Multiple Instances of Echoing Vigor / Regeneration Buff on Group Members is Broken...

React

OBJnoob wrote: »

Is echoing vigor unbalanced in a 1v1? Is radiating Regen? If the answer is no then why would it be unbalanced when multiplied by 12?

What is unbalanced is 1 or 4 people expecting to put a dent in 12. While it does happen-- and kudos to those that do-- the groups that stack their HoTs and buffs have found out how to make their 12 man group literally 12 times stronger than the solo player and 3 times stronger than the 4-man. 12x more HoTs and 12x more damage.

This isn't unbalanced. This is the definition of balance.

Nope. This is completely untrue, as most ball group fights (12v12) end in a stalemate as they cannot kill eachother. Often times it takes more than double their numbers and numerous siege to kill them, and half the time the end result is they don't actually die and simply get bored of farming players that are no longer worth AP.

You are suggesting that healing is equivalent to damage in this game. This is dramatically incorrect. Healing vastly outparses damage in 90%+ of scenarios.

Billium813

I wonder if ZOS is loath to remove heal stacking from Echoing Vigor because it may be a crutch for weaker players. I have been in a number of PUG 4-man vet dungeons where the group is just so bad that everyone starts running Echoing Vigor. With 4 stacks of Echoing Vigor running, it seems like even a bad group can power their way through some difficult content.

I really just think that Vigor punches way above its weight for a generic group heal. What would ESO look like if Vigor disappeared entirely?

mocap

Saw many groups (not smallscales) without Radiant and Vigor. They just permablockers with coordinated bomb attacks. In some cases, they are more dangerous than classic balls, because if anything happens, they immediately scatter in different directions.

Also don't forget about other stuff like Snow Treaders, Dark Conv, ping (ok ping for ballgroup, 999+ ping for you).

And don't forget that ANY suggesting to nerf ballgroups will be instantly applied to PUG/zerg groups as well.

Howda

godchucknzilla wrote: »

Multiple Instances of Echoing Vigor / Regeneration Buff on Group Members is Broken, We a Need Cap to One Instance of these Buffs Per Player..

I can only test this on 2 players and it indeed puts two instances of these healing buffs on both players. I'm hearing you can have 10+ instances of Echoing Vigor rolling on you if you an your 11 other group members get close and cast this skill. If this is the case, this is busted. I'm also assuming Restoration staff regeneration does the same thing. Hot's need to be capped 1 instance per player and only refreshed on reapplication. There is no way anyone should have 12 instances of Echoing Vigor on themselves. I can't believe this is live and enabling garbage players to group up and run around in circles griefing enemy players in keeps for hours.

Yes it is push the topic even more. The game will be much better with tuned healing.

Open threads and let's talk about it more.

Save pvp Save ESO
This is the true statement. There are less pvp players because pvp needs improvement.
Wrong statement
There are no pvp players therefore there is no improvement.

OBJnoob

React wrote: »

OBJnoob wrote: »

Is echoing vigor unbalanced in a 1v1? Is radiating Regen? If the answer is no then why would it be unbalanced when multiplied by 12?

What is unbalanced is 1 or 4 people expecting to put a dent in 12. While it does happen-- and kudos to those that do-- the groups that stack their HoTs and buffs have found out how to make their 12 man group literally 12 times stronger than the solo player and 3 times stronger than the 4-man. 12x more HoTs and 12x more damage.

This isn't unbalanced. This is the definition of balance.

Nope. This is completely untrue, as most ball group fights (12v12) end in a stalemate as they cannot kill eachother. Often times it takes more than double their numbers and numerous siege to kill them, and half the time the end result is they don't actually die and simply get bored of farming players that are no longer worth AP.

You are suggesting that healing is equivalent to damage in this game. This is dramatically incorrect. Healing vastly outparses damage in 90%+ of scenarios.

Most 1v1s end in a stalemate as well. And most 4v4s end in stalemates as well (as anyone who's seen high level DM Bgs end 150-90-75 can tell you.)

I am not saying damage outpaces healing. Nor am I saying healing shouldn't be adjusted. I'm saying that the size of the group or how perfectly they coordinate is not the problem.

Constantly seeking ways to nerf groups without changing anything for small scalers is going to lead to unfair mechanics that leave us in a TRULY unfair state wherein 9 people statistically equal 12 and 4 statistically equal 9.

