Should HoTs stack?

KingLewie_III

No

Ishtarknows wrote: »

In PVE absolutely. There's no way the most recent DLC trial hard modes can be completed without HoTs stacking .

In PvP - personally I don't care much for PvP, but if this complaint is all about that then HoTs need balanced by battle spirit not by fundamentally changing how they stack. There's no need to help one at the expense of the other.

This issue is exclusive to PVP. You don't run more than 2 healers in any PVE content and therefore would never have an instance of more than 2 stacks of the same HOT active at a time. Limiting HOTs to 2 stacks of each morph would solve the problem in PVP and would not affect PVE in any way.

Turtle_Bot

No

Sussuris wrote: »

I did not vote, because I think they should stack, but not to their current extent. 2 external stacks + 1 internal stack is a good cap.

this is pretty much the consensus among the players (especially those who voted no).
2 stacks of a heal and maybe a 3rd stack from your own self heal (at most) is all that's needed, it wouldn't harm pve content where only 2 healers max are ran anyway and would allow for healing itself to be buffed to suit the harder PvE content without breaking it again in PvP.

WrathOfInnos

Yes

KingLewie_III wrote: »

Ishtarknows wrote: »

In PVE absolutely. There's no way the most recent DLC trial hard modes can be completed without HoTs stacking .

In PvP - personally I don't care much for PvP, but if this complaint is all about that then HoTs need balanced by battle spirit not by fundamentally changing how they stack. There's no need to help one at the expense of the other.

This issue is exclusive to PVP. You don't run more than 2 healers in any PVE content and therefore would never have an instance of more than 2 stacks of the same HOT active at a time. Limiting HOTs to 2 stacks of each morph would solve the problem in PVP and would not affect PVE in any way.

Tanks often contribute to healing, sometimes even using a Restoration Staff (Falgravn HM). Vigor is more common, especially with some of the heal checks in newer trials (Taleria HM Maelstrom). Groups struggling with this content may even have a few DPS slot Vigor. Removing heal stacking in PVE would absolutely have consequences, particularly affecting progression groups.

It wouldn't be a good change in PVP either. Particularly in battlegrounds where a team of 4 needs to be able to heal each other. When doing solo queue there is no opportunity to plan skills and morphs with teammates, and it would weaken these teams while leaving premade groups strong. You may end up with 4 restoration staff healers, or 4 stamblades with vigor, and all of the deserve to have functioning skills.

Now if you said a cap of 4 that may be more reasonable, as it would have no impact on BG's or dungeons, and very rarely on trials. It's still and arbitrary and unnecessary change, but it wouldn't be terrible.

Ishtarknows

Yes

KingLewie_III wrote: »

This issue is exclusive to PVP.

In that case it needs a solution exclusive to PvP.

KingLewie_III

No

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

KingLewie_III wrote: »

Ishtarknows wrote: »

In PVE absolutely. There's no way the most recent DLC trial hard modes can be completed without HoTs stacking .

In PvP - personally I don't care much for PvP, but if this complaint is all about that then HoTs need balanced by battle spirit not by fundamentally changing how they stack. There's no need to help one at the expense of the other.

This issue is exclusive to PVP. You don't run more than 2 healers in any PVE content and therefore would never have an instance of more than 2 stacks of the same HOT active at a time. Limiting HOTs to 2 stacks of each morph would solve the problem in PVP and would not affect PVE in any way.

Tanks often contribute to healing, sometimes even using a Restoration Staff (Falgravn HM). Vigor is more common, especially with some of the heal checks in newer trials (Taleria HM Maelstrom). Groups struggling with this content may even have a few DPS slot Vigor. Removing heal stacking in PVE would absolutely have consequences, particularly affecting progression groups.

It wouldn't be a good change in PVP either. Particularly in battlegrounds where a team of 4 needs to be able to heal each other. When doing solo queue there is no opportunity to plan skills and morphs with teammates, and it would weaken these teams while leaving premade groups strong. You may end up with 4 restoration staff healers, or 4 stamblades with vigor, and all of the deserve to have functioning skills.

Now if you said a cap of 4 that may be more reasonable, as it would have no impact on BG's or dungeons, and very rarely on trials. It's still and arbitrary and unnecessary change, but it wouldn't be terrible.

