Should HoTs stack?

godchucknzilla

No

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

This is not a simple issue. You can also ask "Should my chosen heal do nothing if someone else on my random BG team has the same ability?" Single instance heals were problematic.

The devs had a good reason to make heals stack, and for years it did not cause any significant problems. What is different now? Damage too low (DoTs and burst nerfed)? Tank meta (strong sets and access to defensive buffs)? There is surely a better solution.

It doesn't do nothing bc it would refresh the duration. So there you did something and your higher healing stats would overwrite the other instance. This is just simple logic.

Maybe the DEVs can't find a way to do this overwriting of instances with a person's instance of a buff and stats , but to me it seems simple, when a new instance is applied it first clears the current instance simple.

Ragnarok0130

Yes

KingLewie_III wrote: »

Billium813 wrote: »

KingLewie_III wrote: »

@Billium813 What point are you trying to make? Vigor is widely used because it's accessible to everyone and one of the best HOTs in the game, and Resolving Vigor also gives Minor Resolve, which is valuable in PVP. When hybridization came around, Vigor received less of a nerf than Regeneration, and with it not being tied to a weapon skill line, became the obvious choice to be put on your skill bar.

My point is that ZOS can't get rid of heal stacking or Vigor. We, and ESO in general, are hopelessly dependent on it. Everything has been balanced for years on it. It's one of the pillars at this point and ZOS would have to remodel the entire house to remove that support beam.

... and it's a pity they've painted themselves into this corner.

You're acting as if this level of heal stacking is fundamental to the entire game, which isnt true. It is only present in open world PVP, as that's the only instance where more than 2 healers are present in a group at a time. For the umpteenth time, this change would have no effect to end game PVE, and if it doesn't affect those running the most difficult content the game has to offer, there's no logical explanation why anyone else would require it.

It would affect PVE specifically progression groups consisting of newer raiders. There are times when groups consisting of newer raiders I've run with in trials specifically requested several people to run vigor such as during execute in vCR in order to heal stack through boss AOE damage due to lower DPS numbers drawing out the fight. If the change is to only allow two instances of a specific heal to stack then that heal needs a buff to compensate for removal of the stacking in PVE. Healing already received a hefty nerf in U35 so I'd rather not have additional PVE healing nerfs when the devs seem to balance new trials based on the top of of the PVE end game scene. If they could use battle spirit to make these changes only effective n PVP then I'd see no issue.

The best course of action would be for ZoS to balance PVE and PVP separately so both sides of the end game coin can get the attention they deserve without adversely affecting the other due to conflicting needs.

Ragnarok0130

Yes

Billium813 wrote: »

My controversial take is that skills like Echoing Vigor are too strong, to the point where 2-3 can completely replace the Healer role. Heal stacking has a large part in making it that strong. But what can we do? If we remove heal stacking, some subpar groups are going to start to struggle with Vet content! Is that bad?

These are valid points, and as a trial healer I'd rather have less personal healing and more buffs to the healer role/build so healers are needed more in content which would likely address many of the PVP community's grievances with too much healing. The concerning part is that ZoS' "play how you want" mantra has made this a very tricky thing to address since the lines between roles have been unnecessarily blurred.

i11ionward

No

Ragnarok0130 wrote: »

It would affect PVE specifically progression groups consisting of newer raiders. There are times when groups consisting of newer raiders I've run with in trials specifically requested several people to run vigor such as during execute in vCR in order to heal stack through boss AOE damage due to lower DPS numbers drawing out the fight.

In my opinion, a healer should be a healer, DD should be DD, etc. When several damage dealers take vigor it's not a weak group, it's bad game design. It turns out that dd had to abandon the DPS skill for the sake of the HEAL skill, that is, the overall DPS of the group decreased, but the overall HPS of the group increased. Damn it, you could just as well change DD for a healer. Excuse me, but all this convinces me that stacking HoTs in PVE is also wrong.

Amottica

It is rather simple. HoTs and DoTs should follow the same rules.

Rogue_WolfESO

Yes

The picture describes exactly why it's so hard to kill groups like Tyr who spend all raid running around Faregryl.

NotTaylorSwift

Yes

Yall dont get how hard hot stacking keeps YOU pugs alive also. Sieging keeps vs counter siege would be near impossible if you werent being kept alive by passive hots from random players. Pls bfr.

ForumBully

No

NotTaylorSwift wrote: »

Yall dont get how hard hot stacking keeps YOU pugs alive also. Sieging keeps vs counter siege would be near impossible if you werent being kept alive by passive hots from random players. Pls bfr.

[snip] a bad mechanic is a bad mechanic no matter who uses it. No need for any us versus them stuff.

I'm not even sure what your complaint here is...things surviving too well due to stacked healing is precisely the complaint, and you're here confirming that right now stacked healing is too good at keeping players alive.

So we agree...grouped or otherwise, stacked healing is over performing.

[edited for baiting]

Billium813

No

NotTaylorSwift wrote: »

Yall dont get how hard hot stacking keeps YOU pugs alive also. Sieging keeps vs counter siege would be near impossible if you werent being kept alive by passive hots from random players. Pls bfr.

Fixing a legitimate issue like HoT stacking will certainly end up requiring rebalancing in several other areas. But that doesn't detract from the necessity or benefit of fixing the root issue.

It may end up being that siege damage is indeed too strong after HoT stacking is removed; requiring a nerf to siege damage to rebalance. Or it may mean that Siege Shield becomes more necessary for ball groups in Cyrodiil (which doesn't sound like an issue to me and actually sounds really healthy!)

The real problem is that the longer this goes on, the worse and worse this gets. More and more sets & skills are being balanced AGAINST this HoT stacking mechanic; it's skewing the metrics. The problem is only going to get worse and worse, requiring more and more rebalances if it is to be fixed. Meanwhile, ZOS isn't fixing the root issue, they are just creating more and more apex predators in hopes that they will eat the invading, non-native species running wild. They are painting themselves into a corner cause they can't remove HoT stacking when tons of sets and skills have been balanced JUST TO FIGHT IT!

