Thoughts of a Random Guy on Necrom Changes to HA / Heavy-Attack builds & on Arcanist

Trejgon

loveeso wrote: »

[snip]
I did decide to make it more viable and less ridiculous than the HA sorcerer build from that video and I chose a pet which gives you a magicka-based self-heal instead of getting the one that is usually used in meta builds optimising for high DPS.
[snip]
CMX Screenshots

You claim to have used Twilight Matriarch, but your CMX parse shows Twilight Tormentor....

Galeriano

Armanie wrote: »

loveeso wrote: »

Debunking the Anti-HA Propagandist Video: Examining the Truth Behind Light & Heavy Attack Builds


The Video

The following video has been shared in this and various other threads related to Heavy Attack (HA) builds:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pOBjX6xPw20
The video depicts a sorcerer attacking a trial dummy with just lightning heavy attacks. It is important to note that this build lacks self-heals and shields, making it unsuitable for serious content so the video appears to have been created specifically to make a point or trigger HA haters when they see that the sorcerer achieves an "impressive" 83144 DPS pre-nerf .

Those who have shared the video claim that it unequivocally demonstrates the need to nerf HA builds. They argue that compared to the "complex" and "difficult to use" Light Attack (LA) meta builds, which "require significantly more skill", HA builds enable players to achieve DPS they don't deserve.


Meet My Brand New One-Skill LA God

Since we prefer to deal with facts here (instead of getting too emotional and sharing unfounded "opinions" and woulda/coulda/shoulda), I decided to put that anti-HA hypothesis to the test and see what DPS a complete LA meta noob would be able to achieve with just one skill. To make it fair, I also chose a sorcerer and decided to simulate a player whose LA weaving is atrocious and who cannot even sustain properly so they will sometimes run out of stamina and fail to activate their only skill without even noticing.

The build could probably do more DPS if I optimised it more, but I didn't have time so I just slapped on Relequen, Pillar, 1pc Slimecraw, and - just to be fair and make it as "tanky" as the HA sorcerer from the video - the Oakensoul ring. I also used a bow instead of daggers, again to be fair and avoid being accused of lying or cheating by the usual suspects here . They might argue that the Heavy Attack sorcerer was ranged and the Light Attack sorcerer was melee, implying that the latter requires much more skill to play . So our LA sorcerer is ranged too.

I did decide to make it more viable and less ridiculous than the HA sorcerer build from that video and I chose a pet which gives you a magicka-based self-heal instead of getting the one that is usually used in meta builds optimising for high DPS. So yeah, it's viable in real content, you can take this build for a spin into the vDSR HM if you want.

After doing the above, I killed a trial dummy. I made just this one attempt so maybe we could get a better result if we do what the guy in the HA video did and just repeat the parse many times till we get a higher score thanks to crits which are, as we all know, random.


The Very Complex LA Rotation

There is no rotation - just mindlessly press LA + spammable in a loop and don't even worry if you have enough stamina to cast your spammable! You don't even need to know where your stamina bar is (or that you have stamina)


The Results

Here are the results achieved by our simulated LA-weaving noob using the one-skill LA build:

• Missed: 17 LAs, 10 spammable
• Weaving Average: 0.105s
• Such terrible weaving, just one skill, no resources, and yet, the DPS you get is 86833 with LA! That's way more than the guy who made that video was able to achieve on his HA sorcerer!

If you want to take a closer look at this simple LA build and the results, see the image below.


Conclusions

The currently highest DPS on Iron Atronach using the meta LA build is 136874 - i.e. 64% higher than the HA sorcerer build from that video.

The DPS of our simulated noob using just one skill on our LA build with meta LA gear is 86833 (at first try!).

The HA sorcerer from the video did 83144 on his n-th attempt (you can see in the video that his earlier attempt resulted in 78828 DPS).

Also, as you can see from our weaving results above (or take a look at the CMX output below), you really don't need to be good at LA weaving to achieve good results because the LA meta is already so much stronger & the LA meta sets are extremely easy to proc (they require even less skill than HA's Sergeant or Storm ).

Another advantage of using any Light Attack build over any Heavy Attack build in real content is that LA's light attacks make it easier for players to avoid damage. With the LA build, players can move faster and block or dodge without losing their fully-charged heavy attacks (which are the hardest-hitting attacks on an HA build, so you really really really do not want to lose them).


Will We Now Hear Calls to Nerf LA Meta?

Now, let's wait and see if those who have argued so hard that Heavy Attack builds enable players to achieve "easy and undeserved" DPS and should be nerfed, will act with integrity and demand that HA builds are actually left alone while Light Attack (LA) builds are nerfed instead. After all, LA builds do more DPS and are much easier to play with as has been demonstrated above.


Hope for Fair Change

Given that Heavy Attack builds are already so much weaker than Light Attack builds, weaker even than one-skill LA builds operated by total LA noobs who cannot weave (as our test above clearly and unequivocally proved), let's hope that ZeniMax Online Studios stops trying to appease those who dislike HA builds and does not further nerf them. Instead, ZOS should consider reversing the proposed changes to HA builds.


CMX Screenshots

Comparing an AoE, easy to sustain, 1 click parse to a single target, harder to sustain, 450 clicks parse and claiming both are the same because they reach similar single target DPS. What can go wrong right?

Armanie

they're both very simple
being mad will get you nowhere bro

Galeriano

Armanie wrote: »

they're both very simple
being mad will get you nowhere bro

Why than You don't see people using non heavy attack oakensoul setups similar to that second one in real content?

Even simple things can differ is level of simplicity and effectiveness when You transfer them into real fights. Are they both an AoE setup? Do they both have unlimited sustain no matter what? Are they both effective in mobile fights or in fights where there are breaks from dealing dmg or You need to switch targets often?

There was a time before oakensoul when warden could perform almost 100k with just LA+spammable due to how strong bleed on cliff racer was. Basically the same "rotation" as in that 86k parse presented above. One ability plus light attack. Almost 100k in times when max parses were 10k lower than today. Why weren't wardens so popular back then as one bar HA setups especially on sorcs are right now?

I am far from being mad. Why would I? After all I am also using oakensoul HA setup on some of.my characters. Thing is I am just realistic, somethig that many people here refuses to do.

Armanie

come on you've been at it for pages and pages, idk maybe take a break and realize there's nothing wrong with different playstyles being viable, especially when one playstyle still outperforms the other in most cases

no need to feel threatened by HA, as long as you have fun playing LA or HA, 1 bar or 2 bars and achieving those titles then it's all that matters

isadoraisacat

loveeso wrote: »

Debunking the Anti-HA Propagandist Video: Examining the Truth Behind Light & Heavy Attack Builds


The Video

The following video has been shared in this and various other threads related to Heavy Attack (HA) builds:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pOBjX6xPw20
The video depicts a sorcerer attacking a trial dummy with just lightning heavy attacks. It is important to note that this build lacks self-heals and shields, making it unsuitable for serious content so the video appears to have been created specifically to make a point or trigger HA haters when they see that the sorcerer achieves an "impressive" 83144 DPS pre-nerf .

Those who have shared the video claim that it unequivocally demonstrates the need to nerf HA builds. They argue that compared to the "complex" and "difficult to use" Light Attack (LA) meta builds, which "require significantly more skill", HA builds enable players to achieve DPS they don't deserve.


Meet My Brand New One-Skill LA God

Since we prefer to deal with facts here (instead of getting too emotional and sharing unfounded "opinions" and woulda/coulda/shoulda), I decided to put that anti-HA hypothesis to the test and see what DPS a complete LA meta noob would be able to achieve with just one skill. To make it fair, I also chose a sorcerer and decided to simulate a player whose LA weaving is atrocious and who cannot even sustain properly so they will sometimes run out of stamina and fail to activate their only skill without even noticing.

