Heavy attack builds will be excluded from new trial on vet well done zos ;)

Wolfkeks

Lena_HJ wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

I no longer care if they nerf the trials themselves.

Correct me if I am wrong, but didn't they do that already in U35?

They nerfed the health of the bosses by 10% in Trials and Dungeons got U35 if I remember correctly

nokturnihs

CoronHR wrote: »

the nerf's not that big, it'll still be viable for vet content.

also, i agree that HA builds shouldn't perform equally to or outperform LA builds that use complicated rotations and bar-swapping

Why? I've seen plenty of LA builds using other mythics? Also HA builds are about the only reason people still play sorc. Sorc has been a [Snip] for a long time and oakensorcs just barely pulled them out of the dusty cobwebs of the past...

The mentality behind that - they shouldn't perform as well is messed up. Any mythic use should underperform a traditional 2 bar build by that logic. The point of the mythic was to make otherwise unviable content viable for people with difficulty handling those rotations due to coordination, disability or timing issues. It should absolutely perform equally. You're sacrificing a lot of options to make that exchange. We don't need crunchier mechanics for the sake of difficulty.. difficulty should be from the content.

[Snip]

[Edited for baiting and basing]

PrincessOfThieves

nokturnihs wrote: »

CoronHR wrote: »

the nerf's not that big, it'll still be viable for vet content.

also, i agree that HA builds shouldn't perform equally to or outperform LA builds that use complicated rotations and bar-swapping

Why? I've seen plenty of LA builds using other mythics? Also HA builds are about the only reason people still play sorc. Sorc has been a [Snip] for a long time and oakensorcs just barely pulled them out of the dusty cobwebs of the past...

The mentality behind that - they shouldn't perform as well is messed up. Any mythic use should underperform a traditional 2 bar build by that logic. The point of the mythic was to make otherwise unviable content viable for people with difficulty handling those rotations due to coordination, disability or timing issues. It should absolutely perform equally. You're sacrificing a lot of options to make that exchange. We don't need crunchier mechanics for the sake of difficulty.. difficulty should be from the content.

[Snip].

It should not perform equally because then there's no reason to use a traditional build anymore because with Oaken you get a bunch of other boons, the dps is just a cherry on top.
Heavy attack builds should absolutely be able to do vet content, but to clear vets you only need like 60k, maybe a little bit more. But they shouldn't compete in the sweatiest content like trifectas and latest trial hms, because it is unfair for people who invest a lot of time playing traditional builds.
There IS an issue with vet content being too hard for an average player, but they should just stop balancing it around people who spend hundreds of hours parsing and practicing. If all nonhm vets were designed for lower dps, it would solve most of these issues.
Selling workarounds in this situation is too close to pay to win, and also it goes against the game's motto, "play as you want". I find it kinda funny how many anti-meta people jumped onto strict meta bandwagon... Oakensorc only helps people who are willing to play this very strict build, and casuals with other classes/playstyles are left in the mud. That's not accessibity.

[Edited quote]

peacenote

spartaxoxo wrote: »

The idea these builds won't be excluded is extremely false. It's practically gaslighting. Most trials groups don't take people into trials under a DPS threshold and the people that do gatekeep the harder stuff like HM. Regardless if that hm standard os years old and perfectly doable with far less DPS than now. All the complaints about Oakensoul being able to do vcr shows that.

The title of this thread is celebrating Oakensoul players being gatekept out of content. All of the nerfs were specifically called for so they could be gatekeeped out of content. All of the complaints were about gatekeeping out of content.

And a 20k loss of DPS is massive. The same groups that claim this is small also claim that losing a tenth of that to the wrong race is massive. Entire builds were destroyed by far less.

There are a ton of players that are going to be excluded from things they are able to do and they understand the mechs to do. The Oakensoul build has proven that the only thing keeping those people from accomplishing those dungeons was, in fact, damage. That the trial mechs themselves, while difficult, were something they were perfectly capable of handling. The exclusion isn't about being able to handle mechs, it's about playing the way people want you to play.

If they won't allow options like these to decrease the gap. I no longer care if they nerf the trials themselves.

