Thoughts of a Random Guy on Necrom Changes to HA / Heavy-Attack builds & on Arcanist

spartaxoxo

Galeriano wrote: »

Once again vet content is not high end. it's mid end. Hard modes are high end. You have normal modes which are low end , veterans which are mid end and hard modes which are high end.

Devs said quote "while we're happy to see these builds being ran, we're seeing these builds inch a little too close to some of the high end builds with how much more simplified they are" which shows they didn't want for this setup to be an alternative high end setup due to the fact it's way simplier to play. Increasing accesibility of veteran content is not the same thing as being alternative to high end setup. You are mixing up those two things.

They are saying in the patch notes that the damage is too close not that they are reversing design decision. We already know they are basing this in part on content creator and social media feedback, because they have explicitly stated they use that type of information to help them in their decision making.

For reference, in many of ESO’s high-end experiences and activities, the average build sees roughly 15–20% of their overall damage coming from Light Attacks alone, which is a huge contribution to the delta of power we see. While testing these adjustments internally, we’ve seen a reduction of 6–11% to overall damage, which allows for a much smaller and healthier gap while still retaining the sense of mastery and expression of that mastery with weaving.

With this adjustment, we’ll also be making a significant number of changes to item sets, passives, and buffs to ensure classes remain balanced in damage production, while also trying to do a better job allowing builds to amplify these actions (we’ve heard your cries, Heavy Attack build lovers, and we want better for you) without introducing unhealthy gameplay between PvE and PvP.

So no, the heavy attack builds was explicitly designed to help close the gap between weaving and heavy attack builds in high end content. It is not meant for low end content, and therefore shouldn't be balanced based off those players. Players that have no interest in being high end players should never be the benchmark for any vet content build.

Auldwulfe

Well, the people who dislike HA can pat themselves on the back -- both of the people, who's accounts I cover, have said this has gotten idiotic, and therefore they don't want me to renew ... since mine ends a couple of weeks after, and one of them is my fiance' -- I guess the loss of 3 accounts isn't much... but if the statements on other forums is accurate ...it's probably going to be more .....

As they said, the constant screaming, whining and griping has killed the fun.

Auldwulfe

Liguar

If there is a big range between top and bottom output of players using 2 bar, LA weaving builds then something should have been done to fix that gap, not anything else.

This has gone on for months and no one has made a serious argument as to why LA weaving should be the only proper way to play. The fact that the devs have decided to agree with the group of players that want LA weaving to be significantly better than everything else, and nerf down alternatives, shows that "play as you want" is a nice catchphrase but not something to take literally. No, being willing and able to execute higher APM is not a measure of being better, why do you insist on making it so?

I was looking forward to Necrom, as the new mythics seemed interesting. But given the precedent, it seems like any new playstyles will also eventually have to be kept in line (beneath) the 2 bar meritocracy. Then what is the point?

Lastly, adding new gear/mechanics and invoking terms like accessibility (as was done with oakensoul), and then saying well no, the ramp should only go 75% of the way up because accessibility is not meant to result in parity, it's poor. And it's a shame so many people on the forum are comfortable defending this position.

Edit: the fact that all this boils down to a bunch of people who literally begrudge others for enjoying their game time is crazypants!

Umbro100

Galeriano wrote: »

Kusto wrote: »

What some people don't realize is that oaken ha is crazy strong in content. On dummy it's ok too but nothing impressive. The reason is that the HA build has most of the damage aoe whereas the top 130k 2bar parses are single target. Also their survivability is not comparable. 130k sweaty build uses parse food and therefore has low hp, low resistances and plays in melee range but oaken player is tanky, has no sustain worries and ranged. People comparing apples and oranges.

I wouldn't say they don't realize that since that argument was repeated many times already. They just ignore it or twist it because it doesn't fit their view.

It fits my view perfectly. I am a healer and since helaers are not needed in most of the dungeons that are played daily, I did not play them at all. Have all tre trials trifectas but the last 2 ones. Never played a serious dd because I can not weave or rather, do not want to.Standing in front of a dummy and clicking buttons like crazy feels very stupid, the awkward movement of the character when the animation is cancelled is just, meh. I know - if I am not willing to do these boring unintuitive things, I dont deserve to play high end content ! Why ? Weaving was a bug they could not correct, people exploited it and then it suddenly became a feature, because they did not know how to fix it. And now the whole game ironicaly revolves around it and you are expected to have a calculator and a spread sheets and take in count 20 ? 30 ? 50 ? different buffs and perfect timing and then, only then you are allowed to play high end content. I am sure at least half of the playerbase have no idea what minor, major this and that means and does and when and why. Probably half of the people who play high end content does not know either.They stand in front of the dummy, click click click for ages while everyone is using the same gear and same cp and most of the time same class that is a current meta, which they copied from youtube. So the only difference is, these guys are clicking on time, a lot. They are getting a significantly more damage then the other guy holding down one button, but they are still upset beacuse lets admit, they must feel very stupid for all that clicking and now someone else does not have to.They do less damage but hey, they dont franticaly click, that is not ok ! By now everyone knows that 2 bar builds are stronger then 1 bar. Whoever wants to have the top dps will still practice and get into score pushing trials and have the satisfaction that in tyhe Hodor dps meter their name is at the top...The rest should also be able to play all vet and hm dungeons, trials and have fun in the game, which is why any game should be played. Getting more people involved in every content is healty and good for the game and for everyone playing it. Except maybe for thepeople selling ahivements for enourmous amounts of money. I did maelstrom, vateshran on vet and started doing pledges since the ha/oakensoul build emerged and I love it. For me it was a good designer decision. Learned a long time ago that with this game, you must be fast and enjoy something while it lasts because it will be taken away sooner or later. Then we either adapt or play and pay less, whichever is easier

Galeriano

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

Once again vet content is not high end. it's mid end. Hard modes are high end. You have normal modes which are low end , veterans which are mid end and hard modes which are high end.

Devs said quote "while we're happy to see these builds being ran, we're seeing these builds inch a little too close to some of the high end builds with how much more simplified they are" which shows they didn't want for this setup to be an alternative high end setup due to the fact it's way simplier to play. Increasing accesibility of veteran content is not the same thing as being alternative to high end setup. You are mixing up those two things.

They are saying in the patch notes that the damage is too close not that they are reversing design decision. We already know they are basing this in part on content creator and social media feedback, because they have explicitly stated they use that type of information to help them in their decision making.

For reference, in many of ESO’s high-end experiences and activities, the average build sees roughly 15–20% of their overall damage coming from Light Attacks alone, which is a huge contribution to the delta of power we see. While testing these adjustments internally, we’ve seen a reduction of 6–11% to overall damage, which allows for a much smaller and healthier gap while still retaining the sense of mastery and expression of that mastery with weaving.

With this adjustment, we’ll also be making a significant number of changes to item sets, passives, and buffs to ensure classes remain balanced in damage production, while also trying to do a better job allowing builds to amplify these actions (we’ve heard your cries, Heavy Attack build lovers, and we want better for you) without introducing unhealthy gameplay between PvE and PvP.