The build could probably do more DPS if I optimised it more, but I didn't have time so I just slapped on Relequen, Pillar, 1pc Slimecraw, and - just to be fair and make it as "tanky" as the HA sorcerer from the video - the Oakensoul ring. I also used a bow instead of daggers, again to be fair and avoid being accused of lying or cheating by the usual suspects here . They might argue that the Heavy Attack sorcerer was ranged and the Light Attack sorcerer was melee, implying that the latter requires much more skill to play . So our LA sorcerer is ranged too.

I did decide to make it more viable and less ridiculous than the HA sorcerer build from that video and I chose a pet which gives you a magicka-based self-heal instead of getting the one that is usually used in meta builds optimising for high DPS. So yeah, it's viable in real content, you can take this build for a spin into the vDSR HM if you want.

After doing the above, I killed a trial dummy. I made just this one attempt so maybe we could get a better result if we do what the guy in the HA video did and just repeat the parse many times till we get a higher score thanks to crits which are, as we all know, random.


The Very Complex LA Rotation

There is no rotation - just mindlessly press LA + spammable in a loop and don't even worry if you have enough stamina to cast your spammable! You don't even need to know where your stamina bar is (or that you have stamina)


The Results

Here are the results achieved by our simulated LA-weaving noob using the one-skill LA build:

• Missed: 17 LAs, 10 spammable
• Weaving Average: 0.105s
• Such terrible weaving, just one skill, no resources, and yet, the DPS you get is 86833 with LA! That's way more than the guy who made that video was able to achieve on his HA sorcerer!

If you want to take a closer look at this simple LA build and the results, see the image below.


Conclusions

The currently highest DPS on Iron Atronach using the meta LA build is 136874 - i.e. 64% higher than the HA sorcerer build from that video.

The DPS of our simulated noob using just one skill on our LA build with meta LA gear is 86833 (at first try!).

The HA sorcerer from the video did 83144 on his n-th attempt (you can see in the video that his earlier attempt resulted in 78828 DPS).

Also, as you can see from our weaving results above (or take a look at the CMX output below), you really don't need to be good at LA weaving to achieve good results because the LA meta is already so much stronger & the LA meta sets are extremely easy to proc (they require even less skill than HA's Sergeant or Storm ).

Another advantage of using any Light Attack build over any Heavy Attack build in real content is that LA's light attacks make it easier for players to avoid damage. With the LA build, players can move faster and block or dodge without losing their fully-charged heavy attacks (which are the hardest-hitting attacks on an HA build, so you really really really do not want to lose them).


Will We Now Hear Calls to Nerf LA Meta?

Now, let's wait and see if those who have argued so hard that Heavy Attack builds enable players to achieve "easy and undeserved" DPS and should be nerfed, will act with integrity and demand that HA builds are actually left alone while Light Attack (LA) builds are nerfed instead. After all, LA builds do more DPS and are much easier to play with as has been demonstrated above.


Hope for Fair Change

Given that Heavy Attack builds are already so much weaker than Light Attack builds, weaker even than one-skill LA builds operated by total LA noobs who cannot weave (as our test above clearly and unequivocally proved), let's hope that ZeniMax Online Studios stops trying to appease those who dislike HA builds and does not further nerf them. Instead, ZOS should consider reversing the proposed changes to HA builds.


CMX Screenshots

Thank you for this and for going up to bat for HA builds

spartaxoxo

Galeriano wrote: »

It really isn't brilliant and it contains lots of false informations and twisting of reality based on not understanding the game. Heavy attack setups are not being nerfed based on some false informations. You think combat devs watched some random YT video or read few forum comments and blindly decided to nerf something without looking into their data?

Yes. They have explicitly stated that parse information people post is some of the most helpful information for them as helpful feedback and informs their decisions.

Most of this playerbase would be replaced in groups by companions that sit in red and people struggle to keep alive if the companions were doing 20k+ damage. This was stated as one reason as to why they were careful at capping the damage below that. We can safely conclude that means the majority of the playerbase isn't hitting that number.

The idea that high end content should be balanced around players who largely are not even trying to be good is not something that would ever be said in any other scenario. And they aren't trying that hard. They don't care about meta. They don't care about practice. They don't care about being top damage. They just wear what they feel like and enjoy. Others try and are just bad at it. Low skill is also not something you balance a high end build around.

The comparisons are being presented only as a way to get something falsely nerfed that is factually of lower performance when an honest comparison is made comparing apples to apples. If trials were nerfed to be more accommodating to people hitting 60k or whatever, the complaints would be endless.

The hubbub over this isn't because HA builds are overperforming it's because they lay bare the myth that players that were doing that level of damage couldn't handle the trials mechanics anyway. That the gatekeeping of such players was just so they could realistically get a clear. Now those players are getting clears because their damage is up and the truth comes out.

These players don't "deserve" to get clears to these trials even if they can handle the mechs of those trials. And those players that said they are good at handling mechs and were sometimes even better than the people who were better than them at dummy parsing? They were telling the truth actually.

This outrage is about gatekeeping, not performance. The top HA build is significantly outclassed by the top LA builds. This video is a prime example but we only need to look at the top HA parses (which like the top LA parses aren't the norm) and see that there's like a 20k difference between them. Apples to Apples. High end to high end.

Galeriano

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

It really isn't brilliant and it contains lots of false informations and twisting of reality based on not understanding the game. Heavy attack setups are not being nerfed based on some false informations. You think combat devs watched some random YT video or read few forum comments and blindly decided to nerf something without looking into their data?

Yes. They have explicitly stated that parse information people post is some of the most helpful information for them as helpful feedback and informs their decisions.

Most of this playerbase would be replaced in groups by companions that sit in red and people struggle to keep alive if the companions were doing 20k+ damage. This was stated as one reason as to why they were careful at capping the damage below that. We can safely conclude that means the majority of the playerbase isn't hitting that number.

The idea that high end content should be balanced around players who largely are not even trying to be good is not something that would ever be said in any other scenario. And they aren't trying that hard. They don't care about meta. They don't care about practice. They don't care about being top damage. They just wear what they feel like and enjoy. Others try and are just bad at it. Low skill is also not something you balance a high end build around.

The comparisons are being presented only as a way to get something falsely nerfed that is factually of lower performance when an honest comparison is made comparing apples to apples. If trials were nerfed to be more accommodating to people hitting 60k or whatever, the complaints would be endless.

The hubbub over this isn't because HA builds are overperforming it's because they lay bare the myth that players that were doing that level of damage couldn't handle the trials mechanics anyway. That the gatekeeping of such players was just so they could realistically get a clear. Now those players are getting clears because their damage is up and the truth comes out.

These players don't "deserve" to get clears to these trials even if they can handle the mechs of those trials. And those players that said they are good at handling mechs and were sometimes even better than the people who were better than them at dummy parsing? They were telling the truth actually.

This outrage is about gatekeeping, not performance. The top HA build is significantly outclassed by the top LA builds. This video is a prime example but we only need to look at the top HA parses (which like the top LA parses aren't the norm) and see that there's like a 20k difference between them. Apples to Apples. High end to high end.

You are twisting what they've said. They said that it is usefull information but not that it's some of the most helpfull and they definietly didn't state this is what they base their decisions on. And if I remember corrently they were talking about it in a context of seeing how classes perform in comparison to eachother not in a context of balancing whole game and real content around it.

And how do You get a value of DPS that companions should't go above? By watching top parses? No, You get it by monitoring what average and less experienced players can do which is excatly the same what they did to evaluate strenght of one bar HA setups. So now You are using developers decision based on data they collected as Your argument to discredit another decision based on data they collected. Keep in mind that this statement about companions DPS was made before oakensoul arrival so it means that average player without one bar oakensoul setup was doing so little damage. This just shows even better how massive boost oakensoul Ha setups gave to players when You can basically quadruple that numbers just with one button.

It's not high end content that is being balanced here. it's mostly mid game content where one bar HA dominated playing field atm. High end content examples like vAS HM show just how powerfull HA setups are and it's not that hard to draw a conclussion that if one bar HA setup can even compete with best setups used by decent players than in mid game it leaves everything else far behind. Too far.