If you're in Solo BG's you aren't slotting Echoing Vigor, your running Resolving Vigor which only heals you. The only skill that may be effected by this change would be Radiating Regen which is rarely used anymore by anyone who isn't playing a healer.

As far as PVE goes, I've never seen an end game group need more than 2 healers. But even in the situation you've outlined, use a different morph. Got two stacks of Radiating? Use Rapid. If the DPS are having trouble surviving, slot a burst heal. I've completed just about every piece of content in this game with the exception of DSR HM, because i just don't enjoy PVE anymore. If you need more than 2 healers, you're likely doing something wrong.

KingLewie_III

No

Ishtarknows wrote: »

KingLewie_III wrote: »

This issue is exclusive to PVP.

In that case it needs a solution exclusive to PvP.

It is, it wouldn't affect PVE because you don't run more than 2 healers. I think folks are misunderstanding what's meant by heal stacking. It's not referring to having radiating regen, healing spring, healing orb, etc. all active. It's referring to the same named morph of a skill being stacked over and over again.

Ishtarknows wrote: »

In PVE absolutely. There's no way the most recent DLC trial hard modes can be completed without HoTs stacking .

In PvP - personally I don't care much for PvP, but if this complaint is all about that then HoTs need balanced by battle spirit not by fundamentally changing how they stack. There's no need to help one at the expense of the other.

I think you're misunderstanding what's meant by HOTs stacking. And if you don't play PVP, that's understandable.

It isn't referencing stacking different healing abilities (radiating regen, healing spring, healing orbs, etc.)
It's about stacking the same morph 12 times.

Nothing about this effects PVE at all.

Ishtarknows

Yes

KingLewie_III wrote: »

Ishtarknows wrote: »

KingLewie_III wrote: »

This issue is exclusive to PVP.

In that case it needs a solution exclusive to PvP.

It is, it wouldn't affect PVE because you don't run more than 2 healers. I think folks are misunderstanding what's meant by heal stacking. It's not referring to having radiating regen, healing spring, healing orb, etc. all active. It's referring to the same named morph of a skill being stacked over and over again.

Ishtarknows wrote: »

In PVE absolutely. There's no way the most recent DLC trial hard modes can be completed without HoTs stacking .

In PvP - personally I don't care much for PvP, but if this complaint is all about that then HoTs need balanced by battle spirit not by fundamentally changing how they stack. There's no need to help one at the expense of the other.

I think you're misunderstanding what's meant by HOTs stacking. And if you don't play PVP, that's understandable.

It isn't referencing stacking different healing abilities (radiating regen, healing spring, healing orbs, etc.)
It's about stacking the same morph 12 times.

Nothing about this effects PVE at all.

I don't think you understand endgame hard mode trials, but that's understandable.
Quite often during progs tanks or occasionally DDs will run heals to help out healers, especially during high damage phases like Lord Falgravn hard mode.

Your option of limiting heals to 2 instances of a particular heal will also have an effect if, as is pretty common, the Off Tank runs Powerful Assault which they often proc with vigour. With regen being mainly replaced by vigour one person would have to switch to an inferior heal just so PvPers stop crying. That's ridiculous and infair Your solution to a PvP problem will absolutely affect PvE.

ForumBully

No

Ishtarknows wrote: »

KingLewie_III wrote: »

Ishtarknows wrote: »

KingLewie_III wrote: »

This issue is exclusive to PVP.

In that case it needs a solution exclusive to PvP.

It is, it wouldn't affect PVE because you don't run more than 2 healers. I think folks are misunderstanding what's meant by heal stacking. It's not referring to having radiating regen, healing spring, healing orb, etc. all active. It's referring to the same named morph of a skill being stacked over and over again.

Ishtarknows wrote: »

In PVE absolutely. There's no way the most recent DLC trial hard modes can be completed without HoTs stacking .

In PvP - personally I don't care much for PvP, but if this complaint is all about that then HoTs need balanced by battle spirit not by fundamentally changing how they stack. There's no need to help one at the expense of the other.

I think you're misunderstanding what's meant by HOTs stacking. And if you don't play PVP, that's understandable.

