Mara nerf not enough

VixxVexx

Outside of a heal per second and a burst heal it can also remove all negative effects every 15 seconds.

• Wyrd has the same cooldown but only purges and does nothing else.
• Steadfast Hero has double to cooldown (can be used on allies) and also doesn't do anything else.
• Curse eater has a shorter duration of 8 seconds but removes just 3 negative effects with some magicka return.
• Extended Ritual has a 4k+ magicka cost and removes only 5.

How about you do one of these:

• extend the cooldown of the purge to 20-30 seconds.
• remove the heal tied to the purge.
• remove the purge tied to the heal.
• limit the amount of negative effects removed.
• lower the frequency of the heal to every 2 seconds.

Just lowering the heal the 33% seems a little lazy.

Now I know this would make it harder for outnumbered pvp, this set is very useful for that. However, it shouldn't need to ruin all other scenarios.
Ideally the heal and frequency should scale with how many people are hitting you. But this probably isn't feasible.

nerf sorc

The_Titan_Tim

Or they could buff the other sets to be comparative, rather than nerf the only functioning counter to the creeping DoT meta we’ve been moving towards.

TechMaybeHic

I'm not sure what DOT meta we are going toward other than hard hitting siege; but a free purge nullifies Templar and Sorc delayed burst automatically, and after the first time when it procs right at 6 effects, it goes into a 15 second cool down; it can purge unlimited effects that the heal then scales up with. So at min, it's around a 10k burst heal tooltip, but could easily double or more.

I'd lower it's proc condition to 4 or 5, and the limit it's purge to 4 or 5. Then double it's live HOT value but make it a 2 second CD as it's getting pointless on PTS, but at the same time it's oppressive to rapid small hits like jabs on live.

EDIT:. Also the way it is now; if you single bar Maras, you control when the burst heal comes so you just swap to that bar when you have more than 6 effects and when you need it and you just have yourself a bigger burst heal than what's you could get from an ability if you had 9 or 10 negative effects

Red99

A slight nerf to mara's heal solve nothing, needs more adjustment

Solariken

Removing the burst heal would be my preference.

sunshineflame

I agree. Buff mara's. Well said everyone.

katorga

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

I'm not sure what DOT meta we are going toward other than hard hitting siege; but a free purge nullifies Templar and Sorc delayed burst automatically

The "DOT meta" is just one dot, Master DW twin slashes, with a side of Way of Fire. Every other dot is garbage damage and, if used, is used for applying a valuable secondary effect.

Mara's is sort of needed if you look at the sheer volume of status effects cluttering your character in pvp. Wyrd Tree, and the other similar sets, don't offer enough benefit to justify using them, but Mara's offers too much benefit. Mara's is essentially the old Rally with a hot and a big burst heal at the end.

Necrotech_Master

the biggest problem with the heal is that it has no cooldown, due to it triggering the heal "when a negative effect is removed"

however due to the way the game works, reapplying debuffs or dots "removes" the existing one thus triggering mara, along with the purge proc removing negative effects as well (which is the only reason it even has the burst heal, the heal is tied to effects being removed, not the purge itself)

if you have a lot of people attacking you the mara heal could easily be applying much faster than once per second

the real way to kill this set is to just limit the heal to once per second, this will put a maximum on how fast it heals along with removing the "burst" heal from the purge entirely

TechMaybeHic

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

the biggest problem with the heal is that it has no cooldown, due to it triggering the heal "when a negative effect is removed"

however due to the way the game works, reapplying debuffs or dots "removes" the existing one thus triggering mara, along with the purge proc removing negative effects as well (which is the only reason it even has the burst heal, the heal is tied to effects being removed, not the purge itself)

if you have a lot of people attacking you the mara heal could easily be applying much faster than once per second

the real way to kill this set is to just limit the heal to once per second, this will put a maximum on how fast it heals along with removing the "burst" heal from the purge entirely