React

No

NotTaylorSwift wrote: »

Yall dont get how hard hot stacking keeps YOU pugs alive also. Sieging keeps vs counter siege would be near impossible if you werent being kept alive by passive hots from random players. Pls bfr.

You're crazy if you think that any player in the uncoordinated zerg you're fighting has more than 2-4 of any same morph HOT on them at one given time.

Comparing that to your 10-12 stacks of echoing + regens, which individually are likely healing double that of any random zerg player's cast, is laughable.

i11ionward

No

Dear @ZOS_Kevin , this poll was created almost two weeks ago, in my opinion enough time has passed to judge the results. The results of this poll show that people (at least in pvp) are against stacking HoTs, I think the whole community would like you to pass the results of the poll on to the development team.

Please pay attention to the opinion of the community, this person very accurately describes what is happening now with the changes in pvp.

Billium813 wrote: »

The real problem is that the longer this goes on, the worse and worse this gets. More and more sets & skills are being balanced AGAINST this HoT stacking mechanic; it's skewing the metrics. The problem is only going to get worse and worse, requiring more and more rebalances if it is to be fixed. Meanwhile, ZOS isn't fixing the root issue, they are just creating more and more apex predators in hopes that they will eat the invading, non-native species running wild. They are painting themselves into a corner cause they can't remove HoT stacking when tons of sets and skills have been balanced JUST TO FIGHT IT!

RaidingTraiding

Yes

In the past hots of the same morph didn’t stack, and if you wanted stacking hots you would have to run different morphs. Also back then groups used other “unbalanced” skills and ways to heal and stay alive, and people complained about those too until those skills were nerfed. A lot of people ignore the fact that cross heals have already received a nerf which happened very recently on top of having already received multiple healing nerfs over the past few years. Currently they are very weak and just stacking hots alone will not save you from siege or high burst damage. A lot of players also don't realize how much healing they receive from pug healers. Not too long ago after the aoe tests, cross healing was disabled, but the change was reverted because a lot of players complained they couldn't heal each other. So to me this sounds like a case of people not wanting hots to stack for organized groups, while at the same time wanting to receive cross heals themselves.

BetweenMidgets

Yes

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

In regards to your soccer analogy, you have completely missed the mark, the soccer equivalent would be 1 team full of professional players that constantly turns around and abuses the rules and controls the referee to ensure that they are getting a guaranteed favorable outcome against an opposing team full of casuals that may have 1 or 2 good players. Also, they are not winning 1-0, the scoreline would likely be closer to 20-0 or 30-0.

So the team that put in hours to learn the game mechanics and parameters, have different contributing members for different roles in the group, and have honed their specific skillset should play with a handicap [snip]

[Edited for potential baiting]

ForumBully

No

RaidingTraiding wrote: »

In the past hots of the same morph didn’t stack, and if you wanted stacking hots you would have to run different morphs. Also back then groups used other “unbalanced” skills and ways to heal and stay alive, and people complained about those too until those skills were nerfed. A lot of people ignore the fact that cross heals have already received a nerf which happened very recently on top of having already received multiple healing nerfs over the past few years. Currently they are very weak and just stacking hots alone will not save you from siege or high burst damage. A lot of players also don't realize how much healing they receive from pug healers. Not too long ago after the aoe tests, cross healing was disabled, but the change was reverted because a lot of players complained they couldn't heal each other. So to me this sounds like a case of people not wanting hots to stack for organized groups, while at the same time wanting to receive cross heals themselves.

Then you're seeing what you want to see, what's being said is that the same rule should apply to all and that limitless HoT stacking is unbalanced.

Turtle_Bot

No

BetweenMidgets wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

In regards to your soccer analogy, you have completely missed the mark, the soccer equivalent would be 1 team full of professional players that constantly turns around and abuses the rules and controls the referee to ensure that they are getting a guaranteed favorable outcome against an opposing team full of casuals that may have 1 or 2 good players. Also, they are not winning 1-0, the scoreline would likely be closer to 20-0 or 30-0.

So the team that put in hours to learn the game mechanics and parameters, have different contributing members for different roles in the group, and have honed their specific skillset should play with a handicap [snip]

[snip] I said that the team of professional players would be put into a league of equivalently skilled, coordinated and prepared teams of players, they wouldn't be allowed to run rough shot over what is the equivalent of a casual league.

[Edited for potential baiting]

ZOS_Phoenix

Greetings, We've had to edit a few non-constructive and baiting comments. Please remember that while it’s alright to disagree or even debate with each other, provoking conflict, baiting, inciting, mocking, etc. is never acceptable on our forums.

We know people will not always agree and many of you will share different opinions, but please remember that being rude to your fellow community members is against our forum rules and not in the spirit of our game.

BetweenMidgets

Yes

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

I said that the team of professional players would be put into a league of equivalently skilled, coordinated and prepared teams of players, they wouldn't be allowed to run rough shot over what is the equivalent of a casual league.

If you want MMR, you are welcome to play in battlegrounds.

Cyrodiil is designed to be alliance versus alliance - aka large scale battles. The intention is for you to group up with others, in this multiplayer game. Do you have to? No, not at all. Should you, in order to take advantage of buff sets and coordination? Most likely, yes.

I do not believe their should be a "Little League" Cyrodiil - the population has diminished too much to support that idea.
I think that groups that have taken the time to understand the parameters of the game being played should not be penalized.

Aerenthir

Yes

I went with Yes, because the answer I actually want isn't inside the poll. The way I see it, stacking healing should have severe diminishing returns making it practically useless to stack more than 3 or 4 ticks per second.

