Multiple Instances of Echoing Vigor / Regeneration Buff on Group Members is Broken...

godchucknzilla

Multiple Instances of Echoing Vigor / Regeneration Buff on Group Members is Broken, We a Need Cap to One Instance of these Buffs Per Player..

I can only test this on 2 players and it indeed puts two instances of these healing buffs on both players. I'm hearing you can have 10+ instances of Echoing Vigor rolling on you if you an your 11 other group members get close and cast this skill. If this is the case, this is busted. I'm also assuming Restoration staff regeneration does the same thing. Hot's need to be capped 1 instance per player and only refreshed on reapplication. There is no way anyone should have 12 instances of Echoing Vigor on themselves. I can't believe this is live and enabling garbage players to group up and run around in circles griefing enemy players in keeps for hours.

ForumBully

Yes it is. ZoS refuses to accept it and instead their brainchild Snake in the Stars was born to punish us all regardless of context.
It's just simpler than addressing the ridiculous stacking mechanics.

godchucknzilla

The Echoing Vigor animation is also a huge lag generator when cast by 12 people simultaneously.

ForumBully

Have the devs ever even talked about heal stacking? I can't recall. In addition to being hugely imbalanced when cast by multiple players in PvP, it absolutely dumbs down healing and promotes multiple people casting the same skill.
Thanks to healing scaling in the exact same way as damage, every damage setup is a part time healer casting these [snip] heals because every other way is less effective [snip]

[Edited for Baiting]

godchucknzilla

You can't have 12 instances of Major Courage, imagine that one, haha.

React

Yeah, heal stacking absolutely needs to be addressed. They seemingly just acknowledged it as problematic for the first time ever in the developer comment for snake in the stars. Unfortunately snake in the stars does absolutely nothing to ball groups abusing this mechanic, because you can only apply it to a single person once every 12 seconds. While adding sets to combat this issue is an awful idea, I certainly hope that if they're dead set on adding snake in the stars, they make it a proper counter to ball groups by removing the caster's 12s application cooldown.

The best solution is to only allow two instances of ANY specific heal over time morph on a player at once. So for example, a player can have two echoing vigors and 2 radiating regens at once, but not 3 echoing vigors or 3 radiating regens at once. This doesn't affect any veteran/hardmode PVE content as they never run more than two healers at the most, and immediately solves the heal stacking issue in PVP. * The same adjustment must be applied to ground hots too, to avoid ball groups immediately swapping to spring spam.

Here is a fun picture demonstrating what your buff tracker typically will look like while standing inside the average 12 man "ball group". This is 11 echoing vigors and two radiating regens being sourced from 12 players (I don't have either of these skills slotted).

acastanza_ESO

This is the #1 mechanic abused by ballgroups.
ZOS refuses to address it. They clearly know that this is a problem, but rather than actually addressing the cause - setting reasonable limits on how these abilies stack, they seem intent on slapping an ill-considered bandaid on the problem.

The real solution is actually extremely simple. Limit HOTs to two instances of any given source. The reason for two instead of one is simple; it would allow you to benefit from a self-heal and a heal from a dedicated healer, or from the "standard" group composition of two dedicated healers.

There would probably be some technical challenges here. Like the need to decide "priority" for effects, but that should be easily resolved by favoring the self-cast source, and the source with the largest tooltip, and allowing other casts to simply refresh the existing/larger tooltip casts.

If ZOS was to actually do this, it would be a massive improvement to the state of PVP literally overnight.

Stx

I think the biggest issue here isn’t that the same heal can be cast multiple times on one target. I think the issue is that aoe instant cast HoTs just shouldn’t be a thing. Also HoTs heal for too much.

If you look at other games (I’m going to use WoW) when in a large PvP group, you can have multiple earth shields, multiple rejuvenations, multiple renews. But these spells aren’t just applied to four players with one button press. You have to target a player and apply the hot, then tab to another player. They also heal for a much smaller % of player max Hp compared to hots in ESO, so the stacking isn’t so imbalanced.

