Are we going to discuss Ash Cloud?

CheeseTuber

The_Titan_Tim wrote: »

Dragonknight DPS are better off, it’s a massive DPS loss to spam any Earthen Heart ability, so the 2 second timer on it is irrelevant, if anything, you’re gaining an extra 220 for when you switch to your backbar to reapply your buffs.

I will take your word for it. But I will see how it feels once the update hits live servers. I already have 300ms ping on live, really don't want to try PTS where the ping might be worse

The thing about this passive change is that it really doesn't benefit someone like me who uses stam DK in PvE situations since I don't use any Earthen Ability other than Eruption. Usually, only refresh the ability every 15 or so seconds on the back bar. It was a good way to recover stamina and use a mag recovery buff food to sustain whip. I suppose next patch all of us stamina characters will be using wrecking blow anyway I guess. Don't really like that skill as channelled ability with my 300ms ping is torture but I don't think I can sustain whips anymore.

Auldwulfe

While I am actually glad to see an exploit being addressed..... it does nothing to address WHY the exploit became necessary in the first place, in some play. I avoided using this for a long time, but ended up having to add it to do tanking in VET dungeon PUGS -- I have been doing 3 to 5 a day, sometimes more, to help out those people trying to get gear sets, etc. The queue times for getting a tank are long... and it is the one role that NEVER has to wait in queue, when entering. Even my healer usually has to wait a minute or two.... my DPS have gotten so long, I don't bother..... but as soon as I queue tank, I have a dungeon up.

That tells me that we are very short on tanks... and that includes all the "fake tanks" out there.....
However, we also have a plethora of idiots in the game that think that full sprint is their only option.
I had it last night in a dungeon on normal -- I was using my level 22 healer, and we had a level 11 and level 13 pair of characters, the tank being the level 13, and just learning.... and a champion 485 DPS, who proceeded to race ahead, and killed the last boss, while the others were on the first one ... and then killed bosses coming back to the rest.....

So, the low levels (both in their first dungeon, as I found out) lost out on every treasure except the first one, and the quest item (I did give them what I got, as my book is full, but still....)

And trust me, in VET this is the norm -- new players trying to get monster sets, and idiots racing to the last boss and denying them that piece --- as a tank, I try and shepherd the new people, so that they can, at least, get their gear sets and improve .....

But, if my health is "too low", because I need to put more in stamina, or I run out of stamina, because the one bar wonder heavy attack lightning group won't stop for anyone..... then I am accused of being a "fake tank"... or other abuse.

I am not going to take that abuse .... and while I still wish to help those that need it.... I will probably stop queuing up so much with my tank..... the idiots that created a need for an exploit can just do without, or do with actual "fake tanks" that don't do their role.

As I noted before -- I rarely use this, for me, Ash Cloud is a 70% snare that lets me slow a group of adds long enough for my DPS to get on them, and depending on which morph, is either one more back up heal, if needed, or a touch more AOE damage to help the group .... I have entire dungeons where I only use it once or twice..... and it appears that I will still be able to do that, and that the cost reduction will still work there.... so I still get the effect, and I, probably, won't notice outside of the situation above ......

So, the best option is to avoid that situation, and only tank with guild members or other friends, when I tank.... we still can pull randoms and get all the rewards I would have gotten with a PUG....

Auldwulfe

Billium813

Auldwulfe wrote: »

While I am actually glad to see an exploit being addressed..... it does nothing to address WHY the exploit became necessary in the first place, in some play. I avoided using this for a long time, but ended up having to add it to do tanking in VET dungeon PUGS --

I mean, the exploit was never necessary. Just like every exploit that has ever existed in any game ever, players used it because it was convenient and trivialized the gameplay. Why worry about Sturdy traits when you can just infinite block with infinite stamina? Let's just sprint everywhere and spam abilities with no awareness or thought. I agree it probably gave Tanks, who had no idea what they were doing, a crutch to lean on. But just to be clear, there are plenty of Vet level DK Tanks that didn't need it. It was a DK Tank easy mode and just because it incentivized brain dead tanks, doesn't mean there are underlying DK Tank issues in harder difficulties.

Now, your other issues with there not being enough tanks... that's an entirely different issue unrelated to this exploit. The game doesn't need more exploits to encourage players to Tank. It needs more mechanics that make Tanking engaging and fun. Sets like Void Bash, imo, help there as they are very fun.