It already is limited to once a second

Necrotech_Master

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

the biggest problem with the heal is that it has no cooldown, due to it triggering the heal "when a negative effect is removed"

however due to the way the game works, reapplying debuffs or dots "removes" the existing one thus triggering mara, along with the purge proc removing negative effects as well (which is the only reason it even has the burst heal, the heal is tied to effects being removed, not the purge itself)

if you have a lot of people attacking you the mara heal could easily be applying much faster than once per second

the real way to kill this set is to just limit the heal to once per second, this will put a maximum on how fast it heals along with removing the "burst" heal from the purge entirely

It already is limited to once a second

i havent really been using the set (and with the myriad of changes this set has had since it came out make it hard to keep track of lol)

if that is the case then, i would change my suggestion to just decouple the heal from the purge, or increase the cooldown on the purge if its going to do both a heal and purge

Syiccal

I love this thread lol..ppl making suggestions for a set nerf or change without having played with it or against it which is obvious from the posts..I mean if you don't play the game don't make suggestions as that's half the problem..ppl complaining about *** they have no idea about

Solariken

Syiccal wrote: »

I love this thread lol..ppl making suggestions for a set nerf or change without having played with it or against it which is obvious from the posts..I mean if you don't play the game don't make suggestions as that's half the problem..ppl complaining about *** they have no idea about

I think it's safe to say that everyone who has set foot in a PvP area has played with or against this set. It's prolific.

On classes like petless sorc it's balanced. On classes like DK and Warden it's obnoxiously OP.

Syiccal

Cutting its Hot in half goes someway to nerfing it to be fair as that heal will literally be around 4-500 now..the only benifit left is the 15s purge

VixxVexx

Damn, I thought I was going to get a lot of complaints calling for another Mara nerf.

Here's some stats (LIVE SERVER):

• If you combine both Mara heals (because one source), it outperforms other self healing sources by at least 45%.
  Disclaimer: Player has to use less self healing because of Mara's.
• Overall Mara's is 20-25% of your healing.
• The 15s purge lowered my dps on the Mara user from 2.8k to 2.1k. (-25% dps)

My conclusion: The heal is only slightly overperforming. It's the indirect mitigation from the passive/free 15s purge that is the problem.

Below is the healing log from a duel on Live Server (DK vs DK).

Red99

Syiccal wrote: »

Cutting its Hot in half goes someway to nerfing it to be fair as that heal will literally be around 4-500 now..the only benifit left is the 15s purge

The hot is not the issue, the big problem is the burst heal ( i ve seen over 15k in combat metrics) + purge with only 15 sec cooldown

Syiccal

So based on the post nerf stats is this still considered the best defensive set, I dunno

TechMaybeHic

VixxVexx wrote: »

Damn, I thought I was going to get a lot of complaints calling for another Mara nerf.

Here's some stats (LIVE SERVER):

• If you combine both Mara heals (because one source), it outperforms other self healing sources by at least 45%.
  Disclaimer: Player has to use less self healing because of Mara's.
• Overall Mara's is 20-25% of your healing.
• The 15s purge lowered my dps on the Mara user from 2.8k to 2.1k. (-25% dps)

My conclusion: The heal is only slightly overperforming. It's the indirect mitigation from the passive/free 15s purge that is the problem.

Below is the healing log from a duel on Live Server (DK vs DK).

That's for DK. Far end of it's effectiveness is templar using jabs, and low end might be NB as they kind of self buff an burst

The purge is also extra strong against templar and Sorc as their burst abilities often get removed. Not a big loss for templar at the moment; though. LoL

But that's why I said to shift to slightly bigger HoT but 2 seconds in stead of 1 to not make it such a jab mitigation. And reduce the items purged to a cap that limits the potential massive heal

Tommy_The_Gun

Tbh. I would like to know one thing:

Will Snake in Stars counter Mara, or Mara will counter Snake in Stars set ?

Never used Mara's Balm, but I am trying to figure out best possible counter-set to Snake in Stars. If there is no decent counter, then I might as well stop PvP-ing at all - which I get the feeling is ZOS intended goal as they keep introducing more & more game breaking proc sets.

Sure there is no-cp / no-proc, but for the most part it is kinda empty due to incoherent proc set rules. There would have to be significant amount of players moving there for me to move as well.

