Why Snake in the Stars needs a further adjustment after 8.3.3 before hitting the live server

React

This is an image of my buff tracker while standing in a typical "ball group", or coordinated 12 man PVP group, on PC NA. I do not have echoing vigor or radiating regen slotted, so those 11 casts of echoing and two casts of radiating regen are being generated solely by the 12 man group. This is in addition to the 2-3 casts of healing springs/ritual, and the 2 casts of healing combustion present. There are also sets present that will proc healing (earthgore), and other secondary effects such as passive warden off heals, lifesteal, etc. The players in this group are receiving at minimum 10 ticks of healing per second while engaged in combat (or while simply sitting on a ram, spamming their heals endlessly).

The recent change to snake in the stars that brought it's proc cooldown while active from 1 second to 100ms is a great change towards combating these groups and the heal stacking problem. However, the set can only proc on one single person every 12 seconds. Applying a 10-11k oblivion damage dot to one single person in a group like this does nothing - these groups already have so much healing that they're able to shrug off things like coldfire and oil.

Meanwhile, even though the recent changes made the set less potent against your average "solo" or "ungrouped" players, it still will be very oppresive against them if they're using multiple heal over times, which the vast majority of players do.

If the intention of this set is to counter the heal stacking issue, as mentioned in the recent developer comments, then you need to remove the 12s cooldown on application for the caster. The other two cooldowns will still remain; a person can only have one instance of star venom on them at a time, and they may only be affected by star venom once every 12 seconds. Allow for the set to be applied simultaneously to multiple people, so that it can be applied to the entirety of these ball groups at once, negating some of their absurdly high healing and making them temporarily susceptible to burst.

If you do not make this change, this set serves no purpose other than a frustrating tool to be used against solo and outnumbered players by superior numbers. It does not disrupt ball group play at all, and we will see no improvement to this incredibly unhealthy and imbalanced playstyle which is also completely decimating the server performance for PC NA.

@ZOS_Kevin

ForumBully

This would be a welcome change, and fitting. The next best thing to addressing heal stacking directly.

Tommy_The_Gun

I said it countless times and I will say it again: If GROUPS are the problem (not solo players or zergs of solo players), then the only way to address numerous balance problems is for the game to know whenever players are grouped or not and scale things differently when in group and differently when solo. ZOS could even add something like this to Battle Spirit.

What is very weird is that something like this exists already in the game. Some sets, like Ring of Pale order or Rallying Cry have something like this. Those sets become less & less effective the larger the group is.

Snake in the Stars could have something like this added. They could tone down the damage by half, but add a condition like:

Whenever an enemy with Star Venom is healed, they take X Daedric Damage. This value is increased by X% per ally they are grouped with.

jaws343

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

I said it countless times and I will say it again: If GROUPS are the problem (not solo players or zergs of solo players), then the only way to address numerous balance problems is for the game to know whenever players are grouped or not and scale things differently when in group and differently when solo. ZOS could even add something like this to Battle Spirit.

What is very weird is that something like this exists already in the game. Some sets, like Ring of Pale order or Rallying Cry have something like this. Those sets become less & less effective the larger the group is.

Snake in the Stars could have something like this added. They could tone down the damage by half, but add a condition like:

Whenever an enemy with Star Venom is healed, they take X Daedric Damage. This value is increased by X% per ally they are grouped with.

Honestly, rather than a set like Snake in the Stars, or any set for that matter, being used to address group issues, they should just apply a pale order like mechanic to groups as whole.

Something in Battlespirit that reduces: Healing Done, Healing Received, Damage Done, Damage mitigation, by X% per player in your group after 4.

So a 4 man group or lower gets zero reductions. A group of 5-12 gets increasingly severe impact to their overall output. The group of 12 would still be more effective than a group of 4 or 6 or a loose scattering of ungrouped players, by the very nature of the build synergy they can coordinate. But they would be reduced in power significantly enough to ease some of the issues with those groups.