So no, the heavy attack builds was explicitly designed to help close the gap between weaving and heavy attack builds in high end content. It is not meant for low end content, and therefore shouldn't be balanced based off those players. Players that have no interest in being high end players should never be the benchmark for any vet content build.

Reversing a decision would mean bringing 80% empower back to 40%. Making it 70% is just tuning it down a little. They didn't said they used that informations in this specific case as their main reason to make changes. Quotes You've been using were used in different context. In quote about empower they specifically stated "we're seeing these builds inch a little too close to some of the high end builds" they didn't said that content creators or social media showed it to them and they've made their decision based on that. Yeah these types of media could bring their attentiuon to the subject but final decision was still made by them and based on their data not on some YT videos.

You are cherypicking and adding Your own contecxt to literally every dev comment You can find. In empower change notes they've specifically stated they don't want these builds to be too close to high end because of how simplier they are. That's it. Fact that earlier when HA setups were weaker than now they wanted them to be closer to high end setups doesn't mean they wanted them to be an alternative or replacement for high end setups in high end content. These are two different things.

spartaxoxo

CP5 wrote: »

As for this discussion in general, people building around Oakensoul are now 'meta gamers,' building their characters around the 'most effective tactic available,' and it changes. Everyone for years has been adapting to changes, and in any game that gets updated over time these happen. Everyone who is invested in higher end content has to adapt to each patch as they come out, and now that people who otherwise may have never touched higher end content are there, now the changes in the patch notes are much more relevant, and they have to learn this process as well.

While this is definitely a fair point, especially in regard to the storm master set or whatever's its name is, I'd like to point out one thing. They aren't just changing a set; they have changed the empower buff itself. Any changes to major/minor buffs are met with the same feedback (and rightfully so) as we're seeing heavy attack builds here. It's much, much harder to adapt to a change to the buffs themselves than to changes to a set.

In addition, there are fewer set options for heavy attack builds to begin with. ZOS has only recently stated they want this to be alternative build choice for this kind of content. So, HA users are rightfully on edge that the end goal here isn't just to reign in damage a little but remove the ability for HA users to participate in certain content at all. It is the space that heavy attack builds have occupied for the majority of the game's lifespan. And it doesn't help that there are certainly a vocal group of users that want that to be end goal as well. Time will tell, I suppose.

jaws343

spartaxoxo wrote: »

CP5 wrote: »

As for this discussion in general, people building around Oakensoul are now 'meta gamers,' building their characters around the 'most effective tactic available,' and it changes. Everyone for years has been adapting to changes, and in any game that gets updated over time these happen. Everyone who is invested in higher end content has to adapt to each patch as they come out, and now that people who otherwise may have never touched higher end content are there, now the changes in the patch notes are much more relevant, and they have to learn this process as well.

While this is definitely a fair point, especially in regard to the storm master set or whatever's its name is, I'd like to point out one thing. They aren't just changing a set; they have changed the empower buff itself. Any changes to major/minor buffs are met with the same feedback (and rightfully so) as we're seeing heavy attack builds here. It's much, much harder to adapt to a change to the buffs themselves than to changes to a set.

In addition, there are fewer set options for heavy attack builds to begin with. ZOS has only recently stated they want this to be alternative build choice for this kind of content. So, HA users are rightfully on edge that the end goal here isn't just to reign in damage a little but remove the ability for HA users to participate in certain content at all. It is the space that heavy attack builds have occupied for the majority of the game's lifespan. And it doesn't help that there are certainly a vocal group of users that want that to be end goal as well. Time will tell, I suppose.

The change to Empower is only a 6% nerf to Empower itself, and like a 2% nerf to heavy attack damage in a full DPS calculation. It's almost nothing for anyone doing low DPS and shaves less than 2K off for people parsing at the top end of the build. In its current nerfed state, it's a rounding error more than a nerf.

isadoraisacat

Umbro100 wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

Kusto wrote: »

What some people don't realize is that oaken ha is crazy strong in content. On dummy it's ok too but nothing impressive. The reason is that the HA build has most of the damage aoe whereas the top 130k 2bar parses are single target. Also their survivability is not comparable. 130k sweaty build uses parse food and therefore has low hp, low resistances and plays in melee range but oaken player is tanky, has no sustain worries and ranged. People comparing apples and oranges.

I wouldn't say they don't realize that since that argument was repeated many times already. They just ignore it or twist it because it doesn't fit their view.

It fits my view perfectly. I am a healer and since helaers are not needed in most of the dungeons that are played daily, I did not play them at all. Have all tre trials trifectas but the last 2 ones. Never played a serious dd because I can not weave or rather, do not want to.Standing in front of a dummy and clicking buttons like crazy feels very stupid, the awkward movement of the character when the animation is cancelled is just, meh. I know - if I am not willing to do these boring unintuitive things, I dont deserve to play high end content ! Why ? Weaving was a bug they could not correct, people exploited it and then it suddenly became a feature, because they did not know how to fix it. And now the whole game ironicaly revolves around it and you are expected to have a calculator and a spread sheets and take in count 20 ? 30 ? 50 ? different buffs and perfect timing and then, only then you are allowed to play high end content. I am sure at least half of the playerbase have no idea what minor, major this and that means and does and when and why. Probably half of the people who play high end content does not know either.They stand in front of the dummy, click click click for ages while everyone is using the same gear and same cp and most of the time same class that is a current meta, which they copied from youtube. So the only difference is, these guys are clicking on time, a lot. They are getting a significantly more damage then the other guy holding down one button, but they are still upset beacuse lets admit, they must feel very stupid for all that clicking and now someone else does not have to.They do less damage but hey, they dont franticaly click, that is not ok ! By now everyone knows that 2 bar builds are stronger then 1 bar. Whoever wants to have the top dps will still practice and get into score pushing trials and have the satisfaction that in tyhe Hodor dps meter their name is at the top...The rest should also be able to play all vet and hm dungeons, trials and have fun in the game, which is why any game should be played. Getting more people involved in every content is healty and good for the game and for everyone playing it. Except maybe for thepeople selling ahivements for enourmous amounts of money. I did maelstrom, vateshran on vet and started doing pledges since the ha/oakensoul build emerged and I love it. For me it was a good designer decision. Learned a long time ago that with this game, you must be fast and enjoy something while it lasts because it will be taken away sooner or later. Then we either adapt or play and pay less, whichever is easier

So incredibly based. Thank you for this comment.

CP5

spartaxoxo wrote: »

CP5 wrote: »

As for this discussion in general, people building around Oakensoul are now 'meta gamers,' building their characters around the 'most effective tactic available,' and it changes. Everyone for years has been adapting to changes, and in any game that gets updated over time these happen. Everyone who is invested in higher end content has to adapt to each patch as they come out, and now that people who otherwise may have never touched higher end content are there, now the changes in the patch notes are much more relevant, and they have to learn this process as well.