I agree with most of this, have always been a supporter of heavy attack builds, and used them long before Oakensoul. I don't really see why the build had to be nerfed, but then again, I often don't agree with the changes/nerfs introduced. I STILL miss the old Breath of Life and old Healing Springs. . For the sake of community harmony I truly wish ZOS had just left the HA build balance alone because any change this soon was bound to be a lightning rod with theories about the "real" reasons and negative comments about people buying the expansion and end gamers. Oh look.... here we are.

That said, I don't agree that the rise of Oakensoul proves that "a ton" of players were great with mechanics and were held back only by being unable to light attack well previously. In many cases this was just a more acceptable way to be carried. Which, as a non-gatekeeper, is also fine with me. Players have been carried and will continue to be carried in games as long as group content exists. Sometimes I'm sure over the years that player has been me, haha. As long as the group clears, sometimes they are playing a very important role... filling the minimum requirement for a spot so the group will do the run!

The DPS players that keep groups from clearing are the ones with low damage AND struggle with mechs. If you can do higher damage but make mistake with mechanics, there are always a few slots where you can still be valuable. Trial lead just won't have you run in Maw or do portals or whatever.

I say this as someone who specifically liked to bring my oakensorc to content that I hadn't yet cleared, because healing spots are so rare, so I could focus on actually seeing and therefore LEARNING mechs in a DPS spot without having to worry about my rotation. It was great. In easier content, I find the build boring with only one bar.

But I still maintain that being an excellent end game player requires understanding builds, mechanics, how to play multiple roles, etc. Not everyone has to be a top notch player to do end game content, and in fact if that were the case, very few groups would fill. But the people with Oakensoul builds who were allowed in and clearing trials were the same mix of players we always have... some great at learning mechs, some ok, and some who really struggled and were rezzed a lot but now at least could parse with the rest and bring value for DPS checks. It takes a village. Which, as far as I'm concerned, was a stronger village after Oakensoul builds than before it.

CameraBeardThePirate

HA builds will not be excluded. They're still breaking 90k dps on PTS. That's well above any cutoff for any content.



Note - this is on a Warden. Sorc would break 90k. Medium Armor passives are also bugged on PTS - this Warden parse wouldve broken 90k with those passives.

ApoAlaia

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

HA builds will not be excluded. They're still breaking 90k dps on PTS. That's well above any cutoff for any content.



Note - this is on a Warden. Sorc would break 90k. Medium Armor passives are also bugged on PTS - this Warden parse wouldve broken 90k with those passives.

Are they 'broken broken' or is it a UI glitch? (as in 'the numbers are not showing in the UI but the passive is actually working')

I have heard conflicting reports on this, some say is the former, other the latter, someone else says that resetting the passives gets them working but you lose them again if you zone... I is very confoose.

CameraBeardThePirate

ApoAlaia wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

HA builds will not be excluded. They're still breaking 90k dps on PTS. That's well above any cutoff for any content.



Note - this is on a Warden. Sorc would break 90k. Medium Armor passives are also bugged on PTS - this Warden parse wouldve broken 90k with those passives.

Are they 'broken broken' or is it a UI glitch? (as in 'the numbers are not showing in the UI but the passive is actually working')

I have heard conflicting reports on this, some say is the former, other the latter, someone else says that resetting the passives gets them working but you lose them again if you zone... I is very confoose.

AFAIK they're broken broken, but either way, 90k dps post-nerf is still a phenomenal build

fizl101

ApoAlaia wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

HA builds will not be excluded. They're still breaking 90k dps on PTS. That's well above any cutoff for any content.



Note - this is on a Warden. Sorc would break 90k. Medium Armor passives are also bugged on PTS - this Warden parse wouldve broken 90k with those passives.

Are they 'broken broken' or is it a UI glitch? (as in 'the numbers are not showing in the UI but the passive is actually working')

I have heard conflicting reports on this, some say is the former, other the latter, someone else says that resetting the passives gets them working but you lose them again if you zone... I is very confoose.

I know some at least are broken broken, so I am assuming the others are - for example the passive to reduce ulti cost on a sorc doesn't work, you can't use your storm atro until you hit the full cost

ApoAlaia

Thanks guys, if the class passives are 'broken broken' I am going to go out on a limb and presume that the armour passives are too.