The_Titan_Tim

Yeah, this is a massive problem. Probably the most significant one that Cyrodiil faces, heal stacking gives players complete immunity to anything but bombs when in large groups.

MidniteOwl1913

This particular complaint has been around for years. In U35 ZOS nerfed RR across the board followed by a nerf to Vigor in U36 to address the PVP ball group complaints. It was an utter failure. Ball groups just adjusted and healers in PVE as still feeling the pain.

I don't know why they haven't instead of overall nerfs just limited stacks, but at this point I don't think it going happen.

WrathOfInnos

A few years ago, many heals only allowed a single instance to be applied to a player. This was broken for other reasons. It meant that a different player's skill choices could make your skill fail to work at all.

There were no checks of whether the random's heals were ticking higher than your own, or how much duration was remaining. This resulted in scenarios where the healers couldn't even proc certain sets (like SPC) because others already cast the same heals/morphs on allies. Having your entire build negated by another player was not good design. The new system has its flaws, but it is an improvement over the old. At least now you know that casting a heal will have some effect on those around you.

godchucknzilla

If vigor can do this then so should majo

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

A few years ago, many heals only allowed a single instance to be applied to a player. This was broken for other reasons. It meant that a different player's skill choices could make your skill fail to work at all.

There were no checks of whether the random's heals were ticking higher than your own, or how much duration was remaining. This resulted in scenarios where the healers couldn't even proc certain sets (like SPC) because others already cast the same heals/morphs on allies. Having your entire build negated by another player was not good design. The new system has its flaws, but it is an improvement over the old. At least now you know that casting a heal will have some effect on those around you.

The sets that have a "probelm's proccing" need to be addressed individually then. There's no reason to leave a toxic mechanic in the game because some sets have a "probelm's proccing." I guarrantee you in an organized group nothing is going to have a "probelm's proccing.'

Thecompton73

The_Titan_Tim wrote: »

Yeah, this is a massive problem. Probably the most significant one that Cyrodiil faces, heal stacking gives players complete immunity to anything but bombs when in large groups.

Bombs very rarely do anything to these groups. You hit a good bomb that takes a cvouple of them to 10% but before you can hit a follow up 15 hots tick for 1.5K each and they're back over 80%. If they die It takes an hour of being blasted by 40 people and every siege possible until they slip up and make a mistake by spreading out a bit too much. Most of the keep trolls by ballgroups end with them killing everyone so many times they stop getting AP so they leave to do it to the other alliance for a while.
I just don't get how they're even having fun, the broken mechanics and sets are doing everything for them. I imagine the people who enjoy that play style probably look up cheat codes for single player games then set them to the easiest mode so they can get the same feeling of being invincible.

WrathOfInnos

godchucknzilla wrote: »

If vigor can do this then so should majo

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

A few years ago, many heals only allowed a single instance to be applied to a player. This was broken for other reasons. It meant that a different player's skill choices could make your skill fail to work at all.

There were no checks of whether the random's heals were ticking higher than your own, or how much duration was remaining. This resulted in scenarios where the healers couldn't even proc certain sets (like SPC) because others already cast the same heals/morphs on allies. Having your entire build negated by another player was not good design. The new system has its flaws, but it is an improvement over the old. At least now you know that casting a heal will have some effect on those around you.

The sets that have a "probelm's proccing" need to be addressed individually then. There's no reason to leave a toxic mechanic in the game because some sets have a "probelm's proccing." I guarrantee you in an organized group nothing is going to have a "probelm's proccing.'

Sets not proccing only part of the problem though. Skill casts having no effect is frustrating, and that is why devs fixed that problem years ago.

I also don't think removing stacking vigor/regeneration even hurts ball groups. They plan and coordinate, and will just determine which specific heal and morph each group member will use (one unmorphed vigor, one echoing vigor, one radiating regen, one circle of protection, one circle of preservation, one energy orb, one illustrious, one springs, one grand healing, etc.). Optimized groups will find the meta and remain difficult to kill. Instead this would end up disproportionately affecting pug groups, where all 4-12 players may be counting on using the same skill morph. It's not like you can port and and change morph after entering a random BG group. Everyone's skill casts should be effective.