And this might make a lot of people happy. Changing cyrodiil from a group oriented battlefield to a solo/small oriented battlefield might make a lot of people happy. That doesn't make it fair, balanced, or how the game was intended to be played. It just means the game has been around too long, people don't care about campaign score or taking keeps anymore, and the majority of "good players" as represented here on these forums are solo and small-scalers who would be happy farming a tower for hours because their only metric for success is killing.

bachpain

OBJnoob wrote: »

React wrote: »

OBJnoob wrote: »

Is echoing vigor unbalanced in a 1v1? Is radiating Regen? If the answer is no then why would it be unbalanced when multiplied by 12?

What is unbalanced is 1 or 4 people expecting to put a dent in 12. While it does happen-- and kudos to those that do-- the groups that stack their HoTs and buffs have found out how to make their 12 man group literally 12 times stronger than the solo player and 3 times stronger than the 4-man. 12x more HoTs and 12x more damage.

This isn't unbalanced. This is the definition of balance.

Nope. This is completely untrue, as most ball group fights (12v12) end in a stalemate as they cannot kill eachother. Often times it takes more than double their numbers and numerous siege to kill them, and half the time the end result is they don't actually die and simply get bored of farming players that are no longer worth AP.

You are suggesting that healing is equivalent to damage in this game. This is dramatically incorrect. Healing vastly outparses damage in 90%+ of scenarios.

Most 1v1s end in a stalemate as well. And most 4v4s end in stalemates as well (as anyone who's seen high level DM Bgs end 150-90-75 can tell you.)

I am not saying damage outpaces healing. Nor am I saying healing shouldn't be adjusted. I'm saying that the size of the group or how perfectly they coordinate is not the problem.

Constantly seeking ways to nerf groups without changing anything for small scalers is going to lead to unfair mechanics that leave us in a TRULY unfair state wherein 9 people statistically equal 12 and 4 statistically equal 9.

And this might make a lot of people happy. Changing cyrodiil from a group oriented battlefield to a solo/small oriented battlefield might make a lot of people happy. That doesn't make it fair, balanced, or how the game was intended to be played. It just means the game has been around too long, people don't care about campaign score or taking keeps anymore, and the majority of "good players" as represented here on these forums are solo and small-scalers who would be happy farming a tower for hours because their only metric for success is killing.

People aren't advocating changing Cyrodiil into a solo/small scale battlefield. What we are advocating is adjusting the teamwork to where the groups are more traditional within the large scale battles. There is no group content where you take all healers, yet in Cyrodiil the way heals stack you can have everyone backbar a healing staff and run regeneration and vigor and everyone in essence is rolling as a healer as these skills are scaled with offensive stats.

Would the meta change and ball groups cease to be this ball of roaming death? I don't know. But at least they would be killable and have to come up with some new tactics of staying alive and viable. I for one would love to see some creativity on the battlefield instead of these roaming blobs of death while everyone inside is cycling aoe heals/dps.

Psiion

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OBJnoob

@bachpain Well said. My opinion hasn't really changed, but I admit I don't really have anything to say to that.

It just seems to me like healing as a whole is overperforming. It overperforms in 1v1s, 4v4s, and yes it obviously reaches it's peak in a full group. I would rather see something done to healing, yes even at the expense of small-scalers, than see a mechanism introduced that punishes grouping beyond a certain size.

I guess... Okay here's my problem. If someone can explain this to me perhaps I will agree after all: Why is it that 12 people surviving against 30 is so much more problematic than 1 person surviving against 5? Don't both require you to be more skilled? Don't both require you to be "meta" while the opponents are probably not?

Poor @React probably wishes I would stop saying his name (and has every right to,) but I gotta ask. You showed a clip of you killing 65 people a month ago. If you can kill 65 people without dying then how many people should 12 yous be able to fight? What's the difference?

Thecompton73

OBJnoob wrote: »

@bachpain Well said. My opinion hasn't really changed, but I admit I don't really have anything to say to that.

It just seems to me like healing as a whole is overperforming. It overperforms in 1v1s, 4v4s, and yes it obviously reaches it's peak in a full group. I would rather see something done to healing, yes even at the expense of small-scalers, than see a mechanism introduced that punishes grouping beyond a certain size.

I guess... Okay here's my problem. If someone can explain this to me perhaps I will agree after all: Why is it that 12 people surviving against 30 is so much more problematic than 1 person surviving against 5? Don't both require you to be more skilled? Don't both require you to be "meta" while the opponents are probably not?