It isn't referencing stacking different healing abilities (radiating regen, healing spring, healing orbs, etc.)
It's about stacking the same morph 12 times.

Nothing about this effects PVE at all.

I don't think you understand endgame hard mode trials, but that's understandable.
Quite often during progs tanks or occasionally DDs will run heals to help out healers, especially during high damage phases like Lord Falgravn hard mode.

Your option of limiting heals to 2 instances of a particular heal will also have an effect if, as is pretty common, the Off Tank runs Powerful Assault which they often proc with vigour. With regen being mainly replaced by vigour one person would have to switch to an inferior heal just so PvPers stop crying. That's ridiculous and infair Your solution to a PvP problem will absolutely affect PvE.

I'm sure there's a solution between no stacks and limitless stacks.

Billium813

No

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

KingLewie_III wrote: »

Ishtarknows wrote: »

In PVE absolutely. There's no way the most recent DLC trial hard modes can be completed without HoTs stacking .

In PvP - personally I don't care much for PvP, but if this complaint is all about that then HoTs need balanced by battle spirit not by fundamentally changing how they stack. There's no need to help one at the expense of the other.

This issue is exclusive to PVP. You don't run more than 2 healers in any PVE content and therefore would never have an instance of more than 2 stacks of the same HOT active at a time. Limiting HOTs to 2 stacks of each morph would solve the problem in PVP and would not affect PVE in any way.

Tanks often contribute to healing, sometimes even using a Restoration Staff (Falgravn HM). Vigor is more common, especially with some of the heal checks in newer trials (Taleria HM Maelstrom). Groups struggling with this content may even have a few DPS slot Vigor. Removing heal stacking in PVE would absolutely have consequences, particularly affecting progression groups.

Interesting. I wonder how often the development internal testing relies on additional healing from non-Healer roles and/or rely on Vigor...

If groups have to rely on heal stacking with 1-2 skills in the game to pass content, is that failure in the content design or the group being subpar but forcing it?

I don't think people want to admit how much of a crutch Vigor has become in ALL content...

WrathOfInnos

Yes

Billium813 wrote: »

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

KingLewie_III wrote: »

Ishtarknows wrote: »

In PVE absolutely. There's no way the most recent DLC trial hard modes can be completed without HoTs stacking .

In PvP - personally I don't care much for PvP, but if this complaint is all about that then HoTs need balanced by battle spirit not by fundamentally changing how they stack. There's no need to help one at the expense of the other.

This issue is exclusive to PVP. You don't run more than 2 healers in any PVE content and therefore would never have an instance of more than 2 stacks of the same HOT active at a time. Limiting HOTs to 2 stacks of each morph would solve the problem in PVP and would not affect PVE in any way.

Tanks often contribute to healing, sometimes even using a Restoration Staff (Falgravn HM). Vigor is more common, especially with some of the heal checks in newer trials (Taleria HM Maelstrom). Groups struggling with this content may even have a few DPS slot Vigor. Removing heal stacking in PVE would absolutely have consequences, particularly affecting progression groups.

Interesting. I wonder how often the development internal testing relies on additional healing from non-Healer roles and/or rely on Vigor...

If groups have to rely on heal stacking with 1-2 skills in the game to pass content, is that failure in the content design or the group being subpar but forcing it?

I don't think people want to admit how much of a crutch Vigor has become in ALL content...

Fair point. I don't think the change would affect top groups in PVE at all (and minimal affect to top groups in PVP). It is accurately described as a crutch, but I'm opposed to pulling crutches out from under one-legged players. That would cause them to fall.

Incoming damage is definitely overtuned on some of the HM's. Taleria is a good example because it forces the whole group to move during the heal check and makes ground HoTs ineffective. Falgravn has always just been a pure HPS check that many groups cannot complete with 2 healers. Even parts of Rockgrove are difficult healing checks, like the fact that Oax poison damage ramps up absurdly high and there is no way to cleanse after the pools go out. A few groups can make the DPS check for no-death, but most struggle to survive and keep ahead on rezzes.

KingLewie_III

No

Ishtarknows wrote: »

KingLewie_III wrote: »

Ishtarknows wrote: »

KingLewie_III wrote: »

This issue is exclusive to PVP.