This comparisons are just shown to explain why nerf happened they didn't cause the nerf. Post You were praising so much was not comparing apples to apples. It was comparing a setup with one buttong click, AoE dmg and unlimited sustain to a 450 button clicks composed of two different actions, single target, mediocre sustain setup. If creator wanted to compare apples to apples he should alteast just spam either light atttack or lethal arrow not both and if we want to take his parse under consideration than we also need a parse of HA plus one ability and that will be sitting close to 90k while still having advantages of less actions per minute, being AoE and sustaining easier.

As fort Your last points instead of writing more text I will just send You to this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=db4yldu-D4k I especially reccomend You to watch last few minutes.

isadoraisacat

I’m just gonna leave this video as a response to the one above:

https://youtu.be/PCEsTshKMSM

FrancisCrawford

loveeso wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

First of all I would reccomend You to get down of Your high horse, You are not debunking or examining anything You are just presenting Your own subjective opinion which contains same fallacy.
[...snip...]
You don't seem like a person who preffers to deal with facts. You present very subjective view on subject missing many important informations in Your comments.
[...snip...]

For those who haven't had a chance to read my previous posts, I would like to highlight that all the data presented indicates that Heavy Attack (HA) builds are considerably weaker than Light Attack (LA) builds, making a nerf unnecessary. In fact, even the simplest LA builds are already more powerful than HA builds. To demonstrate this, I presented an LA build (in my previous post) that is effortless to use and deals over 86k damage, using only one skill. Even if you're new to light-attack-weaving, this build will outperform the HA sorcerer build discussed here. Moreover, the LA build utilizes the Oakensoul ring to enhance its resilience and includes a self-healing ability, making it suitable for use in actual combat situations without the need for modifications. It even generates higher DPS on the trial dummy than the HA sorcerer build, which was exclusively optimized for this particular scenario. In contrast to most HA builds, the LA build is incredibly user-friendly, as it doesn't require any rotation and allows for quick movement, blocking, and dodging without sacrificing damage output.

As for the trial dummy DPS results, the HA sorcerer did 83k, this LA build did 86k+ using just one skill, the best LA build did 136k (i.e. over 60% more than the HA sorcerer).These numbers are incontrovertible facts and cannot be disputed, regardless of any biased opinions that individuals who are against HA builds may try to present.


P.S. Dear Galeriano, I was willing to give you another chance, but unfortunately, after reading the first few lines of your writing, it became apparent that it lacked any significant substance. Instead, it was filled with patronizing language, ad hominem and straw man attacks, misinterpretations, half-truths, and falsehoods, making it unsuitable for a productive discussion. Here is a suggestion for you: if you want to strengthen your argument, try presenting something tangible that you have accomplished yourself, rather than merely sharing your unfounded opinions with those who are providing actual data. Up to this point, you have failed to present any concrete evidence to substantiate your claims.
I am going to search for a block/ignore button now. I hope this forum provides such a feature. (It does. Fantastic!)

The one substantive point that looked real to me was that HAs provide AoE damage, which your build didn't.

Galeriano wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

loveeso wrote: »

Debunking the Anti-HA Propagandist Video: Examining the Truth Behind Light & Heavy Attack Builds


The Video

The following video has been shared in this and various other threads related to Heavy Attack (HA) builds:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pOBjX6xPw20
The video depicts a sorcerer attacking a trial dummy with just lightning heavy attacks. It is important to note that this build lacks self-heals and shields, making it unsuitable for serious content so the video appears to have been created specifically to make a point or trigger HA haters when they see that the sorcerer achieves an "impressive" 83144 DPS pre-nerf .

Those who have shared the video claim that it unequivocally demonstrates the need to nerf HA builds. They argue that compared to the "complex" and "difficult to use" Light Attack (LA) meta builds, which "require significantly more skill", HA builds enable players to achieve DPS they don't deserve.


Meet My Brand New One-Skill LA God

Since we prefer to deal with facts here (instead of getting too emotional and sharing unfounded "opinions" and woulda/coulda/shoulda), I decided to put that anti-HA hypothesis to the test and see what DPS a complete LA meta noob would be able to achieve with just one skill. To make it fair, I also chose a sorcerer and decided to simulate a player whose LA weaving is atrocious and who cannot even sustain properly so they will sometimes run out of stamina and fail to activate their only skill without even noticing.

The build could probably do more DPS if I optimised it more, but I didn't have time so I just slapped on Relequen, Pillar, 1pc Slimecraw, and - just to be fair and make it as "tanky" as the HA sorcerer from the video - the Oakensoul ring. I also used a bow instead of daggers, again to be fair and avoid being accused of lying or cheating by the usual suspects here . They might argue that the Heavy Attack sorcerer was ranged and the Light Attack sorcerer was melee, implying that the latter requires much more skill to play . So our LA sorcerer is ranged too.

I did decide to make it more viable and less ridiculous than the HA sorcerer build from that video and I chose a pet which gives you a magicka-based self-heal instead of getting the one that is usually used in meta builds optimising for high DPS. So yeah, it's viable in real content, you can take this build for a spin into the vDSR HM if you want.

After doing the above, I killed a trial dummy. I made just this one attempt so maybe we could get a better result if we do what the guy in the HA video did and just repeat the parse many times till we get a higher score thanks to crits which are, as we all know, random.


The Very Complex LA Rotation

There is no rotation - just mindlessly press LA + spammable in a loop and don't even worry if you have enough stamina to cast your spammable! You don't even need to know where your stamina bar is (or that you have stamina)


The Results

Here are the results achieved by our simulated LA-weaving noob using the one-skill LA build:

• Missed: 17 LAs, 10 spammable
• Weaving Average: 0.105s
• Such terrible weaving, just one skill, no resources, and yet, the DPS you get is 86833 with LA! That's way more than the guy who made that video was able to achieve on his HA sorcerer!

If you want to take a closer look at this simple LA build and the results, see the image below.


Conclusions

The currently highest DPS on Iron Atronach using the meta LA build is 136874 - i.e. 64% higher than the HA sorcerer build from that video.

The DPS of our simulated noob using just one skill on our LA build with meta LA gear is 86833 (at first try!).

The HA sorcerer from the video did 83144 on his n-th attempt (you can see in the video that his earlier attempt resulted in 78828 DPS).

Also, as you can see from our weaving results above (or take a look at the CMX output below), you really don't need to be good at LA weaving to achieve good results because the LA meta is already so much stronger & the LA meta sets are extremely easy to proc (they require even less skill than HA's Sergeant or Storm ).

Another advantage of using any Light Attack build over any Heavy Attack build in real content is that LA's light attacks make it easier for players to avoid damage. With the LA build, players can move faster and block or dodge without losing their fully-charged heavy attacks (which are the hardest-hitting attacks on an HA build, so you really really really do not want to lose them).


Will We Now Hear Calls to Nerf LA Meta?

Now, let's wait and see if those who have argued so hard that Heavy Attack builds enable players to achieve "easy and undeserved" DPS and should be nerfed, will act with integrity and demand that HA builds are actually left alone while Light Attack (LA) builds are nerfed instead. After all, LA builds do more DPS and are much easier to play with as has been demonstrated above.


Hope for Fair Change

Given that Heavy Attack builds are already so much weaker than Light Attack builds, weaker even than one-skill LA builds operated by total LA noobs who cannot weave (as our test above clearly and unequivocally proved), let's hope that ZeniMax Online Studios stops trying to appease those who dislike HA builds and does not further nerf them. Instead, ZOS should consider reversing the proposed changes to HA builds.


CMX Screenshots

@loveeso

This is brilliant and should be it's own thread in the PTS forum. It's really a shame that the HA build is being nerfed on false information.

HA builds do NOT perform better than or equal to LA builds. They are worse than them. Period.

This is why balance should be from the top tbh. And actual performance in the game. The best HA builds consistently perform worse than the best LA builds.