TechMaybeHic

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

I said it countless times and I will say it again: If GROUPS are the problem (not solo players or zergs of solo players), then the only way to address numerous balance problems is for the game to know whenever players are grouped or not and scale things differently when in group and differently when solo. ZOS could even add something like this to Battle Spirit.

What is very weird is that something like this exists already in the game. Some sets, like Ring of Pale order or Rallying Cry have something like this. Those sets become less & less effective the larger the group is.

Snake in the Stars could have something like this added. They could tone down the damage by half, but add a condition like:

Whenever an enemy with Star Venom is healed, they take X Daedric Damage. This value is increased by X% per ally they are grouped with.

They are making friendly target markers size scalable ad as is, I've seen ball groups running far more than a single 12 man. All they will need to do is make a bigger icon for their crown and with not group or run smaller units for the few things that require being grouped to work

ZOS_Kevin

So we're going to start off by saying that we'll pass this feedback on to the combat team. Appreciate you posting your detailed feedback here.

Currently, we are keeping a close eye on new sets like Snake in the Stars and will continue to tune over time. We need more player interactions to see how the set will be used and in what situations. Then the team will adjust as needed. So please keep up with feedback.

ForumBully

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

So we're going to start off by saying that we'll pass this feedback on to the combat team. Appreciate you posting your detailed feedback here.

Currently, we are keeping a close eye on new sets like Snake in the Stars and will continue to tune over time. We need more player interactions to see how the set will be used and in what situations. Then the team will adjust as needed. So please keep up with feedback.

Ok, but we don't need any additional info to say that the desired goal will not be achieved as is.

MetallicMonk

On top of that how long should we expect to wait for the team to listen to our feedback? Are we operating under the same timeframe as mara's where we can expect the testing on live servers(for some reason) to go on for over half a year?

NotTaylorSwift

React wrote: »

these groups already have so much healing that they're able to shrug off things like coldfire and oil.

@ZOS_Kevin

Yet another post asking for pvp ez mode. This ^ is simply not true. Groups aren’t “shrugging off” coldfire and oils. Ball groups are nerfed so much already. Many have left the game and new aspiring ones usually give up after a few weeks. Plaguebreak effectively removed purge from pvp for groups. Now, siege damage is unblockable for some absurd reason that was never included in any patch notes. A bug that has been left and ignored… yet again. 3-4 oil stacks are enough to start killing ballgroup members 🤷‍♂️ idk why you think they are shrugging it off as u put it.

The only ball groups remaining are the top tier ones. The others have either disbanded/are inactive/play no cp.

Stop making pvp easy for people who don’t put any effort into getting better at it!

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

I said it countless times and I will say it again: If GROUPS are the problem (not solo players or zergs of solo players), then the only way to address numerous balance problems is for the game to know whenever players are grouped or not and scale things differently when in group and differently when solo. ZOS could even add something like this to Battle Spirit.

[snip] It’s literally a group based game. Cyrodiil is LARGE SCALE pvp first and foremost. You CHOOSE not to take advantage of the benefits of grouping. The benefits are there for EVERYONE. You shoot yourself in the foot, no one else… it’s not even just grouping. It’s coordinated gameplay which will always come out on top no matter what. Again… this is available for everyone to take advantage of. Discord is free. Teamspeak is free. If you don’t want to use them, it’s your fault. You can’t punish everyone else for YOUR choices.

[edited for baiting]

MetallicMonk

Truly players in the largest formed groups available coordinating sets and skills together are at a major disadvantage compared to the rest of the game, so victimized.

Billium813

React wrote: »

The recent change to snake in the stars that brought it's proc cooldown while active from 1 second to 100ms is a great change towards combating these groups and the heal stacking problem. However, the set can only proc on one single person every 12 seconds. Applying a 10-11k oblivion damage dot to one single person in a group like this does nothing - these groups already have so much healing that they're able to shrug off things like coldfire and oil.

The only thing I am going to point out is that remember SitS procing on one single target every 12 seconds may be a good thing. SitS is not meant to be like Dark Convergence or Plaguebreak, it's not meant for 1 person to be able to single-handedly shutdown an entire ball group! I think ZOS is going for more pin-point, tactical gameplay here.

