Should HoTs stack?

i11ionward

Just look at the picture

mmtaniac

No

No with identical named.

Yes if different name.

Echoing Vigor x 10 NO on one person.

Echoing Vigor x1 + Rapid Regeneration x1 YES on one person.

This way most stronger should stay always. Weaker spell should be replaced by stronger.

i11ionward

No

mmtaniac wrote: »

No with identical named.

Yes if different name.

Echoing Vigor x 10 NO on one person.

Echoing Vigor x1 + Rapid Regeneration x1 YES on one person.

This way most stronger should stay always. Weaker spell should be replaced by stronger.

Totally agree

Araneae6537

No

mmtaniac wrote: »

No with identical named.

Yes if different name.

Echoing Vigor x 10 NO on one person.

Echoing Vigor x1 + Rapid Regeneration x1 YES on one person.

This way most stronger should stay always. Weaker spell should be replaced by stronger.

Agreed. I’m against nerfing healers in a way that would hurt PVE healing or small/casual groups in PVP, but so many stacks of the SAME heal on one person does strike me as absurd!

I think it would be in line with the rest of the game too — When healing trials, I coordinate CP and gear with the other healer in part because most such effects don’t stack.

React

No

No, they should be limited to two (2) of any specific morph.

You should be able to have two radiant regens and two echoing vigors, but not 3 radiating regens or 3 echoing vigors.

Doing this wouldn't affect PVE - there are never more than two healers present in any hardmode/veteran PVE content.

gariondavey

No

React wrote: »

No, they should be limited to two (2) of any specific morph.

You should be able to have two radiant regens and two echoing vigors, but not 3 radiating regens or 3 echoing vigors.

Doing this wouldn't affect PVE - there are never more than two healers present in any hardmode/veteran PVE content.

This is 100 percent the best solution and won't affect pve

Tommy_The_Gun

No

In pvp only, at the very least there should be a cap of how many same effects there can be stacked on one player. However that creates other dilemma / logical problem. If there will be some kind of HoT cap, then what about DoT effects cap ?

tomofhyrule

No

In PvE, there are very few circumstances where you have more than two people pumping out Radiating. Maybe a few more times where a lot of people can pump vigors, but the 'standard' setup is two healers in a group of 12.

I think it wouldn't affect PvE much at all if the same heal couldn't stack more than twice. But then that would really help with the PvP scene.

Billium813

No

I'd be interested in hearing the explanation for this design from the development team. Or if anyone can dig up quotes on this discussion from the past. There must be some reason the dev team has elected to implement it this way... right?

katorga

No

1 copy of each named morph, subsequent copies refresh the timer.

Of course they would need to adjust battle spirit at that point because individual damage is already over the top.

KingLewie_III

No

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

In pvp only, at the very least there should be a cap of how many same effects there can be stacked on one player. However that creates other dilemma / logical problem. If there will be some kind of HoT cap, then what about DoT effects cap ?

Purges already exist to counter DOTs and can be obtained either through sets or abilities. But there's nothing to counter a group of people stacking HOTs to the point that they're essentially unkillable.

Howda

No

i11ionward wrote: »

Just look at the picture

Healing should be a named buff, minor heal major heal, grand heal.

Few categories. Even if they stack they should stack twice. Like original and +1 per person. If you are already affected by minor Healing you cannot be affected again etc, or you can be affected only one more time. So it won't kill the two healers set ups in trials.

The state of Healing is highly affecting PvP atm on performance, design, dopamine shots and desire to play.

Billium813

No

KingLewie_III wrote: »

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

In pvp only, at the very least there should be a cap of how many same effects there can be stacked on one player. However that creates other dilemma / logical problem. If there will be some kind of HoT cap, then what about DoT effects cap ?

Purges already exist to counter DOTs and can be obtained either through sets or abilities. But there's nothing to counter a group of people stacking HOTs to the point that they're essentially unkillable.

Not since they removed the Befoul CP passive and nerfed Defile into the ground.

Personally, I'd like to see Templar's Dawn's Wrath focus more on hurting enemies healing. I think Healing, both their allies and enemies, are well within the classes identity. It's not a great identity to have for PvE, where enemies don't really heal much, but Unstable Core and Dark Flare could be great PvP skills for Templars to combat enemies healing.