It really isn't brilliant and it contains lots of false informations and twisting of reality based on not understanding the game. Heavy attack setups are not being nerfed based on some false informations. You think combat devs watched some random YT video or read few forum comments and blindly decided to nerf something without looking into their data?

One bar HA setups on average perform better than LA and in special occasions outperform them even in higher ends of gameplay. Just join any mid level group where there are average one and two bar players and You will see how much more DPS one bar HA players will be producing.

It's funny that now people are saying that balance should be from the top but before oakensoul HA era excatly opposite was claimed. It's almost like many people making these claims about balance don't care about balance in the first place and they just care about having easy acces to every content in the game.

And even in some top contents HA setups started to perform better than LA setups. Look here for example https://www.esologs.com/zone/rankings/7#metric=dps Over 90 out of top 100 parses are performed by one bar HA setups there.

Am I correct in guessing that those runs were almost purely AoE, probably with 3 or more targets?

Galeriano

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

loveeso wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

First of all I would reccomend You to get down of Your high horse, You are not debunking or examining anything You are just presenting Your own subjective opinion which contains same fallacy.
[...snip...]
You don't seem like a person who preffers to deal with facts. You present very subjective view on subject missing many important informations in Your comments.
[...snip...]

For those who haven't had a chance to read my previous posts, I would like to highlight that all the data presented indicates that Heavy Attack (HA) builds are considerably weaker than Light Attack (LA) builds, making a nerf unnecessary. In fact, even the simplest LA builds are already more powerful than HA builds. To demonstrate this, I presented an LA build (in my previous post) that is effortless to use and deals over 86k damage, using only one skill. Even if you're new to light-attack-weaving, this build will outperform the HA sorcerer build discussed here. Moreover, the LA build utilizes the Oakensoul ring to enhance its resilience and includes a self-healing ability, making it suitable for use in actual combat situations without the need for modifications. It even generates higher DPS on the trial dummy than the HA sorcerer build, which was exclusively optimized for this particular scenario. In contrast to most HA builds, the LA build is incredibly user-friendly, as it doesn't require any rotation and allows for quick movement, blocking, and dodging without sacrificing damage output.

As for the trial dummy DPS results, the HA sorcerer did 83k, this LA build did 86k+ using just one skill, the best LA build did 136k (i.e. over 60% more than the HA sorcerer).These numbers are incontrovertible facts and cannot be disputed, regardless of any biased opinions that individuals who are against HA builds may try to present.


P.S. Dear Galeriano, I was willing to give you another chance, but unfortunately, after reading the first few lines of your writing, it became apparent that it lacked any significant substance. Instead, it was filled with patronizing language, ad hominem and straw man attacks, misinterpretations, half-truths, and falsehoods, making it unsuitable for a productive discussion. Here is a suggestion for you: if you want to strengthen your argument, try presenting something tangible that you have accomplished yourself, rather than merely sharing your unfounded opinions with those who are providing actual data. Up to this point, you have failed to present any concrete evidence to substantiate your claims.
I am going to search for a block/ignore button now. I hope this forum provides such a feature. (It does. Fantastic!)

The one substantive point that looked real to me was that HAs provide AoE damage, which your build didn't.

Galeriano wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

loveeso wrote: »

Debunking the Anti-HA Propagandist Video: Examining the Truth Behind Light & Heavy Attack Builds


The Video

The following video has been shared in this and various other threads related to Heavy Attack (HA) builds:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pOBjX6xPw20
The video depicts a sorcerer attacking a trial dummy with just lightning heavy attacks. It is important to note that this build lacks self-heals and shields, making it unsuitable for serious content so the video appears to have been created specifically to make a point or trigger HA haters when they see that the sorcerer achieves an "impressive" 83144 DPS pre-nerf .

Those who have shared the video claim that it unequivocally demonstrates the need to nerf HA builds. They argue that compared to the "complex" and "difficult to use" Light Attack (LA) meta builds, which "require significantly more skill", HA builds enable players to achieve DPS they don't deserve.


Meet My Brand New One-Skill LA God

Since we prefer to deal with facts here (instead of getting too emotional and sharing unfounded "opinions" and woulda/coulda/shoulda), I decided to put that anti-HA hypothesis to the test and see what DPS a complete LA meta noob would be able to achieve with just one skill. To make it fair, I also chose a sorcerer and decided to simulate a player whose LA weaving is atrocious and who cannot even sustain properly so they will sometimes run out of stamina and fail to activate their only skill without even noticing.

The build could probably do more DPS if I optimised it more, but I didn't have time so I just slapped on Relequen, Pillar, 1pc Slimecraw, and - just to be fair and make it as "tanky" as the HA sorcerer from the video - the Oakensoul ring. I also used a bow instead of daggers, again to be fair and avoid being accused of lying or cheating by the usual suspects here . They might argue that the Heavy Attack sorcerer was ranged and the Light Attack sorcerer was melee, implying that the latter requires much more skill to play . So our LA sorcerer is ranged too.

I did decide to make it more viable and less ridiculous than the HA sorcerer build from that video and I chose a pet which gives you a magicka-based self-heal instead of getting the one that is usually used in meta builds optimising for high DPS. So yeah, it's viable in real content, you can take this build for a spin into the vDSR HM if you want.

After doing the above, I killed a trial dummy. I made just this one attempt so maybe we could get a better result if we do what the guy in the HA video did and just repeat the parse many times till we get a higher score thanks to crits which are, as we all know, random.


The Very Complex LA Rotation

There is no rotation - just mindlessly press LA + spammable in a loop and don't even worry if you have enough stamina to cast your spammable! You don't even need to know where your stamina bar is (or that you have stamina)


The Results

Here are the results achieved by our simulated LA-weaving noob using the one-skill LA build:

• Missed: 17 LAs, 10 spammable
• Weaving Average: 0.105s
• Such terrible weaving, just one skill, no resources, and yet, the DPS you get is 86833 with LA! That's way more than the guy who made that video was able to achieve on his HA sorcerer!

If you want to take a closer look at this simple LA build and the results, see the image below.


Conclusions

The currently highest DPS on Iron Atronach using the meta LA build is 136874 - i.e. 64% higher than the HA sorcerer build from that video.

The DPS of our simulated noob using just one skill on our LA build with meta LA gear is 86833 (at first try!).

The HA sorcerer from the video did 83144 on his n-th attempt (you can see in the video that his earlier attempt resulted in 78828 DPS).

Also, as you can see from our weaving results above (or take a look at the CMX output below), you really don't need to be good at LA weaving to achieve good results because the LA meta is already so much stronger & the LA meta sets are extremely easy to proc (they require even less skill than HA's Sergeant or Storm ).

Another advantage of using any Light Attack build over any Heavy Attack build in real content is that LA's light attacks make it easier for players to avoid damage. With the LA build, players can move faster and block or dodge without losing their fully-charged heavy attacks (which are the hardest-hitting attacks on an HA build, so you really really really do not want to lose them).


Will We Now Hear Calls to Nerf LA Meta?

Now, let's wait and see if those who have argued so hard that Heavy Attack builds enable players to achieve "easy and undeserved" DPS and should be nerfed, will act with integrity and demand that HA builds are actually left alone while Light Attack (LA) builds are nerfed instead. After all, LA builds do more DPS and are much easier to play with as has been demonstrated above.


Hope for Fair Change

Given that Heavy Attack builds are already so much weaker than Light Attack builds, weaker even than one-skill LA builds operated by total LA noobs who cannot weave (as our test above clearly and unequivocally proved), let's hope that ZeniMax Online Studios stops trying to appease those who dislike HA builds and does not further nerf them. Instead, ZOS should consider reversing the proposed changes to HA builds.


CMX Screenshots

@loveeso

This is brilliant and should be it's own thread in the PTS forum. It's really a shame that the HA build is being nerfed on false information.

HA builds do NOT perform better than or equal to LA builds. They are worse than them. Period.

This is why balance should be from the top tbh. And actual performance in the game. The best HA builds consistently perform worse than the best LA builds.

