding heavy attack. That portion of the parse is the only part that is losing damage. So let's say the doomsaying 20% amount that keeps getting thrown around, that means that portion will do 23.2K DPS + now the skills portion of the parse, you get 28.2K DPS, an overall 15% nerf to a full parse.

That 15% is worst case scenario, and as others have already shown, not the actual case. But even so, using your 25K limit, that 15% nerf is 21K damage.

Honestly, if people are going to reject a player for 21K DPS on a 3M dummy, they were going to reject you for 25K. Especially when a 29K parse on a 3M is possible without activating any skills and just heavy attacking.

At the same time, plenty of groups literally don't care as long as you aren't dying or not following mechanics.

Clearly the set up was affective we wouldn’t be here if it wasn’t the case.
[snip]

I am literally showing you the numbers from the oakenbuild I use and have saved in my armorer. I cleared VMA on it this morning for my best score ever, and I run it in vet trials.

The nerf in PTS is nothing of any import on the build. It will be fine post nerf and still be stronger than the average solo DPS setup.

If we really want to make a comparison, my two bar solo build also does vet content, including vet trials and dungeons, and barely does 22K DPS on the 3M dummy. This heavy attack build does 10K more DPS, and even after the nerf will still do at least 5K more DPS. And no-one has turned down my solo build for vet content because I know how to do the role and I don't try to do trifecta prog groups. I play with like-minded players. And if your build is doing 20K+ DPS on a 3M dummy, it is effective enough for all content in the game.

And I’m literally sharing my experiences that I’ve been bullied for using this build. I’ve been kicked out a group dungeons at the last boss and mocked.

I don’t know which dummy is 3m I’m referring to the standard skeleton dummy not the parsing high end one with all the buffs I never did that dummy as I don’t have one.

You can’t compare your self to me we are different people different players with different abilities different disabilities and different levels of experience.

The skeleton is the 3M. 3M refers to the health the dummy has.

Honestly, personal experiences and anecdotes are irrelevant. You get bullied for using the build. Find better groups to run the build with. I don't get bullied for using the build, because I run with like minded people. It's is an easy fix to make. Don't play the game with people who don't want to play it with you the way you want to play it.

In the case of this nerf, the only thing that matters are objective numbers. And objectively, oakensoul heavy builds are going to be fine, at all levels of play. And objectively, I can hold 1 single button down for 2 minutes just as much as you can on a heavy attack build. And objectively on an oakensorc build, doing so gives you 29K DPS on the 3M dummy, without pressing a single skill. This does not require effort, this does not require timing. This require clicking and holding a trigger or mouse button, which is the minimum requirement for a heavy attack builds functionality.

I can’t always “find better groups” I work 7 days a week. I have a family to care for. When I come on if people in guilds aren’t on and I need transmuted to progress my character I have to deal with random people to do what I need to do. Not everyone is just online at the same time.

Everyone’s experience is relevant.
That’s just a snide thing to say.

I’m aware 3m refers to the health of the dummy im saying i use the normal skeleton one and never used the one to use referring too.

I mean if you want me to record my self playing holding down one button and not doing the damage you say ? I can gladly do it. I’m up for the challenge does anyone have a 3m dummy I can borrow ?
Becuase I bet you it will take me like 10
Minutes or more to kill it with much less dps. If I struggle on the basic skeleton.

The normal skeleton is the only 3M skeleton. Or at the very least, that is exactly what I am talking about.

On a trial dummy, just holding heavy attack down and not using skills nets around 70 DPS on the same build.

Your results are in sir you can see at the end of this thread in a 5 mill dummy you are not correct.

So, here is where you assess your build and see why you aren't hitting that obtainable number.

What blue CP slottables are you running?

I know you said your gear isn't fully upgraded, but that isn't going to do all that much. I am assuming you have the full sergeant and storm master setup. What is the other 1 piece set you are wearing, slimecraw is the best choice here. And your Mundus?

Of the two 5 piece sets, which are you running on your body and which on your jewelry. It makes a difference if the heavy set is on your body.

I’m using slimcraw as the monster helm.

Im using all the slottables recommended at lower amounts of points as I’m still low ep. All my gear is purple except for my staff which has a bad trait on it. 2 pieces have only divines on them. And I’m using the thief.

Once again the point is if they cut my build short farming for transmutes to make my build better will be much harder.

2 farming for xp
Will less easy due to not being able to take on world bosses anymore or things That gain more xp.

I’m well aware my build isn’t done… but the set up is by the book exactly what it needs to be for this build.

I just need more cp to add more points and to gold out my gear with better traits.

And yes 5 pieces of seargets and storm master plus slim craw with oakensoul.

And another point is why all this changes and push now if it will kick me back to this level say I gain 28k form these changes wil be knocked back down to 25 k anyway 🤷🏻‍♂️ so all this work to stay where in at and not progress.

I assure you, hitting 24K dps and losing 2-3K isn't going to impact your ability to do any of those things. As I already said, my normal build hits less than your incomplete build and it literally does all content and solos vet dungeons, trifecta Vateshran speed run craglorn vet trials, hardmodes, DLC vet dungeons and trials. All with less DPS. 20K DPS is more than enough for content in this game unless you are score pushing.