ForumBully

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

godchucknzilla wrote: »

If vigor can do this then so should majo

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

A few years ago, many heals only allowed a single instance to be applied to a player. This was broken for other reasons. It meant that a different player's skill choices could make your skill fail to work at all.

There were no checks of whether the random's heals were ticking higher than your own, or how much duration was remaining. This resulted in scenarios where the healers couldn't even proc certain sets (like SPC) because others already cast the same heals/morphs on allies. Having your entire build negated by another player was not good design. The new system has its flaws, but it is an improvement over the old. At least now you know that casting a heal will have some effect on those around you.

The sets that have a "probelm's proccing" need to be addressed individually then. There's no reason to leave a toxic mechanic in the game because some sets have a "probelm's proccing." I guarrantee you in an organized group nothing is going to have a "probelm's proccing.'

Sets not proccing only part of the problem though. Skill casts having no effect is frustrating, and that is why devs fixed that problem years ago.

I also don't think removing stacking vigor/regeneration even hurts ball groups. They plan and coordinate, and will just determine which specific heal and morph each group member will use (one unmorphed vigor, one echoing vigor, one radiating regen, one circle of protection, one circle of preservation, one energy orb, one illustrious, one springs, one grand healing, etc.). Optimized groups will find the meta and remain difficult to kill. Instead this would end up disproportionately affecting pug groups, where all 4-12 players may be counting on using the same skill morph. It's not like you can port and and change morph after entering a random BG group. Everyone's skill casts should be effective.

Just declaring nothing can be done so do nothing isn't a good reason. If groups adjust and remain strong, great, organized play should always beat disorganized. That doesn't make heal stacking a good idea.

Billium813

ForumBully wrote: »

Yes it is. ZoS refuses to accept it and instead their brainchild Snake in the Stars was born to punish us all regardless of context.
It's just simpler than addressing the ridiculous stacking mechanics.

Unfortunately, creating a set to address a skill mechanic is not the correct way of going about it. If players don't use the set, then nothing has been solved.

TBC, I love SitS in theory. I think shutting down healing and punishing excessive healing should be way more widespread in ESO. But it's a slippery slope though (PvE vs PvP, feel bads, balancing). Look at when they eliminated Befoul and nerfed Defile into the ground. ZOS doesn't classically like punishing healing and I think it makes sense. Reducing healing makes players die faster -> dead players aren't having fun. Plus, punishing healing (or just cutting it off entirely) is confusing to players; it's kinda anti obvious that you are dying from too much heals or that you are activating something on YOURSELF and it isn't doing much anymore.

SitS is a new test in this field and it'll be interesting to watch. Personally, I think effects like SitS should be brought into Templar's Dawns Wrath. I'd love to see Unstable Core do something VERY similar. It might just help Templar become less trivial in PvP, rather than competing with other classes (like DK) over pure damage, give Templars more of a class identity toolkit.

React

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

godchucknzilla wrote: »

If vigor can do this then so should majo

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

A few years ago, many heals only allowed a single instance to be applied to a player. This was broken for other reasons. It meant that a different player's skill choices could make your skill fail to work at all.

There were no checks of whether the random's heals were ticking higher than your own, or how much duration was remaining. This resulted in scenarios where the healers couldn't even proc certain sets (like SPC) because others already cast the same heals/morphs on allies. Having your entire build negated by another player was not good design. The new system has its flaws, but it is an improvement over the old. At least now you know that casting a heal will have some effect on those around you.

The sets that have a "probelm's proccing" need to be addressed individually then. There's no reason to leave a toxic mechanic in the game because some sets have a "probelm's proccing." I guarrantee you in an organized group nothing is going to have a "probelm's proccing.'

Sets not proccing only part of the problem though. Skill casts having no effect is frustrating, and that is why devs fixed that problem years ago.