It really isn't brilliant and it contains lots of false informations and twisting of reality based on not understanding the game. Heavy attack setups are not being nerfed based on some false informations. You think combat devs watched some random YT video or read few forum comments and blindly decided to nerf something without looking into their data?

One bar HA setups on average perform better than LA and in special occasions outperform them even in higher ends of gameplay. Just join any mid level group where there are average one and two bar players and You will see how much more DPS one bar HA players will be producing.

It's funny that now people are saying that balance should be from the top but before oakensoul HA era excatly opposite was claimed. It's almost like many people making these claims about balance don't care about balance in the first place and they just care about having easy acces to every content in the game.

And even in some top contents HA setups started to perform better than LA setups. Look here for example https://www.esologs.com/zone/rankings/7#metric=dps Over 90 out of top 100 parses are performed by one bar HA setups there.

Am I correct in guessing that those runs were almost purely AoE, probably with 3 or more targets?

On average something like 1/3 of each of these parses DPS comes from AoE dmg so I wouldn't say they were almost purely AoE but AoE was definietly helping since people could focus the main boss and spheres and mini bosses were just dying passively making whole fight way easier.

isadoraisacat

Galeriano wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

I’m just gonna leave this video as a response to the one above:

https://youtu.be/PCEsTshKMSM

[snip]

[snip]

[snip]

[snip]

[snip]

You have been provided enough information to show heavy attack builds are not “over performing” save for a very minor small select few the average player is doing less dps and not even using the build to compete in “end game” content and has no bearing on those players to begin with.

Second of all this is the second time this play style has been nerfed for similar reasons and I will bet you my life it won’t be the last. There has been pages and pages of people like you complaining calling for nerfs.. and you won’t stop after this.

[snip] At this point we have all showed proof that this is not a positive direction. All you are doing at this point is arguing and being aggressive to people who share different view points.

once again the nerf it’s self isn’t the problem (it’s not helpful for us ) but it’s the long term effects this will have on a play style many of us prefer.

[snip]

[Edited for minor Baiting & to remove quote]

Galeriano

isadoraisacat wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

I’m just gonna leave this video as a response to the one above:

https://youtu.be/PCEsTshKMSM

[snip]

[snip]

[snip]

[snip]

[snip]

You have been provided enough information to show heavy attack builds are not “over performing” save for a very minor small select few the average player is doing less dps and not even using the build to compete in “end game” content and has no bearing on those players to begin with.

Second of all this is the second time this play style has been nerfed for similar reasons and I will bet you my life it won’t be the last. There has been pages and pages of people like you complaining calling for nerfs.. and you won’t stop after this.

[snip] At this point we have all showed proof that this is not a positive direction. All you are doing at this point is arguing and being aggressive to people who share different view points.

once again the nerf it’s self isn’t the problem (it’s not helpful for us ) but it’s the long term effects this will have on a play style many of us prefer.

[snip]

I've been provided lots of subjective opinions not supported by factual data that's for sure. If one bar HA setups wouldn't be overpeorfming than so many people wouldnt run excatly the same one setup and there woulnd't be logs like the ones I linked where 92 ouf of top 100 parses in vAS are performed by one bar HA setups.

it's actually the first time when this playstyle is being nerfed. First time when oakensoul was changed to provide minor buffs instead of major ones there was also empower added to it and empower itself was changed from 40% to 80%. Major force was changed to minor force which is actually a better buff when we consider group content because major force is given by group when You usually need to provide minor force from Your own abilities. There was also minor slayer added which allowed HA setups to not care about sets that provide that buff and compensated loss of some other major buffs. Fact that You gained empower and minor force created lots of free bar space. The best one bar HA parses started to occur after that supposed "nerf". Overal that nerf You are talking about was an actuall buff to one bar HA playstyle. Even devs themsleves commented the change by saying "It may end up even stronger on some builds now, depending on your focus". And reasons why oakensoul was changed first time are not the same as right now. First time when it was changed is was done mainly because of the issues that mythic was causing in PvP not PvE. I am not complaining or calling for nerfs I am just explaining why the nerf is happening and that it's not a big nerf. That's a big difference but You are so fixated on Your point of view that You can't even accept that.

No proff was given. Just subjective arguments which were mostly already disproven. You have shown nothing. You just gave Your subjective opinion not supported by any reliable data whatsoever.

Long term effects will be the same as they always have been. People will adapt and move on. We've been there for over 9 years already, better get used to it. Long term effects will be also that other setups will have a chance to be effective in low and mid game instead of whole game being taken over by one HA setup.

[edited to remove quote]

isadoraisacat

Galeriano wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

I’m just gonna leave this video as a response to the one above:

https://youtu.be/PCEsTshKMSM

[snip]

[snip]

[snip]

[snip]

[snip]

You have been provided enough information to show heavy attack builds are not “over performing” save for a very minor small select few the average player is doing less dps and not even using the build to compete in “end game” content and has no bearing on those players to begin with.

Second of all this is the second time this play style has been nerfed for similar reasons and I will bet you my life it won’t be the last. There has been pages and pages of people like you complaining calling for nerfs.. and you won’t stop after this.

[snip] At this point we have all showed proof that this is not a positive direction. All you are doing at this point is arguing and being aggressive to people who share different view points.

once again the nerf it’s self isn’t the problem (it’s not helpful for us ) but it’s the long term effects this will have on a play style many of us prefer.

[snip]

I've been provided lots of subjective opinions not supported by factual data that's for sure. If one bar HA setups wouldn't be overpeorfming than so many people wouldnt run excatly the same one setup and there woulnd't be logs like the ones I linked where 92 ouf of top 100 parses in vAS are performed by one bar HA setups.

it's actually the first time when this playstyle is being nerfed. First time when oakensoul was changed to provide minor buffs instead of major ones there was also empower added to it and empower itself was changed from 40% to 80%. Major force was changed to minor force which is actually a better buff when we consider group content because major force is given by group when You usually need to provide minor force from Your own abilities. There was also minor slayer added which allowed HA setups to not care about sets that provide that buff and compensated loss of some other major buffs. Fact that You gained empower and minor force created lots of free bar space. The best one bar HA parses started to occur after that supposed "nerf". Overal that nerf You are talking about was an actuall buff to one bar HA playstyle. Even devs themsleves commented the change by saying "It may end up even stronger on some builds now, depending on your focus". And reasons why oakensoul was changed first time are not the same as right now. First time when it was changed is was done mainly because of the issues that mythic was causing in PvP not PvE. I am not complaining or calling for nerfs I am just explaining why the nerf is happening and that it's not a big nerf. That's a big difference but You are so fixated on Your point of view that You can't even accept that.

No proff was given. Just subjective arguments which were mostly already disproven. You have shown nothing. You just gave Your subjective opinion not supported by any reliable data whatsoever.

Long term effects will be the same as they always have been. People will adapt and move on. We've been there for over 9 years already, better get used to it. Long term effects will be also that other setups will have a chance to be effective in low and mid game instead of whole game being taken over by one HA setup.

You could adapt too, but instead you call for nerfs.

[edited to remove quote]

spartaxoxo

Galeriano wrote: »

You are twisting what they've said. They said that it is usefull information but not that it's some of the most helpfull and they definietly didn't state this is what they base their decisions on. And if I remember corrently they were talking about it in a context of seeing how classes perform in comparison to eachother not in a context of balancing whole game and real content around it.

No I'm not they literally stated data (like parses) is always more helpful. They have also expressed numerous times that player feedback is a major thing they base decisions on. It isn't the only thing. They also use their own data and their own ideas, but they absolutely use player feedback to inform decisions. That's the reason this forum still exists when other ones from this company were closed.

A friendly reminder that providing data always helps us far more than anecdotal feedback, though both are still welcome. Finally, thank you all for your patience and time in helping up improve upon these areas. May your roads lead to warm sands.

They literally stated that providing more data is always more helpful than other types of feedback.