Than why was I called “pathetic” and vote kicked out of a group dungeon? The point is people do want to play with us. And especially now after the nerf.

Because awful people exist? It's an online game, that's pretty much inherent.

Find other people to play with. People get disparaged and talked down to in PUG groups all the time. I've seen players with twice as much DPS as you or I get belittled for "doing no damage". Just move on to the next team, or form your own group. There is zero chance you or any player is being belittled in every single dungeon they enter with every single group the join, unless they are drastically doing something wrong, like not following mechanics and dying constantly, or causing the group to wipe constantly, every time they join a group.

For an online game, players really cannot let a few encounters set the tone for content.

You should see comments people say on YouTube and all over the internet. About this play style. The point is people found a play style that works for that that already people shunned and now it’s nerfed and people will be even less likely don’t want to play with them or take them serious.

I’ve already stated I have formed a group people’s times don’t always work. If I need to progress and work on my build I need transmutes that’s where these pug dungeons come into play.

It’s a waste of time when you get kicked at the last boss. I think they need to find other ways to give these to us or allowed us to buy or trade them or give us more per nornal dungeons. I have a group I can play with but it is very Seldom. Not everyone all over the country can meet at the same time every day.

AScarlato · April 2023

Galeriano wrote: »

AScarlato wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

SerafinaWaterstar wrote: »

I do not understand the devs reasoning - so what if the HA builds were reaching or in rare cases surpassing LA builds?

Where does it state that LA builds are the ‘sanctioned’ build?

This is not, as many have said previously, “Play how you like” 🤣

(And way to go to discriminate against those that find LA weaving/bar swapping difficult due to disabilities)

It says on the steam page basically play how you want. So I’d gather there is no developer determined set way to play. So I’d hope they would reconsider these changes.

Play how you want only means that there is various levels of content for different people.

Do you want to fish, you can do that. Do you want to pick flowers, you can do that too. PVP, Trials, solo content, overland questing, you can do all of that as well. You can pick the things you want to do, and do those things.

Play how you want DOES NOT mean that you can do all of those things with anything. You need to be properly equipped/prepared for them. You may want to fish, but you must have the necessary bait to do so. You may want to pick flowers, but certain CP and skill points are going to be necessary to be most efficient at it.

You can PVP, but if you don't equip yourself properly, you are not going to be effective.

Play how you want does not mean that whatever way you want to approach the different parts of content available are going to work. You can farm gear all you want, but it won't win you a ToT match or build your ToT deck. Just like being ill-equipped for PVE content isn't going to get you through that content.

That is all, it is available for you to do. But you still have to prepare yourself properly for it.

I don’t see a “play how you want as long as it’s weaving” in this anywhere.

This is not what we are talking about.
It says mix different armors and skills
Together for your own play style what is storm master / sergeant and oaken soul? And the associated dots we use with the build it’s all armors and skills. Seems like we are following zos meaning perfectly here with a HA build.

Mix any armors and skills. But if we can't agree that someone running Armor Master and Adept rider, and using only tank and healing skills, is going to be flat out awful in a DPS role in PVE content, then I really don't even know how to continue this conversation.

You can play any content you want, you can wear any set or no set at all. But you still need to make sure what you are wearing is effective for the content you want to do. It's that simple.

None of this even matters, because Storm Masters and Sergeant's will still be perfectly viable for vet content, including trials, next patch. But, you can also wear another set instead of Storm Masters and be just as viable. Because the DPs loss isn't that bad. It's not bad at all.

I even did some math in the other thread, I'll even add some more here.

On LIVE right now, on a Storm Master and Sergeants Oaken sorc build.

With pets out, but Zero skills being activated. Just holding the heavy attack button. The build does 29K DPS on a 3 million dummy. The base one, with no pen or debuffs. 29K DPS.

Activating skills bumps that up to 33K DPS. So, Heavy attacks+Storm Master +Sergeants+Shock enchant = 29K DPS.

That combo is roughly 87% of the 33K DPs parse.

So, a baseline of 29K DPS on that 3M with doing nothing but holding heavy attack. That portion of the parse is the only part that is losing damage. So let's say the doomsaying 20% amount that keeps getting thrown around, that means that portion will do 23.2K DPS + now the skills portion of the parse, you get 28.2K DPS, an overall 15% nerf to a full parse.

That 15% is worst case scenario, and as others have already shown, not the actual case. But even so, using your 25K limit, that 15% nerf is 21K damage.

Honestly, if people are going to reject a player for 21K DPS on a 3M dummy, they were going to reject you for 25K. Especially when a 29K parse on a 3M is possible without activating any skills and just heavy attacking.

At the same time, plenty of groups literally don't care as long as you aren't dying or not following mechanics.

Clearly the set up was affective we wouldn’t be here if it wasn’t the case.
[snip]

I am literally showing you the numbers from the oakenbuild I use and have saved in my armorer. I cleared VMA on it this morning for my best score ever, and I run it in vet trials.