While this is definitely a fair point, especially in regard to the storm master set or whatever's its name is, I'd like to point out one thing. They aren't just changing a set; they have changed the empower buff itself. Any changes to major/minor buffs are met with the same feedback (and rightfully so) as we're seeing heavy attack builds here. It's much, much harder to adapt to a change to the buffs themselves than to changes to a set.

In addition, there are fewer set options for heavy attack builds to begin with. ZOS has only recently stated they want this to be alternative build choice for this kind of content. So, HA users are rightfully on edge that the end goal here isn't just to reign in damage a little but remove the ability for HA users to participate in certain content at all. It is the space that heavy attack builds have occupied for the majority of the game's lifespan. And it doesn't help that there are certainly a vocal group of users that want that to be end goal as well. Time will tell, I suppose.

The nerf to empower is slight, and there are other sets that people can switch to should the storm master nerf prove to be too punishing. Skinny explicitly stated this, and I agree with it, that more sets should be made to help accommodate players who enjoy that kind of gameplay to enable more builds than the one singular one we see, but outside of score pushing and trifectas, they can still participate in that content just fine.

But the mentality that 'you can't touch my build' and 'now that my build has been nerfed, everything is ruined' is what will keep people out of that content. An unwillingness to adapt, adjust, or learn, thinking that things just need to be kept as is. One of the smallest nerfs ZOS has ever put out for a build is causing this kind of uproar, and all thats come from it is finger pointing and blame placing, despite how common it is for things to be buffed and nerfed.

spartaxoxo

CP5 wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

CP5 wrote: »

As for this discussion in general, people building around Oakensoul are now 'meta gamers,' building their characters around the 'most effective tactic available,' and it changes. Everyone for years has been adapting to changes, and in any game that gets updated over time these happen. Everyone who is invested in higher end content has to adapt to each patch as they come out, and now that people who otherwise may have never touched higher end content are there, now the changes in the patch notes are much more relevant, and they have to learn this process as well.

While this is definitely a fair point, especially in regard to the storm master set or whatever's its name is, I'd like to point out one thing. They aren't just changing a set; they have changed the empower buff itself. Any changes to major/minor buffs are met with the same feedback (and rightfully so) as we're seeing heavy attack builds here. It's much, much harder to adapt to a change to the buffs themselves than to changes to a set.

In addition, there are fewer set options for heavy attack builds to begin with. ZOS has only recently stated they want this to be alternative build choice for this kind of content. So, HA users are rightfully on edge that the end goal here isn't just to reign in damage a little but remove the ability for HA users to participate in certain content at all. It is the space that heavy attack builds have occupied for the majority of the game's lifespan. And it doesn't help that there are certainly a vocal group of users that want that to be end goal as well. Time will tell, I suppose.

The nerf to empower is slight, and there are other sets that people can switch to should the storm master nerf prove to be too punishing. Skinny explicitly stated this, and I agree with it, that more sets should be made to help accommodate players who enjoy that kind of gameplay to enable more builds than the one singular one we see, but outside of score pushing and trifectas, they can still participate in that content just fine.

But the mentality that 'you can't touch my build' and 'now that my build has been nerfed, everything is ruined' is what will keep people out of that content. An unwillingness to adapt, adjust, or learn, thinking that things just need to be kept as is. One of the smallest nerfs ZOS has ever put out for a build is causing this kind of uproar, and all thats come from it is finger pointing and blame placing, despite how common it is for things to be buffed and nerfed.

10% is a not slight. This isn't one of the smallest nerfs. I have seen bigger uproar for less. And again, part of the reason is the lack of sets. That's not been true with other nerfs.

ETA

What I'm trying to say it's not just a mindset of not wanting to adapt that is informing the pushback, but also a lack of set options that allow for the flexibility to adapt. When that is paired with dubious logic about why the nerf is needed in the first place, it's not a wonder that people question if these builds are really going to be allowed to compete or if the endgoal is remove them from certain gameplay completely.

spartaxoxo

jaws343 wrote: »

The change to Empower is only a 6% nerf to Empower itself, and like a 2% nerf to heavy attack damage in a full DPS calculation. It's almost nothing for anyone doing low DPS and shaves less than 2K off for people parsing at the top end of the build. In its current nerfed state, it's a rounding error more than a nerf.

It's a 10% nerf to empower itself.

CP5

While the lack of sets is true, when you consider how the game combines buffs, just looking at empower alone. Without empower the heavy attack is at 100% value, on live it is at 180%, and on pts its 170%, or just about 5.6% less total, but when you add any other buffs to the equation this amount becomes smaller and smaller. Looking at Skinny Cheeks video again, since I hope people can respect he knows how to look at these numbers, if you add in buffs from champion points and oakensoul buffs, on live heavy attacks reach 219% damage, and on pts it is 209%, which is a 4.57% loss in damage.

Then that gets diluted by any abilities, enchantments, or proc sets, making the loss smaller and smaller. That is not a major change, if empower was added last after all other damage calculations, then it would have a major impact, but it is only one brick in a wall, and all the other pieces make the change, again, small. So, how is a build being barred from content for a 4.5% damage loss?

spartaxoxo

CP5 wrote: »

While the lack of sets is true, when you consider how the game combines buffs, just looking at empower alone. Without empower the heavy attack is at 100% value, on live it is at 180%, and on pts its 170%, or just about 5.6% less total, but when you add any other buffs to the equation this amount becomes smaller and smaller. Looking at Skinny Cheeks video again, since I hope people can respect he knows how to look at these numbers, if you add in buffs from champion points and oakensoul buffs, on live heavy attacks reach 219% damage, and on pts it is 209%, which is a 4.57% loss in damage.

Then that gets diluted by any abilities, enchantments, or proc sets, making the loss smaller and smaller. That is not a major change, if empower was added last after all other damage calculations, then it would have a major impact, but it is only one brick in a wall, and all the other pieces make the change, again, small. So, how is a build being barred from content for a 4.5% damage loss?

One example I saw was someone posted their parses on live and PTS. Their parse on live was low 80s and on the PTS low 70s. When I looked at it, it was below the threshold that the overwhelming majority of guilds on my server allow for even clears. It was like 72kish IIRC and the cut-off for PUGS is 75k.

So, that person went from a parse that could easily find groups to one that would have to find a unicorn guild that allows people hitting below 75k to participate in clears of just regular vet. Anything below 75k for my server puts it in the unacceptable range.

That's my main concern, tbh. I wouldn't care if it was a 5% nerf to empower because then that would mean it would be still above the cutoff for the overwhelming majority of guilds. I'm less concerned about the ability to do HMs than I am about the ability to participate in realistic terms (find the perfect guild is not realistic imo) in regular vet clears.

isadoraisacat

CP5 wrote: »

While the lack of sets is true, when you consider how the game combines buffs, just looking at empower alone. Without empower the heavy attack is at 100% value, on live it is at 180%, and on pts its 170%, or just about 5.6% less total, but when you add any other buffs to the equation this amount becomes smaller and smaller. Looking at Skinny Cheeks video again, since I hope people can respect he knows how to look at these numbers, if you add in buffs from champion points and oakensoul buffs, on live heavy attacks reach 219% damage, and on pts it is 209%, which is a 4.57% loss in damage.