Poor @React probably wishes I would stop saying his name (and has every right to,) but I gotta ask. You showed a clip of you killing 65 people a month ago. If you can kill 65 people without dying then how many people should 12 yous be able to fight? What's the difference?

When one person kills 5 they're doing it with their own skills and are limited to 2-3 sets bonuses plus whatever self buffs they can give themselves from the skills on their own bar. I've seen React's NB video and he uses a five piece bonus to get major breach because he's limited to 10 slots on his bar and doesn't have room for a skill that applies it. But in a 12 person group it takes only 1 of 120 bar slots for someone to use Caltrops once every 10 seconds to put that same debuff on everyone in the groups path.
So when it's 12v30 the twelve not only have cross healing but they have somewhere between 15-20 set buffs being shared as well as skills that buff group members. That allows them to drop self buffs and put abilities on their bar just for passives like flare for major protection that a solo 1vX build could never use because they can't give up self buff abilities like a group member can. And if one of the twelve gets stunned they HoTs still healing them at a pace of 15-20K HPS . A solo player is lucky if they're getting 4-5K in hots incoming if they get stunned.
Further more when the 1 kills any of the five it's because they personally used a combo of skills to do an average of 15-30K dps ifor one or two GCD's to overcome someone. When the 12 kills one or more of the 30 it's because they only had to reach 3K dps on average per group member to kill someone in one GCD. The only timing they have to be worried about in the group lead counting down 3,2,1 before they hit ultimate's and activate an AOE pull set.

Billium813

Thecompton73 wrote: »

OBJnoob wrote: »

@bachpain Well said. My opinion hasn't really changed, but I admit I don't really have anything to say to that.

It just seems to me like healing as a whole is overperforming. It overperforms in 1v1s, 4v4s, and yes it obviously reaches it's peak in a full group. I would rather see something done to healing, yes even at the expense of small-scalers, than see a mechanism introduced that punishes grouping beyond a certain size.

I guess... Okay here's my problem. If someone can explain this to me perhaps I will agree after all: Why is it that 12 people surviving against 30 is so much more problematic than 1 person surviving against 5? Don't both require you to be more skilled? Don't both require you to be "meta" while the opponents are probably not?

Poor @React probably wishes I would stop saying his name (and has every right to,) but I gotta ask. You showed a clip of you killing 65 people a month ago. If you can kill 65 people without dying then how many people should 12 yous be able to fight? What's the difference?

When one person kills 5 they're doing it with their own skills and are limited to 2-3 sets bonuses plus whatever self buffs they can give themselves from the skills on their own bar.

Lol, ya no. They are 100% abusing something in the game and you can't convince me otherwise. Be it Mara's or Ash Cloud or whatever.

This is my biggest issue with ESO PvP. Sure, ball groups are a thing, ya ya whatever they need some nerfs or whatever... But no single player should be able to single handedly take down 5+ players that are all actively trying to kill them. Its total BS.

OBJnoob

I mean, yes I agree, but so doesn't that just make them really good group members? And if the 30 were organized equally well then would we even be having this discussion?

I do see how it snowballs-- I understand that. But if the 30 were in fact two groups of 12 and one 6-man then shouldn't they just do the same thing?

The 30 could stack 30 vigors and regens if they wanted. They could all ulti-dump at the exact same time if they wanted. And if this happened I don't think we'd be having this discussion.

I don't know. I appreciate you changing your mind and giving me some feedback @Thecompton73 but I still just kinda feel like this is a learn to play issue.

I realize that traveling in large groups is distasteful to some. Boring... Loud... Restrictive. But isn't that what Cyrodiil was designed for? And isn't a good 12-man therefore the pinnacle of PvP? It might not be what we all enjoy and it may not be a great showcase for individual skill, but don't they have the right to "win the game?"

They took the time to assign sets and skills for everybody. They do things in cadence, timed and called by one crystal clear voice. They grinded, gathered, and honed every little thing the game has to offer and practiced it to perfect 100% uptime. If the 30 isn't willing to do the same then they have no more right to complain than 6 pugs getting Xed by one good player.

Thecompton73

Billium813 wrote: »

Thecompton73 wrote: »

OBJnoob wrote: »

@bachpain Well said. My opinion hasn't really changed, but I admit I don't really have anything to say to that.

It just seems to me like healing as a whole is overperforming. It overperforms in 1v1s, 4v4s, and yes it obviously reaches it's peak in a full group. I would rather see something done to healing, yes even at the expense of small-scalers, than see a mechanism introduced that punishes grouping beyond a certain size.