Turtle_Bot

No

BetweenMidgets wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

I said that the team of professional players would be put into a league of equivalently skilled, coordinated and prepared teams of players, they wouldn't be allowed to run rough shot over what is the equivalent of a casual league.

If you want MMR, you are welcome to play in battlegrounds.

Cyrodiil is designed to be alliance versus alliance - aka large scale battles. The intention is for you to group up with others, in this multiplayer game. Do you have to? No, not at all. Should you, in order to take advantage of buff sets and coordination? Most likely, yes.

I do not believe their should be a "Little League" Cyrodiil - the population has diminished too much to support that idea.
I think that groups that have taken the time to understand the parameters of the game being played should not be penalized.

So groups should be allowed to run around being completely immortal, even to other much larger groups of similarly coordinated and prepared players, with the ability to nuke down everything else in their path?

If you want to do that, you are welcome to play in HM trials that are balanced around that type of gameplay.

Edit: lets not also forget the extreme server performance issues that this style of gameplay is causing in cyrodiil that is crashing people games and creating lag so bad that nothing works even when the ball group isn't in combat. Should this be allowed to continue as well? is this fair/balanced gameplay?

RaidingTraiding

Yes

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

BetweenMidgets wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

I said that the team of professional players would be put into a league of equivalently skilled, coordinated and prepared teams of players, they wouldn't be allowed to run rough shot over what is the equivalent of a casual league.

If you want MMR, you are welcome to play in battlegrounds.

Cyrodiil is designed to be alliance versus alliance - aka large scale battles. The intention is for you to group up with others, in this multiplayer game. Do you have to? No, not at all. Should you, in order to take advantage of buff sets and coordination? Most likely, yes.

I do not believe their should be a "Little League" Cyrodiil - the population has diminished too much to support that idea.
I think that groups that have taken the time to understand the parameters of the game being played should not be penalized.

So groups should be allowed to run around being completely immortal, even to other much larger groups of similarly coordinated and prepared players, with the ability to nuke down everything else in their path?

If you want to do that, you are welcome to play in HM trials that are balanced around that type of gameplay.

Edit: lets not also forget the extreme server performance issues that this style of gameplay is causing in cyrodiil that is crashing people games and creating lag so bad that nothing works even when the ball group isn't in combat. Should this be allowed to continue as well? is this fair/balanced gameplay?

It's quite an exaggeration to say these groups are immortal. Most groups can be killed by as little as a group of 2 or 3 coordinating a bomb, but a lot of the players that complain about these groups don't want to put the time or effort into coordinating something like that. And that's exactly how these groups can nuke people, they coordinate a few ults per push, most skilled groups don't drop all ults in one push. If they can't die to a larger group that is similarly coordinated and prepared then they really aren't that similar. If you have a group larger than 12 that is the same skill level or similar, then there is no reason you shouldn't be able to kill the smaller group, at the very least you should be able to kill a few players and force them to retreat for a camp. Another thing I noticed is when pugs kill a ball group, or even when a friendly ball group kills an enemy ball group, not much is said about it. It's really not that uncommon for a group to wipe, maybe a more skilled group or a tankier group might take a little more effort to get rid of, but every single group has died at some point.

Cross healing is not what makes groups "immortal". You can take cross healing away, and coordinated groups will still be hard to kill, not because they abuse any certain skill or set, but because they put time and effort into learning how the game works and optimizing their group.

HM trials is completely different from anything in pvp, it really doesn't make sense to say its balanced around that type of gameplay.

Server performance is another issue unrelated to this post. I could argue that faction stacking creates more lag than a single group of 12. Now multiple groups of the same faction stacking on each other would generate similar lag to a faction zerg, but from what I have experienced, a single group of 12 alone will not cause performance issues. Maybe the faction that stacks on the group will cause some lag, and in that case if you're fighting the group then you are contributing to the lag. These groups also experience lag, just because they're in a group of 12 doesn't mean they are magically immune to lag. In some cases lag works against the group. A big factor in a group's ability to survive is to have good movement, if they can't cc break or move because of lag then they become a lot more vulnerable.

ForumBully

No

RaidingTraiding wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

BetweenMidgets wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

I said that the team of professional players would be put into a league of equivalently skilled, coordinated and prepared teams of players, they wouldn't be allowed to run rough shot over what is the equivalent of a casual league.

If you want MMR, you are welcome to play in battlegrounds.

Cyrodiil is designed to be alliance versus alliance - aka large scale battles. The intention is for you to group up with others, in this multiplayer game. Do you have to? No, not at all. Should you, in order to take advantage of buff sets and coordination? Most likely, yes.

I do not believe their should be a "Little League" Cyrodiil - the population has diminished too much to support that idea.
I think that groups that have taken the time to understand the parameters of the game being played should not be penalized.

So groups should be allowed to run around being completely immortal, even to other much larger groups of similarly coordinated and prepared players, with the ability to nuke down everything else in their path?

If you want to do that, you are welcome to play in HM trials that are balanced around that type of gameplay.

Edit: lets not also forget the extreme server performance issues that this style of gameplay is causing in cyrodiil that is crashing people games and creating lag so bad that nothing works even when the ball group isn't in combat. Should this be allowed to continue as well? is this fair/balanced gameplay?

It's quite an exaggeration to say these groups are immortal. Most groups can be killed by as little as a group of 2 or 3 coordinating a bomb, but a lot of the players that complain about these groups don't want to put the time or effort into coordinating something like that. And that's exactly how these groups can nuke people, they coordinate a few ults per push, most skilled groups don't drop all ults in one push. If they can't die to a larger group that is similarly coordinated and prepared then they really aren't that similar. If you have a group larger than 12 that is the same skill level or similar, then there is no reason you shouldn't be able to kill the smaller group, at the very least you should be able to kill a few players and force them to retreat for a camp. Another thing I noticed is when pugs kill a ball group, or even when a friendly ball group kills an enemy ball group, not much is said about it. It's really not that uncommon for a group to wipe, maybe a more skilled group or a tankier group might take a little more effort to get rid of, but every single group has died at some point.