I think the devs are going for a psuedo-counter/cancel/disable heals through damage. If the quality of the heals are sufficient, SitS wont do much. If they aren't, then the affected player is essentially without heals for the duration. Of course, an alternative mechanic could just be the heal negation from the HM Grundwulf fight in Moongrave Fane and healing just being 100% disabled. That might be too strong though, so they want strong heals to be able to overpower SitS. But, is SitS strong enough! The question is what is the average ball groups HPS?

My question is: if heal stacking is OK, can a single player get multiple copies of SitS proc?

This would be nice for players to focus down a single ball group element! However, as all things go, this might be bad as ball groups could end up just focusing down single players with their own SitS in an even more coordinated effort... hmm, I kind of wish more things had mechanics like Ring of the Pale Order that diminish in value based on group size...

MetallicMonk

Billium813 wrote: »

React wrote: »

The recent change to snake in the stars that brought it's proc cooldown while active from 1 second to 100ms is a great change towards combating these groups and the heal stacking problem. However, the set can only proc on one single person every 12 seconds. Applying a 10-11k oblivion damage dot to one single person in a group like this does nothing - these groups already have so much healing that they're able to shrug off things like coldfire and oil.

The only thing I am going to point out is that remember SitS procing on one single target every 12 seconds may be a good thing. SitS is not meant to be like Dark Convergence or Plaguebreak, it's not meant for 1 person to be able to single-handedly shutdown an entire ball group! I think ZOS is going for more pin-point, tactical gameplay here.

I think the devs are going for a psuedo-counter/cancel/disable heals through damage. If the quality of the heals are sufficient, SitS wont do much. If they aren't, then the affected player is essentially without heals for the duration. Of course, an alternative mechanic could just be the heal negation from the HM Grundwulf fight in Moongrave Fane and healing just being 100% disabled. That might be too strong though, so they want strong heals to be able to overpower SitS. But, is SitS strong enough! The question is what is the average ball groups HPS?

My question is: if heal stacking is OK, can a single player get multiple copies of SitS proc?

This would be nice for players to focus down a single ball group element! However, as all things go, this might be bad as ball groups could end up just focusing down single players with their own SitS in an even more coordinated effort... hmm, I kind of wish more things had mechanics like Ring of the Pale Order that diminish in value based on group size...

The problem is it just doesn't do much if that's the case, it doesn't counter the exclusively defensive holding block healing players which is what people complain about, or the players wearing maras especially which is a big issue. The only times you're killing these players a lot of times is after completely running their stam if they're extremely bad, or having multiple people attacking them, in both of these instances just doing more damage is probably a better alternative to the set.

So if it doesn't do much to counter extremely defensive players, doesn't help counter the maras meta, and with them not listening to the changes proposed in this thread won't help mitigate ball group healing, which part of the stale healing/defensive meta is this even supposed to be designed for?

I guess the players who spend 10 minutes chasing a single player with 5+ people will see it as a set that helps them counter someone's heals.

React

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

So we're going to start off by saying that we'll pass this feedback on to the combat team. Appreciate you posting your detailed feedback here.

Currently, we are keeping a close eye on new sets like Snake in the Stars and will continue to tune over time. We need more player interactions to see how the set will be used and in what situations. Then the team will adjust as needed. So please keep up with feedback.

Appreciate the comment.

I hope this doesn't come off as confrontational, but it is very easy for most veteran PVP players to understand exactly how adding this set will play out with it's current iteration. We've been through the ringer numerous times with DOT-proc sets.

The set will be oppressive when it is used against you as a solo player, or just an ungrouped player who is not receiving healing from other players. Not necessarily in a 1v1 scenario, but as soon as there are multiple people dealing damage to you and you receive a SITS proc, your heal over times will immediately be partially or fully negated and it will be very difficult to survive any significant incoming damage for that brief window.