I guess... Okay here's my problem. If someone can explain this to me perhaps I will agree after all: Why is it that 12 people surviving against 30 is so much more problematic than 1 person surviving against 5? Don't both require you to be more skilled? Don't both require you to be "meta" while the opponents are probably not?

Poor @React probably wishes I would stop saying his name (and has every right to,) but I gotta ask. You showed a clip of you killing 65 people a month ago. If you can kill 65 people without dying then how many people should 12 yous be able to fight? What's the difference?

When one person kills 5 they're doing it with their own skills and are limited to 2-3 sets bonuses plus whatever self buffs they can give themselves from the skills on their own bar.

Lol, ya no. They are 100% abusing something in the game and you can't convince me otherwise. Be it Mara's or Ash Cloud or whatever.

This is my biggest issue with ESO PvP. Sure, ball groups are a thing, ya ya whatever they need some nerfs or whatever... But no single player should be able to single handedly take down 5+ players that are all actively trying to kill them. Its total BS.

I'm most in favor of damage being high enough that it's extremely hard for someone to survive getting caught by a good combo, especially if they're already taking incoming damage from a few other sources. So in that way I agree. If the five players have even one well built, decent player that can land a combo the cumulative damage from the other 4 should be able to finish them.
That being said I just don't think it can be argued that it doesn't take a more skilled individual to do 1v5 and come out the victor than it does for one to be part of a win in a 12v30. There are just so many inherent advantages for optimized groups in the current system you can't compare the two encounters.

Thecompton73

OBJnoob wrote: »

I mean, yes I agree, but so doesn't that just make them really good group members? And if the 30 were organized equally well then would we even be having this discussion?

I do see how it snowballs-- I understand that. But if the 30 were in fact two groups of 12 and one 6-man then shouldn't they just do the same thing?

The 30 could stack 30 vigors and regens if they wanted. They could all ulti-dump at the exact same time if they wanted. And if this happened I don't think we'd be having this discussion.

I don't know. I appreciate you changing your mind and giving me some feedback @Thecompton73 but I still just kinda feel like this is a learn to play issue.

I realize that traveling in large groups is distasteful to some. Boring... Loud... Restrictive. But isn't that what Cyrodiil was designed for? And isn't a good 12-man therefore the pinnacle of PvP? It might not be what we all enjoy and it may not be a great showcase for individual skill, but don't they have the right to "win the game?"

They took the time to assign sets and skills for everybody. They do things in cadence, timed and called by one crystal clear voice. They grinded, gathered, and honed every little thing the game has to offer and practiced it to perfect 100% uptime. If the 30 isn't willing to do the same then they have no more right to complain than 6 pugs getting Xed by one good player.

The thing is this isn't a philosophical debate. It's a game that's supposed to be fun. If the way the game currently works allows a very small minority of the population to have all the fun while they make the large majority miserable it is simply bad for the health of the game and shouldn't be allowed. Theorizing about absolute values of fairness or equity need to be put aside for the greater good of the game.

danno8

Diminishing returns on multiple stacks of the same effect is probably the best option. 100% first, 50% second, 25% third etc...

This means small man groups are less affected by the change, but large 12 man groups will no longer be effective stacking 12 of the same heal.

This also still allows set procs to occur if they have an "on heal" effect or such.

KingLewie_III

Billium813 wrote: »

I wonder if ZOS is loath to remove heal stacking from Echoing Vigor because it may be a crutch for weaker players. I have been in a number of PUG 4-man vet dungeons where the group is just so bad that everyone starts running Echoing Vigor. With 4 stacks of Echoing Vigor running, it seems like even a bad group can power their way through some difficult content.

I really just think that Vigor punches way above its weight for a generic group heal. What would ESO look like if Vigor disappeared entirely?

ZOS needs to stop dumbing down the game by catering to people unwilling to do simple things like learn a rotation, farm gear, or learn mechanics.

OBJnoob

Thecompton73 wrote: »

The thing is this isn't a philosophical debate. It's a game that's supposed to be fun. If the way the game currently works allows a very small minority of the population to have all the fun while they make the large majority miserable it is simply bad for the health of the game and shouldn't be allowed. Theorizing about absolute values of fairness or equity need to be put aside for the greater good of the game.

I actually respect that opinion quite a bit. I don't share it-- but you did well to cut through the blather and address the real issue I'm having with this.