The nerf in PTS is nothing of any import on the build. It will be fine post nerf and still be stronger than the average solo DPS setup.

If we really want to make a comparison, my two bar solo build also does vet content, including vet trials and dungeons, and barely does 22K DPS on the 3M dummy. This heavy attack build does 10K more DPS, and even after the nerf will still do at least 5K more DPS. And no-one has turned down my solo build for vet content because I know how to do the role and I don't try to do trifecta prog groups. I play with like-minded players. And if your build is doing 20K+ DPS on a 3M dummy, it is effective enough for all content in the game.

And I’m literally sharing my experiences that I’ve been bullied for using this build. I’ve been kicked out a group dungeons at the last boss and mocked.

I don’t know which dummy is 3m I’m referring to the standard skeleton dummy not the parsing high end one with all the buffs I never did that dummy as I don’t have one.

You can’t compare your self to me we are different people different players with different abilities different disabilities and different levels of experience.

The skeleton is the 3M. 3M refers to the health the dummy has.

Honestly, personal experiences and anecdotes are irrelevant. You get bullied for using the build. Find better groups to run the build with. I don't get bullied for using the build, because I run with like minded people. It's is an easy fix to make. Don't play the game with people who don't want to play it with you the way you want to play it.

In the case of this nerf, the only thing that matters are objective numbers. And objectively, oakensoul heavy builds are going to be fine, at all levels of play. And objectively, I can hold 1 single button down for 2 minutes just as much as you can on a heavy attack build. And objectively on an oakensorc build, doing so gives you 29K DPS on the 3M dummy, without pressing a single skill. This does not require effort, this does not require timing. This require clicking and holding a trigger or mouse button, which is the minimum requirement for a heavy attack builds functionality.

I can’t always “find better groups” I work 7 days a week. I have a family to care for. When I come on if people in guilds aren’t on and I need transmuted to progress my character I have to deal with random people to do what I need to do. Not everyone is just online at the same time.

Everyone’s experience is relevant.
That’s just a snide thing to say.

I’m aware 3m refers to the health of the dummy im saying i use the normal skeleton one and never used the one to use referring too.

I mean if you want me to record my self playing holding down one button and not doing the damage you say ? I can gladly do it. I’m up for the challenge does anyone have a 3m dummy I can borrow ?
Becuase I bet you it will take me like 10
Minutes or more to kill it with much less dps. If I struggle on the basic skeleton.

The normal skeleton is the only 3M skeleton. Or at the very least, that is exactly what I am talking about.

On a trial dummy, just holding heavy attack down and not using skills nets around 70 DPS on the same build.

Your results are in sir you can see at the end of this thread in a 5 mill dummy you are not correct.

So, here is where you assess your build and see why you aren't hitting that obtainable number.

What blue CP slottables are you running?

I know you said your gear isn't fully upgraded, but that isn't going to do all that much. I am assuming you have the full sergeant and storm master setup. What is the other 1 piece set you are wearing, slimecraw is the best choice here. And your Mundus?

Of the two 5 piece sets, which are you running on your body and which on your jewelry. It makes a difference if the heavy set is on your body.

I’m using slimcraw as the monster helm.

Im using all the slottables recommended at lower amounts of points as I’m still low ep. All my gear is purple except for my staff which has a bad trait on it. 2 pieces have only divines on them. And I’m using the thief.

Once again the point is if they cut my build short farming for transmutes to make my build better will be much harder.

2 farming for xp
Will less easy due to not being able to take on world bosses anymore or things That gain more xp.

I’m well aware my build isn’t done… but the set up is by the book exactly what it needs to be for this build.

I just need more cp to add more points and to gold out my gear with better traits.

And yes 5 pieces of seargets and storm master plus slim craw with oakensoul.

And another point is why all this changes and push now if it will kick me back to this level say I gain 28k form these changes wil be knocked back down to 25 k anyway 🤷🏻‍♂️ so all this work to stay where in at and not progress.

I assure you, hitting 24K dps and losing 2-3K isn't going to impact your ability to do any of those things. As I already said, my normal build hits less than your incomplete build and it literally does all content and solos vet dungeons, trifecta Vateshran speed run craglorn vet trials, hardmodes, DLC vet dungeons and trials. All with less DPS. 20K DPS is more than enough for content in this game unless you are score pushing.

Latest if you claim 20k is enough why are people so worried about HA attack doing more damage it should matter than.

I mean, look at my post history of the last few months of literally defending heavy attack oaken builds as fine.

The only time I had a problem with oakensoul was when it was released and it was broken in PVP and players could chain drop storm atros. Since they fixed that, zero complaints and in fact defense of them.

But let's be clear, on live right now, they truly are outperforming. I just scored the best score for Vet Maelstrom I have ever scored on my sorc using this build, with a tenth of the effort it takes my solo build to do the same content. It is, objectively, pretty absurd.