For example, on my no-stealth nightblade, I have 2 heal over times and one pseudo-heal over time (not including soul tether). Vigor, refreshing path, and siphoning attacks. Siphoning typically heals me for 800-900, vigor typically heals for 2,000-3,000, and path usually heals for 900-1,100.

If I receive a snake in the Stars proc on this build and I am actively receiving my 3 heal over times, the proc will effectively negate around 2/3rds of that healing. This is not including if I'm potentially receiving things such as life steal heals, soul tether heals, heals from killers blade or AW, etc. This is extremely punishing.

Now, let's look at the ball group. Those 11 echoing vigors and 2 radiating regens are probably healing for around 1,500 each (it would be typically be lower, but ball groups have extremely high stats to boost their healing due to the support/buff sets they can afford to run). Their springs are probably healing for a similar number to the vigors & regens, and the extended rituals are probably healing for even more (likely around 2,500).

It would be a safe assumption to say that at any given moment, every single person in these groups is receiving something in the ballpark of 15k healing every second from their sticky & ground heal over times alone. This isn't even considering the use of aoe burst heals like blessing of protection and budding seeds, which are staples in these groups, or the various passive & set heals they're receiving.

What will applying SITS to one single person in this group do? Absolutely nothing. You'll negate maybe 50% of one single person's healing out of the 12 people that are also receiving that healing, so perhaps 2-3% of their overall healing output (during that 4 second window). It won't open the group up to being bursted, and it won't change their playstyle in any way.

On the other hand, if you can apply this to everyone in the group at once, you'll be negating perhaps 50% of their healing during that 4 second window. This large of a healing reduction across the entire group will force them to adjust their playstyles, or they'll be getting destroyed by the other incoming damage that they otherwise completely ignore currently.

It is a mistake to add the set into the game as is right now. All it will accomplish is deteriorating the PVP experience for solo, small scale, and ungrouped players by forcing them to deal with another extremely strong dot. It will not punish the groups that are the primary issue when it comes to heal stacking, and these groups will continue to exploit this broken playstyle while the rest of us suffer the poor performance that it undeniably causes.

Billium813

MetallicMonk wrote: »

Billium813 wrote: »

React wrote: »

The recent change to snake in the stars that brought it's proc cooldown while active from 1 second to 100ms is a great change towards combating these groups and the heal stacking problem. However, the set can only proc on one single person every 12 seconds. Applying a 10-11k oblivion damage dot to one single person in a group like this does nothing - these groups already have so much healing that they're able to shrug off things like coldfire and oil.

The only thing I am going to point out is that remember SitS procing on one single target every 12 seconds may be a good thing. SitS is not meant to be like Dark Convergence or Plaguebreak, it's not meant for 1 person to be able to single-handedly shutdown an entire ball group! I think ZOS is going for more pin-point, tactical gameplay here.

I think the devs are going for a psuedo-counter/cancel/disable heals through damage. If the quality of the heals are sufficient, SitS wont do much. If they aren't, then the affected player is essentially without heals for the duration. Of course, an alternative mechanic could just be the heal negation from the HM Grundwulf fight in Moongrave Fane and healing just being 100% disabled. That might be too strong though, so they want strong heals to be able to overpower SitS. But, is SitS strong enough! The question is what is the average ball groups HPS?

My question is: if heal stacking is OK, can a single player get multiple copies of SitS proc?

This would be nice for players to focus down a single ball group element! However, as all things go, this might be bad as ball groups could end up just focusing down single players with their own SitS in an even more coordinated effort... hmm, I kind of wish more things had mechanics like Ring of the Pale Order that diminish in value based on group size...

The problem is it just doesn't do much if that's the case, it doesn't counter the exclusively defensive holding block healing players which is what people complain about, or the players wearing maras especially which is a big issue. The only times you're killing these players a lot of times is after completely running their stam if they're extremely bad, or having multiple people attacking them, in both of these instances just doing more damage is probably a better alternative to the set.

So if it doesn't do much to counter extremely defensive players, doesn't help counter the maras meta, and with them not listening to the changes proposed in this thread won't help mitigate ball group healing, which part of the stale healing/defensive meta is this even supposed to be designed for?