I was getting agitated from a philosophical place by people saying heal stacking wasn't "fair," or that it was an "exploit." And I was confused that nobody seemed to agree with me about what, to me, was obviously fair.

I feel oddly better now, and thank you for indulging me. We'll have to agree to disagree, but I'll leave this thread alone and give you all the chance to present a united front.

At some point I hope we nail down a more circumspect solution to the healing problem though, because I do think good Xers and small-scale groups are guilty of the same tactics and accomplishments, just on a smaller scale. If 12 players healing through all the efforts of 30 is a problem then 1 person withstanding 3 is also a problem. The same problem.

jaws343

Billium813 wrote: »

Thecompton73 wrote: »

OBJnoob wrote: »

@bachpain Well said. My opinion hasn't really changed, but I admit I don't really have anything to say to that.

It just seems to me like healing as a whole is overperforming. It overperforms in 1v1s, 4v4s, and yes it obviously reaches it's peak in a full group. I would rather see something done to healing, yes even at the expense of small-scalers, than see a mechanism introduced that punishes grouping beyond a certain size.

I guess... Okay here's my problem. If someone can explain this to me perhaps I will agree after all: Why is it that 12 people surviving against 30 is so much more problematic than 1 person surviving against 5? Don't both require you to be more skilled? Don't both require you to be "meta" while the opponents are probably not?

Poor @React probably wishes I would stop saying his name (and has every right to,) but I gotta ask. You showed a clip of you killing 65 people a month ago. If you can kill 65 people without dying then how many people should 12 yous be able to fight? What's the difference?

When one person kills 5 they're doing it with their own skills and are limited to 2-3 sets bonuses plus whatever self buffs they can give themselves from the skills on their own bar.

Lol, ya no. They are 100% abusing something in the game and you can't convince me otherwise. Be it Mara's or Ash Cloud or whatever.

This is my biggest issue with ESO PvP. Sure, ball groups are a thing, ya ya whatever they need some nerfs or whatever... But no single player should be able to single handedly take down 5+ players that are all actively trying to kill them. Its total BS.

I mean, if we are talking about 5 skilled players, I can I agree with you, the 1 player should not stand a chance.

I'm not a great PVPer, but even I have taken down groups of 4-5 lesser skilled players, because my decisions in combat were better than my opponents and my own skill outweighed theirs. You can't just say that is due to imbalance or abuse. Skill absolutely plays a part in those situations.

It's why most 1vx montages are usually a very highly skilled player finally facing a handful of much lower skilled players. Those montages also usually cut out the countless fights where 1 or two equally skilled players easily took down the 1vXer.

bachpain

When you look at any 1vX situation where the 1 comes out on top it isn't just the gear that wins the fight by a long shot. It is their timing, their use of line of sight, separating players from each other and getting kills. It is a skill thing where yes it is a "wow that just happened" moment. But if you objectively looked back with an open mind you could dissect how it was done with use of roll dodges, blocks, skills, evasive use of terrain etc.

The group fighting the 1 could counter these things if they knew what to do, when the opportunity presented itself. It happens more often than you might think but no one posts YouTube videos of beating up on a solo whom they grossly outnumbered. The large scale organized synergize ball groups on the other hand are a totally different animal. They roam the landscape eating everything in its path. There is nothing anyone can do except die and move on to somewhere else. There is no counter period. The power and volume of the stacking HOTS and DOTS that they produce are literally overwhelming. They get into keeps and just roam around killing everyone without ever taking the keep just for fun. Their enemy either gets killed (sometimes over and over) vainly attempting to stop them or moves on elsewhere.

There is no comparison to what ball groups have become in PVP to anything in any MMO I have ever played. The synergies, sets, and setups literally turn them into a moving blob like one giant organism that if you get in range you are dead. The people inside don't even target people. The whole thing just envelopes people and moves on. There is no "fight". No one can tell me that this is what PVP really should be in ESO. Ball groups aren't recognizable to the raid pvp back in the day. Back then we had some epic Guild vs Guild organized as well as pug fights throughout the week where it was raid vs raid but everyone had to play their class, their role, and listen to coordinated callouts to deal with healers etc.

ichibe

Hot take here playing devils advocate: maybe we need 12 vigors and mutis in group because we have to fight 40 of you seiging us with cold harbor ballistas while you wear Maras/Rallying Cry and have 40k health. Let’s not get started on the wave of emperor Palpatines in Knight Slayer and Stormmasters heavy attacking you endlessly while getting carpet negated. [snip]

[edited for baiting]

React

ichibe wrote: »

Hot take here playing devils advocate: maybe we need 12 vigors and mutis in group because we have to fight 40 of you seiging us with cold harbor ballistas while you wear Maras/Rallying Cry and have 40k health. Let’s not get started on the wave of emperor Palpatines in Knight Slayer and Stormmasters heavy attacking you endlessly while getting carpet negated. [snip]

Sounds like you're playing "ball group advocate".