Cross healing is not what makes groups "immortal". You can take cross healing away, and coordinated groups will still be hard to kill, not because they abuse any certain skill or set, but because they put time and effort into learning how the game works and optimizing their group.

HM trials is completely different from anything in pvp, it really doesn't make sense to say its balanced around that type of gameplay.

Server performance is another issue unrelated to this post. I could argue that faction stacking creates more lag than a single group of 12. Now multiple groups of the same faction stacking on each other would generate similar lag to a faction zerg, but from what I have experienced, a single group of 12 alone will not cause performance issues. Maybe the faction that stacks on the group will cause some lag, and in that case if you're fighting the group then you are contributing to the lag. These groups also experience lag, just because they're in a group of 12 doesn't mean they are magically immune to lag. In some cases lag works against the group. A big factor in a group's ability to survive is to have good movement, if they can't cc break or move because of lag then they become a lot more vulnerable.

Literally no one is talking about cross healing

Billium813

No

RaidingTraiding wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

BetweenMidgets wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

I said that the team of professional players would be put into a league of equivalently skilled, coordinated and prepared teams of players, they wouldn't be allowed to run rough shot over what is the equivalent of a casual league.

If you want MMR, you are welcome to play in battlegrounds.

Cyrodiil is designed to be alliance versus alliance - aka large scale battles. The intention is for you to group up with others, in this multiplayer game. Do you have to? No, not at all. Should you, in order to take advantage of buff sets and coordination? Most likely, yes.

I do not believe their should be a "Little League" Cyrodiil - the population has diminished too much to support that idea.
I think that groups that have taken the time to understand the parameters of the game being played should not be penalized.

So groups should be allowed to run around being completely immortal, even to other much larger groups of similarly coordinated and prepared players, with the ability to nuke down everything else in their path?

If you want to do that, you are welcome to play in HM trials that are balanced around that type of gameplay.

Edit: lets not also forget the extreme server performance issues that this style of gameplay is causing in cyrodiil that is crashing people games and creating lag so bad that nothing works even when the ball group isn't in combat. Should this be allowed to continue as well? is this fair/balanced gameplay?

It's quite an exaggeration to say these groups are immortal. Most groups can be killed by as little as a group of 2 or 3 coordinating a bomb, but a lot of the players that complain about these groups don't want to put the time or effort into coordinating something like that.

ZOS has been quite vocal that they do not like bomber builds and nerf them on sight. While I don't like bomber builds either personally, it is quite annoying that one of the best predators of coordinated 12 man pvp groups has a target on its forehead. Though... bombing ball groups wouldn't be necessary if their healing WASNT OFF THE CHARTS CRAZY. Maybe ZOS can tackle HoT stacking in PvP now that they have moved on from nerfing the latest Harmony bombing.

Turtle_Bot

No

RaidingTraiding wrote: »

It's quite an exaggeration to say these groups are immortal. Most groups can be killed by as little as a group of 2 or 3 coordinating a bomb, but a lot of the players that complain about these groups don't want to put the time or effort into coordinating something like that. And that's exactly how these groups can nuke people, they coordinate a few ults per push, most skilled groups don't drop all ults in one push. If they can't die to a larger group that is similarly coordinated and prepared then they really aren't that similar. If you have a group larger than 12 that is the same skill level or similar, then there is no reason you shouldn't be able to kill the smaller group, at the very least you should be able to kill a few players and force them to retreat for a camp. Another thing I noticed is when pugs kill a ball group, or even when a friendly ball group kills an enemy ball group, not much is said about it. It's really not that uncommon for a group to wipe, maybe a more skilled group or a tankier group might take a little more effort to get rid of, but every single group has died at some point.

it is not an exaggeration, it is the truth, ball groups have become completely immortal to everything that is not a faction stack combined with another well coordinated ball group. Most ball groups don't even bother to fight each other because it only ends in a stalemate due to how much passive healing those groups have.
The only "ball groups" that ever truly wipe to a few players are likely a newly formed group, unoptimized, not well coordinated and not properly geared out yet.

Cross healing is not what makes groups "immortal". You can take cross healing away, and coordinated groups will still be hard to kill, not because they abuse any certain skill or set, but because they put time and effort into learning how the game works and optimizing their group.

I never mentioned cross healing, I was talking about heal stacking, which IS making ball groups immortal. Stop trying to put words in my mouth that were never stated or even eluded to, [snip]

HM trials is completely different from anything in pvp, it really doesn't make sense to say its balanced around that type of gameplay.

Vet HM trials are designed and balanced around having a highly coordinated group of 12 players who know what they are doing and have built the group around overcoming that challenge. You are just factually incorrect here. HM trials are designed around this style of highly coordinated group play.

Server performance is another issue unrelated to this post. I could argue that faction stacking creates more lag than a single group of 12. Now multiple groups of the same faction stacking on each other would generate similar lag to a faction zerg, but from what I have experienced, a single group of 12 alone will not cause performance issues. Maybe the faction that stacks on the group will cause some lag, and in that case if you're fighting the group then you are contributing to the lag. These groups also experience lag, just because they're in a group of 12 doesn't mean they are magically immune to lag. In some cases lag works against the group. A big factor in a group's ability to survive is to have good movement, if they can't cc break or move because of lag then they become a lot more vulnerable.

Server performance has everything to do with this post. If the ball groups weren't causing so many infinitely stacking calculations for the servers to process at all times, then we wouldn't have 90% of the lag that those ball groups generate when they log on.