TechMaybeHic

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

Tbh. I would like to know one thing:

Will Snake in Stars counter Mara, or Mara will counter Snake in Stars set ?

Never used Mara's Balm, but I am trying to figure out best possible counter-set to Snake in Stars. If there is no decent counter, then I might as well stop PvP-ing at all - which I get the feeling is ZOS intended goal as they keep introducing more & more game breaking proc sets.

Sure there is no-cp / no-proc, but for the most part it is kinda empty due to incoherent proc set rules. There would have to be significant amount of players moving there for me to move as well.

I think you are more likely to get a snake in stars proc as it happens with healing, while Maras HOT requires a negative effect to fall off which includes being refreshed. But as is, you will only have Snek on you for 4 seconds and be immune for much longer. It so far has the Nocturnal Ploy treatment where it won't be useful to run really with all its cooldowns other than to just troll people maybe.

Now; the have in the past nerfed initial PTS items, then buff them again like Oakensoul and it be set to go live with no further changes. That should make everyone nervous.

Holycannoli

The_Titan_Tim wrote: »

Or they could buff the other sets to be comparative, rather than nerf the only functioning counter to the creeping DoT meta we’ve been moving towards.

No we don't need more buffs to the tanky meta.

Mara's needs a nerf just like Nocturnal's Ploy needed one. Maybe not as harsh a nerf (does anyone even use Nocturnal's Ploy?) but a nerf nonetheless.

And DoTs are mostly useless in PvP and even in a lot of PvE. They take way too long to do their damage. U35 was one of the worst patches the devs have put out and that's saying something.

MEBengalsFan2001

Increase the cool down to 20 seconds.
Limit the number of effect cleansed to 3.
Reduce healing on the set by 33% across the board.

Miracle19

MEBengalsFan2001 wrote: »

Increase the cool down to 20 seconds.
Limit the number of effect cleansed to 3.
Reduce healing on the set by 33% across the board.

something like this could work, or leave the healing nerf already proposed by zos and just increase the cooldown to 30s and limit the number of effects cleansed to 3-4. The purge is the biggest problem with the set.

The_Titan_Tim

Holycannoli wrote: »

The_Titan_Tim wrote: »

Or they could buff the other sets to be comparative, rather than nerf the only functioning counter to the creeping DoT meta we’ve been moving towards.

No we don't need more buffs to the tanky meta.

Mara's needs a nerf just like Nocturnal's Ploy needed one. Maybe not as harsh a nerf (does anyone even use Nocturnal's Ploy?) but a nerf nonetheless.

And DoTs are mostly useless in PvP and even in a lot of PvE. They take way too long to do their damage. U35 was one of the worst patches the devs have put out and that's saying something.

You complain about the tank meta while in the same breath stating Nocturnal’s Ploy needed a nerf? It was the quintessential counter to the tank meta, and everyone flipped the table on it.

We have a tank meta because each player you run into has stacks on stacks of major and minor buffs. Healing runs rampant as a result.

If anything Mara’s needs a fix to the problem where refreshing abilities like Jabs keep proc’ing the heal effect, but I stand by what I said about the other sets. They have received zero play time even before Mara’s Balm. Every set in the game should be comparative and Mara’s Balm makes you have to think, no other purge set outside of that and Curse Eater actually make you question equipping it over another set.

About your DoTs comment, I suggest you get into the dueling scene. Anyone worth their weight would tell you that the best dueling builds are DoT builds with intermittent burst.

Thecompton73

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

Tbh. I would like to know one thing:

Will Snake in Stars counter Mara, or Mara will counter Snake in Stars set ?

Never used Mara's Balm, but I am trying to figure out best possible counter-set to Snake in Stars. If there is no decent counter, then I might as well stop PvP-ing at all - which I get the feeling is ZOS intended goal as they keep introducing more & more game breaking proc sets.

Sure there is no-cp / no-proc, but for the most part it is kinda empty due to incoherent proc set rules. There would have to be significant amount of players moving there for me to move as well.