I guess the players who spend 10 minutes chasing a single player with 5+ people will see it as a set that helps them counter someone's heals.

> it doesn't counter the exclusively defensive holding block healing players which is what people complain about
It is Oblivion Damage, so it can't be blocked

> the players wearing maras especially which is a big issue
Ya, well, that IS a whole separate issue...

> won't help mitigate ball group healing
That's really the catch though. How much damage does it need to do to be fair, not single handedly nuke an entire ball group, AND give that window for action to chop a ball group down to size. I think at this point ZOS is just looking at what is the average HoT from a ball group? Too low, SitS cleans someone's clock, over the average, that single player just shrugs it off and hides in the ball.

ForumBully

The devs need to decide that intent of the set, I thought it was decided but now it seems like there's some waffling.
If the intent is to counter heals over time in the extreme as is seen in organized groups, then this is the only change that will do that. No one who plays the game needs another 3 months to make that determination. If the intent is another DoT that only punishes low-end HoTs, that's what we've got right now.

Billium813

React wrote: »

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

So we're going to start off by saying that we'll pass this feedback on to the combat team. Appreciate you posting your detailed feedback here.

Currently, we are keeping a close eye on new sets like Snake in the Stars and will continue to tune over time. We need more player interactions to see how the set will be used and in what situations. Then the team will adjust as needed. So please keep up with feedback.

On the other hand, if you can apply this to everyone in the group at once, you'll be negating perhaps 50% of their healing during that 4 second window. This large of a healing reduction across the entire group will force them to adjust their playstyles, or they'll be getting destroyed by the other incoming damage that they otherwise completely ignore currently.

Applying to everyone in the group seems a bit too oppressive. IMO, 1 single person should not make an entire 12 person ball group panic and run; they've got the numbers, they SHOULD have the advantage. What if it were applied to them and 3 allies within 10 meters?

EDIT: or have it scale in intensity for the allies, like a reverse Magma Incarnate, bouncing to allies of the affected player, growing in strength

React

NotTaylorSwift wrote: »

Yet another post asking for pvp ez mode. This ^ is simply not true. Groups aren’t “shrugging off” coldfire and oils. Ball groups are nerfed so much already. Many have left the game and new aspiring ones usually give up after a few weeks. Plaguebreak effectively removed purge from pvp for groups. Now, siege damage is unblockable for some absurd reason that was never included in any patch notes. A bug that has been left and ignored… yet again. 3-4 oil stacks are enough to start killing ballgroup members 🤷‍♂️ idk why you think they are shrugging it off as u put it.

Unblockable siege should be fixed, for sure. But to suggest that something other than ball grouping is "PVP ez mode" is very telling. It quite literally cannot get any easier than having 15k+ HPS at any given moment, every single possible buff and set bonus in the game, often times more numbers than your opponents, etc.

NotTaylorSwift wrote: »

The only ball groups remaining are the top tier ones. The others have either disbanded/are inactive/play no cp.

I don't know what server you're on, but PC NA has been absolutely filled with new and old ball groups since the server hardware was upgraded. During any given prime time, there are generally 3-5 of these groups present on the map in both of our CP enabled campaigns. Oddly enough, the game never lags until they're present as well.

NotTaylorSwift wrote: »

Stop making pvp easy for people who don’t put any effort into getting better at it!

Totally agree. Which is why the heal stacking should be adjusted. The vast majority of players I encounter from these groups when they're alone cannot actually play the game at any meaningful level - they're completely relying on the exploitative nature of their 12 man groups to make up for any combat skill or experience.

NotTaylorSwift wrote: »

[snip] It’s literally a group based game. Cyrodiil is LARGE SCALE pvp first and foremost. You CHOOSE not to take advantage of the benefits of grouping. The benefits are there for EVERYONE. You shoot yourself in the foot, no one else… it’s not even just grouping. It’s coordinated gameplay which will always come out on top no matter what. Again… this is available for everyone to take advantage of. Discord is free. Teamspeak is free. If you don’t want to use them, it’s your fault. You can’t punish everyone else for YOUR choices.