I've played during all times of the game, prime time, middle of the night, mid afternoon, etc for years now and countless others have stated the same thing as I have (that ball groups affect server performance far worse than anything else in the game).
No lag ever comes close to what happens when ball groups log on and start running around the map spamming their infinitely stacking HoTs. Prime time faction stack with all 3 factions pop locked still easily performs better and smoother than when a ball group logs on during the middle of the night to PvD the map down, even when using a laptop.
I'm not saying the game performs perfectly during prime time, but it still performs better than when a ball group logs on and that is purely because of the endless stream of infinitely stacking calculations that the servers have to process because of the infinite heal stacking that ball groups do.

These groups are also far less vulnerable to lag because they have infinite passive healing stacked up. They don't have to worry about reactive gameplay at all because all the defense they could ever need is applied passively through heal stacking. Also, if 1 HoT fails to cast, it doesn't matter because 23 more are still being cast/still ticking, so yes, the groups are basically immune to lag because their defense is passive and not active.

A big factor of anyone surviving is movement, but ball groups have the passive healing over time allowing them to mitigate almost all of this necessity except for the most extreme cases of lag that would have crashed everyone else already.

[Edited for Baiting]

RaidingTraiding

Yes

ForumBully wrote: »

RaidingTraiding wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

BetweenMidgets wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

I said that the team of professional players would be put into a league of equivalently skilled, coordinated and prepared teams of players, they wouldn't be allowed to run rough shot over what is the equivalent of a casual league.

If you want MMR, you are welcome to play in battlegrounds.

Cyrodiil is designed to be alliance versus alliance - aka large scale battles. The intention is for you to group up with others, in this multiplayer game. Do you have to? No, not at all. Should you, in order to take advantage of buff sets and coordination? Most likely, yes.

I do not believe their should be a "Little League" Cyrodiil - the population has diminished too much to support that idea.
I think that groups that have taken the time to understand the parameters of the game being played should not be penalized.

So groups should be allowed to run around being completely immortal, even to other much larger groups of similarly coordinated and prepared players, with the ability to nuke down everything else in their path?

If you want to do that, you are welcome to play in HM trials that are balanced around that type of gameplay.

Edit: lets not also forget the extreme server performance issues that this style of gameplay is causing in cyrodiil that is crashing people games and creating lag so bad that nothing works even when the ball group isn't in combat. Should this be allowed to continue as well? is this fair/balanced gameplay?

It's quite an exaggeration to say these groups are immortal. Most groups can be killed by as little as a group of 2 or 3 coordinating a bomb, but a lot of the players that complain about these groups don't want to put the time or effort into coordinating something like that. And that's exactly how these groups can nuke people, they coordinate a few ults per push, most skilled groups don't drop all ults in one push. If they can't die to a larger group that is similarly coordinated and prepared then they really aren't that similar. If you have a group larger than 12 that is the same skill level or similar, then there is no reason you shouldn't be able to kill the smaller group, at the very least you should be able to kill a few players and force them to retreat for a camp. Another thing I noticed is when pugs kill a ball group, or even when a friendly ball group kills an enemy ball group, not much is said about it. It's really not that uncommon for a group to wipe, maybe a more skilled group or a tankier group might take a little more effort to get rid of, but every single group has died at some point.

Cross healing is not what makes groups "immortal". You can take cross healing away, and coordinated groups will still be hard to kill, not because they abuse any certain skill or set, but because they put time and effort into learning how the game works and optimizing their group.

HM trials is completely different from anything in pvp, it really doesn't make sense to say its balanced around that type of gameplay.

Server performance is another issue unrelated to this post. I could argue that faction stacking creates more lag than a single group of 12. Now multiple groups of the same faction stacking on each other would generate similar lag to a faction zerg, but from what I have experienced, a single group of 12 alone will not cause performance issues. Maybe the faction that stacks on the group will cause some lag, and in that case if you're fighting the group then you are contributing to the lag. These groups also experience lag, just because they're in a group of 12 doesn't mean they are magically immune to lag. In some cases lag works against the group. A big factor in a group's ability to survive is to have good movement, if they can't cc break or move because of lag then they become a lot more vulnerable.

Literally no one is talking about cross healing

Literally this whole thread is about stacking cross heals (RR and Echoing Vigor).

ForumBully

No

RaidingTraiding wrote: »

ForumBully wrote: »

RaidingTraiding wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

BetweenMidgets wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

I said that the team of professional players would be put into a league of equivalently skilled, coordinated and prepared teams of players, they wouldn't be allowed to run rough shot over what is the equivalent of a casual league.

If you want MMR, you are welcome to play in battlegrounds.

Cyrodiil is designed to be alliance versus alliance - aka large scale battles. The intention is for you to group up with others, in this multiplayer game. Do you have to? No, not at all. Should you, in order to take advantage of buff sets and coordination? Most likely, yes.

I do not believe their should be a "Little League" Cyrodiil - the population has diminished too much to support that idea.
I think that groups that have taken the time to understand the parameters of the game being played should not be penalized.

So groups should be allowed to run around being completely immortal, even to other much larger groups of similarly coordinated and prepared players, with the ability to nuke down everything else in their path?

If you want to do that, you are welcome to play in HM trials that are balanced around that type of gameplay.

Edit: lets not also forget the extreme server performance issues that this style of gameplay is causing in cyrodiil that is crashing people games and creating lag so bad that nothing works even when the ball group isn't in combat. Should this be allowed to continue as well? is this fair/balanced gameplay?

It's quite an exaggeration to say these groups are immortal. Most groups can be killed by as little as a group of 2 or 3 coordinating a bomb, but a lot of the players that complain about these groups don't want to put the time or effort into coordinating something like that. And that's exactly how these groups can nuke people, they coordinate a few ults per push, most skilled groups don't drop all ults in one push. If they can't die to a larger group that is similarly coordinated and prepared then they really aren't that similar. If you have a group larger than 12 that is the same skill level or similar, then there is no reason you shouldn't be able to kill the smaller group, at the very least you should be able to kill a few players and force them to retreat for a camp. Another thing I noticed is when pugs kill a ball group, or even when a friendly ball group kills an enemy ball group, not much is said about it. It's really not that uncommon for a group to wipe, maybe a more skilled group or a tankier group might take a little more effort to get rid of, but every single group has died at some point.