How Mara's will work against Snake in the Stars is:

Every time Mara's HOT procs you'll get 500 health and take 1100 damage. So a net of 2400 damage taken over a 4 second period.
If the purge isn't on CD there's the possibility it fires and cleanses Snake instantly so it does virtually no damage at all. Considering how the CD's match up for the sets it seems likely Mara's Purge and big heal could mostly negate Snake in a situation where you're having negative effects reapplied frequently.

If it's not Purged and you have 5-6 other sources of healing over time ticking every second you might be hosed no matter what. But that's kinda the point of Snake.

ketsparrowhawk

The_Titan_Tim wrote: »

Or they could buff the other sets to be comparative, rather than nerf the only functioning counter to the creeping DoT meta we’ve been moving towards.

Great idea. Let's do 5x the work rather than just addressing the one problem set.

Syiccal

So I've tested recently maras v rally cry, same build etc, I feel massively more survivable wearing maras. The last time I felt this tanky through sets was when I used pre nerf pirate skeleton...and that was an age ago. So when ppl say rally is over performing..its not.
Also maras frees up a skill slot for me as I don't need to use extended ritual and waste 5k magika to remove 5 negative effects.
It's not so much the Hot, it's the 15s purge all/heal that makes this set so much stronger than anything else.

TechMaybeHic

Rallying Cry as a defensive really only impacts crits. Maras obviously is loaded up to heal anything and everything and purge so it's kind of an odd comparison.

Syiccal

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

Rallying Cry as a defensive really only impacts crits. Maras obviously is loaded up to heal anything and everything and purge so it's kind of an odd comparison.

Yea what I was trying to get at is, the defensive heals that maras gives makes it so other defensive sets are just not in the same league right now. I compared to rally cry as that's probably the next set most players use. I include myself in that.
Whilst the purge/heal is as strong as it is there is no reason to run anything else

Billium813

Mara's Blam

(5 items) When a negative effect is removed from you, restore 1675 Health. This effect can occur once every 1 second.

It is probably impossible to do, but I'd just like to see the set no longer proc when negative effects just fall off or are reapplied. It doesn't really feel like the spirit of the sets intention to me and is EASILY the reason why the set overperforms.

If the player is using actions to purge negative effects (Purge, Break Free, ect), then sure, they should have proc heals from Mara's Balm. It's like stapling a heal to Bull Netch or stapling an extra heal to Extended Ritual synergy or stapling a heal to Expunge. If an ally wants to cast Purge, that should proc a heal, someone took an action to heal you!

But, as it currently works, it doesn't require any actual effort on the players part! When snares auto fall off, they get healed. When Minor Breach gets reapplied by the opponent, they get healed. When DoTs get reapplied, they get a heal. EVERYTHING heals them! This set is INSANE!!! It's just too much and is punching WAYYY above its weight. It isn't about HOW MUCH healing the set gives individually, its on how often to heals. It isn't all about that 15 second major purge heal, that heal pops you back up to full every 15 seconds, which is already pretty insane in 1vX situations! It's way more about that little heal every second for absolutely free and procing on literally everything.

Mara's Balm's ONLY weakness is burst! But you nerf Templar's PotL burst potential into the ground!

Wuuffyy

The_Titan_Tim wrote: »

Or they could buff the other sets to be comparative, rather than nerf the only functioning counter to the creeping DoT meta we’ve been moving towards.

Agreed. We don’t need another indirect buff to DK, especially as Templar remains fairly weak and underplayed outside of a few niche specs.

All classes need access to a meaningful Purge that is somewhat sustainable and has auxiliary effects. (This is not a 3 purge 5-6k cost move with nothing else).

Also, I find it interesting you say the Wyrd set. It actually needed a buff and could have easily been what Mara’s is now.

This set can remain in it’s current state until they make all classes have a comparable purge to plar/necro or at least a “free” purge like warden.

Melzo

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

Rallying Cry as a defensive really only impacts crits. Maras obviously is loaded up to heal anything and everything and purge so it's kind of an odd comparison.

Inappropriate comparison. One set buffs and works all the time, while the other is still equipped. In this case, the first one buffs the group.