I agree that a group size-related negative bonus doesn't fit zenimax's vision for the game, and doesn't belong in cyrodiil. It is the least ideal solution to the heal stacking problem. But heal stacking is a problem, and something needs to be done about it.

[edited to remove quote]

ForumBully

Billium813 wrote: »

React wrote: »

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

So we're going to start off by saying that we'll pass this feedback on to the combat team. Appreciate you posting your detailed feedback here.

Currently, we are keeping a close eye on new sets like Snake in the Stars and will continue to tune over time. We need more player interactions to see how the set will be used and in what situations. Then the team will adjust as needed. So please keep up with feedback.

On the other hand, if you can apply this to everyone in the group at once, you'll be negating perhaps 50% of their healing during that 4 second window. This large of a healing reduction across the entire group will force them to adjust their playstyles, or they'll be getting destroyed by the other incoming damage that they otherwise completely ignore currently.

Applying to everyone in the group seems a bit too oppressive. IMO, 1 single person should not make an entire 12 person ball group panic and run; they've got the numbers, they SHOULD have the advantage. What if it were applied to them and 3 allies within 10 meters?

They've got the numbers and they do have the advantage , this is about reining in how out of balance that advantage is. Right now, it takes a faction to defeat 12, and I think that's too much advantage.

Billium813

ForumBully wrote: »

Billium813 wrote: »

React wrote: »

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

So we're going to start off by saying that we'll pass this feedback on to the combat team. Appreciate you posting your detailed feedback here.

Currently, we are keeping a close eye on new sets like Snake in the Stars and will continue to tune over time. We need more player interactions to see how the set will be used and in what situations. Then the team will adjust as needed. So please keep up with feedback.

On the other hand, if you can apply this to everyone in the group at once, you'll be negating perhaps 50% of their healing during that 4 second window. This large of a healing reduction across the entire group will force them to adjust their playstyles, or they'll be getting destroyed by the other incoming damage that they otherwise completely ignore currently.

Applying to everyone in the group seems a bit too oppressive. IMO, 1 single person should not make an entire 12 person ball group panic and run; they've got the numbers, they SHOULD have the advantage. What if it were applied to them and 3 allies within 10 meters?

They've got the numbers and they do have the advantage , this is about reining in how out of balance that advantage is. Right now, it takes a faction to defeat 12, and I think that's too much advantage.

But 2 or 3 players also should not be able to stomp a well coordinated 12 man group (outside of nukes I guess...). Maybe 2-3 players could catch destroy 1-2 of the group, but not the whole thing. I think I'm just really trying to find that line of "fairness". I'm not someone who advocates for OP mechanics in ESO or god items that can single handedly win the game. I think balance and fairness are good.

I think the biggest issue I am having with SitS atm is how we are talking about "fixing",or balancing SitS, when the bigger issues seem to be things like heal stacking. ZOS seems loath to remove heal stacking, electing instead for sets like SitS to try to balance them out. However, I agree with @React , this set feels like it is going to be really oppressive to solo players. My first reaction is to suggest that SitS scale based on group size or something, but then it just keeps coming back to how the real issues seems to be heal stacking in the first place!

ForumBully

The bottom line is, that picture in the original post is what the devs say this set is supposed to counter. That is healing in the extreme and it only happens in an organized PvP group, not by accident. If we're only going to get a set to deal with this horrible mechanic, at least make it a set that has a chance of showing results. One player proccing it against one player with that full bar of HoTs won't do anything at all.

OBJnoob

It's going to be so funny when you folks get exactly what you want and ballgroups use this to destroy pugs, small-scalers, zergs, and faction stacks alike.

Saying "groups have too many HoTs, this set won't dent it," and saying "the more HoTs my solo NB uses the more oppressive this will be," in the same conversation. LOL.

The bias against groups is reaching a disgusting level. I guess Xing 65 people just isn't enough for some folks.