But, I also think it has enough drawbacks that it makes it ok. Simultaneously, I can see that it needed a reasonable adjustment. And frankly, this seems reasonable. A small nerf to empower and a set adjustment. Set adjustments happen all the time. And, let's be real here, when a set is performing so well that it is practically a requirement on a build, it is ALWAYS bound to get nerfed. There are other sets though, that will work just as well, that didn't get nerfed. Probably just about the same DPS that you are getting now with those sets and those sets don't rely on a critting fully charged heavy attack to work.

I understand what you are saying but you have to understand I have physical limitations and zero experience with mmo style of play. So comparing you to me is like comparing a black belt to a white belt.

I’m still working on my build this set back just makes doing that harder is my initial point. That’s all.

I think being nerfed just never feels good. Especially for everyone who isn’t the very small minority of top tier players these decisions seem to be based around. It’s like being 50 in a marathon of 100 people and being knocked down and being told it’s okay, just sprint to to get back to 50th. Easy to say from the vantage point of those who aren’t nerfed or who actively desired these nerfs based on numbers being thrown out that were accomplished by a tiny minutiae of the player base.

I will concede that the YouTube video posted is kinda dumb lol (meaning I’m surprised at this much dps for just holding down a button). Has there been any nerfs since 4 months ago or is that where we are now? Again I’m not playing sorc and only got this last week.

Top tier players are not even running with this setup so it's hardly a decision based around them. It's mid and low tier players that still want to play something else that got affected the most by oakensoul HA setups.

No nerfs since then. You can still get over 80k on live server by pressing 1 button.

Ty for the info. I don’t really think just holding your finger down for that much and doing nothing else is great game design so something to consider.

@isodoraisacat It’s awful but I hope you report anyone who lets you play until the last boss and then vote kicks you. This happened to me last week when I pugged into a 3 man premade. One of them went afk none of them said anything so I pulled and killed a boss with the tank. The healer then spent the rest of the dungeon emoting and calling me names - odd how her keyboard worked then but not to say they were afk and not to pull a boss. Then I got booted at the final boss. I reported but was told I’ll never know if any action was taken or not due to policy, but I like to think they got at least a warning.

The next pug I had got the last two pieces of the storm master set that wasn’t dropping for me and they both let me have them. Made my day to meet kind people right after that toxic premade. So they are out there.

isadoraisacat · April 2023

AScarlato wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

AScarlato wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

SerafinaWaterstar wrote: »

I do not understand the devs reasoning - so what if the HA builds were reaching or in rare cases surpassing LA builds?

Where does it state that LA builds are the ‘sanctioned’ build?

This is not, as many have said previously, “Play how you like” 🤣

(And way to go to discriminate against those that find LA weaving/bar swapping difficult due to disabilities)

It says on the steam page basically play how you want. So I’d gather there is no developer determined set way to play. So I’d hope they would reconsider these changes.

Play how you want only means that there is various levels of content for different people.

Do you want to fish, you can do that. Do you want to pick flowers, you can do that too. PVP, Trials, solo content, overland questing, you can do all of that as well. You can pick the things you want to do, and do those things.

Play how you want DOES NOT mean that you can do all of those things with anything. You need to be properly equipped/prepared for them. You may want to fish, but you must have the necessary bait to do so. You may want to pick flowers, but certain CP and skill points are going to be necessary to be most efficient at it.

You can PVP, but if you don't equip yourself properly, you are not going to be effective.

Play how you want does not mean that whatever way you want to approach the different parts of content available are going to work. You can farm gear all you want, but it won't win you a ToT match or build your ToT deck. Just like being ill-equipped for PVE content isn't going to get you through that content.

That is all, it is available for you to do. But you still have to prepare yourself properly for it.

I don’t see a “play how you want as long as it’s weaving” in this anywhere.

This is not what we are talking about.
It says mix different armors and skills
Together for your own play style what is storm master / sergeant and oaken soul? And the associated dots we use with the build it’s all armors and skills. Seems like we are following zos meaning perfectly here with a HA build.

Mix any armors and skills. But if we can't agree that someone running Armor Master and Adept rider, and using only tank and healing skills, is going to be flat out awful in a DPS role in PVE content, then I really don't even know how to continue this conversation.

You can play any content you want, you can wear any set or no set at all. But you still need to make sure what you are wearing is effective for the content you want to do. It's that simple.

None of this even matters, because Storm Masters and Sergeant's will still be perfectly viable for vet content, including trials, next patch. But, you can also wear another set instead of Storm Masters and be just as viable. Because the DPs loss isn't that bad. It's not bad at all.

I even did some math in the other thread, I'll even add some more here.

On LIVE right now, on a Storm Master and Sergeants Oaken sorc build.

With pets out, but Zero skills being activated. Just holding the heavy attack button. The build does 29K DPS on a 3 million dummy. The base one, with no pen or debuffs. 29K DPS.

Activating skills bumps that up to 33K DPS. So, Heavy attacks+Storm Master +Sergeants+Shock enchant = 29K DPS.

That combo is roughly 87% of the 33K DPs parse.