I also don't think removing stacking vigor/regeneration even hurts ball groups. They plan and coordinate, and will just determine which specific heal and morph each group member will use (one unmorphed vigor, one echoing vigor, one radiating regen, one circle of protection, one circle of preservation, one energy orb, one illustrious, one springs, one grand healing, etc.). Optimized groups will find the meta and remain difficult to kill. Instead this would end up disproportionately affecting pug groups, where all 4-12 players may be counting on using the same skill morph. It's not like you can port and and change morph after entering a random BG group. Everyone's skill casts should be effective.

Sure, they can adapt in this manner - but that gameplay won't be anywhere near as effective or brainless as the current "radiating + echoing" spam is.

Furthermore, your statement about this disproportionately affecting pugs or disorganized players just isn't accurate. The people in your hypothetical are rarely going to have more than 2 of a specific HOT on them at a given time. Especially in the case of vigor - the vast majority of people who aren't specifically grouping up in a 12 man are going to use resolving as it heals signifcantly more and provides minor resolve.

This change is genuinely one of the only changes that would sincerely harm ball groups more than anybody else at the moment.

ForumBully

If SitS gets this treatment, it will be interesting. If it goes live as is, it will fail to address anything.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/628108/why-snake-in-the-stars-needs-a-further-adjustment-after-8-3-3-before-hitting-the-live-server#latest

MetallicMonk

It's always been the case and in many other games I've played you can only have one active instance of an ability on yourself, generally the higher tooltip overwrites and takes priority. If this is too impactful of a general game change it can be exclusive under battle spirit.

It's not like this change would invalidate group play it would just make the healing aspect of it more active and riskier and having to be more involved. At the end of the day you should still have an advantage being in the largest size group the game offers and being coordinated.

Luke_Flamesword

A few years ago, many heals only allowed a single instance to be applied to a player. This was broken for other reasons. It meant that a different player's skill choices could make your skill fail to work at all.

Well, there is another solution to this problem. Instead disabling other instances of same skill, they can limit them. For example first instance gives 100% effect, second one 50%, third 20% and every other only 5%. Set still procs, skills gives "some" effect, but we avoid overusing of stacks.

Thecompton73

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

godchucknzilla wrote: »

If vigor can do this then so should majo

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

A few years ago, many heals only allowed a single instance to be applied to a player. This was broken for other reasons. It meant that a different player's skill choices could make your skill fail to work at all.

There were no checks of whether the random's heals were ticking higher than your own, or how much duration was remaining. This resulted in scenarios where the healers couldn't even proc certain sets (like SPC) because others already cast the same heals/morphs on allies. Having your entire build negated by another player was not good design. The new system has its flaws, but it is an improvement over the old. At least now you know that casting a heal will have some effect on those around you.

The sets that have a "probelm's proccing" need to be addressed individually then. There's no reason to leave a toxic mechanic in the game because some sets have a "probelm's proccing." I guarrantee you in an organized group nothing is going to have a "probelm's proccing.'

Sets not proccing only part of the problem though. Skill casts having no effect is frustrating, and that is why devs fixed that problem years ago.

I also don't think removing stacking vigor/regeneration even hurts ball groups. They plan and coordinate, and will just determine which specific heal and morph each group member will use (one unmorphed vigor, one echoing vigor, one radiating regen, one circle of protection, one circle of preservation, one energy orb, one illustrious, one springs, one grand healing, etc.). Optimized groups will find the meta and remain difficult to kill. Instead this would end up disproportionately affecting pug groups, where all 4-12 players may be counting on using the same skill morph. It's not like you can port and and change morph after entering a random BG group. Everyone's skill casts should be effective.

It would be easy enough for the Devs to make it so Vigor=Echoing vigor for stacking limitations. And nearly every other option you list is a static AOE. There is a reason ball groups don't currently use them, because they rarely ever stay in the same spot for more than 2-3 seconds and casting them constantly as they're running around would start to strain even a ball groups seemingly unlimited sustain. I mean circle of protection doesn't heal at all and preservation is a HOT you only get by standing inside the 5m radius, it would be quite comical to see 12 or more people standing on top of each other to be inside one to get the healing as they're being targeted by 40 people, cold fire, meat bags, fire ballistas and scattershot. Springs and Illustrious have a bit bigger radius but still barely enough for 12 people to fit in even while standing still, if these groups are constantly moving it's wasting a cast to get maybe 2 ticks each as they run through the area. Then they'd have to also be actively targeting the placement area rather than pushing a button and hitting teammates no matter what direction they are from you. As for Energy orb it moves so slowly you can practically call it static compared to a ball groups movement patterns.