1 person killing 12 is purely skill-- no broken sets or mechanics need considering. 12 killing 1? Something is wrong, oh God, we can't find a solution, let's beg the developers to literally lower grouped people's stats.

-vomit-

The_Titan_Tim

React wrote: »

Unblockable siege should be fixed, for sure. But to suggest that something other than ball grouping is "PVP ez mode" is very telling. It quite literally cannot get any easier than having 15k+ HPS at any given moment, every single possible buff and set bonus in the game, often times more numbers than your opponents, etc.

Did my eyes deceive me? Did you concede that siege should be mitigated by block? How are you going to block a giant catapult? I get that if we want to talk Roleplay, a character could hold their shield over their head to prevent Oil, but you are not blocking a massive siege weapon.

ForumBully

OBJnoob wrote: »

It's going to be so funny when you folks get exactly what you want and ballgroups use this to destroy pugs, small-scalers, zergs, and faction stacks alike.

Saying "groups have too many HoTs, this set won't dent it," and saying "the more HoTs my solo NB uses the more oppressive this will be," in the same conversation. LOL.

The bias against groups is reaching a disgusting level. I guess Xing 65 people just isn't enough for some folks.

1 person killing 12 is purely skill-- no broken sets or mechanics need considering. 12 killing 1? Something is wrong, oh God, we can't find a solution, let's beg the developers to literally lower grouped people's stats.

-vomit-

1 isn't killing 12, it's reducing their wall of incoming HoTs. No one is saying anyone in the group should have multiple stacks of SitS on them, just one a piece that is limiting the effectiveness of the 15-20k/sec incoming healing.

ForumBully

The_Titan_Tim wrote: »

React wrote: »

Unblockable siege should be fixed, for sure. But to suggest that something other than ball grouping is "PVP ez mode" is very telling. It quite literally cannot get any easier than having 15k+ HPS at any given moment, every single possible buff and set bonus in the game, often times more numbers than your opponents, etc.

Did my eyes deceive me? Did you concede that siege should be mitigated by block? How are you going to block a giant catapult? I get that if we want to talk Roleplay, a character could hold their shield over their head to prevent Oil, but you are not blocking a massive siege weapon.

The same way we block a meteor falling from the sky. Its a game and we're talking about a mechanic, not reality.

The_Titan_Tim

Another idea for this set could be stacking damage whenever you’re healed, once per half second. Up to 10 stacks, ticking DoT every second. After 3-5 seconds without a heal, the set could fall off and begin building stacks again, and add a 6-10 second cooldown period per target after it falls off.

This proposed change would be a counter to ball groups without having a meaningful impact on Solo or Small Scale as you could easily let your heals fall off and roll dodge a few times if you’re aware you have it on you, large groups are nowhere near coordinated enough to react in time.

@ZOS_Kevin

MetallicMonk

Billium813 wrote: »

it doesn't counter the exclusively defensive holding block healing players which is what people complain about
It is Oblivion Damage, so it can't be blocked

I'm not implying it can be, just that those specific players won't care about the set being used on them either.

Krone23

Tbh if you remove the 12s cooldown on application for the caster it will just complety break the game for most players not just 12 man raid Group players. In every 1vX fight or just normal Zerg fight you get healed basically every second and not for high amounts maybe if you are lucky around 2-3k hps. Now a set that does 2848 Oblivion damage every second disables basically the healing for 4 seconds. Now having 1 Person in the Zerg that can apply the set how often it wants to how many people it wants and disable their healing for 4 seconds ??? Sorry but when that will go live everyone will suffer under that set not just the 12 man Groups, cause how i know many people form cyrodill they will just have one Person in the back sitting spamming Altar all the time and then 3 people with high damage builds in front just wiping the floor with Zergs cause they cant heal. Doesnt sound like fun to me tbh.
And in my Opinion 12 man raid Groups deserve that they cant get wiped by a singel person we put legit days every patch in our builds and tactics but then a single person that didnt do much should be able to easy wipe them ?
In real life you are also not able to win in idk Soccer against a team of people that trains and plays together since years and puts days of effort in their tactics. So why should it be like this in a game ?