Soarora

Yes, but only to two stacks.

UNSeki

No

HoTs and DoTs that share the same name should either be capped or have significant diminishing returns on 2nd sources.

Dr_Con

not to that extent, no. ZOS don't seem to want to address the issue directly, people argue against it saying that there's power in numbers- and while that's true there would still be power in numbers with hots not stacking. it's a feature being abused right now.

WrathOfInnos

Yes

This is not a simple issue. You can also ask "Should my chosen heal do nothing if someone else on my random BG team has the same ability?" Single instance heals were problematic.

The devs had a good reason to make heals stack, and for years it did not cause any significant problems. What is different now? Damage too low (DoTs and burst nerfed)? Tank meta (strong sets and access to defensive buffs)? There is surely a better solution.

acastanza_ESO

No

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

This is not a simple issue. You can also ask "Should my chosen heal do nothing if someone else on my random BG team has the same ability?" Single instance heals were problematic.

The devs had a good reason to make heals stack, and for years it did not cause any significant problems. What is different now? Damage too low (DoTs and burst nerfed)? Tank meta (strong sets and access to defensive buffs)? There is surely a better solution.

There is an extremely easy solution there. Allow new casts to refresh the duration (and, if the tooltip is higher, increase the healing done). There, your heal no longer "does nothing".

The idea that it "hasn't caused significant problems for years" is untrue. It's been accurately identified as a major problem in the PVP community for exactly as long.

I've said it before in many places, you should only be able to benefit from two instances of any given heal at any time - maybe three. This allows for the standard composition of two healers, with your self heal to fill any gaps. Or, if allowed to stack three times, three healers for particularly difficult content, or for two healers and your own self heal. But absolutely no more than that.

Billium813

No

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

This is not a simple issue. You can also ask "Should my chosen heal do nothing if someone else on my random BG team has the same ability?" Single instance heals were problematic.

The devs had a good reason to make heals stack, and for years it did not cause any significant problems. What is different now? Damage too low (DoTs and burst nerfed)? Tank meta (strong sets and access to defensive buffs)? There is surely a better solution.

Totally agree that this isn't a simple issue. I think the major complication is that ZOS has been balancing sets and skill for YEARS on this interaction in PvP and completely getting rid of it would undoubtedly up-end large swathes of code and require massive rebalancing. Hell, they might even find that Battle Spirit could be altered to allow more healing!?

However, it isn't that this is suddenly an issue out of the blue. This has ALWAYS been an issue, but ZOS has been quietly trying to mitigate the issue with new sets (Plaguebreak, DC, now SitS) and Vigor nerfs and Defile changes. They have been doing EVERYTHING to try to save heal stacking in PvP...

Perhaps they are afraid to remove this toolkit from ball groups; maybe they are worried ball groups need this crutch? What's next, go after shield stacking? Where is the line? Maybe that's what ZOS is thinking. But they keep pumping out these lukewarm answers to a systemic problem, that has been quietly accepted for years. What's changed is that the issue has more focus on it than ever before as it's obvious ZOS is trying to give players tools to combat the issue without having to actually make such a fundamental change to a set of skills that 98% of players use.

TechMaybeHic

Yes

I'm going to say yes, but they should have a CD on the tic you receive similar to sets to once per half second or second to where subsequent hots fill the gap, and HOTs can then be balanced and vary depending on frequency and size of tic and duration but effectively limits how many can be running

If they do that with DOTs as well, numbers should be adjusted and a readily available HOT removal mechanic should exist

Alchimiste1

No

not from the same skill

Rasande_Robin

No

Same buff should max stack 3 times... Not 12 echoing vigor's from 12 players... thats 144 active vigors...

Billium813

No

Rasande_Robin wrote: »

Same buff should max stack 3 times... Not 12 echoing vigor's from 12 players... thats 144 active vigors...

That doesn't sound right

OBJnoob

Yes

1 person should have 1 vigor on them. A group of 2 should be able to have 2. A group of 3 should be able to have 3. A group of 12 should be able to have 12.

All things being equal (skill, gear, CP, etc,) 2 players should beat 1. 3 should beat 2. 12 should beat 11.