In that case it needs a solution exclusive to PvP.

It is, it wouldn't affect PVE because you don't run more than 2 healers. I think folks are misunderstanding what's meant by heal stacking. It's not referring to having radiating regen, healing spring, healing orb, etc. all active. It's referring to the same named morph of a skill being stacked over and over again.

Ishtarknows wrote: »

In PVE absolutely. There's no way the most recent DLC trial hard modes can be completed without HoTs stacking .

In PvP - personally I don't care much for PvP, but if this complaint is all about that then HoTs need balanced by battle spirit not by fundamentally changing how they stack. There's no need to help one at the expense of the other.

I think you're misunderstanding what's meant by HOTs stacking. And if you don't play PVP, that's understandable.

It isn't referencing stacking different healing abilities (radiating regen, healing spring, healing orbs, etc.)
It's about stacking the same morph 12 times.

Nothing about this effects PVE at all.

I don't think you understand endgame hard mode trials, but that's understandable.
Quite often during progs tanks or occasionally DDs will run heals to help out healers, especially during high damage phases like Lord Falgravn hard mode.

Your option of limiting heals to 2 instances of a particular heal will also have an effect if, as is pretty common, the Off Tank runs Powerful Assault which they often proc with vigour. With regen being mainly replaced by vigour one person would have to switch to an inferior heal just so PvPers stop crying. That's ridiculous and infair Your solution to a PvP problem will absolutely affect PvE.

No I understand HM trials and have completed the vast majority of them lol. Which is why I'm confident in saying you don't need more than two of the same morph to complete the content. In true end game, none of the DPS have anything slotted that doesn't do damage. Are there groups that do anyways? yes. Is it necessary or optimal, no.

Just for clarification, which morph of vigor are you talking about? because you can proc powerful assault with Resolving Vigor which doesn't heal anyone except yourself making it irrelevant in this discussion.

Barrier has always been the go-to for high damage mechanics.

KingLewie_III

No

But don't take my word for it. Watch this video and tell me when more than 2 instances of any given heal are active. Spoiler Warning: It never happens.

https://youtu.be/ZwvR_DGEDgg

Billium813

No

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

Billium813 wrote: »

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

KingLewie_III wrote: »

Ishtarknows wrote: »

In PVE absolutely. There's no way the most recent DLC trial hard modes can be completed without HoTs stacking .

In PvP - personally I don't care much for PvP, but if this complaint is all about that then HoTs need balanced by battle spirit not by fundamentally changing how they stack. There's no need to help one at the expense of the other.

This issue is exclusive to PVP. You don't run more than 2 healers in any PVE content and therefore would never have an instance of more than 2 stacks of the same HOT active at a time. Limiting HOTs to 2 stacks of each morph would solve the problem in PVP and would not affect PVE in any way.

Tanks often contribute to healing, sometimes even using a Restoration Staff (Falgravn HM). Vigor is more common, especially with some of the heal checks in newer trials (Taleria HM Maelstrom). Groups struggling with this content may even have a few DPS slot Vigor. Removing heal stacking in PVE would absolutely have consequences, particularly affecting progression groups.

Interesting. I wonder how often the development internal testing relies on additional healing from non-Healer roles and/or rely on Vigor...

If groups have to rely on heal stacking with 1-2 skills in the game to pass content, is that failure in the content design or the group being subpar but forcing it?

I don't think people want to admit how much of a crutch Vigor has become in ALL content...

Fair point. I don't think the change would affect top groups in PVE at all (and minimal affect to top groups in PVP). It is accurately described as a crutch, but I'm opposed to pulling crutches out from under one-legged players. That would cause them to fall.

Incoming damage is definitely overtuned on some of the HM's. Taleria is a good example because it forces the whole group to move during the heal check and makes ground HoTs ineffective. Falgravn has always just been a pure HPS check that many groups cannot complete with 2 healers. Even parts of Rockgrove are difficult healing checks, like the fact that Oax poison damage ramps up absurdly high and there is no way to cleanse after the pools go out. A few groups can make the DPS check for no-death, but most struggle to survive and keep ahead on rezzes.