Then that gets diluted by any abilities, enchantments, or proc sets, making the loss smaller and smaller. That is not a major change, if empower was added last after all other damage calculations, then it would have a major impact, but it is only one brick in a wall, and all the other pieces make the change, again, small. So, how is a build being barred from content for a 4.5% damage loss?

I’m tired of people basing what they want to do on a game because of what “influencers” and “content creators” say. Each one of them has their own agendas and bias. Everyone should be left with their own play style choices, and be able to play how they want. Elite players and content creators should not dictate how others should be able to enjoy the game or any game.

Galeriano

isadoraisacat wrote: »

CP5 wrote: »

While the lack of sets is true, when you consider how the game combines buffs, just looking at empower alone. Without empower the heavy attack is at 100% value, on live it is at 180%, and on pts its 170%, or just about 5.6% less total, but when you add any other buffs to the equation this amount becomes smaller and smaller. Looking at Skinny Cheeks video again, since I hope people can respect he knows how to look at these numbers, if you add in buffs from champion points and oakensoul buffs, on live heavy attacks reach 219% damage, and on pts it is 209%, which is a 4.57% loss in damage.

Then that gets diluted by any abilities, enchantments, or proc sets, making the loss smaller and smaller. That is not a major change, if empower was added last after all other damage calculations, then it would have a major impact, but it is only one brick in a wall, and all the other pieces make the change, again, small. So, how is a build being barred from content for a 4.5% damage loss?

I’m tired of people basing what they want to do on a game because of what “influencers” and “content creators” say. Each one of them has their own agendas and bias. Everyone should be left with their own play style choices, and be able to play how they want. Elite players and content creators should not dictate how others should be able to enjoy the game or any game.

Math don't have agendas and biases.

CP5

And who do you trust, people who dedicate large amounts of time actually figuring out the math behind the scenes, or people who just read the patch notes and immediately come to conclusions as to how things will pan out. They make content for ESO, they benefit from ESO thriving, why do you think they have an evil agenda to try to mislead people? Does the math not make sense? And, for his video in particular, did his efforts to try to calm this insane reaction not seem genuine?

There isn't a cabal trying to ruin the game for you, and this change isn't the end of the world. Math is math, and while the change to storm master does come with some changes that almost everyone else who does end game content is already used to doing, the simple fact is balance changes, and if you're trying to do end game content, adjusting to balance passes is the norm. No one is demanding you play a particular way, but if you're trying to do challenging content, and you need to meet particular standards to do that content, and the minutia of reaching that bar changes from one patch to the next, welcome to what everyone else already does.

Others aren't dictating how you should enjoy the game, they are explaining the math of how the game works to people can make informed decisions about how to reach the goals they need to in order to do the content they want to do.

Galeriano

spartaxoxo wrote: »

CP5 wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

CP5 wrote: »

As for this discussion in general, people building around Oakensoul are now 'meta gamers,' building their characters around the 'most effective tactic available,' and it changes. Everyone for years has been adapting to changes, and in any game that gets updated over time these happen. Everyone who is invested in higher end content has to adapt to each patch as they come out, and now that people who otherwise may have never touched higher end content are there, now the changes in the patch notes are much more relevant, and they have to learn this process as well.

While this is definitely a fair point, especially in regard to the storm master set or whatever's its name is, I'd like to point out one thing. They aren't just changing a set; they have changed the empower buff itself. Any changes to major/minor buffs are met with the same feedback (and rightfully so) as we're seeing heavy attack builds here. It's much, much harder to adapt to a change to the buffs themselves than to changes to a set.

In addition, there are fewer set options for heavy attack builds to begin with. ZOS has only recently stated they want this to be alternative build choice for this kind of content. So, HA users are rightfully on edge that the end goal here isn't just to reign in damage a little but remove the ability for HA users to participate in certain content at all. It is the space that heavy attack builds have occupied for the majority of the game's lifespan. And it doesn't help that there are certainly a vocal group of users that want that to be end goal as well. Time will tell, I suppose.

The nerf to empower is slight, and there are other sets that people can switch to should the storm master nerf prove to be too punishing. Skinny explicitly stated this, and I agree with it, that more sets should be made to help accommodate players who enjoy that kind of gameplay to enable more builds than the one singular one we see, but outside of score pushing and trifectas, they can still participate in that content just fine.

But the mentality that 'you can't touch my build' and 'now that my build has been nerfed, everything is ruined' is what will keep people out of that content. An unwillingness to adapt, adjust, or learn, thinking that things just need to be kept as is. One of the smallest nerfs ZOS has ever put out for a build is causing this kind of uproar, and all thats come from it is finger pointing and blame placing, despite how common it is for things to be buffed and nerfed.

10% is a not slight. This isn't one of the smallest nerfs. I have seen bigger uproar for less. And again, part of the reason is the lack of sets. That's not been true with other nerfs.

ETA

What I'm trying to say it's not just a mindset of not wanting to adapt that is informing the pushback, but also a lack of set options that allow for the flexibility to adapt. When that is paired with dubious logic about why the nerf is needed in the first place, it's not a wonder that people question if these builds are really going to be allowed to compete or if the endgoal is remove them from certain gameplay completely.

There are set options that will allow to adapt.

Me personally in places where storm master uptime will be low but group support will be good I will switch to undaunted infiltrator. It have 2x stamina bonus but it's not an issue since You can easily make one bar setup fully stamina based since Your mag sustain is more than enough from heavy attack. I am already running as max stam based one bar HA character. High stamina is actually pretty usefull since it allows to also use decent stamina abilities and things like block or dodge more efficiently.

In places where storm master uptime will be low and group support won't be ideal I will switch to noble duelist to get additional penetration from light armor pieces.

The only thing I would love to see is for example if ZoS would change undaunted infiltrator and unweared max mag and stam bonuses to wep/spell dmg or crit making them more universal or even making them two version of the same set which would allow to combine light and medium armor pieces accordingly.

jaws343

spartaxoxo wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

The change to Empower is only a 6% nerf to Empower itself, and like a 2% nerf to heavy attack damage in a full DPS calculation. It's almost nothing for anyone doing low DPS and shaves less than 2K off for people parsing at the top end of the build. In its current nerfed state, it's a rounding error more than a nerf.

It's a 10% nerf to empower itself.

No, it is not. It is -10%. But -10% does not mean a 10% loss.

For example:

Say a Heavy attack does 1,000 base damage.

With Live Empower it will do 1,800 damage.
With PTS Empower it will do 1700 damage.