That is a good chunk of damage taken off parses if one is running medium.

CameraBeardThePirate

ApoAlaia wrote: »

Thanks guys, if the class passives are 'broken broken' I am going to go out on a limb and presume that the armour passives are too.

That is a good chunk of damage taken off parses if one is running medium.

No, thank you for being nice about the whole thing and not coming up with some other attack like a lot of the people in these discussions the past few days.

ApoAlaia

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

ApoAlaia wrote: »

Thanks guys, if the class passives are 'broken broken' I am going to go out on a limb and presume that the armour passives are too.

That is a good chunk of damage taken off parses if one is running medium.

No, thank you for being nice about the whole thing and not coming up with some other attack like a lot of the people in these discussions the past few days.

I did... overreact a little bit when I first saw the adjustments to Storm Master - and I still think they are excessively severe - but in fairness if they didn't want us to use HA builds they could have just hammered the whole thing into oblivion.

Both with the releases of U17 and more so with U35 the dev team has shown quite clearly that they are prepared to go ahead with wildly unpopular changes no matter what.

Besides, you are qualifying your opinion with numbers. I'm not sure I could do much more beyond saying 'I don't like what you are showing me '

AinSoph

Oakensoul users finally experience what people who invest a lot in the combat in this game deal with nearly every patch the thread. Anyways, just like them you learn to adapt.

Galeriano

fizl101 wrote: »

ApoAlaia wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

HA builds will not be excluded. They're still breaking 90k dps on PTS. That's well above any cutoff for any content.



Note - this is on a Warden. Sorc would break 90k. Medium Armor passives are also bugged on PTS - this Warden parse wouldve broken 90k with those passives.

Are they 'broken broken' or is it a UI glitch? (as in 'the numbers are not showing in the UI but the passive is actually working')

I have heard conflicting reports on this, some say is the former, other the latter, someone else says that resetting the passives gets them working but you lose them again if you zone... I is very confoose.

I know some at least are broken broken, so I am assuming the others are - for example the passive to reduce ulti cost on a sorc doesn't work, you can't use your storm atro until you hit the full cost

You can fix that particular one by reseting You skills and spending skill points into passive again.

endorphinsplox

Ah yes, because 2 minute IR clears is so healthy for game balance. Mhm.

Raammzzaa

endorphinsplox wrote: »

Ah yes, because 2 minute IR clears is so healthy for game balance. Mhm.

The world record is around that time and wasn’t done using HA builds.

What is the fastest time that anyone has seen using a HA comp? It seems like most are a bit under 10 min, but I wasn’t intentionally keeping track.

INM

Raammzzaa wrote: »

What is the fastest time that anyone has seen using a HA comp? It seems like most are a bit under 10 min, but I wasn’t intentionally keeping track.

https://www.esologs.com/reports/H7mP8trqyKpGXTgA#fight=14&type=summary
3:14.

ZOS_Volpe

Greetings all,

After removing and editing a handful of baiting and bashing posts, we must remind everyone that all should be kept civil, constructive, and within the guidelines of the rules that we have in place. If there may be any questions in regards to the rules, please feel free to take a few moments to review them here.

Thank you for your understanding.

Galeriano

Raammzzaa wrote: »

endorphinsplox wrote: »

Ah yes, because 2 minute IR clears is so healthy for game balance. Mhm.

The world record is around that time and wasn’t done using HA builds.

What is the fastest time that anyone has seen using a HA comp? It seems like most are a bit under 10 min, but I wasn’t intentionally keeping track.

I think fastest HA IR is around 3 minutes. Most of the groups was not scorepushing though but rather just doing it for fun so with perfect optimisation and a bit of practice going uder 3 minutes should be possible.

Tradewind

spartaxoxo wrote: »

The idea these builds won't be excluded is extremely false. It's practically gaslighting. Most trials groups don't take people into trials under a DPS threshold and the people that do gatekeep the harder stuff like HM. Regardless if that hm standard os years old and perfectly doable with far less DPS than now. All the complaints about Oakensoul being able to do vcr shows that.