Cross healing is not what makes groups "immortal". You can take cross healing away, and coordinated groups will still be hard to kill, not because they abuse any certain skill or set, but because they put time and effort into learning how the game works and optimizing their group.

HM trials is completely different from anything in pvp, it really doesn't make sense to say its balanced around that type of gameplay.

Server performance is another issue unrelated to this post. I could argue that faction stacking creates more lag than a single group of 12. Now multiple groups of the same faction stacking on each other would generate similar lag to a faction zerg, but from what I have experienced, a single group of 12 alone will not cause performance issues. Maybe the faction that stacks on the group will cause some lag, and in that case if you're fighting the group then you are contributing to the lag. These groups also experience lag, just because they're in a group of 12 doesn't mean they are magically immune to lag. In some cases lag works against the group. A big factor in a group's ability to survive is to have good movement, if they can't cc break or move because of lag then they become a lot more vulnerable.

Literally no one is talking about cross healing

Literally this whole thread is about stacking cross heals (RR and Echoing Vigor).

Cross healing is heals leaving and entering the group. If people were talking about ending cross healing, the discussion would be around closing groups to outside healing.
Stacked healing is about same-name heals having multiple instances on a character.
These aren't the same.

RaidingTraiding

Yes

ForumBully wrote: »

RaidingTraiding wrote: »

ForumBully wrote: »

RaidingTraiding wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

BetweenMidgets wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

I said that the team of professional players would be put into a league of equivalently skilled, coordinated and prepared teams of players, they wouldn't be allowed to run rough shot over what is the equivalent of a casual league.

If you want MMR, you are welcome to play in battlegrounds.

Cyrodiil is designed to be alliance versus alliance - aka large scale battles. The intention is for you to group up with others, in this multiplayer game. Do you have to? No, not at all. Should you, in order to take advantage of buff sets and coordination? Most likely, yes.

I do not believe their should be a "Little League" Cyrodiil - the population has diminished too much to support that idea.
I think that groups that have taken the time to understand the parameters of the game being played should not be penalized.

So groups should be allowed to run around being completely immortal, even to other much larger groups of similarly coordinated and prepared players, with the ability to nuke down everything else in their path?

If you want to do that, you are welcome to play in HM trials that are balanced around that type of gameplay.

Edit: lets not also forget the extreme server performance issues that this style of gameplay is causing in cyrodiil that is crashing people games and creating lag so bad that nothing works even when the ball group isn't in combat. Should this be allowed to continue as well? is this fair/balanced gameplay?

It's quite an exaggeration to say these groups are immortal. Most groups can be killed by as little as a group of 2 or 3 coordinating a bomb, but a lot of the players that complain about these groups don't want to put the time or effort into coordinating something like that. And that's exactly how these groups can nuke people, they coordinate a few ults per push, most skilled groups don't drop all ults in one push. If they can't die to a larger group that is similarly coordinated and prepared then they really aren't that similar. If you have a group larger than 12 that is the same skill level or similar, then there is no reason you shouldn't be able to kill the smaller group, at the very least you should be able to kill a few players and force them to retreat for a camp. Another thing I noticed is when pugs kill a ball group, or even when a friendly ball group kills an enemy ball group, not much is said about it. It's really not that uncommon for a group to wipe, maybe a more skilled group or a tankier group might take a little more effort to get rid of, but every single group has died at some point.

Cross healing is not what makes groups "immortal". You can take cross healing away, and coordinated groups will still be hard to kill, not because they abuse any certain skill or set, but because they put time and effort into learning how the game works and optimizing their group.

HM trials is completely different from anything in pvp, it really doesn't make sense to say its balanced around that type of gameplay.

Server performance is another issue unrelated to this post. I could argue that faction stacking creates more lag than a single group of 12. Now multiple groups of the same faction stacking on each other would generate similar lag to a faction zerg, but from what I have experienced, a single group of 12 alone will not cause performance issues. Maybe the faction that stacks on the group will cause some lag, and in that case if you're fighting the group then you are contributing to the lag. These groups also experience lag, just because they're in a group of 12 doesn't mean they are magically immune to lag. In some cases lag works against the group. A big factor in a group's ability to survive is to have good movement, if they can't cc break or move because of lag then they become a lot more vulnerable.

Literally no one is talking about cross healing

Literally this whole thread is about stacking cross heals (RR and Echoing Vigor).

Cross healing is heals leaving and entering the group. If people were talking about ending cross healing, the discussion would be around closing groups to outside healing.
Stacked healing is about same-name heals having multiple instances on a character.
These aren't the same.

I don't recall the definitions being outlined anywhere, feel free to drop a link. I see plenty of people refer to stacking the same hots in group as cross healing. Regardless of whatever your specific definitions are we are talking about the same thing, so there is no need to go off on a tangent about heals outside of group. A lot of what I discussed was talking about 12 man groups that aren't stacking with pugs or other groups so you could have easily inferred I wasn't talking about said groups receiving heals from outside the group, since there is no other group nearby to receive heals from.

ForumBully

No

RaidingTraiding wrote: »

ForumBully wrote: »

RaidingTraiding wrote: »

ForumBully wrote: »

RaidingTraiding wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

BetweenMidgets wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

I said that the team of professional players would be put into a league of equivalently skilled, coordinated and prepared teams of players, they wouldn't be allowed to run rough shot over what is the equivalent of a casual league.

If you want MMR, you are welcome to play in battlegrounds.