Auldwulfe

Billium813 wrote: »

Auldwulfe wrote: »

While I am actually glad to see an exploit being addressed..... it does nothing to address WHY the exploit became necessary in the first place, in some play. I avoided using this for a long time, but ended up having to add it to do tanking in VET dungeon PUGS --

I mean, the exploit was never necessary. Just like every exploit that has ever existed in any game ever, players used it because it was convenient and trivialized the gameplay. Why worry about Sturdy traits when you can just infinite block with infinite stamina? Let's just sprint everywhere and spam abilities with no awareness or thought. I agree it probably gave Tanks, who had no idea what they were doing, a crutch to lean on. But just to be clear, there are plenty of Vet level DK Tanks that didn't need it. It was a DK Tank easy mode and just because it incentivized brain dead tanks, doesn't mean there are underlying DK Tank issues in harder difficulties.

Now, your other issues with there not being enough tanks... that's an entirely different issue unrelated to this exploit. The game doesn't need more exploits to encourage players to Tank. It needs more mechanics that make Tanking engaging and fun. Sets like Void Bash, imo, help there as they are very fun.

Not arguing the point -- as I noted, I avoided using it forever .... until it became expected to use it, and you were criticized for NOT using it ......

Outside of the one issue, I rarely bother, other than having that nice 70% snare to slow a group of adds for a moment ... and that is still going to be a thing, so not a worry .... but I do see the PUG situation becoming more abusive, and difficult with the fix to the exploit. Like the U35 change to light attacks, I see unintended consequences on this, and am looking to make sure those are considered.

I can tank just as easily with ANY class --- I liked my DK because he amuses me, and I can breathe fire on groups of adds, and that is fun..... I like the combo of Ash Cloud and Firebreath, or the "Herd and Burn" as I refer to it. The combo of the damaging morph for Ash Cloud, and then the flame gives me the closest thing we have to a group taunt ...... at least for a couple of seconds.

Then again, I like to build my characters for fun... hence my current NB Healer ...... which is surprisingly good at it.
That, however would be a fun discussion in another thread - back to this one - I would argue that referring to it as a "crutch" or calling people "low awareness" is rather rude, as the situation for many tanks that used this was caused by other classes, roles, and players ...... so while fixing an exploit is a good thing, we might want to reconsider the side effects of it.

Auldwulfe

Billium813

Auldwulfe wrote: »

Billium813 wrote: »

Auldwulfe wrote: »

While I am actually glad to see an exploit being addressed..... it does nothing to address WHY the exploit became necessary in the first place, in some play. I avoided using this for a long time, but ended up having to add it to do tanking in VET dungeon PUGS --

I mean, the exploit was never necessary. Just like every exploit that has ever existed in any game ever, players used it because it was convenient and trivialized the gameplay. Why worry about Sturdy traits when you can just infinite block with infinite stamina? Let's just sprint everywhere and spam abilities with no awareness or thought. I agree it probably gave Tanks, who had no idea what they were doing, a crutch to lean on. But just to be clear, there are plenty of Vet level DK Tanks that didn't need it. It was a DK Tank easy mode and just because it incentivized brain dead tanks, doesn't mean there are underlying DK Tank issues in harder difficulties.

Now, your other issues with there not being enough tanks... that's an entirely different issue unrelated to this exploit. The game doesn't need more exploits to encourage players to Tank. It needs more mechanics that make Tanking engaging and fun. Sets like Void Bash, imo, help there as they are very fun.

I would argue that referring to it as a "crutch" or calling people "low awareness" is rather rude, as the situation for many tanks that used this was caused by other classes, roles, and players ...... so while fixing an exploit is a good thing, we might want to reconsider the side effects of it.

Rude and true are not mutually exclusive. There are Tanking videos and guides that instructed players on using this Ash Cloud exploit to hold perpetual block. It trivialized the reason why Tanks have 4+ Sturdy traits. It encouraged bad behavior to allow players to spam abilities. It lowered the bar on Tanking so much that some players will get slapped with a cold reality when this change goes live; of that I'm sure.

And that isn't necessarily the players fault and I don't mean to insinuate that all player were consciously doing it! Many players new to tank were surely coasting on this exploit; even unknowingly. Those players have my sympathy, but now they will need to learn how to do things proper; they will need to realize how Tanking really works. I'm sure some will be turned away by it, and perhaps some will realize the mistake and correct. Some players like easy mode and some don't. Who knows what the percentages will be, but I don't think the side effect of hurt feelings from an exploit fix should be counted.