Edit:

This was literally stated in a post where they were going over some major things they were changing based on feedback.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en-gb/discussion/612574/update-35-pts-combat-feedback-upcoming-changes

There are three main issues we would like to address with some targeted adjustments in next week’s PTS patch. These mainly pertain to Damage and Healing over Time effects, as we’ve found those have been the focus of the majority of conversations between all types of players

spartaxoxo

Galeriano wrote: »

And how do You get a value of DPS that companions should't go above? By watching top parses? No, You get it by monitoring what average and less experienced players can do which is excatly the same what they did to evaluate strenght of one bar HA setups.

Which is the problem. Those builds were meant to increase access to veteran content. It is meant to be an alternative high end build. Therefore the parses it should be compared to are high end parses. Compared to those parses, it was objectively significantly worse. Companions were meant to help with things like world bosses and normal dungeons, so that is what their damage is compared to. You compare like to like. Vet content is supposed to be balanced top-down, which means top parses are what heavy attack builds are supposed to be balanced around. And they objectively are overall worse than those builds.

What they are responding to is obviously the feedback and backlash. It can't be data because the data does not support a nerf.

Galeriano

isadoraisacat wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

I’m just gonna leave this video as a response to the one above:

https://youtu.be/PCEsTshKMSM

[snip]

[snip]

[snip]

[snip]

[snip]

You have been provided enough information to show heavy attack builds are not “over performing” save for a very minor small select few the average player is doing less dps and not even using the build to compete in “end game” content and has no bearing on those players to begin with.

Second of all this is the second time this play style has been nerfed for similar reasons and I will bet you my life it won’t be the last. There has been pages and pages of people like you complaining calling for nerfs.. and you won’t stop after this.

[snip] At this point we have all showed proof that this is not a positive direction. All you are doing at this point is arguing and being aggressive to people who share different view points.

once again the nerf it’s self isn’t the problem (it’s not helpful for us ) but it’s the long term effects this will have on a play style many of us prefer.

[snip]

I've been provided lots of subjective opinions not supported by factual data that's for sure. If one bar HA setups wouldn't be overpeorfming than so many people wouldnt run excatly the same one setup and there woulnd't be logs like the ones I linked where 92 ouf of top 100 parses in vAS are performed by one bar HA setups.

it's actually the first time when this playstyle is being nerfed. First time when oakensoul was changed to provide minor buffs instead of major ones there was also empower added to it and empower itself was changed from 40% to 80%. Major force was changed to minor force which is actually a better buff when we consider group content because major force is given by group when You usually need to provide minor force from Your own abilities. There was also minor slayer added which allowed HA setups to not care about sets that provide that buff and compensated loss of some other major buffs. Fact that You gained empower and minor force created lots of free bar space. The best one bar HA parses started to occur after that supposed "nerf". Overal that nerf You are talking about was an actuall buff to one bar HA playstyle. Even devs themsleves commented the change by saying "It may end up even stronger on some builds now, depending on your focus". And reasons why oakensoul was changed first time are not the same as right now. First time when it was changed is was done mainly because of the issues that mythic was causing in PvP not PvE. I am not complaining or calling for nerfs I am just explaining why the nerf is happening and that it's not a big nerf. That's a big difference but You are so fixated on Your point of view that You can't even accept that.

No proff was given. Just subjective arguments which were mostly already disproven. You have shown nothing. You just gave Your subjective opinion not supported by any reliable data whatsoever.

Long term effects will be the same as they always have been. People will adapt and move on. We've been there for over 9 years already, better get used to it. Long term effects will be also that other setups will have a chance to be effective in low and mid game instead of whole game being taken over by one HA setup.

You could adapt too, but instead you call for nerfs.

I was adapting for 9 years and I will continue to do so. And since it seems You had troubles with reading that comment You've quoted in it's full lenght I will repeat once again, I am not calling for nerfs I am explaining why this nerf is happening.

Your one liner also makes a little sense. Adapting in terms of occurance of oakensoul one bar HA that is taking over would basically mean that everyone who isn't top tier would need to jump and start using that setup. Considering that You don't even have fully prepared setup, fact that You are reccomending other people to adapt when You refuse it Yourself is pretty ironic. Fact that You would rather have balance completly destroyed than Your playstyle slightly nerfed is just sad.

[edited to remove quote]

Galeriano

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

And how do You get a value of DPS that companions should't go above? By watching top parses? No, You get it by monitoring what average and less experienced players can do which is excatly the same what they did to evaluate strenght of one bar HA setups.

Which is the problem. Those builds were meant to increase access to veteran content. It is meant to be an alternative high end build. Therefore the parses it should be compared to are high end parses. Compared to those parses, it was objectively significantly worse. Companions were meant to help with things like world bosses and normal dungeons, so that is what their damage is compared to. You compare like to like. Vet content is supposed to be balanced top-down, which means top parses are what heavy attack builds are supposed to be balanced around. And they objectively are overall worse than those builds.

What they are responding to is obviously the feedback and backlash. It can't be data because the data does not support a nerf.

Where did You get the impression that one bar HA were meant to be an alternative high end build? Devs themselves said they weren't.

It's funny that now argumentation for leaving one bar HA setups as they are is to look at top parses so basically now people want for balance to resolve around top 1% when ironically before oakensoul appearance excatly opposite claims were used, to not take top 1% into consideration when balancing the game. How tables have turned. It looks like some people don't care about balance all logic they will just say whatever currently fits their agenda.

Fact that top parses for one bar HA setups are on average worse than for two bar dynamic setups won't solve an issue that currently in vast majority of runs which are not top end ones one bar HA setups are noticably outperforming two bar dynamic setups. Top end is becoming like always an escape goat.

Data supports the nerf. There is many logs from mid game where one bar HA setups gratly outperforms two bar setups when used by players of similar skill. You are just refusing to accept reality at this point because it doesn't fit Your agenda so You create lines of reasoning that will.

Galeriano

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

And how do You get a value of DPS that companions should't go above? By watching top parses? No, You get it by monitoring what average and less experienced players can do which is excatly the same what they did to evaluate strenght of one bar HA setups.

Which is the problem. Those builds were meant to increase access to veteran content. It is meant to be an alternative high end build. Therefore the parses it should be compared to are high end parses. Compared to those parses, it was objectively significantly worse. Companions were meant to help with things like world bosses and normal dungeons, so that is what their damage is compared to. You compare like to like. Vet content is supposed to be balanced top-down, which means top parses are what heavy attack builds are supposed to be balanced around. And they objectively are overall worse than those builds.

What they are responding to is obviously the feedback and backlash. It can't be data because the data does not support a nerf.

And they did excatly that. But a little too well considering that one bar HA setups are taking over right now in veteran content. You don't need a 90-100k single target DPS with 3-4 buttons on AoE setup with unlimited sustain and high defense to acces vetetran content. Veteran content is not a high end content, Hard mode content is. SO basically You want high end parses to be taken as a baseline to balance mid game content. Yeah sure what can go wrong? Ah yes if some build will be noticably better for average player than top builds are than because of Your resoning it will dominate the playing field because it will go under the radar of balancing strategies You are promoting. I guess this is pretty much Your goal to set base standard so high that everything under it will go. By that logic one bar HA setups could be even buffed to do 129k on single target and it would still be fine with Your lines of reasoning because hey they're still lower than top parses. The way of thinking "as long as it's lower than top parses than it's fine" is really flawed, You need to set some breaking point after which actions must be taken You cannot just say that it's fine as log one is lower than the other when numbers are not the only factor that needs to be taken into consideration. Overall simplicity and usefulness is very important and cannot be ignored for the sake of just comparing raw numbers.

Data does support the nerf. You saying otherwise won't magically change reality.

loveeso

Thank you all for your kind comments and valuable input! As per Spartaxoxo's suggestion, I have created a separate thread on the Public Test Server forum. If you are interested in supporting our efforts to prevent this unjust nerf, please feel free to contribute to the thread by clicking on this link:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/632683/rolling-back-the-ha-nerfs-a-more-balanced-solution-for-all-players

loveeso

Trejgon wrote: »

You claim to have used Twilight Matriarch, but your CMX parse shows Twilight Tormentor....