Cyrodiil is designed to be alliance versus alliance - aka large scale battles. The intention is for you to group up with others, in this multiplayer game. Do you have to? No, not at all. Should you, in order to take advantage of buff sets and coordination? Most likely, yes.

I do not believe their should be a "Little League" Cyrodiil - the population has diminished too much to support that idea.
I think that groups that have taken the time to understand the parameters of the game being played should not be penalized.

So groups should be allowed to run around being completely immortal, even to other much larger groups of similarly coordinated and prepared players, with the ability to nuke down everything else in their path?

If you want to do that, you are welcome to play in HM trials that are balanced around that type of gameplay.

Edit: lets not also forget the extreme server performance issues that this style of gameplay is causing in cyrodiil that is crashing people games and creating lag so bad that nothing works even when the ball group isn't in combat. Should this be allowed to continue as well? is this fair/balanced gameplay?

It's quite an exaggeration to say these groups are immortal. Most groups can be killed by as little as a group of 2 or 3 coordinating a bomb, but a lot of the players that complain about these groups don't want to put the time or effort into coordinating something like that. And that's exactly how these groups can nuke people, they coordinate a few ults per push, most skilled groups don't drop all ults in one push. If they can't die to a larger group that is similarly coordinated and prepared then they really aren't that similar. If you have a group larger than 12 that is the same skill level or similar, then there is no reason you shouldn't be able to kill the smaller group, at the very least you should be able to kill a few players and force them to retreat for a camp. Another thing I noticed is when pugs kill a ball group, or even when a friendly ball group kills an enemy ball group, not much is said about it. It's really not that uncommon for a group to wipe, maybe a more skilled group or a tankier group might take a little more effort to get rid of, but every single group has died at some point.

Cross healing is not what makes groups "immortal". You can take cross healing away, and coordinated groups will still be hard to kill, not because they abuse any certain skill or set, but because they put time and effort into learning how the game works and optimizing their group.

HM trials is completely different from anything in pvp, it really doesn't make sense to say its balanced around that type of gameplay.

Server performance is another issue unrelated to this post. I could argue that faction stacking creates more lag than a single group of 12. Now multiple groups of the same faction stacking on each other would generate similar lag to a faction zerg, but from what I have experienced, a single group of 12 alone will not cause performance issues. Maybe the faction that stacks on the group will cause some lag, and in that case if you're fighting the group then you are contributing to the lag. These groups also experience lag, just because they're in a group of 12 doesn't mean they are magically immune to lag. In some cases lag works against the group. A big factor in a group's ability to survive is to have good movement, if they can't cc break or move because of lag then they become a lot more vulnerable.

Literally no one is talking about cross healing

Literally this whole thread is about stacking cross heals (RR and Echoing Vigor).

Cross healing is heals leaving and entering the group. If people were talking about ending cross healing, the discussion would be around closing groups to outside healing.
Stacked healing is about same-name heals having multiple instances on a character.
These aren't the same.

I don't recall the definitions being outlined anywhere, feel free to drop a link. I see plenty of people refer to stacking the same hots in group as cross healing. Regardless of whatever your specific definitions are we are talking about the same thing, so there is no need to go off on a tangent about heals outside of group. A lot of what I discussed was talking about 12 man groups that aren't stacking with pugs or other groups so you could have easily inferred I wasn't talking about said groups receiving heals from outside the group, since there is no other group nearby to receive heals from.

I have never heard that, but ok. When ZoS disabled cross healing as part of their performance testing they did not disable heal stacking. So those have always been distinct as far as I know.

TechMaybeHic

Yes

Well; with the tab icons getting upgraded to be resizeable, could make PvP group sizes even smaller yet and not allow healing outside of a group, and you still could run rather large and still stick together. Would be zero impact to PvE as the limit would be the groups size .

Yes; I realize people wat to heal allies to where this could be unpopular opinion as it was not super popular when they tried with with 12 or 24 man groups, but you can do that in a group and maybe they can do some better PvP group finding to pair people up nearby. Limiting force multipliers to a reasonable level is far more important than just running to crossed swords to just spam heals while following randoms. Maybe even a perk to have to organize rather than just mindlessly stack

RaidingTraiding

Yes

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

RaidingTraiding wrote: »

It's quite an exaggeration to say these groups are immortal. Most groups can be killed by as little as a group of 2 or 3 coordinating a bomb, but a lot of the players that complain about these groups don't want to put the time or effort into coordinating something like that. And that's exactly how these groups can nuke people, they coordinate a few ults per push, most skilled groups don't drop all ults in one push. If they can't die to a larger group that is similarly coordinated and prepared then they really aren't that similar. If you have a group larger than 12 that is the same skill level or similar, then there is no reason you shouldn't be able to kill the smaller group, at the very least you should be able to kill a few players and force them to retreat for a camp. Another thing I noticed is when pugs kill a ball group, or even when a friendly ball group kills an enemy ball group, not much is said about it. It's really not that uncommon for a group to wipe, maybe a more skilled group or a tankier group might take a little more effort to get rid of, but every single group has died at some point.

it is not an exaggeration, it is the truth, ball groups have become completely immortal to everything that is not a faction stack combined with another well coordinated ball group. Most ball groups don't even bother to fight each other because it only ends in a stalemate due to how much passive healing those groups have.
The only "ball groups" that ever truly wipe to a few players are likely a newly formed group, unoptimized, not well coordinated and not properly geared out yet.

Cross healing is not what makes groups "immortal". You can take cross healing away, and coordinated groups will still be hard to kill, not because they abuse any certain skill or set, but because they put time and effort into learning how the game works and optimizing their group.

I never mentioned cross healing, I was talking about heal stacking, which IS making ball groups immortal. Stop trying to put words in my mouth that were never stated or even eluded to, [snip]

HM trials is completely different from anything in pvp, it really doesn't make sense to say its balanced around that type of gameplay.