1700 damage is a 6% drop from 1800 damage.
1700/1800 = 94%

isadoraisacat

CP5 wrote: »

And who do you trust, people who dedicate large amounts of time actually figuring out the math behind the scenes, or people who just read the patch notes and immediately come to conclusions as to how things will pan out. They make content for ESO, they benefit from ESO thriving, why do you think they have an evil agenda to try to mislead people? Does the math not make sense? And, for his video in particular, did his efforts to try to calm this insane reaction not seem genuine?

There isn't a cabal trying to ruin the game for you, and this change isn't the end of the world. Math is math, and while the change to storm master does come with some changes that almost everyone else who does end game content is already used to doing, the simple fact is balance changes, and if you're trying to do end game content, adjusting to balance passes is the norm. No one is demanding you play a particular way, but if you're trying to do challenging content, and you need to meet particular standards to do that content, and the minutia of reaching that bar changes from one patch to the next, welcome to what everyone else already does.

Others aren't dictating how you should enjoy the game, they are explaining the math of how the game works to people can make informed decisions about how to reach the goals they need to in order to do the content they want to do.

Others are dictating though those calling for nerfs, those being rude / condescending and following people around threads to insult them simply because they have a different view point.

Those in comment sections calling for nerfs, those making threads calling for nerfs, those creators calling for nerfs rallying up others to call for nerfs.

Sometimes math needs to take a back seat and what’s good for all players and not just top elite should be considered. But sure let’s live our lives on what celebs and influencers tell us.

CP5

isadoraisacat wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

CP5 wrote: »

While the lack of sets is true, when you consider how the game combines buffs, just looking at empower alone. Without empower the heavy attack is at 100% value, on live it is at 180%, and on pts its 170%, or just about 5.6% less total, but when you add any other buffs to the equation this amount becomes smaller and smaller. Looking at Skinny Cheeks video again, since I hope people can respect he knows how to look at these numbers, if you add in buffs from champion points and oakensoul buffs, on live heavy attacks reach 219% damage, and on pts it is 209%, which is a 4.57% loss in damage.

Then that gets diluted by any abilities, enchantments, or proc sets, making the loss smaller and smaller. That is not a major change, if empower was added last after all other damage calculations, then it would have a major impact, but it is only one brick in a wall, and all the other pieces make the change, again, small. So, how is a build being barred from content for a 4.5% damage loss?

I’m tired of people basing what they want to do on a game because of what “influencers” and “content creators” say. Each one of them has their own agendas and bias. Everyone should be left with their own play style choices, and be able to play how they want. Elite players and content creators should not dictate how others should be able to enjoy the game or any game.

Math don't have agendas and biases.

Maybe not but you certainly do

We're trying to explain it isn't the end of the world, that changes like these are common. Anyone trying to do end game content needs to deal with these changes if they wish to do end game content regularly, and the math is the underlying foundation of how things work and how builds capable of doing end game content are built off of. A mild nerf to a single buff, and a change to one gear set doesn't destroy the game for end game raiders, and the damage loss for all other pve content does not impact the ability of players to do that content. The mentality of 'this should never be allowed to be changed' is where other players would take issue, if that mentality bleeds into the group play, but no one is trying to single you out just to ruin your ability to enjoy the game.

isadoraisacat

CP5 wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

CP5 wrote: »

While the lack of sets is true, when you consider how the game combines buffs, just looking at empower alone. Without empower the heavy attack is at 100% value, on live it is at 180%, and on pts its 170%, or just about 5.6% less total, but when you add any other buffs to the equation this amount becomes smaller and smaller. Looking at Skinny Cheeks video again, since I hope people can respect he knows how to look at these numbers, if you add in buffs from champion points and oakensoul buffs, on live heavy attacks reach 219% damage, and on pts it is 209%, which is a 4.57% loss in damage.

Then that gets diluted by any abilities, enchantments, or proc sets, making the loss smaller and smaller. That is not a major change, if empower was added last after all other damage calculations, then it would have a major impact, but it is only one brick in a wall, and all the other pieces make the change, again, small. So, how is a build being barred from content for a 4.5% damage loss?

I’m tired of people basing what they want to do on a game because of what “influencers” and “content creators” say. Each one of them has their own agendas and bias. Everyone should be left with their own play style choices, and be able to play how they want. Elite players and content creators should not dictate how others should be able to enjoy the game or any game.

Math don't have agendas and biases.

Maybe not but you certainly do

We're trying to explain it isn't the end of the world, that changes like these are common. Anyone trying to do end game content needs to deal with these changes if they wish to do end game content regularly, and the math is the underlying foundation of how things work and how builds capable of doing end game content are built off of. A mild nerf to a single buff, and a change to one gear set doesn't destroy the game for end game raiders, and the damage loss for all other pve content does not impact the ability of players to do that content. The mentality of 'this should never be allowed to be changed' is where other players would take issue, if that mentality bleeds into the group play, but no one is trying to single you out just to ruin your ability to enjoy the game.

And others are trying to explain.. it’s not about the numbers it’s about the mindset, the elitism the toxicity/ the hubris. And after this is done this won’t be the end of it, they will continue to complain and whine for more nerfs. Just wait and see.

I got nothing else to say.

spartaxoxo

jaws343 wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

The change to Empower is only a 6% nerf to Empower itself, and like a 2% nerf to heavy attack damage in a full DPS calculation. It's almost nothing for anyone doing low DPS and shaves less than 2K off for people parsing at the top end of the build. In its current nerfed state, it's a rounding error more than a nerf.

It's a 10% nerf to empower itself.

No, it is not. It is -10%. But -10% does not mean a 10% loss.

Right so a 10% nerf to empower itself which translates to a damage loss of around 6ish iirc.

CP5

isadoraisacat wrote: »

CP5 wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

CP5 wrote: »

While the lack of sets is true, when you consider how the game combines buffs, just looking at empower alone. Without empower the heavy attack is at 100% value, on live it is at 180%, and on pts its 170%, or just about 5.6% less total, but when you add any other buffs to the equation this amount becomes smaller and smaller. Looking at Skinny Cheeks video again, since I hope people can respect he knows how to look at these numbers, if you add in buffs from champion points and oakensoul buffs, on live heavy attacks reach 219% damage, and on pts it is 209%, which is a 4.57% loss in damage.

Then that gets diluted by any abilities, enchantments, or proc sets, making the loss smaller and smaller. That is not a major change, if empower was added last after all other damage calculations, then it would have a major impact, but it is only one brick in a wall, and all the other pieces make the change, again, small. So, how is a build being barred from content for a 4.5% damage loss?

I’m tired of people basing what they want to do on a game because of what “influencers” and “content creators” say. Each one of them has their own agendas and bias. Everyone should be left with their own play style choices, and be able to play how they want. Elite players and content creators should not dictate how others should be able to enjoy the game or any game.

Math don't have agendas and biases.

Maybe not but you certainly do

We're trying to explain it isn't the end of the world, that changes like these are common. Anyone trying to do end game content needs to deal with these changes if they wish to do end game content regularly, and the math is the underlying foundation of how things work and how builds capable of doing end game content are built off of. A mild nerf to a single buff, and a change to one gear set doesn't destroy the game for end game raiders, and the damage loss for all other pve content does not impact the ability of players to do that content. The mentality of 'this should never be allowed to be changed' is where other players would take issue, if that mentality bleeds into the group play, but no one is trying to single you out just to ruin your ability to enjoy the game.