So, a baseline of 29K DPS on that 3M with doing nothing but holding heavy attack. That portion of the parse is the only part that is losing damage. So let's say the doomsaying 20% amount that keeps getting thrown around, that means that portion will do 23.2K DPS + now the skills portion of the parse, you get 28.2K DPS, an overall 15% nerf to a full parse.

That 15% is worst case scenario, and as others have already shown, not the actual case. But even so, using your 25K limit, that 15% nerf is 21K damage.

Honestly, if people are going to reject a player for 21K DPS on a 3M dummy, they were going to reject you for 25K. Especially when a 29K parse on a 3M is possible without activating any skills and just heavy attacking.

At the same time, plenty of groups literally don't care as long as you aren't dying or not following mechanics.

Clearly the set up was affective we wouldn’t be here if it wasn’t the case.
[snip]

I am literally showing you the numbers from the oakenbuild I use and have saved in my armorer. I cleared VMA on it this morning for my best score ever, and I run it in vet trials.

The nerf in PTS is nothing of any import on the build. It will be fine post nerf and still be stronger than the average solo DPS setup.

If we really want to make a comparison, my two bar solo build also does vet content, including vet trials and dungeons, and barely does 22K DPS on the 3M dummy. This heavy attack build does 10K more DPS, and even after the nerf will still do at least 5K more DPS. And no-one has turned down my solo build for vet content because I know how to do the role and I don't try to do trifecta prog groups. I play with like-minded players. And if your build is doing 20K+ DPS on a 3M dummy, it is effective enough for all content in the game.

And I’m literally sharing my experiences that I’ve been bullied for using this build. I’ve been kicked out a group dungeons at the last boss and mocked.

I don’t know which dummy is 3m I’m referring to the standard skeleton dummy not the parsing high end one with all the buffs I never did that dummy as I don’t have one.

You can’t compare your self to me we are different people different players with different abilities different disabilities and different levels of experience.

The skeleton is the 3M. 3M refers to the health the dummy has.

Honestly, personal experiences and anecdotes are irrelevant. You get bullied for using the build. Find better groups to run the build with. I don't get bullied for using the build, because I run with like minded people. It's is an easy fix to make. Don't play the game with people who don't want to play it with you the way you want to play it.

In the case of this nerf, the only thing that matters are objective numbers. And objectively, oakensoul heavy builds are going to be fine, at all levels of play. And objectively, I can hold 1 single button down for 2 minutes just as much as you can on a heavy attack build. And objectively on an oakensorc build, doing so gives you 29K DPS on the 3M dummy, without pressing a single skill. This does not require effort, this does not require timing. This require clicking and holding a trigger or mouse button, which is the minimum requirement for a heavy attack builds functionality.

I can’t always “find better groups” I work 7 days a week. I have a family to care for. When I come on if people in guilds aren’t on and I need transmuted to progress my character I have to deal with random people to do what I need to do. Not everyone is just online at the same time.

Everyone’s experience is relevant.
That’s just a snide thing to say.

I’m aware 3m refers to the health of the dummy im saying i use the normal skeleton one and never used the one to use referring too.

I mean if you want me to record my self playing holding down one button and not doing the damage you say ? I can gladly do it. I’m up for the challenge does anyone have a 3m dummy I can borrow ?
Becuase I bet you it will take me like 10
Minutes or more to kill it with much less dps. If I struggle on the basic skeleton.

The normal skeleton is the only 3M skeleton. Or at the very least, that is exactly what I am talking about.

On a trial dummy, just holding heavy attack down and not using skills nets around 70 DPS on the same build.

Your results are in sir you can see at the end of this thread in a 5 mill dummy you are not correct.

So, here is where you assess your build and see why you aren't hitting that obtainable number.

What blue CP slottables are you running?

I know you said your gear isn't fully upgraded, but that isn't going to do all that much. I am assuming you have the full sergeant and storm master setup. What is the other 1 piece set you are wearing, slimecraw is the best choice here. And your Mundus?

Of the two 5 piece sets, which are you running on your body and which on your jewelry. It makes a difference if the heavy set is on your body.

I’m using slimcraw as the monster helm.

Im using all the slottables recommended at lower amounts of points as I’m still low ep. All my gear is purple except for my staff which has a bad trait on it. 2 pieces have only divines on them. And I’m using the thief.

Once again the point is if they cut my build short farming for transmutes to make my build better will be much harder.

2 farming for xp
Will less easy due to not being able to take on world bosses anymore or things That gain more xp.

I’m well aware my build isn’t done… but the set up is by the book exactly what it needs to be for this build.

I just need more cp to add more points and to gold out my gear with better traits.

And yes 5 pieces of seargets and storm master plus slim craw with oakensoul.

And another point is why all this changes and push now if it will kick me back to this level say I gain 28k form these changes wil be knocked back down to 25 k anyway 🤷🏻‍♂️ so all this work to stay where in at and not progress.

I assure you, hitting 24K dps and losing 2-3K isn't going to impact your ability to do any of those things. As I already said, my normal build hits less than your incomplete build and it literally does all content and solos vet dungeons, trifecta Vateshran speed run craglorn vet trials, hardmodes, DLC vet dungeons and trials. All with less DPS. 20K DPS is more than enough for content in this game unless you are score pushing.