Sometimes things aren't equal and 1 person can beat 2. 2 people can beat 3. 4 people can beat 12. 12 people can beat 30.

Sometimes things are equal and the only inequality is the number of people. It is right for the bigger group to win in these circumstances.

Seeking to create inequality where there is equality is wrong. Seeking to make equality by introducing inequality is also wrong. Fair does not equal equal. I would prefer things be fair. I didn't word that very well-- but hopefully you all know what I meant.

Vevvev

Rasande_Robin wrote: »

Same buff should max stack 3 times... Not 12 echoing vigor's from 12 players... thats 144 active vigors...

12 per person so still only 12 vigors total, but server side calculation wise it'd be 144. The inclusion of 144 from a player's perspective is a little misleading since all the players see on an individual character basis is a max of 12.

Billium813

No

OBJnoob wrote: »

All things being equal (skill, gear, CP, etc,) 2 players should beat 1. 3 should beat 2. 12 should beat 11.

It seems like your ignoring WHY 2 players should beat 1. Should it be because they out heal the 1 person? Or because there are literally 2 of them, with twice the potential action output (damage and healing)?

Healing shouldn't be the make or break. In a 2 v 1, that one person should be able to make a go of it. That one person may be able to take out 1 of the 2 opponents, or at least get close. Of course the 1 be at a disadvantage, all things being equal, since they are literally out numbered by 100%, but it isn't strictly because the larger group can outheal the other, it's because they have more actions and the solo person can only do so much with their actions.

Once you start getting to 5 v 6 though, this whole argument completely loses merit; it isn't that cut and dry. Group buff and healing durations are now overlapping, collective resource pools are exceeding the drain from the other group, it isnt that clear who should be the clear victor and coordination becomes way more important.

Thecompton73

No

Edit: No comment

OBJnoob

Yes

It is fine for 12 to beat 1 and it is also fine for 1 to beat 12. What isn't fine is to create limitations that artificially deflate the natural strength of numbers.

I don't know why you find me so irrational and stupid @Thecompton73

I will try to keep my posts shorter. Perhaps I am babbling and muddying my own point. It's a VERY simple point and not irrational at all.

Thecompton73

No

OBJnoob wrote: »

It is fine for 12 to beat 1 and it is also fine for 1 to beat 12. What isn't fine is to create limitations that artificially deflate the natural strength of numbers.

I don't know why you find me so irrational and stupid @Thecompton73

I will try to keep my posts shorter. Perhaps I am babbling and muddying my own point. It's a VERY simple point and not irrational at all.

I never said anything about you being stupid. But you will argue in one post greater numbers should always win but then in another claim it's perfectly fine for 12 people to stack enough heals that 50 people, including some using siege, can't kill them as they run the bigger group over again and again farming AP. Those are completely contradictory statements and to be able to hold both positions as valid at the same time is to defy rationality.
People aren't arguing because they want to "deflate the natural strength of numbers" they want that strength to be restored. Whether it's 12v20, 12v30, 12v40 or 12v50, when there are sufficiently greater numbers there needs to be a point in which heal stacking and LOSing and cross buffing each other with 15 different set bonuses is overcome. For every battle in history where smaller numbers used skill, gear and tactics to win a fight there are a hundred where the smaller force might decimate twice their own number yet the math of attrition can't be overcome when the enemy starts with 5X their force.

bachpain

No

mmtaniac wrote: »

No with identical named.

Yes if different name.

Echoing Vigor x 10 NO on one person.

Echoing Vigor x1 + Rapid Regeneration x1 YES on one person.

This way most stronger should stay always. Weaker spell should be replaced by stronger.

THIS and allow the strongest to be the one that takes precedent over the others.

Rasande_Robin

No

Billium813 wrote: »

Rasande_Robin wrote: »

Same buff should max stack 3 times... Not 12 echoing vigor's from 12 players... thats 144 active vigors...

That doesn't sound right

Imagine casting echoing vigor alone, the "effectiveness" of that vigor is 1/12 of how effective it could be.

"Heal stacking" is unbalanced because there is no hard counter to it such as cleanse on "dots" so dot stacking is not as effective.
Basically making it easier to survive than to kill...

The "Ballgroup" with the most "Negates" win (basically the only hard counter to heal-stacking).