Negates must be really hard to deal with, especially with a monster set on multiple people that automatically procs and eats them without you having to do anything.

It is astounding that you aren't realizing what is wrong with your opponents needing to be 40v12 with multiple coldfires to kill you.

[edited to remove quote]

Billium813

jaws343 wrote: »

Billium813 wrote: »

Thecompton73 wrote: »

OBJnoob wrote: »

@bachpain Well said. My opinion hasn't really changed, but I admit I don't really have anything to say to that.

It just seems to me like healing as a whole is overperforming. It overperforms in 1v1s, 4v4s, and yes it obviously reaches it's peak in a full group. I would rather see something done to healing, yes even at the expense of small-scalers, than see a mechanism introduced that punishes grouping beyond a certain size.

I guess... Okay here's my problem. If someone can explain this to me perhaps I will agree after all: Why is it that 12 people surviving against 30 is so much more problematic than 1 person surviving against 5? Don't both require you to be more skilled? Don't both require you to be "meta" while the opponents are probably not?

Poor @React probably wishes I would stop saying his name (and has every right to,) but I gotta ask. You showed a clip of you killing 65 people a month ago. If you can kill 65 people without dying then how many people should 12 yous be able to fight? What's the difference?

When one person kills 5 they're doing it with their own skills and are limited to 2-3 sets bonuses plus whatever self buffs they can give themselves from the skills on their own bar.

Lol, ya no. They are 100% abusing something in the game and you can't convince me otherwise. Be it Mara's or Ash Cloud or whatever.

This is my biggest issue with ESO PvP. Sure, ball groups are a thing, ya ya whatever they need some nerfs or whatever... But no single player should be able to single handedly take down 5+ players that are all actively trying to kill them. Its total BS.

I mean, if we are talking about 5 skilled players, I can I agree with you, the 1 player should not stand a chance.

I'm not a great PVPer, but even I have taken down groups of 4-5 lesser skilled players, because my decisions in combat were better than my opponents and my own skill outweighed theirs. You can't just say that is due to imbalance or abuse. Skill absolutely plays a part in those situations.

It's why most 1vx montages are usually a very highly skilled player finally facing a handful of much lower skilled players. Those montages also usually cut out the countless fights where 1 or two equally skilled players easily took down the 1vXer.

It doesn't have to be 5 skills players. When 2 players are constantly launching Snipes and Poison Arrows from range, while 3 others are spamming Jabs, Whips, Stampedes, Surprise Attacks, Carves, Dizzy Swings; there is no skill there but it's still 5 players worth of damage output. It's like most of the hits aren't registering and the enemy seems to have infinite resources (weird for a DK). You get them low, then Mara's pop them up. You get them low again, then they Dragon Leap pop back up. They dodge roll like a maniac, weaving free Ash Clouds. They are unkillable AND burst down opponents 1 at a time while apparently having no problems with resources or health.

Alchimiste1

OBJnoob wrote: »

Is echoing vigor unbalanced in a 1v1? Is radiating Regen? If the answer is no then why would it be unbalanced when multiplied by 12?

What is unbalanced is 1 or 4 people expecting to put a dent in 12. While it does happen-- and kudos to those that do-- the groups that stack their HoTs and buffs have found out how to make their 12 man group literally 12 times stronger than the solo player and 3 times stronger than the 4-man. 12x more HoTs and 12x more damage.

This isn't unbalanced. This is the definition of balance.

what kind of logic is that lmao. How are you going to take skills that are AOE and meant to be used in a group then put them in a 1v1 scenario and use their effectiveness in a case that its not meant to be used in just to utilize it as some kind of false proof to fit your narrative ?

godchucknzilla

I was reading some feedback about this problem from the people that are PRO Echoing Vigor Ball Groupers and it is even more clear to me that ECHOING VIGOR is the problem. It enables insane healing and great mobility in a 360 radius. Radiant Regeneration was nerfed by %40 percent right before ECHOING VIGOR was buffed to 10 seconds (I believe) and became the new Problem. Also people have said in this thread that if ECHOING VIGOR is nerfed they will just go back to heal springs, ok fine do that, because at least it requires you to stand in one spot or constantly cast it and forces to spend MAGICKA, and still isn't as bad at what we are seeing with 35k + health ball groupers using 12 instance of ECHOING VIGOR.