ForumBully

Krone23 wrote: »

Tbh if you remove the 12s cooldown on application for the caster it will just complety break the game for most players not just 12 man raid Group players. In every 1vX fight or just normal Zerg fight you get healed basically every second and not for high amounts maybe if you are lucky around 2-3k hps. Now a set that does 2848 Oblivion damage every second disables basically the healing for 4 seconds. Now having 1 Person in the Zerg that can apply the set how often it wants to how many people it wants and disable their healing for 4 seconds ??? Sorry but when that will go live everyone will suffer under that set not just the 12 man Groups, cause how i know many people form cyrodill they will just have one Person in the back sitting spamming Altar all the time and then 3 people with high damage builds in front just wiping the floor with Zergs cause they cant heal. Doesnt sound like fun to me tbh.
And in my Opinion 12 man raid Groups deserve that they cant get wiped by a singel person we put legit days every patch in our builds and tactics but then a single person that didnt do much should be able to easy wipe them ?
In real life you are also not able to win in idk Soccer against a team of people that trains and plays together since years and puts days of effort in their tactics. So why should it be like this in a game ?

This set applying to every member of a group that gets hit isn't one person wiping a group, that's a complete exaggeration. It's a brake being applied to the excessive incoming healing and it opens up a window of opportunity where it might take a few less bombs and siege to make a dent. Even then, it might not be enough. But, applying this to one person per one cast does absolutely nothing but punish solo and small scale groups.

Krone23

Also if you put some effort in your tactics and builds you are able to wipe every 12 man Group with 3-4 players.
So let the 12 man Groups have their fun and if you want to kill them put some effort in with some mates and dont rely on a single set cause otherwise you are not able to think about something to kill them. There are legit more then enough ways in the game to kill such a group if you just know how to

OBJnoob

ForumBully wrote: »

OBJnoob wrote: »

It's going to be so funny when you folks get exactly what you want and ballgroups use this to destroy pugs, small-scalers, zergs, and faction stacks alike.

Saying "groups have too many HoTs, this set won't dent it," and saying "the more HoTs my solo NB uses the more oppressive this will be," in the same conversation. LOL.

The bias against groups is reaching a disgusting level. I guess Xing 65 people just isn't enough for some folks.

1 person killing 12 is purely skill-- no broken sets or mechanics need considering. 12 killing 1? Something is wrong, oh God, we can't find a solution, let's beg the developers to literally lower grouped people's stats.

-vomit-

1 isn't killing 12, it's reducing their wall of incoming HoTs. No one is saying anyone in the group should have multiple stacks of SitS on them, just one a piece that is limiting the effectiveness of the 15-20k/sec incoming healing.

I don't want to argue with you-- I like your input. Let's just say last time I came to a SiTS thread I said this is really going to suck if it turns into yet another big red circle in the minefield of pulls and crap that is currently cyrodiil. And that IS what these conversations are not so slowly turning into.

So get ready for another DC/plaguebreak-like experience. The ongoing desire of skilled players to have tools to combat otherwise insurmountable numbers IS the cancer in this game. It gave birth to the aforementioned sets, gave birth to the tank meta, gave birth to tower trolls, mist formers...

But asking for something so unnatural is obviously going to create an abomination of mechanisms... I for one am not surprised or confused on how we got where we are. Egos. BIG egos.

Its a shame that good players command so much respect since being good at video games has NOTHING to do with being honest or mature.

ForumBully

Krone23 wrote: »

Also if you put some effort in your tactics and builds you are able to wipe every 12 man Group with 3-4 players.
So let the 12 man Groups have their fun and if you want to kill them put some effort in with some mates and dont rely on a single set cause otherwise you are not able to think about something to kill them. There are legit more then enough ways in the game to kill such a group if you just know how to

This says nothing about the functionality or intent of the set. The devs have stated an intent and right now, as it is, the set misses that mark and hits another unintended target.