The title of this thread is celebrating Oakensoul players being gatekept out of content. All of the nerfs were specifically called for so they could be gatekeeped out of content. All of the complaints were about gatekeeping out of content.

And a 20k loss of DPS is massive. The same groups that claim this is small also claim that losing a tenth of that to the wrong race is massive. Entire builds were destroyed by far less.

There are a ton of players that are going to be excluded from things they are able to do and they understand the mechs to do. The Oakensoul build has proven that the only thing keeping those people from accomplishing those dungeons was, in fact, damage. That the trial mechs themselves, while difficult, were something they were perfectly capable of handling. The exclusion isn't about being able to handle mechs, it's about playing the way people want you to play.

If they won't allow options like these to decrease the gap. I no longer care if they nerf the trials themselves.

HA players have a difficult time finding groups for harder content in ESO. This is so frustrating for players who prefer this playstyle, and it's not uncommon for them to be excluded from group activities.
If Zenimax nerf the HA build, will make it even harder for these players to find acceptance in groups.

INM

Tradewind wrote: »

HA players have a difficult time finding groups for harder content in ESO. This is so frustrating for players who prefer this playstyle, and it's not uncommon for them to be excluded from group activities.
If Zenimax nerf the HA build, will make it even harder for these players to find acceptance in groups.

So many complaints about gatekeeping, but with the amount of HA players there shouldn't be any issues with forming your own group, right?

Tradewind

INM wrote: »

Tradewind wrote: »

HA players have a difficult time finding groups for harder content in ESO. This is so frustrating for players who prefer this playstyle, and it's not uncommon for them to be excluded from group activities.
If Zenimax nerf the HA build, will make it even harder for these players to find acceptance in groups.

So many complaints about gatekeeping, but with the amount of HA players there shouldn't be any issues with forming your own group, right?

If you enjoy playing with a 2-bar and LA weaving playstyle, or if you prefer playing with a 2-bar and HA playstyle, or if you use Oakensoul, you are more than welcome to play with me. I believe that everyone should be able to enjoy the game in their own way, and I will never kick you out or reject you simply because of your preferred playstyle.

If you are new to the game or unsure of what to do, don't worry! I am happy to explain the game mechanics and help you get started. Once you feel comfortable, you are welcome to join us.

It is not about finding someone who will accept me, but about finding someone who will play the game fairly and not force others to use exploits or bugs.

Gadamlub14_ESO

for those complaining, would you rather have this uncharacteristically gentle bap from ZoS with the nerf bat, Or the plaguebreak treatment where one guy cheesing a single boss in one specific dungeon gets the entire set removed from PVE use?

ApoAlaia

Gadamlub14_ESO wrote: »

for those complaining, would you rather have this uncharacteristically gentle bap from ZoS with the nerf bat, Or the plaguebreak treatment where one guy cheesing a single boss in one specific dungeon gets the entire set removed from PVE use?

IDK about plaguebreak, would you rather have gotten the Mist Form treatment and get an entire skill removed from PvE instead? or what was for years the best spammable in the game turned into a third class skill that is also an affront to the senses?

Obvious 'I one you up' arguments aside, and forgive me for the OT, but what has happened with plaguebreak is pretty wild.

It is (was, if they don't reconsider?) a nice set for my DK to use in trash pulls. Not the only set, probably not the best set (for this scenario) but still, easy enough to source and got the job done in a somewhat amusing manner.

Sad.

Galeriano

Tradewind wrote: »

INM wrote: »

Tradewind wrote: »

HA players have a difficult time finding groups for harder content in ESO. This is so frustrating for players who prefer this playstyle, and it's not uncommon for them to be excluded from group activities.
If Zenimax nerf the HA build, will make it even harder for these players to find acceptance in groups.

So many complaints about gatekeeping, but with the amount of HA players there shouldn't be any issues with forming your own group, right?

If you enjoy playing with a 2-bar and LA weaving playstyle, or if you prefer playing with a 2-bar and HA playstyle, or if you use Oakensoul, you are more than welcome to play with me. I believe that everyone should be able to enjoy the game in their own way, and I will never kick you out or reject you simply because of your preferred playstyle.