Bushido2513

OBJnoob wrote: »

ForumBully wrote: »

OBJnoob wrote: »

Is echoing vigor unbalanced in a 1v1? Is radiating Regen? If the answer is no then why would it be unbalanced when multiplied by 12?

What is unbalanced is 1 or 4 people expecting to put a dent in 12. While it does happen-- and kudos to those that do-- the groups that stack their HoTs and buffs have found out how to make their 12 man group literally 12 times stronger than the solo player and 3 times stronger than the 4-man. 12x more HoTs and 12x more damage.

This isn't unbalanced. This is the definition of balance.

If you don't think it's unbalanced that 50 players and 10 siege can't make a dent in 12 players with stacked heals, then we just have a different idea about balance.

1 great player can X 12 not very good players. A ballgroup can X 12x that number, in theory. This IS balanced.

What's going on here is solo players want to X 12 players that don't suck. That would be unbalanced.

Way too many variables in either of these scenarios to really make a good estimation of balance. I don't think anyone really wants to X 12 good players.

By that I mean that yes we want to win but few would continue to play a game that was that broken because eventually the sense of it being to easy would set in.

What we want is battles that don't last forever or at least give the feeling of you win some you lose some. Stacked heals throws this out the window when the guy you were about to kill just lays there and lives when you actually want him to either be dead or doing enough damage that you have to react and can either yourself appreciate dying or celebrate the kill that much more. That's more where balance shines. Hot stacking just slowly wears you down and kills the mood.

Adamus

I like the concept of Snake in the Stars, even though I’m not a fan of the new ‘friendly fire’ damage introduced by Plague Break, the current direction of Snake in the Stars won’t affect groups stacking 30k+/s Hots and 20k+ unnamed shields. Snake in the Stars, in its current state, would continue the trend of hurting smaller groups, solo players and zerg surfers.

2 suggestions on how to adjust Snake in the Stars to address to exploitation of over healing in PvP:
1. Have it proc off over healing and scale off the amount of over healing, no cap. (This will be quick to be called for nerfing and the numbers you’ll see may surprise the dev team)
2. Remove the applied timer, OR at min., set the applied to ‘per target’. Tons of useful debuff sets get nerfed to subpar sets with this minor set change.

KingLewie_III

Adamus wrote: »

I like the concept of Snake in the Stars, even though I’m not a fan of the new ‘friendly fire’ damage introduced by Plague Break, the current direction of Snake in the Stars won’t affect groups stacking 30k+/s Hots and 20k+ unnamed shields. Snake in the Stars, in its current state, would continue the trend of hurting smaller groups, solo players and zerg surfers.

2 suggestions on how to adjust Snake in the Stars to address to exploitation of over healing in PvP:
1. Have it proc off over healing and scale off the amount of over healing, no cap. (This will be quick to be called for nerfing and the numbers you’ll see may surprise the dev team)
2. Remove the applied timer, OR at min., set the applied to ‘per target’. Tons of useful debuff sets get nerfed to subpar sets with this minor set change.

I like where you're going with this, but if it only procs off over healing it won't ever damage anyone past 99% in groups with massive amounts of healing since the first tick would damage them, causing the next hot not to be an overheal, and so on.

Maybe if it had like a 5 second window where it accounts for all over healing, then pops. Kind of like how power of the light functions.

bachpain

The issue with ball groups in open Cyrodiil isn't just Echoing vigor it is the entirety of the way heals and damage over time infinitely stack. It is the way these ball groups can have everything from their sets, to their skills, to their add-ons blocking specific people from being able to take synergies and prioritizing them so that they will be the most useful for the group. EVERYTHING in the ball group is a symbiotic thing within the group. It makes the group overpowered to any numbers of zergs or whatever you throw at it because of the mechanics in the game that are in place to allow it. I don't care what sets are introduced until these mechanisms are tuned somehow with battle spirit ball groups will destroy PVP for everyone outside of them. It really is akin to max leveled toons camping low level areas in open world PVP mmos. Unless somehow you can get 40 people to hit the group with their cold fire siege, you might as well just move on even if it is 40 or 50 v 12. That is just flat out wrong.