I completely agree with the notion of pulling crutches out from under players and how caution needs to be exercised when doing so! HOWEVER, that doesn't mean crutches shouldn't be adjusted as often and as elegantly as possible! If ZOS doesn't, players can become so helplessly dependent on 1-2 skills that it can completely throw off the whole balance of the game! Those skills become so ingrained into how the game is balanced that to adjust any one of them has FAR REACHING ramifications in almost all content. And players wonder why ZOS is loathe to change heal stacking?! They painted themselves into a corner.

This is DOUBLY true for defensive skills like Vigor, or even Orbs (sustain). For instance, what if ZOS completely removed Vigor from the game? I really do think it would be an absolute catastrophe! This one skill has a deeper root in the player base than anyone seems to want to admit. Go look at every PvP build that exists. 90% of them run Vigor; IRRESPECTIVE OF CLASS! Why doesn't anyone seem to acknowledge this as an issue?!?! No one skills should be that ubiquitous!

KingLewie_III

No

@Billium813 What point are you trying to make? Vigor is widely used because it's accessible to everyone and one of the best HOTs in the game, and Resolving Vigor also gives Minor Resolve, which is valuable in PVP. When hybridization came around, Vigor received less of a nerf than Regeneration, and with it not being tied to a weapon skill line, became the obvious choice to be put on your skill bar.

Durham

No

No they should not stack period huge problem in PVP. There should be a different ruleset in PVP IMO ... The playerbase has requested this since 2016!

The_Titan_Tim

No

Same name abilities should not stack, they should refresh. What I mean by this, is that if you have an ongoing 2,000 heal per second Rapid Regen, and you get hit by a 1,000 per second Rapid Regen from another source; you retain the 2,000 Rapid Regen, while resetting the duration of the heal.

Weaker heals should refresh durations, larger heals should replace weaker ones.

Different name heals should stack. If your group wants to truly comp, it should be an engaging endeavor; looking for as many sources of healing as possible from different sources and sacrificing in other areas to accomplish this.

If HoTs were to receive a stack limitation, there would need to be a nerf to bombing aswell, and I’m not talking about Boneyard, but sets like Plaguebreak and Master’s Cleave because we’ve allowed proc sets to get out of control as a means to counter all of the healing problems currently.

MidniteOwl1913

Ishtarknows wrote: »

In PVE absolutely. There's no way the most recent DLC trial hard modes can be completed without HoTs stacking .

In PvP - personally I don't care much for PvP, but if this complaint is all about that then HoTs need balanced by battle spirit not by fundamentally changing how they stack. There's no need to help one at the expense of the other.

Agreed it's long past time to stop solving PVP's problems by hurting PVE.

Dr_Con

MidniteOwl1913

Durham wrote: »

No they should not stack period huge problem in PVP. There should be a different ruleset in PVP IMO ... The playerbase has requested this since 2016!

And they haven't done it. They aren't going to do it. They have nerfed *all* healing. Enough!

Billium813

No

KingLewie_III wrote: »

@Billium813 What point are you trying to make? Vigor is widely used because it's accessible to everyone and one of the best HOTs in the game, and Resolving Vigor also gives Minor Resolve, which is valuable in PVP. When hybridization came around, Vigor received less of a nerf than Regeneration, and with it not being tied to a weapon skill line, became the obvious choice to be put on your skill bar.

My point is that ZOS can't get rid of heal stacking or Vigor. We, and ESO in general, are hopelessly dependent on it. Everything has been balanced for years on it. It's one of the pillars at this point and ZOS would have to remodel the entire house to remove that support beam.

... and it's a pity they've painted themselves into this corner.

KingLewie_III

No

Billium813 wrote: »

KingLewie_III wrote: »

@Billium813 What point are you trying to make? Vigor is widely used because it's accessible to everyone and one of the best HOTs in the game, and Resolving Vigor also gives Minor Resolve, which is valuable in PVP. When hybridization came around, Vigor received less of a nerf than Regeneration, and with it not being tied to a weapon skill line, became the obvious choice to be put on your skill bar.

My point is that ZOS can't get rid of heal stacking or Vigor. We, and ESO in general, are hopelessly dependent on it. Everything has been balanced for years on it. It's one of the pillars at this point and ZOS would have to remodel the entire house to remove that support beam.

... and it's a pity they've painted themselves into this corner.