If you are new to the game or unsure of what to do, don't worry! I am happy to explain the game mechanics and help you get started. Once you feel comfortable, you are welcome to join us.

It is not about finding someone who will accept me, but about finding someone who will play the game fairly and not force others to use exploits or bugs.

I think the person You were responding to were suggesting that since there is so many heavy attack players right now You should find "someone who will play the game fairly and not force others to use exploits or bugs" pretty easily.

People complain about gatekeeping but with the levels of DPS that heavy attack setups have right now and with number of heavy attack users there is literally nothing keeping them from doing content on their own so what's the issue excatly? This is really not adding up.

INM

Galeriano wrote: »

I think the person You were responding to were suggesting that since there is so many heavy attack players right now You should find "someone who will play the game fairly and not force others to use exploits or bugs" pretty easily.

People complain about gatekeeping but with the levels of DPS that heavy attack setups have right now and with number of heavy attack users there is literally nothing keeping them from doing content on their own so what's the issue excatly? This is really not adding up.

That's precisely what I meant, sorry if I wasn't clear enough, my English is still sloppy sometimes. But I'm sure that it is impossible to gatekeep such a big group in the game, where the only requirement is to find 11 fellow minded people to run content. It's not like real life where you can be kept out of something based on your bank account or something like that.

Chase0351

Auldwulfe wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

Hyperdeathstalker wrote: »

The upcoming changes to empower and storm master nerf will make it much tougher to achieve high dps numbers results in exclusion from upcoming vet trial. ZOS why do this ? I hope light attack been nerfed also so its fair.

Take note heavy attack users new chapter doesnt want you.

Sure could run noble duelist but thats close range resulting in less appeal, will be interesting to see if you can even pull above 80k.

COME TO NECROM BUT DONT BRING YOUR OAKENSOUL RING

30K is more than enough to run almost any vet content dungeons and trials including hard mode. You just have to pay more attention to mechanics.

Honestly, you can do a heavy attack build without Oakensoul, and pay less attention to mechanics..... one button, and same damage range.... you do lose the aegis, and free ultimate regen.... but that isn't all that necessary....
I can stand in stupid, with it, which I can't with Oakensoul......

Auldwulfe

This. This right here is why many other players don’t agree with the current state of ha builds or their existence in general. And it’s mostly veteran players taking advantage of this, not “inaccessible, handicaped, disabled” players and it’s not new players fresh off the streets as many of these exploiters would have us believe.

Where is the skill based gameplay at? It used to mean something when one cleared a vet arena, solo or grouped. Now it’s more like if your brand new you should be able to clear vet content. No. No you should not.

notsojuicy

not nerfed hard enough and they should have touched tri-focus passive, too...

- maybe even give empower back to LA, as some gear in the game became useless....

To be clear, i'm not against HA Attack Builds in general, i have some HA Setups myself for lazy hours.
But when i see newer players, which just went straight the Oaken HA Route then something is off imho....

I don't think HA 1 Bar "Hold-one-button" is healthy for the game in terms of a players journey / progression....

Accessibility? Wth...

Learning Rotation, learning to do dmg, learning to move and do dmg while moving in content should be a natural development/progression for a player to strive for harder content...

If you're lazy, you won't do the content - then it's not the game OR the game's accessibility,
it's simply "YOU" as player not willing to put in the work...

People just want shortcuts these days, HA Oaken builds give that and still will in Necrom....
The nerf isn't that huge, still more than enough damage for any vet trial in the game....

loveeso

Hyperdeathstalker wrote: »

The upcoming changes to empower and storm master nerf will make it much tougher to achieve high dps numbers results in exclusion from upcoming vet trial. ZOS why do this ? I hope light attack been nerfed also so its fair.

Take note heavy attack users new chapter doesnt want you.

Sure could run noble duelist but thats close range resulting in less appeal, will be interesting to see if you can even pull above 80k.

COME TO NECROM BUT DONT BRING YOUR OAKENSOUL RING

Yup. It's a nerf. Some numbers, parses and tables here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/631760/thoughts-of-a-random-guy-on-necrom-changes-to-ha-heavy-attack-builds-on-arcanist/p1