Apologies for any confusion, but I believe you may have misread what I wrote. Please take another look at the other pet. Hope this helps

ZOS_Icy

Greetings,

We have recently removed some unnecessary back and forth from this thread. This is a reminder to keep the discussion civil and constructive. Please keep our Community Rules in mind moving forward.

Thank you for your understanding.

spartaxoxo

Galeriano wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

And how do You get a value of DPS that companions should't go above? By watching top parses? No, You get it by monitoring what average and less experienced players can do which is excatly the same what they did to evaluate strenght of one bar HA setups.

Which is the problem. Those builds were meant to increase access to veteran content. It is meant to be an alternative high end build. Therefore the parses it should be compared to are high end parses. Compared to those parses, it was objectively significantly worse. Companions were meant to help with things like world bosses and normal dungeons, so that is what their damage is compared to. You compare like to like. Vet content is supposed to be balanced top-down, which means top parses are what heavy attack builds are supposed to be balanced around. And they objectively are overall worse than those builds.

What they are responding to is obviously the feedback and backlash. It can't be data because the data does not support a nerf.

Where did You get the impression that one bar HA were meant to be an alternative high end build? Devs themselves said they weren't.

No. The devs did not state that. They stated the opposite.

The original intent of this set was to improve accessibility of one bar builds by providing many bonuses that you would get from running extra abilities on your back bar, and a few other named sources that may come from coordinated groups to help make up for the flexibility and specialization loss of having 5 ability choices instead of 10. While we did see the suggestions we’re incorporating now, we didn’t want to go too hard on the set after the heavy nerfs to the original form without some more concrete metrics and evidence, which we have gathered since Update 34 had launched

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/610438/update-35-combat-preview

They also talked in their streams about how they goal of the changes in this time period was to get more into vet content. So you're gonna have to put a citation on that as they explicitly shouted out the heavy attack builds when making these changes.

It's funny that now argumentation for leaving one bar HA setups as they are is to look at top parses so basically now people want for balance to resolve around top 1% when ironically before oakensoul appearance excatly opposite claims were used, to not take top 1% into consideration when balancing the game.

Vet trials should be balanced around the top.

Normal content should be balanced around the masses.

Vet dungeons should be balanced in-between as it's considered intermediate content.

Vet content shouldn't be balanced around people who aren't trying to do vet content makes perfect sense to me. And it was the general wisdom of the forums until Oakensoul. Are you saying that Vet Rockgrove should be balanced around the same people who can't outdamage the companions?

Galeriano

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

And how do You get a value of DPS that companions should't go above? By watching top parses? No, You get it by monitoring what average and less experienced players can do which is excatly the same what they did to evaluate strenght of one bar HA setups.

Which is the problem. Those builds were meant to increase access to veteran content. It is meant to be an alternative high end build. Therefore the parses it should be compared to are high end parses. Compared to those parses, it was objectively significantly worse. Companions were meant to help with things like world bosses and normal dungeons, so that is what their damage is compared to. You compare like to like. Vet content is supposed to be balanced top-down, which means top parses are what heavy attack builds are supposed to be balanced around. And they objectively are overall worse than those builds.

What they are responding to is obviously the feedback and backlash. It can't be data because the data does not support a nerf.

Where did You get the impression that one bar HA were meant to be an alternative high end build? Devs themselves said they weren't.

No. The devs did not state that. They stated the opposite.

The original intent of this set was to improve accessibility of one bar builds by providing many bonuses that you would get from running extra abilities on your back bar, and a few other named sources that may come from coordinated groups to help make up for the flexibility and specialization loss of having 5 ability choices instead of 10. While we did see the suggestions we’re incorporating now, we didn’t want to go too hard on the set after the heavy nerfs to the original form without some more concrete metrics and evidence, which we have gathered since Update 34 had launched

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/610438/update-35-combat-preview

They also talked in their streams about how they goal of the changes in this time period was to get more into vet content. So you're gonna have to put a citation on that as they explicitly shouted out the heavy attack builds when making these changes.

It's funny that now argumentation for leaving one bar HA setups as they are is to look at top parses so basically now people want for balance to resolve around top 1% when ironically before oakensoul appearance excatly opposite claims were used, to not take top 1% into consideration when balancing the game.

Vet trials should be balanced around the top.

Normal content should be balanced around the masses.

Vet dungeons should be balanced in-between as it's considered intermediate content.

Vet content shouldn't be balanced around people who aren't trying to do vet content makes perfect sense to me. And it was the general wisdom of the forums until Oakensoul. Are you saying that Vet Rockgrove should be balanced around the same people who can't outdamage the companions?

Once again vet content is not high end. it's mid end. Hard modes are high end. You have normal modes which are low end , veterans which are mid end and hard modes which are high end.

Devs said quote "while we're happy to see these builds being ran, we're seeing these builds inch a little too close to some of the high end builds with how much more simplified they are" which shows they didn't want for this setup to be an alternative high end setup due to the fact it's way simplier to play. Increasing accesibility of veteran content is not the same thing as being alternative to high end setup. You are mixing up those two things.

Vet trials shouldn't be balanced around top. If they would only 1% of playerbase would be able to finish them. It would go completly opposite to the idea of accesibility. Hard modes should be balanced around the top. Devs themselves even said long time ago that they are balancing veteran content around what's possible for 300 CP player in the era of old CPs when 801 was a cap.

I don't know how did You came up with conclusion that I am saying that " Vet Rockgrove should be balanced around the same people who can't outdamage the companions". People who cannot outdamage the companions are sitting at the low end and I never said that vet trials should be balanced around low end.

CP5

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

And how do You get a value of DPS that companions should't go above? By watching top parses? No, You get it by monitoring what average and less experienced players can do which is excatly the same what they did to evaluate strenght of one bar HA setups.

Which is the problem. Those builds were meant to increase access to veteran content. It is meant to be an alternative high end build. Therefore the parses it should be compared to are high end parses. Compared to those parses, it was objectively significantly worse. Companions were meant to help with things like world bosses and normal dungeons, so that is what their damage is compared to. You compare like to like. Vet content is supposed to be balanced top-down, which means top parses are what heavy attack builds are supposed to be balanced around. And they objectively are overall worse than those builds.

What they are responding to is obviously the feedback and backlash. It can't be data because the data does not support a nerf.

Where did You get the impression that one bar HA were meant to be an alternative high end build? Devs themselves said they weren't.

No. The devs did not state that. They stated the opposite.

The original intent of this set was to improve accessibility of one bar builds by providing many bonuses that you would get from running extra abilities on your back bar, and a few other named sources that may come from coordinated groups to help make up for the flexibility and specialization loss of having 5 ability choices instead of 10. While we did see the suggestions we’re incorporating now, we didn’t want to go too hard on the set after the heavy nerfs to the original form without some more concrete metrics and evidence, which we have gathered since Update 34 had launched

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/610438/update-35-combat-preview

They also talked in their streams about how they goal of the changes in this time period was to get more into vet content. So you're gonna have to put a citation on that as they explicitly shouted out the heavy attack builds when making these changes.

It's funny that now argumentation for leaving one bar HA setups as they are is to look at top parses so basically now people want for balance to resolve around top 1% when ironically before oakensoul appearance excatly opposite claims were used, to not take top 1% into consideration when balancing the game.

Vet trials should be balanced around the top.

Normal content should be balanced around the masses.

Vet dungeons should be balanced in-between as it's considered intermediate content.

Vet content shouldn't be balanced around people who aren't trying to do vet content makes perfect sense to me. And it was the general wisdom of the forums until Oakensoul. Are you saying that Vet Rockgrove should be balanced around the same people who can't outdamage the companions?

vAS+2 is dominated by Oakensorcs, you only see variety in builds as you look lower in difficulty, which means if you aren't bringing an Oakensoul build into that trial, your making things harder on yourself and your group. As was shown in Skinny Cheeks video, when you take into account all the buffs heavy attacks get in organized content, the damage loss to heavy attacks is incredibly low, and the only substantial nerf is the nerf to storm master.