And others are trying to explain.. it’s not about the numbers it’s about the mindset, the elitism the toxicity/ the hubris. And after this is done this won’t be the end of it, they will continue to complain and whine for more nerfs. Just wait and see.

I got nothing else to say.

And what of the mindset that 'heavy attack builds are fine and should never be changed'? Balance passes happen, if this is someone's first time seeing their build nerfed after entering end game content, it can be jarring, but for everyone who has already spent years there, this is common place. But it isn't common place for the nerf to be this small, and while storm master got nerfed, and more heavy attack based sets should be added, there are alternatives, and changing gear is another incredibly common thing.

It is standard for balance passes to happen, it is standard to need to change one's build to keep in end game content as the live sandbox changes, is it not hubris to think that 'well my build is perfectly balanced and should never be changed, and there is no impact on others by it existing'? Many builds got nerfed before, and as can be seen in several areas the ease of use the Oakensoul heavy attack build offers goes well beyond what an extra bit of dps can offset for many players, so for midrange players and for some specific pieces of content, it isn't an alternative choice, it's an overpowering one.

ZOS_Hadeostry

Greetings,

After removing some unnecessary back and forth from this thread, we would like everyone to keep posts on the subject at hand, civil, and constructive.

If there may be any questions in regards to the rules, please feel free to review them here

isadoraisacat

CP5 wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

CP5 wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

CP5 wrote: »

While the lack of sets is true, when you consider how the game combines buffs, just looking at empower alone. Without empower the heavy attack is at 100% value, on live it is at 180%, and on pts its 170%, or just about 5.6% less total, but when you add any other buffs to the equation this amount becomes smaller and smaller. Looking at Skinny Cheeks video again, since I hope people can respect he knows how to look at these numbers, if you add in buffs from champion points and oakensoul buffs, on live heavy attacks reach 219% damage, and on pts it is 209%, which is a 4.57% loss in damage.

Then that gets diluted by any abilities, enchantments, or proc sets, making the loss smaller and smaller. That is not a major change, if empower was added last after all other damage calculations, then it would have a major impact, but it is only one brick in a wall, and all the other pieces make the change, again, small. So, how is a build being barred from content for a 4.5% damage loss?

I’m tired of people basing what they want to do on a game because of what “influencers” and “content creators” say. Each one of them has their own agendas and bias. Everyone should be left with their own play style choices, and be able to play how they want. Elite players and content creators should not dictate how others should be able to enjoy the game or any game.

Math don't have agendas and biases.

Maybe not but you certainly do

We're trying to explain it isn't the end of the world, that changes like these are common. Anyone trying to do end game content needs to deal with these changes if they wish to do end game content regularly, and the math is the underlying foundation of how things work and how builds capable of doing end game content are built off of. A mild nerf to a single buff, and a change to one gear set doesn't destroy the game for end game raiders, and the damage loss for all other pve content does not impact the ability of players to do that content. The mentality of 'this should never be allowed to be changed' is where other players would take issue, if that mentality bleeds into the group play, but no one is trying to single you out just to ruin your ability to enjoy the game.

And others are trying to explain.. it’s not about the numbers it’s about the mindset, the elitism the toxicity/ the hubris. And after this is done this won’t be the end of it, they will continue to complain and whine for more nerfs. Just wait and see.

I got nothing else to say.

And what of the mindset that 'heavy attack builds are fine and should never be changed'? Balance passes happen, if this is someone's first time seeing their build nerfed after entering end game content, it can be jarring, but for everyone who has already spent years there, this is common place. But it isn't common place for the nerf to be this small, and while storm master got nerfed, and more heavy attack based sets should be added, there are alternatives, and changing gear is another incredibly common thing.

It is standard for balance passes to happen, it is standard to need to change one's build to keep in end game content as the live sandbox changes, is it not hubris to think that 'well my build is perfectly balanced and should never be changed, and there is no impact on others by it existing'? Many builds got nerfed before, and as can be seen in several areas the ease of use the Oakensoul heavy attack build offers goes well beyond what an extra bit of dps can offset for many players, so for midrange players and for some specific pieces of content, it isn't an alternative choice, it's an overpowering one.

I consider myself a “mid range”
Player and I didn’t gain any real extra boost to dps.
My only loss prior was due to physical hand pain where I had to stop pressing buttons. If not for that issue my dps would be about the same as it is with the HA build.

Many of us are not hitting record breaking numbers you are comparing content creators / and elite high end 2 bar players hitting 100 -+ dps
With 2 bar builds with maxed out gear pushing this build further than the average player who likely won’t ever pass 30k on a 3 mill
Dummy with the build.

“Balance” appears to some to mean “changes that benefit the elite” these days.

As long as this game continues to make rhythm based finger waltz the defacto combat system.. the less players will stick around, who give the game a shot.

CP5

isadoraisacat wrote: »

CP5 wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

CP5 wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

CP5 wrote: »

While the lack of sets is true, when you consider how the game combines buffs, just looking at empower alone. Without empower the heavy attack is at 100% value, on live it is at 180%, and on pts its 170%, or just about 5.6% less total, but when you add any other buffs to the equation this amount becomes smaller and smaller. Looking at Skinny Cheeks video again, since I hope people can respect he knows how to look at these numbers, if you add in buffs from champion points and oakensoul buffs, on live heavy attacks reach 219% damage, and on pts it is 209%, which is a 4.57% loss in damage.

Then that gets diluted by any abilities, enchantments, or proc sets, making the loss smaller and smaller. That is not a major change, if empower was added last after all other damage calculations, then it would have a major impact, but it is only one brick in a wall, and all the other pieces make the change, again, small. So, how is a build being barred from content for a 4.5% damage loss?

I’m tired of people basing what they want to do on a game because of what “influencers” and “content creators” say. Each one of them has their own agendas and bias. Everyone should be left with their own play style choices, and be able to play how they want. Elite players and content creators should not dictate how others should be able to enjoy the game or any game.

Math don't have agendas and biases.

Maybe not but you certainly do

We're trying to explain it isn't the end of the world, that changes like these are common. Anyone trying to do end game content needs to deal with these changes if they wish to do end game content regularly, and the math is the underlying foundation of how things work and how builds capable of doing end game content are built off of. A mild nerf to a single buff, and a change to one gear set doesn't destroy the game for end game raiders, and the damage loss for all other pve content does not impact the ability of players to do that content. The mentality of 'this should never be allowed to be changed' is where other players would take issue, if that mentality bleeds into the group play, but no one is trying to single you out just to ruin your ability to enjoy the game.

And others are trying to explain.. it’s not about the numbers it’s about the mindset, the elitism the toxicity/ the hubris. And after this is done this won’t be the end of it, they will continue to complain and whine for more nerfs. Just wait and see.