WrathOfInnos

I think some are missing the point. Whatever you nerf, coordinated groups will find the new best option. We've seen it dozens if not hundreds of times over the years. Making things more difficult or less intuitive impacts the less coordinated or less knowledgable players far more than the peak.

Ball groups can absolutely stay within a spring, or a healing orb radius. Ring of Preservation on a ram while the oils rain down is no problem. They could stack on a dime if that's what it took to be in 10+ unique heals. Or rotate barriers, bring in some obscure healing sets, etc.

The pickup groups would be crippled if the same heal ability couldn't stack. They can barely stay close enough to crown for Resolving Vigor or Regen, and they certainly won't stand in a static green circle on the ground or use a different skill just because someone else has it slotted.

I understand the intentions here are good, but the effect would be the opposite. We've lived through that era, it was bad, and it was more or less fixed. Still imperfect, but better.

ForumBully

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

I think some are missing the point. Whatever you nerf, coordinated groups will find the new best option. We've seen it dozens if not hundreds of times over the years. Making things more difficult or less intuitive impacts the less coordinated or less knowledgable players far more than the peak.

Ball groups can absolutely stay within a spring, or a healing orb radius. Ring of Preservation on a ram while the oils rain down is no problem. They could stack on a dime if that's what it took to be in 10+ unique heals. Or rotate barriers, bring in some obscure healing sets, etc.

The pickup groups would be crippled if the same heal ability couldn't stack. They can barely stay close enough to crown for Resolving Vigor or Regen, and they certainly won't stand in a static green circle on the ground or use a different skill just because someone else has it slotted.

I understand the intentions here are good, but the effect would be the opposite. We've lived through that era, it was bad, and it was more or less fixed. Still imperfect, but better.

I don't want to nerf organized groups, I want heal stacking addressed because it is unbalanced and makes for dull healing where only the simplest healing is the most effective. Organized groups will stay strong because they're organized, but without heal stacking they'll definitely be left weaker defensively.
I think that's a needed result, but only because heal stacking is unbalanced. That's the main problem.

Thecompton73

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

I think some are missing the point. Whatever you nerf, coordinated groups will find the new best option. We've seen it dozens if not hundreds of times over the years. Making things more difficult or less intuitive impacts the less coordinated or less knowledgable players far more than the peak.

Ball groups can absolutely stay within a spring, or a healing orb radius. Ring of Preservation on a ram while the oils rain down is no problem. They could stack on a dime if that's what it took to be in 10+ unique heals. Or rotate barriers, bring in some obscure healing sets, etc.

The pickup groups would be crippled if the same heal ability couldn't stack. They can barely stay close enough to crown for Resolving Vigor or Regen, and they certainly won't stand in a static green circle on the ground or use a different skill just because someone else has it slotted.

I understand the intentions here are good, but the effect would be the opposite. We've lived through that era, it was bad, and it was more or less fixed. Still imperfect, but better.

No, they can't. That's why they PvDoor keeps to get in. If they stay still siege and ulti's actually can take them out. It's when they're constantly being chased from behind getting 15% damage reduction from retreating maneuver and running around corners to use LOS with 10 Echoing vigors and 10 Radiating Regen casts going that they become impossible to kill. There has been many a time a ballgroup doesn't feel like they're getting enough attention and has tried to set up a ram on the inside of a keep so they can flag it and capture it to draw in more victims; but they almost always have to start doing laps again because when they're standing still it makes it too easy for people to actually land ulti's in quick succession and saturate the area with multiple siege weapons. They know when the Hots start getting overwhelmed and it's taking expensive burst heals to stay alive it's time to move.

gariondavey

2 instances of named hots per person (radiating, echoing) would be an incredible change in reducing ballgroup strength
@ZOS_Kevin have you and the team discussed implementing this?