Latest if you claim 20k is enough why are people so worried about HA attack doing more damage it should matter than.

I mean, look at my post history of the last few months of literally defending heavy attack oaken builds as fine.

The only time I had a problem with oakensoul was when it was released and it was broken in PVP and players could chain drop storm atros. Since they fixed that, zero complaints and in fact defense of them.

But let's be clear, on live right now, they truly are outperforming. I just scored the best score for Vet Maelstrom I have ever scored on my sorc using this build, with a tenth of the effort it takes my solo build to do the same content. It is, objectively, pretty absurd.

But, I also think it has enough drawbacks that it makes it ok. Simultaneously, I can see that it needed a reasonable adjustment. And frankly, this seems reasonable. A small nerf to empower and a set adjustment. Set adjustments happen all the time. And, let's be real here, when a set is performing so well that it is practically a requirement on a build, it is ALWAYS bound to get nerfed. There are other sets though, that will work just as well, that didn't get nerfed. Probably just about the same DPS that you are getting now with those sets and those sets don't rely on a critting fully charged heavy attack to work.

I understand what you are saying but you have to understand I have physical limitations and zero experience with mmo style of play. So comparing you to me is like comparing a black belt to a white belt.

I’m still working on my build this set back just makes doing that harder is my initial point. That’s all.

I think being nerfed just never feels good. Especially for everyone who isn’t the very small minority of top tier players these decisions seem to be based around. It’s like being 50 in a marathon of 100 people and being knocked down and being told it’s okay, just sprint to to get back to 50th. Easy to say from the vantage point of those who aren’t nerfed or who actively desired these nerfs based on numbers being thrown out that were accomplished by a tiny minutiae of the player base.

I will concede that the YouTube video posted is kinda dumb lol (meaning I’m surprised at this much dps for just holding down a button). Has there been any nerfs since 4 months ago or is that where we are now? Again I’m not playing sorc and only got this last week.

Top tier players are not even running with this setup so it's hardly a decision based around them. It's mid and low tier players that still want to play something else that got affected the most by oakensoul HA setups.

No nerfs since then. You can still get over 80k on live server by pressing 1 button.

Ty for the info. I don’t really think just holding your finger down for that much and doing nothing else is great game design so something to consider.

@isodora. It’s awful but I hope you report anyone who lets you play until the last boss and then vote kicks you. This happened to me last week when I pigged into a 3 man premade. One of them went afk none of them said anything so I pulled and killed a boss with the tank. The healer then spent the rest of the dungeon emoting and calling me names - odd how her keyboard worked then but not to say they were afk and not to pull a boss. Then I got booted at the final boss. I reported but was to,d I’ll never know if any action was taken or not due to policy, but I like to think they got at least a warning.

Unfortunately I didn’t get their names I was too upset to think straight.

As for just Holding the button. I still have a rotation I keep my dots going my pets activated and “weave” then between each heavy attack. It’s not just doing nothing. I’m very skilled with tactical stuff my issue is my actual hands are not optimal due to injury and and carpal tunnel. If I didn’t have these issues I wouldn’t mind a one bar rotation with more dots to manage. My only real issue with eso combat is the bar swap it’s the one thing I never liked doing. But I CAN weave I just can’t do it for long without pain.

AScarlato · April 2023

isadoraisacat wrote: »

AScarlato wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

AScarlato wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

SerafinaWaterstar wrote: »

I do not understand the devs reasoning - so what if the HA builds were reaching or in rare cases surpassing LA builds?

Where does it state that LA builds are the ‘sanctioned’ build?

This is not, as many have said previously, “Play how you like” 🤣

(And way to go to discriminate against those that find LA weaving/bar swapping difficult due to disabilities)

It says on the steam page basically play how you want. So I’d gather there is no developer determined set way to play. So I’d hope they would reconsider these changes.

Play how you want only means that there is various levels of content for different people.

Do you want to fish, you can do that. Do you want to pick flowers, you can do that too. PVP, Trials, solo content, overland questing, you can do all of that as well. You can pick the things you want to do, and do those things.

Play how you want DOES NOT mean that you can do all of those things with anything. You need to be properly equipped/prepared for them. You may want to fish, but you must have the necessary bait to do so. You may want to pick flowers, but certain CP and skill points are going to be necessary to be most efficient at it.

You can PVP, but if you don't equip yourself properly, you are not going to be effective.

Play how you want does not mean that whatever way you want to approach the different parts of content available are going to work. You can farm gear all you want, but it won't win you a ToT match or build your ToT deck. Just like being ill-equipped for PVE content isn't going to get you through that content.

That is all, it is available for you to do. But you still have to prepare yourself properly for it.

I don’t see a “play how you want as long as it’s weaving” in this anywhere.

This is not what we are talking about.
It says mix different armors and skills
Together for your own play style what is storm master / sergeant and oaken soul? And the associated dots we use with the build it’s all armors and skills. Seems like we are following zos meaning perfectly here with a HA build.