I got nothing else to say.

And what of the mindset that 'heavy attack builds are fine and should never be changed'? Balance passes happen, if this is someone's first time seeing their build nerfed after entering end game content, it can be jarring, but for everyone who has already spent years there, this is common place. But it isn't common place for the nerf to be this small, and while storm master got nerfed, and more heavy attack based sets should be added, there are alternatives, and changing gear is another incredibly common thing.

It is standard for balance passes to happen, it is standard to need to change one's build to keep in end game content as the live sandbox changes, is it not hubris to think that 'well my build is perfectly balanced and should never be changed, and there is no impact on others by it existing'? Many builds got nerfed before, and as can be seen in several areas the ease of use the Oakensoul heavy attack build offers goes well beyond what an extra bit of dps can offset for many players, so for midrange players and for some specific pieces of content, it isn't an alternative choice, it's an overpowering one.

I consider myself a “mid range”
Player and I didn’t gain any real extra boost to dps.
My only loss prior was due to physical hand pain where I had to stop pressing buttons. If not for that issue my dps would be about the same as it is with the HA build.

Many of us are not hitting record breaking numbers you are comparing content creators / and elite high end 2 bar players hitting 100 -+ dps
With 2 bar builds with maxed out gear pushing this build further than the average player who likely won’t ever pass 30k on a 3 mill
Dummy with the build.

“Balance” appears to some to mean “changes that benefit the elite” these days.

As long as this game continues to make rhythm based finger waltz the defacto combat system.. the less players will stick around, who give the game a shot.

How else is the game supposed to play? It's an MMO, you have ability bars, small ability bars considering all other MMO's, and you 'finger waltz' over your dots as needed, then press another one to fill out the time between refreshing skills. Do you expect them to rewrite ESO's combat to be like the single player Elder Scrolls games, being a very simplistic hack and slash? Because otherwise, using multiple abilities, each accessed with separate buttons, will continue to be the norm, and it is a style of gameplay many enjoy. Balance happens, and if you push end game content you will need to account for balance passes like everyone else, and if you aren't doing end game content then the builds are more than enough to clear content.

isadoraisacat

CP5 wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

CP5 wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

CP5 wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

CP5 wrote: »

While the lack of sets is true, when you consider how the game combines buffs, just looking at empower alone. Without empower the heavy attack is at 100% value, on live it is at 180%, and on pts its 170%, or just about 5.6% less total, but when you add any other buffs to the equation this amount becomes smaller and smaller. Looking at Skinny Cheeks video again, since I hope people can respect he knows how to look at these numbers, if you add in buffs from champion points and oakensoul buffs, on live heavy attacks reach 219% damage, and on pts it is 209%, which is a 4.57% loss in damage.

Then that gets diluted by any abilities, enchantments, or proc sets, making the loss smaller and smaller. That is not a major change, if empower was added last after all other damage calculations, then it would have a major impact, but it is only one brick in a wall, and all the other pieces make the change, again, small. So, how is a build being barred from content for a 4.5% damage loss?

I’m tired of people basing what they want to do on a game because of what “influencers” and “content creators” say. Each one of them has their own agendas and bias. Everyone should be left with their own play style choices, and be able to play how they want. Elite players and content creators should not dictate how others should be able to enjoy the game or any game.

Math don't have agendas and biases.

Maybe not but you certainly do

We're trying to explain it isn't the end of the world, that changes like these are common. Anyone trying to do end game content needs to deal with these changes if they wish to do end game content regularly, and the math is the underlying foundation of how things work and how builds capable of doing end game content are built off of. A mild nerf to a single buff, and a change to one gear set doesn't destroy the game for end game raiders, and the damage loss for all other pve content does not impact the ability of players to do that content. The mentality of 'this should never be allowed to be changed' is where other players would take issue, if that mentality bleeds into the group play, but no one is trying to single you out just to ruin your ability to enjoy the game.

And others are trying to explain.. it’s not about the numbers it’s about the mindset, the elitism the toxicity/ the hubris. And after this is done this won’t be the end of it, they will continue to complain and whine for more nerfs. Just wait and see.

I got nothing else to say.

And what of the mindset that 'heavy attack builds are fine and should never be changed'? Balance passes happen, if this is someone's first time seeing their build nerfed after entering end game content, it can be jarring, but for everyone who has already spent years there, this is common place. But it isn't common place for the nerf to be this small, and while storm master got nerfed, and more heavy attack based sets should be added, there are alternatives, and changing gear is another incredibly common thing.

It is standard for balance passes to happen, it is standard to need to change one's build to keep in end game content as the live sandbox changes, is it not hubris to think that 'well my build is perfectly balanced and should never be changed, and there is no impact on others by it existing'? Many builds got nerfed before, and as can be seen in several areas the ease of use the Oakensoul heavy attack build offers goes well beyond what an extra bit of dps can offset for many players, so for midrange players and for some specific pieces of content, it isn't an alternative choice, it's an overpowering one.

I consider myself a “mid range”
Player and I didn’t gain any real extra boost to dps.
My only loss prior was due to physical hand pain where I had to stop pressing buttons. If not for that issue my dps would be about the same as it is with the HA build.

Many of us are not hitting record breaking numbers you are comparing content creators / and elite high end 2 bar players hitting 100 -+ dps
With 2 bar builds with maxed out gear pushing this build further than the average player who likely won’t ever pass 30k on a 3 mill
Dummy with the build.

“Balance” appears to some to mean “changes that benefit the elite” these days.

As long as this game continues to make rhythm based finger waltz the defacto combat system.. the less players will stick around, who give the game a shot.

How else is the game supposed to play? It's an MMO, you have ability bars, small ability bars considering all other MMO's, and you 'finger waltz' over your dots as needed, then press another one to fill out the time between refreshing skills. Do you expect them to rewrite ESO's combat to be like the single player Elder Scrolls games, being a very simplistic hack and slash? Because otherwise, using multiple abilities, each accessed with separate buttons, will continue to be the norm, and it is a style of gameplay many enjoy. Balance happens, and if you push end game content you will need to account for balance passes like everyone else, and if you aren't doing end game content then the builds are more than enough to clear content.

Yeah so animation canceling I mean “weaving” isn’t in most MMOs. This style of combat actually Isn’t typical of mmo. Second of all it’s a bug that was never fixed. That’s what I mean by finger waltz the guitar hero click click rhythm based combat that is way to far out from real elder scrolls combat.

This isn’t an esport it’s still an elder scrolls game, this mindset goes completely against the freedom of play style the devs profess and the series has held on to since arena.

CP5

isadoraisacat wrote: »

CP5 wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

CP5 wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

CP5 wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

CP5 wrote: »

While the lack of sets is true, when you consider how the game combines buffs, just looking at empower alone. Without empower the heavy attack is at 100% value, on live it is at 180%, and on pts its 170%, or just about 5.6% less total, but when you add any other buffs to the equation this amount becomes smaller and smaller. Looking at Skinny Cheeks video again, since I hope people can respect he knows how to look at these numbers, if you add in buffs from champion points and oakensoul buffs, on live heavy attacks reach 219% damage, and on pts it is 209%, which is a 4.57% loss in damage.