The only person that said anything about removing Vigor from the game is you. You're acting as if this level of heal stacking is fundamental to the entire game, which isnt true. It is only present in open world PVP, as that's the only instance where more than 2 healers are present in a group at a time. For the umpteenth time, this change would have no effect to end game PVE, and if it doesn't affect those running the most difficult content the game has to offer, there's no logical explanation why anyone else would require it.

Billium813

No

KingLewie_III wrote: »

Billium813 wrote: »

KingLewie_III wrote: »

@Billium813 What point are you trying to make? Vigor is widely used because it's accessible to everyone and one of the best HOTs in the game, and Resolving Vigor also gives Minor Resolve, which is valuable in PVP. When hybridization came around, Vigor received less of a nerf than Regeneration, and with it not being tied to a weapon skill line, became the obvious choice to be put on your skill bar.

My point is that ZOS can't get rid of heal stacking or Vigor. We, and ESO in general, are hopelessly dependent on it. Everything has been balanced for years on it. It's one of the pillars at this point and ZOS would have to remodel the entire house to remove that support beam.

... and it's a pity they've painted themselves into this corner.

The only person that said anything about removing Vigor from the game is you. You're acting as if this level of heal stacking is fundamental to the entire game, which isnt true. It is only present in open world PVP, as that's the only instance where more than 2 healers are present in a group at a time. For the umpteenth time, this change would have no effect to end game PVE, and if it doesn't affect those running the most difficult content the game has to offer, there's no logical explanation why anyone else would require it.

I don't think you've read the whole conversation and I don't know why you are taking it so personal that I would state Vigor is overly pervasive in ESO as it is. I was talking about players having crutches in the game, how 98% of players run Vigor currently just to get through all kinds of content, and how that seems to be more of an issue with Vigor than heal stacking.

You can go ahead and advocate for whatever change you want. There isn't some consensus on what the correct change is and you assume I'm reading whatever it is you seem to be advocating for. I'm not sold that the only issue here is Echoing Vigor; there is a fundamental issue with player access to healing and the ubiquitous use of Vigor by players shows that.

You're injecting yourself into the conversation and assuming I'm talking about whatever change you are talking about. There's multiple people talking here and it isn't all for your stuff.

Billium813 wrote: »

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

Tanks often contribute to healing, sometimes even using a Restoration Staff (Falgravn HM). Vigor is more common, especially with some of the heal checks in newer trials (Taleria HM Maelstrom). Groups struggling with this content may even have a few DPS slot Vigor. Removing heal stacking in PVE would absolutely have consequences, particularly affecting progression groups.

Interesting. I wonder how often the development internal testing relies on additional healing from non-Healer roles and/or rely on Vigor...

If groups have to rely on heal stacking with 1-2 skills in the game to pass content, is that failure in the content design or the group being subpar but forcing it?

I don't think people want to admit how much of a crutch Vigor has become in ALL content...

KingLewie_III

No

@Billium813 I'm not taking anything personal, I'm just trying to make sense of what you're talking about. Echoing Vigor was just a common example that's being thrown around in this thread. I feel like you're trying to make some profound statement and just getting lost in the weeds along the way. When you say, "clearing content," that's a reference to PVE content, which is not an environment where stacking HOTS is being abused, that issue is exclusive to PVP.

Feljax

No

Also, make healing its own stat separate from weapon/spell damage. Make healers matter. I want to be a PvP HEALER. Not a buff bot.

TechMaybeHic

Yes

Feljax wrote: »

Also, make healing its own stat separate from weapon/spell damage. Make healers matter. I want to be a PvP HEALER. Not a buff bot.

Healers do matter in groups without gimping people that want to run more independent. Having a true healer frees up their team to be using their GCD for offense.

What you are asking for, is to effectively make a healer required.

StaticWave

No

Large fights would not last as long and lag wouldn't be as bad if there weren't so many HoTs being thrown around lol

Ishtarknows

Yes

KingLewie_III wrote: »

But don't take my word for it. Watch this video and tell me when more than 2 instances of any given heal are active. Spoiler Warning: It never happens.

https://youtu.be/ZwvR_DGEDgg

I didn't need to watch, the title told me what I needed to know - that's a Dawnbringer run, and so is quite obviously the end result of a prog. In my DB prog we also had 2 healers and no other heals, but progression groups start from different places. Some groups need crutches while they get the hang of mechanics, and some groups will possibly never see a no death run or hit the speed requirements but are capable of completing the Hard Modes by using more defensive tactics.
This proposal will greatly limit their options and for that reason I disagree.