Vet HM trials are designed and balanced around having a highly coordinated group of 12 players who know what they are doing and have built the group around overcoming that challenge. You are just factually incorrect here. HM trials are designed around this style of highly coordinated group play.

Server performance is another issue unrelated to this post. I could argue that faction stacking creates more lag than a single group of 12. Now multiple groups of the same faction stacking on each other would generate similar lag to a faction zerg, but from what I have experienced, a single group of 12 alone will not cause performance issues. Maybe the faction that stacks on the group will cause some lag, and in that case if you're fighting the group then you are contributing to the lag. These groups also experience lag, just because they're in a group of 12 doesn't mean they are magically immune to lag. In some cases lag works against the group. A big factor in a group's ability to survive is to have good movement, if they can't cc break or move because of lag then they become a lot more vulnerable.

Server performance has everything to do with this post. If the ball groups weren't causing so many infinitely stacking calculations for the servers to process at all times, then we wouldn't have 90% of the lag that those ball groups generate when they log on.

I've played during all times of the game, prime time, middle of the night, mid afternoon, etc for years now and countless others have stated the same thing as I have (that ball groups affect server performance far worse than anything else in the game).
No lag ever comes close to what happens when ball groups log on and start running around the map spamming their infinitely stacking HoTs. Prime time faction stack with all 3 factions pop locked still easily performs better and smoother than when a ball group logs on during the middle of the night to PvD the map down, even when using a laptop.
I'm not saying the game performs perfectly during prime time, but it still performs better than when a ball group logs on and that is purely because of the endless stream of infinitely stacking calculations that the servers have to process because of the infinite heal stacking that ball groups do.

These groups are also far less vulnerable to lag because they have infinite passive healing stacked up. They don't have to worry about reactive gameplay at all because all the defense they could ever need is applied passively through heal stacking. Also, if 1 HoT fails to cast, it doesn't matter because 23 more are still being cast/still ticking, so yes, the groups are basically immune to lag because their defense is passive and not active.

A big factor of anyone surviving is movement, but ball groups have the passive healing over time allowing them to mitigate almost all of this necessity except for the most extreme cases of lag that would have crashed everyone else already.

[Edited for Baiting]

I’m guessing you haven’t run with many groups. I see this misconception on the forums a lot - that ball groups don't fight each other and can’t kill each other. Some groups do prioritize survivability at the expense of damage, so those groups will definitely struggle to kill other groups, especially if the other group they're fighting is similarly built. The group I play with actually prefers fighting other coordinated groups that are around the same size. We fight opposing ball groups multiple times through the course of the evening. Most of these groups are well comped. Also, the more times we fight each other, the more experience the other group gets. Some groups we fight have improved a lot, going from an easy wipe and free kills to being harder to kill and difficult to heal through when they make pushes, which makes it more fun and engaging to fight against. It is true some groups avoid each other and will only fight if they set up a GvG, but this isn't true for all groups on all campaigns. Newer and uncoordinated groups aren't as fun to fight because the fight is usually over within 10 seconds of running into each other, so it isn't challenging at all, and usually when this happens, the losing group will avoid future fights.

The pull sets, which in my opinion were a terrible addition to pvp, have made it a lot easier to secure kills on other groups. A well timed negate and a pull makes it easier to kill other groups, the same is true if you're in a small group trying to fight a 12 man. If your group has enough burst, and you lock the enemy group in a negate, they can't burst heal heal through it, and their stacking stam heals (echoing vigor) alone aren't enough to heal through heavy burst. If it's lagging it's even harder to get out of a pull. That being said, the harmony nerf (which I am against) will hurt damage output for nearly every group and it will be more common for fights between other groups to end in stalemates.

When I say cross heals, I was referring to heal stacking within the group, so no need to get upset about that, we are talking about the same thing.

How do you know it's heal stacking causing lag? If you say you've played for years I'm sure you played during the server tests where they limited aoes and aoe healing on some of the tests. I don't remember a post being made by the devs saying heal stacking was the root of lag. There are plenty of other things that create a lot of server calculations. So you can try to make an argument on anything being the cause of lag, but there isn't any evidence for any of it. You can really only go by personal experience which differs between different people. For me personally, I experience lag the worst when the faction or multiple factions stack in one place, like during a hammer fight, ball group present or not. There are a lot of pug healers also that use hots that stack. I also know that a lot of 12 man ball groups don't have every single player stacking a hot. Some roles like damage dealers don't have a single heal slotted, so in some groups it's less than 8 players throwing out a stacking heal. I just don't see how 8 players stacking hots with 4 others not healing at all, can have more hot ticks than a faction zerg of say like 50+. Now some ball groups will run 20 players or more, and I do notice some lag from them, or when we fight multiple ball groups stacking on each other I will notice some lag there as well. But when we fight another ball group alone I don't notice any performance issues. Also when I'm running ungrouped or in a small group fighting an enemy 12 man while surfing our faction, I don't see many issues there either.

My point with lag and movement was that if it's lagging, a player or 2 might fall behind, leaving them open to being singled out. If they're outside healing range from burst heals, they will likely not survive, heal stacking alone doesn't always ensure their survival, especially if there's a group of gankers trailing the group, who have heavy single target burst. I've seen this happen a lot. You could argue that the necro rez ult is too strong and it makes it easier for groups to stay in the fight, and I would agree with you. If an enemy zerg can't finish off a player that has been singled out due to lag that isn't really a balance issue, like I've said I have seen this happen a lot to almost every group.

Also a lot of ball groups don't pvdoor, some do, but a majority are just looking for fights. Even so I really don't see that creating lag. If they're truly pvdooring there isn't really a need to be constantly throwing out as much stacking heals, at least not to the same level as when they are actively engaged in combat.

i11ionward

No

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