As for this discussion in general, people building around Oakensoul are now 'meta gamers,' building their characters around the 'most effective tactic available,' and it changes. Everyone for years has been adapting to changes, and in any game that gets updated over time these happen. Everyone who is invested in higher end content has to adapt to each patch as they come out, and now that people who otherwise may have never touched higher end content are there, now the changes in the patch notes are much more relevant, and they have to learn this process as well.

isadoraisacat wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

I’m just gonna leave this video as a response to the one above:

https://youtu.be/PCEsTshKMSM

[snip]

[snip]

[snip]

[snip]

[snip]

You have been provided enough information to show heavy attack builds are not “over performing” save for a very minor small select few the average player is doing less dps and not even using the build to compete in “end game” content and has no bearing on those players to begin with.

Second of all this is the second time this play style has been nerfed for similar reasons and I will bet you my life it won’t be the last. There has been pages and pages of people like you complaining calling for nerfs.. and you won’t stop after this.

[snip] At this point we have all showed proof that this is not a positive direction. All you are doing at this point is arguing and being aggressive to people who share different view points.

once again the nerf it’s self isn’t the problem (it’s not helpful for us ) but it’s the long term effects this will have on a play style many of us prefer.

[snip]

I've been provided lots of subjective opinions not supported by factual data that's for sure. If one bar HA setups wouldn't be overpeorfming than so many people wouldnt run excatly the same one setup and there woulnd't be logs like the ones I linked where 92 ouf of top 100 parses in vAS are performed by one bar HA setups.

it's actually the first time when this playstyle is being nerfed. First time when oakensoul was changed to provide minor buffs instead of major ones there was also empower added to it and empower itself was changed from 40% to 80%. Major force was changed to minor force which is actually a better buff when we consider group content because major force is given by group when You usually need to provide minor force from Your own abilities. There was also minor slayer added which allowed HA setups to not care about sets that provide that buff and compensated loss of some other major buffs. Fact that You gained empower and minor force created lots of free bar space. The best one bar HA parses started to occur after that supposed "nerf". Overal that nerf You are talking about was an actuall buff to one bar HA playstyle. Even devs themsleves commented the change by saying "It may end up even stronger on some builds now, depending on your focus". And reasons why oakensoul was changed first time are not the same as right now. First time when it was changed is was done mainly because of the issues that mythic was causing in PvP not PvE. I am not complaining or calling for nerfs I am just explaining why the nerf is happening and that it's not a big nerf. That's a big difference but You are so fixated on Your point of view that You can't even accept that.

No proff was given. Just subjective arguments which were mostly already disproven. You have shown nothing. You just gave Your subjective opinion not supported by any reliable data whatsoever.

Long term effects will be the same as they always have been. People will adapt and move on. We've been there for over 9 years already, better get used to it. Long term effects will be also that other setups will have a chance to be effective in low and mid game instead of whole game being taken over by one HA setup.

You could adapt too, but instead you call for nerfs.

[edited to remove quote]

So yes, the game changes, the current state of Oakensoul provides builds that are easy to use, incredibly durable, with unlimited sustain and great aoe damage, that are dominating and choking out alternative playstyles and making content stagnant as this build offers as much damage as vet content needs while also being easier to use and more forgiving as well. The game changes, and it will until it comes to an end, your own advice may be worth listening to, and hopefully ZOS will introduce more sets to expand on the number of build options heavy attack builds can use, but as it stands heavy attack builds are strong, are dominating in several areas, and are getting a very slight nerf compared to what ZOS has delt in the past.

Kusto

What some people don't realize is that oaken ha is crazy strong in content. On dummy it's ok too but nothing impressive. The reason is that the HA build has most of the damage aoe whereas the top 130k 2bar parses are single target. Also their survivability is not comparable. 130k sweaty build uses parse food and therefore has low hp, low resistances and plays in melee range but oaken player is tanky, has no sustain worries and ranged. People comparing apples and oranges.

Galeriano

Kusto wrote: »

What some people don't realize is that oaken ha is crazy strong in content. On dummy it's ok too but nothing impressive. The reason is that the HA build has most of the damage aoe whereas the top 130k 2bar parses are single target. Also their survivability is not comparable. 130k sweaty build uses parse food and therefore has low hp, low resistances and plays in melee range but oaken player is tanky, has no sustain worries and ranged. People comparing apples and oranges.

I wouldn't say they don't realize that since that argument was repeated many times already. They just ignore it or twist it because it doesn't fit their view.

markulrich1966

these threads were quite interesting (apart from one guy spamming even when the op explicitly requested not to abuse it for another general discussion).

Interesting, because it confirms my impression, that
1.) adding mythics destroyed the classic combat system
2.) that the still unresolved nerf-hammer of U35 worsened the situation even more

Before, we had disputes concerning sets and the problems caused by the difficulty to balance PVE and PVP simultaneously
Now, we have the massive impact of mythics in addition, and the U35 hammer was the reason for several posters to switch to a build, that was initially not intended for them (but for people with handicaps instead)

I am somewhat frightened, because I'm not certain that this mess can be resolved in a manner that will be ok for one "side" without disrupting the gaming experience for the other.
It certainly has not helped, that ZoS refused to publish the often requested Q&A concerning their combat changes, so people have nothing left than wild speculations, resulting in endless back&forth discussion. Tiresome discussions, I just partly follow meanwhile, and no longer participate in, have resignated. My Eso+ remains unsubscribed for now, as I see no progress, though I'm sad to say this, as I really like this game.

FrancisCrawford

Kusto wrote: »

What some people don't realize is that oaken ha is crazy strong in content. On dummy it's ok too but nothing impressive. The reason is that the HA build has most of the damage aoe whereas the top 130k 2bar parses are single target. Also their survivability is not comparable. 130k sweaty build uses parse food and therefore has low hp, low resistances and plays in melee range but oaken player is tanky, has no sustain worries and ranged. People comparing apples and oranges.

Ranged/melee and AoE are fair points to raise.

But I don't understand the big deal about survivability, given how many mechanics are one-shots anyway.

(And by the way -- if you have to trade some magicka/stamina for health to get enough live-game survivability, surely the overall impact on your DPS won't be more than 10% or so?)

Kusto

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

Kusto wrote: »

What some people don't realize is that oaken ha is crazy strong in content. On dummy it's ok too but nothing impressive. The reason is that the HA build has most of the damage aoe whereas the top 130k 2bar parses are single target. Also their survivability is not comparable. 130k sweaty build uses parse food and therefore has low hp, low resistances and plays in melee range but oaken player is tanky, has no sustain worries and ranged. People comparing apples and oranges.

Ranged/melee and AoE are fair points to raise.

But I don't understand the big deal about survivability, given how many mechanics are one-shots anyway.

(And by the way -- if you have to trade some magicka/stamina for health to get enough live-game survivability, surely the overall impact on your DPS won't be more than 10% or so?)

Alot of stuff is 1 shot yes but the resistances and extra hp can also save you where regular 2 bar build would've died. vSS dragon breath for example. We've all seen some pug tank loosing aggro or dies to it and the breath goes in group. With oaken build I can survive it and tank the boss until real tank gets rezed. vAS aoe kiting, no need. Just pop shield and stand in it while parsing lol. I've even survived Zmajas nocturnal while half the group was dead and tank was wearing pearl.
It's just so much easier with oaken. You don't need to react as quickly as with regular builds. You can stand in red for extra couple of seconds and survive big adds hits when they are lose. You still gotta do the mechanics that can kill you though. I can do personal no death runs all day with oaken in any vet trials but few slip ups happen with 2 bar builds in almost every run.
I have nothing against oaken ha dps output but then there should be survivability downside. Shouldn't have both.