OBJnoob

Is echoing vigor unbalanced in a 1v1? Is radiating Regen? If the answer is no then why would it be unbalanced when multiplied by 12?

What is unbalanced is 1 or 4 people expecting to put a dent in 12. While it does happen-- and kudos to those that do-- the groups that stack their HoTs and buffs have found out how to make their 12 man group literally 12 times stronger than the solo player and 3 times stronger than the 4-man. 12x more HoTs and 12x more damage.

This isn't unbalanced. This is the definition of balance.

ForumBully

OBJnoob wrote: »

Is echoing vigor unbalanced in a 1v1? Is radiating Regen? If the answer is no then why would it be unbalanced when multiplied by 12?

What is unbalanced is 1 or 4 people expecting to put a dent in 12. While it does happen-- and kudos to those that do-- the groups that stack their HoTs and buffs have found out how to make their 12 man group literally 12 times stronger than the solo player and 3 times stronger than the 4-man. 12x more HoTs and 12x more damage.

This isn't unbalanced. This is the definition of balance.

If you don't think it's unbalanced that 50 players and 10 siege can't make a dent in 12 players with stacked heals, then we just have a different idea about balance.

mocap

They will just start stacking 12 Hiti's instead of Vigor. Not much will change.

OBJnoob

ForumBully wrote: »

OBJnoob wrote: »

Is echoing vigor unbalanced in a 1v1? Is radiating Regen? If the answer is no then why would it be unbalanced when multiplied by 12?

What is unbalanced is 1 or 4 people expecting to put a dent in 12. While it does happen-- and kudos to those that do-- the groups that stack their HoTs and buffs have found out how to make their 12 man group literally 12 times stronger than the solo player and 3 times stronger than the 4-man. 12x more HoTs and 12x more damage.

This isn't unbalanced. This is the definition of balance.

If you don't think it's unbalanced that 50 players and 10 siege can't make a dent in 12 players with stacked heals, then we just have a different idea about balance.

1 great player can X 12 not very good players. A ballgroup can X 12x that number, in theory. This IS balanced.

What's going on here is solo players want to X 12 players that don't suck. That would be unbalanced.

Tommy_The_Gun

I know it may be unpopular option, but what if we would have a "cap" on how many same effects can be applied to a player ? (Only in PvP, through battle spirit).

Right now, as far as I understand there is no cap at all and if we have 100 players stacked in one place and they all cast aoe healing - they will be all healed 100x times.

So what if we would have a cap ? Let's say 3. Even if there are more players casting aoe healing, then one player will be healed by 3x of the same skill.

Now, I do think that it may be a good idea, since for the most part it happens very rarely to stack multiple same healing ability in a solo zerg or small scale. When it happens almost always however is in a "Ball Group". So if something like this would be added, then it should (at least in theory) hurt Ball Group more, while not affecting anyone else.

There is also an important balance (and logic) dilemma since damage & healing are supposed to balance itself out. So if we would have a cap on the amount of healing & positive effects, that also means that there also should be a cap on damage & negative effects... idk tbh.

MEBengalsFan2001

HoT stacking is a big problem in the game. I rather devs remove any HoT and DoT stacking of the same type. Yes, same type. You cannot have more than 1 type of bleed damage or 1 type of flame damage on a player at a time, etc... this would make HoT and DoT damage cause less stress on the server.

I've seen other games do this and it simply makes the player who has the higher stats heal or damage stick and if someone refreshes the HoT or DoT the higher stat sticks to the player vs. the lower stat.

So you have two healers using Radiant Regen and both hit the tank with a heal. One has a HoT of 1K and the other has a HoT of 1.3K. The 1.3k heal will be the heal and if it is refreshed before the timer run out by the player with a 1K HoT tick, it still would be 1.3K tick due to the player simply refreshing the HoT.

As for damage, I know many player won't like this change but it would encourage variety in skills instead of some classes going with burst abilities that add various DoT of the same type.

As for PVE enemies, they still can have damage type stack on them.