Mix any armors and skills. But if we can't agree that someone running Armor Master and Adept rider, and using only tank and healing skills, is going to be flat out awful in a DPS role in PVE content, then I really don't even know how to continue this conversation.

You can play any content you want, you can wear any set or no set at all. But you still need to make sure what you are wearing is effective for the content you want to do. It's that simple.

None of this even matters, because Storm Masters and Sergeant's will still be perfectly viable for vet content, including trials, next patch. But, you can also wear another set instead of Storm Masters and be just as viable. Because the DPs loss isn't that bad. It's not bad at all.

I even did some math in the other thread, I'll even add some more here.

On LIVE right now, on a Storm Master and Sergeants Oaken sorc build.

With pets out, but Zero skills being activated. Just holding the heavy attack button. The build does 29K DPS on a 3 million dummy. The base one, with no pen or debuffs. 29K DPS.

Activating skills bumps that up to 33K DPS. So, Heavy attacks+Storm Master +Sergeants+Shock enchant = 29K DPS.

That combo is roughly 87% of the 33K DPs parse.

So, a baseline of 29K DPS on that 3M with doing nothing but holding heavy attack. That portion of the parse is the only part that is losing damage. So let's say the doomsaying 20% amount that keeps getting thrown around, that means that portion will do 23.2K DPS + now the skills portion of the parse, you get 28.2K DPS, an overall 15% nerf to a full parse.

That 15% is worst case scenario, and as others have already shown, not the actual case. But even so, using your 25K limit, that 15% nerf is 21K damage.

Honestly, if people are going to reject a player for 21K DPS on a 3M dummy, they were going to reject you for 25K. Especially when a 29K parse on a 3M is possible without activating any skills and just heavy attacking.

At the same time, plenty of groups literally don't care as long as you aren't dying or not following mechanics.

Clearly the set up was affective we wouldn’t be here if it wasn’t the case.
[snip]

I am literally showing you the numbers from the oakenbuild I use and have saved in my armorer. I cleared VMA on it this morning for my best score ever, and I run it in vet trials.

The nerf in PTS is nothing of any import on the build. It will be fine post nerf and still be stronger than the average solo DPS setup.

If we really want to make a comparison, my two bar solo build also does vet content, including vet trials and dungeons, and barely does 22K DPS on the 3M dummy. This heavy attack build does 10K more DPS, and even after the nerf will still do at least 5K more DPS. And no-one has turned down my solo build for vet content because I know how to do the role and I don't try to do trifecta prog groups. I play with like-minded players. And if your build is doing 20K+ DPS on a 3M dummy, it is effective enough for all content in the game.

And I’m literally sharing my experiences that I’ve been bullied for using this build. I’ve been kicked out a group dungeons at the last boss and mocked.

I don’t know which dummy is 3m I’m referring to the standard skeleton dummy not the parsing high end one with all the buffs I never did that dummy as I don’t have one.

You can’t compare your self to me we are different people different players with different abilities different disabilities and different levels of experience.

The skeleton is the 3M. 3M refers to the health the dummy has.

Honestly, personal experiences and anecdotes are irrelevant. You get bullied for using the build. Find better groups to run the build with. I don't get bullied for using the build, because I run with like minded people. It's is an easy fix to make. Don't play the game with people who don't want to play it with you the way you want to play it.

In the case of this nerf, the only thing that matters are objective numbers. And objectively, oakensoul heavy builds are going to be fine, at all levels of play. And objectively, I can hold 1 single button down for 2 minutes just as much as you can on a heavy attack build. And objectively on an oakensorc build, doing so gives you 29K DPS on the 3M dummy, without pressing a single skill. This does not require effort, this does not require timing. This require clicking and holding a trigger or mouse button, which is the minimum requirement for a heavy attack builds functionality.

I can’t always “find better groups” I work 7 days a week. I have a family to care for. When I come on if people in guilds aren’t on and I need transmuted to progress my character I have to deal with random people to do what I need to do. Not everyone is just online at the same time.

Everyone’s experience is relevant.
That’s just a snide thing to say.

I’m aware 3m refers to the health of the dummy im saying i use the normal skeleton one and never used the one to use referring too.

I mean if you want me to record my self playing holding down one button and not doing the damage you say ? I can gladly do it. I’m up for the challenge does anyone have a 3m dummy I can borrow ?
Becuase I bet you it will take me like 10
Minutes or more to kill it with much less dps. If I struggle on the basic skeleton.

The normal skeleton is the only 3M skeleton. Or at the very least, that is exactly what I am talking about.

On a trial dummy, just holding heavy attack down and not using skills nets around 70 DPS on the same build.

Your results are in sir you can see at the end of this thread in a 5 mill dummy you are not correct.

So, here is where you assess your build and see why you aren't hitting that obtainable number.

What blue CP slottables are you running?

I know you said your gear isn't fully upgraded, but that isn't going to do all that much. I am assuming you have the full sergeant and storm master setup. What is the other 1 piece set you are wearing, slimecraw is the best choice here. And your Mundus?