OBJnoob

bachpain wrote: »

EVERYTHING in the ball group is a symbiotic thing within the group.

You can do whatever you want with heal stacking but ball groups who reach this level of symbiosis are still going to do what they do.

Just like 1 good player can beat 5 bad players, 12 good players can beat 60 bad players. There's nothing broken about this.

And I'm not necessarily saying those 60 players are bad, even though yes I just said that. But the 12 are clearly better.

Take heal stacking away and what prevents them from just having 3 or 4 or 5 healers doing nothing but heavy attacking and casting AoE burst heals? Who else but a ball group could afford to do that? And won't that iteration be the same?

Just because someone understands the mechanics and uses them to perfection doesn't mean it's broken.

Turtle_Bot

OBJnoob wrote: »

bachpain wrote: »

EVERYTHING in the ball group is a symbiotic thing within the group.

Take heal stacking away and what prevents them from just having 3 or 4 or 5 healers doing nothing but heavy attacking and casting AoE burst heals? Who else but a ball group could afford to do that? And won't that iteration be the same?

Just because someone understands the mechanics and uses them to perfection doesn't mean it's broken.

Because then that group now has only have half the room for damage dealers/offensive utility leading to much lower killing potential (bringing back that risk v reward gameplay, more healers = less risk but lower reward, more DD = more risk but more reward).
Healing also becomes a much more reactive form of defense, with its many existing options for counter play, instead of being a passive defense that is just always there because every DD in the group slotted vigor front bar radiating back bar and has no counterplay without some seriously unbalanced mechanics being introduced (see plague, dark con, etc) that will then simply be incorporated into those same groups.

It's also due to how heal stacking affects server performance. You can stack DoTs infinitely because eventually the target dies and the calculations stop being performed so the servers frequently get a chance to catch up.
With heal stacking not only are the calculations constant and stack infinitely, but the targets never die so the calculations never have a chance to stop and allow the server to catch up.

It's why as soon as a ball group logs on and does anything more than just standing idle at the gates, the servers just die, because they are having to infinitely process all those calculations until the ball group logs off resulting in the game failing to the point of crashing, which disproportionately harms other players because they aren't constantly sending data to the servers that would keep them flagged as "active" during these periods of mass server strain and as such, they are often the first to get booted from the servers.

Just because someone understands the mechanics and uses them is fair play. But when someone understands the mechanics and abuses them to make the game unplayable for others, that is no longer fair play and needs to be directly addressed.

They have addressed this issue of abuse of mechanics multiple times in the past:
- Pull abilities like chains etc cast mid air off bridges allowing for easy kills via slaughterfish that had almost no counterplay outside of being an Argonian tank.
- Gap closers (leap) that could get you into keeps without any wall/door being down by gap closing onto a target on a keep wall.
- NB specifically had its gap closer changed because it was able to get inside unflagged keeps via timing their gap closer to someone entering their own keep
- Knock backs (flame clench/javelin) that could knock you through the outpost/inner keep grills.
- Dark convergence that could pull you through walls of the inner keeps onto that little ledge forcing you to either jump down to waiting enemies or die to the proc.
- A tree that was being used to get into fort glademist without breaking an outer wall/door

Heal stacking is just the latest mechanic that is being abused by some players to the detriment of everyone else and as such needs to be addressed accordingly.

No I don't want it removed entirely, but put limits or diminishing returns on it so that it can't be abused like it currently is.

ForumBully

OBJnoob wrote: »

bachpain wrote: »

EVERYTHING in the ball group is a symbiotic thing within the group.

You can do whatever you want with heal stacking but ball groups who reach this level of symbiosis are still going to do what they do.

Just like 1 good player can beat 5 bad players, 12 good players can beat 60 bad players. There's nothing broken about this.

And I'm not necessarily saying those 60 players are bad, even though yes I just said that. But the 12 are clearly better.

Take heal stacking away and what prevents them from just having 3 or 4 or 5 healers doing nothing but heavy attacking and casting AoE burst heals? Who else but a ball group could afford to do that? And won't that iteration be the same?

Just because someone understands the mechanics and uses them to perfection doesn't mean it's broken.

And I'm fine with that. Let's get rid of this bad mechanic of stacking heals as much as you like and the best will still be the best... we're all happy