WrathOfInnos

Yes

Ishtarknows wrote: »

KingLewie_III wrote: »

But don't take my word for it. Watch this video and tell me when more than 2 instances of any given heal are active. Spoiler Warning: It never happens.

https://youtu.be/ZwvR_DGEDgg

I didn't need to watch, the title told me what I needed to know - that's a Dawnbringer run, and so is quite obviously the end result of a prog. In my DB prog we also had 2 healers and no other heals, but progression groups start from different places. Some groups need crutches while they get the hang of mechanics, and some groups will possibly never see a no death run or hit the speed requirements but are capable of completing the Hard Modes by using more defensive tactics.
This proposal will greatly limit their options and for that reason I disagree.

I'll add that having 2 instances of the same heal, which occurs many times in that video, IS an example of heal stacking. Anyone who supports that concept should answer "yes" to the poll.

No heal stacking would mean the same heal cannot be applied to you twice. We've been down that road, it was not fun, it was fixed. Let's not go back.

ForumBully

No

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

Ishtarknows wrote: »

KingLewie_III wrote: »

But don't take my word for it. Watch this video and tell me when more than 2 instances of any given heal are active. Spoiler Warning: It never happens.

https://youtu.be/ZwvR_DGEDgg

I didn't need to watch, the title told me what I needed to know - that's a Dawnbringer run, and so is quite obviously the end result of a prog. In my DB prog we also had 2 healers and no other heals, but progression groups start from different places. Some groups need crutches while they get the hang of mechanics, and some groups will possibly never see a no death run or hit the speed requirements but are capable of completing the Hard Modes by using more defensive tactics.
This proposal will greatly limit their options and for that reason I disagree.

I'll add that having 2 instances of the same heal, which occurs many times in that video, IS an example of heal stacking. Anyone who supports that concept should answer "yes" to the poll.

No heal stacking would mean the same heal cannot be applied to you twice. We've been down that road, it was not fun, it was fixed. Let's not go back.

I think there's valid disagreement about stacking at all, and possible agreement about to what degree heals should stack.
Maybe there's a need for same-name stacking of more than 1 or 2, but 12?
People voting "No" aren't opposing progression PvE groups potentially needing 2 to 3 stacks, but rather the unlimited stacking and it's unbalancing effect in PvP.
There's a balance somewhere between 1 and infinite.

Billium813

No

The debate seems to be boiling down to "How much heal stacking is OK?"

Players that want NO heal stacking just seem to want nerf ball groups in PvP.
Players that want SOME heal stacking just seem to want to allow PvE groups to have a crutch for passing heal checks.
Players that want to keep ALL heal stacking seem to just want players to have access to a good heal.

IMO, the existence of heal stacking has created the issues that make players want to cling to heal stacking from Echoing Vigor.

Iv been running PUG vet HM groups for years. Echoing Vigor is that 1 go-to skill everyone starts running when the group just wants to force content they are no ready for. The existence of 3-4 heal stacks with Echoing Vigor often times allows a terrible group to force the content anyway. Is your healer not very good? Have 2 people run Echoing Vigor and that'll most likely cover it. In fact, often 3-4 Echoing Vigor's can COMPLETELY REPLACE a dedicated healer role!

Question: Should that be allowed; are we ok with this crutch?

I think most people would say "yes" for PvE. I mean, "who cares", right? A bad healer shouldn't prevent a group from completing content, right? If the Tank is bad, ok the group has to disband. If the DPS is bad, ok the group has to disband. But if the Healer is bad, we can just run 2-3 Echoing Vigor and ignore them, right?

My controversial take is that skills like Echoing Vigor are too strong, to the point where 2-3 can completely replace the Healer role. Heal stacking has a large part in making it that strong. But what can we do? If we remove heal stacking, some subpar groups are going to start to struggle with Vet content! Is that bad?