Of the two 5 piece sets, which are you running on your body and which on your jewelry. It makes a difference if the heavy set is on your body.

I’m using slimcraw as the monster helm.

Im using all the slottables recommended at lower amounts of points as I’m still low ep. All my gear is purple except for my staff which has a bad trait on it. 2 pieces have only divines on them. And I’m using the thief.

Once again the point is if they cut my build short farming for transmutes to make my build better will be much harder.

2 farming for xp
Will less easy due to not being able to take on world bosses anymore or things That gain more xp.

I’m well aware my build isn’t done… but the set up is by the book exactly what it needs to be for this build.

I just need more cp to add more points and to gold out my gear with better traits.

And yes 5 pieces of seargets and storm master plus slim craw with oakensoul.

And another point is why all this changes and push now if it will kick me back to this level say I gain 28k form these changes wil be knocked back down to 25 k anyway 🤷🏻‍♂️ so all this work to stay where in at and not progress.

I assure you, hitting 24K dps and losing 2-3K isn't going to impact your ability to do any of those things. As I already said, my normal build hits less than your incomplete build and it literally does all content and solos vet dungeons, trifecta Vateshran speed run craglorn vet trials, hardmodes, DLC vet dungeons and trials. All with less DPS. 20K DPS is more than enough for content in this game unless you are score pushing.

Latest if you claim 20k is enough why are people so worried about HA attack doing more damage it should matter than.

I mean, look at my post history of the last few months of literally defending heavy attack oaken builds as fine.

The only time I had a problem with oakensoul was when it was released and it was broken in PVP and players could chain drop storm atros. Since they fixed that, zero complaints and in fact defense of them.

But let's be clear, on live right now, they truly are outperforming. I just scored the best score for Vet Maelstrom I have ever scored on my sorc using this build, with a tenth of the effort it takes my solo build to do the same content. It is, objectively, pretty absurd.

But, I also think it has enough drawbacks that it makes it ok. Simultaneously, I can see that it needed a reasonable adjustment. And frankly, this seems reasonable. A small nerf to empower and a set adjustment. Set adjustments happen all the time. And, let's be real here, when a set is performing so well that it is practically a requirement on a build, it is ALWAYS bound to get nerfed. There are other sets though, that will work just as well, that didn't get nerfed. Probably just about the same DPS that you are getting now with those sets and those sets don't rely on a critting fully charged heavy attack to work.

I understand what you are saying but you have to understand I have physical limitations and zero experience with mmo style of play. So comparing you to me is like comparing a black belt to a white belt.

I’m still working on my build this set back just makes doing that harder is my initial point. That’s all.

I think being nerfed just never feels good. Especially for everyone who isn’t the very small minority of top tier players these decisions seem to be based around. It’s like being 50 in a marathon of 100 people and being knocked down and being told it’s okay, just sprint to to get back to 50th. Easy to say from the vantage point of those who aren’t nerfed or who actively desired these nerfs based on numbers being thrown out that were accomplished by a tiny minutiae of the player base.

I will concede that the YouTube video posted is kinda dumb lol (meaning I’m surprised at this much dps for just holding down a button). Has there been any nerfs since 4 months ago or is that where we are now? Again I’m not playing sorc and only got this last week.

Top tier players are not even running with this setup so it's hardly a decision based around them. It's mid and low tier players that still want to play something else that got affected the most by oakensoul HA setups.

No nerfs since then. You can still get over 80k on live server by pressing 1 button.

Ty for the info. I don’t really think just holding your finger down for that much and doing nothing else is great game design so something to consider.

@isodora. It’s awful but I hope you report anyone who lets you play until the last boss and then vote kicks you. This happened to me last week when I pigged into a 3 man premade. One of them went afk none of them said anything so I pulled and killed a boss with the tank. The healer then spent the rest of the dungeon emoting and calling me names - odd how her keyboard worked then but not to say they were afk and not to pull a boss. Then I got booted at the final boss. I reported but was to,d I’ll never know if any action was taken or not due to policy, but I like to think they got at least a warning.

Unfortunately I didn’t get their names I was too upset to think straight.

As for just Holding the button. I still have a rotation I keep my dots going my pets activated and “weave” then between each heavy attack. It’s not just doing nothing. I’m very skilled with tactical stuff my issue is my actual hands are not optimal due to injury and and carpal tunnel. If I didn’t have these issues I wouldn’t mind a one bar rotation with more dots to manage. My only real issue with eso combat is the bar swap it’s the one thing I never liked doing. But I CAN weave I just can’t do it for long without pain.

I’m sorry to hear about your hand pain and I completely understand. This is supposed to be a fun game and enjoyable relief at the end of the day. I also weave in my dots when I play this and am also not getting those numbers. Lol. Maybe I just just hold a button instead haha. You mentioned still having some work to do with traits and maybe with those and some more cp this will still be fun enough if the nerf moves ahead. If it does we will have to accept and hopefully still have fun if the change isn’t too dire.