Then that gets diluted by any abilities, enchantments, or proc sets, making the loss smaller and smaller. That is not a major change, if empower was added last after all other damage calculations, then it would have a major impact, but it is only one brick in a wall, and all the other pieces make the change, again, small. So, how is a build being barred from content for a 4.5% damage loss?

I’m tired of people basing what they want to do on a game because of what “influencers” and “content creators” say. Each one of them has their own agendas and bias. Everyone should be left with their own play style choices, and be able to play how they want. Elite players and content creators should not dictate how others should be able to enjoy the game or any game.

Math don't have agendas and biases.

Maybe not but you certainly do

We're trying to explain it isn't the end of the world, that changes like these are common. Anyone trying to do end game content needs to deal with these changes if they wish to do end game content regularly, and the math is the underlying foundation of how things work and how builds capable of doing end game content are built off of. A mild nerf to a single buff, and a change to one gear set doesn't destroy the game for end game raiders, and the damage loss for all other pve content does not impact the ability of players to do that content. The mentality of 'this should never be allowed to be changed' is where other players would take issue, if that mentality bleeds into the group play, but no one is trying to single you out just to ruin your ability to enjoy the game.

And others are trying to explain.. it’s not about the numbers it’s about the mindset, the elitism the toxicity/ the hubris. And after this is done this won’t be the end of it, they will continue to complain and whine for more nerfs. Just wait and see.

I got nothing else to say.

And what of the mindset that 'heavy attack builds are fine and should never be changed'? Balance passes happen, if this is someone's first time seeing their build nerfed after entering end game content, it can be jarring, but for everyone who has already spent years there, this is common place. But it isn't common place for the nerf to be this small, and while storm master got nerfed, and more heavy attack based sets should be added, there are alternatives, and changing gear is another incredibly common thing.

It is standard for balance passes to happen, it is standard to need to change one's build to keep in end game content as the live sandbox changes, is it not hubris to think that 'well my build is perfectly balanced and should never be changed, and there is no impact on others by it existing'? Many builds got nerfed before, and as can be seen in several areas the ease of use the Oakensoul heavy attack build offers goes well beyond what an extra bit of dps can offset for many players, so for midrange players and for some specific pieces of content, it isn't an alternative choice, it's an overpowering one.

I consider myself a “mid range”
Player and I didn’t gain any real extra boost to dps.
My only loss prior was due to physical hand pain where I had to stop pressing buttons. If not for that issue my dps would be about the same as it is with the HA build.

Many of us are not hitting record breaking numbers you are comparing content creators / and elite high end 2 bar players hitting 100 -+ dps
With 2 bar builds with maxed out gear pushing this build further than the average player who likely won’t ever pass 30k on a 3 mill
Dummy with the build.

“Balance” appears to some to mean “changes that benefit the elite” these days.

As long as this game continues to make rhythm based finger waltz the defacto combat system.. the less players will stick around, who give the game a shot.

How else is the game supposed to play? It's an MMO, you have ability bars, small ability bars considering all other MMO's, and you 'finger waltz' over your dots as needed, then press another one to fill out the time between refreshing skills. Do you expect them to rewrite ESO's combat to be like the single player Elder Scrolls games, being a very simplistic hack and slash? Because otherwise, using multiple abilities, each accessed with separate buttons, will continue to be the norm, and it is a style of gameplay many enjoy. Balance happens, and if you push end game content you will need to account for balance passes like everyone else, and if you aren't doing end game content then the builds are more than enough to clear content.

Yeah so animation canceling I mean “weaving” isn’t in most MMOs. This style of combat actually Isn’t typical of mmo. Second of all it’s a bug that was never fixed. That’s what I mean by finger waltz the guitar hero click click rhythm based combat that is way to far out from real elder scrolls combat.

This isn’t an esport it’s still an elder scrolls game, this mindset goes completely against the freedom of play style the devs profess and the series has held on to since arena.

If you don't like animation canceling, then the alternative is attack commitment. Meaning you wouldn't be able to cancel the animation of your channeled heavy attack, and would have to wait for the ability to cast in full before doing anything else, including blocking or dodging. That is the reason why it exist, so that players can respond quickly to faster combat than any single player elder scrolls game offers. This isn't Morrowind, you aren't standing in an npcs face trading blows with them for a half hour trying to land a single attack.

ZOS_Hadeostry

As we've had to remove a few non-constructive comments due to baiting, please remember that while it’s all right to disagree or even debate with each other, provoking conflict, baiting, inciting, mocking, etc. is never acceptable in the official The Elder Scrolls Online community.

While we completely understand everyone has their own opinions, thoughts, feelings and even frustrations, we want the forums to be a civil and constructive platform for the game and its community as a whole.

FrancisCrawford

jaws343 wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

CP5 wrote: »

As for this discussion in general, people building around Oakensoul are now 'meta gamers,' building their characters around the 'most effective tactic available,' and it changes. Everyone for years has been adapting to changes, and in any game that gets updated over time these happen. Everyone who is invested in higher end content has to adapt to each patch as they come out, and now that people who otherwise may have never touched higher end content are there, now the changes in the patch notes are much more relevant, and they have to learn this process as well.

While this is definitely a fair point, especially in regard to the storm master set or whatever's its name is, I'd like to point out one thing. They aren't just changing a set; they have changed the empower buff itself. Any changes to major/minor buffs are met with the same feedback (and rightfully so) as we're seeing heavy attack builds here. It's much, much harder to adapt to a change to the buffs themselves than to changes to a set.

In addition, there are fewer set options for heavy attack builds to begin with. ZOS has only recently stated they want this to be alternative build choice for this kind of content. So, HA users are rightfully on edge that the end goal here isn't just to reign in damage a little but remove the ability for HA users to participate in certain content at all. It is the space that heavy attack builds have occupied for the majority of the game's lifespan. And it doesn't help that there are certainly a vocal group of users that want that to be end goal as well. Time will tell, I suppose.

The change to Empower is only a 6% nerf to Empower itself, and like a 2% nerf to heavy attack damage in a full DPS calculation. It's almost nothing for anyone doing low DPS and shaves less than 2K off for people parsing at the top end of the build. In its current nerfed state, it's a rounding error more than a nerf.

I don't quite understand that arithmetic.

I'd think the figure for "damage" multiplies with everything else, so reducing it by "10%" from a little over "200%" is a nerf in the range of 5% to heavy attack damage, and hence maybe 3 1/2% to damage overall. Trashing the Storm Master set and causing it to be replaced by the closest substitute, Undaunted Infiltrator, might hit overall DPS by 2%+.

That said, if we estimate a 5%ish nerf to overall DPS, it's clear that what people are or should be getting upset about is not that nerf alone. Rather, it's that there are so many cries for doing more serious damage to the build in future nerfings.