Are we going to discuss Ash Cloud?

The_Titan_Tim

@ZOS_GinaBruno, patches ago you mentioned that part of the direction Dragonknight was heading was towards a more difficult sustain management back when Combustion was nerfed yet we have players throwing one reduce magicka cost glyph on an infused piece of jewelry able to cast Ash Cloud for free, repeatedly, exploiting Helping Hands to obtain unlimited Stamina while block-casting.

Is this working as intended? Or in the direction that your team envisioned for Dragonknight?

Edited to include the High Isle reasoning behind the Combustion nerf…

Jayne_Doe

I really like the new Ash Cloud as it's really helped with my sustain. I do not use a reduction glyph, however. I also don't repeatedly cast it except when I need to when the enemies have moved out of my cloud - I use the damage morph. There is a cooldown on the upfront damage when casting, so it's basically just moving the DOT to where the enemies are.

I think they need to do something to counteract the exploit, but I hope it's not to change it back to the previous 5K upfront cost. Maybe they can flag this specific skill to not work with Helping Hands, which would probably eliminate the spamming of this skill for the stamina gain.

I presume that only the initial cast is affected by the reduction? Which would mean that the ticks would still cost the player Magicka. If it doesn't, they at least should fix that, and perhaps also flag Ash Cloud as an ability not affected by these glyphs?

I'd really hate for them to go away from the intended sustain benefit just to counter-act an exploit.

The_Titan_Tim

Jayne_Doe wrote: »

I really like the new Ash Cloud as it's really helped with my sustain. I do not use a reduction glyph, however. I also don't repeatedly cast it except when I need to when the enemies have moved out of my cloud - I use the damage morph. There is a cooldown on the upfront damage when casting, so it's basically just moving the DOT to where the enemies are.

I think they need to do something to counteract the exploit, but I hope it's not to change it back to the previous 5K upfront cost. Maybe they can flag this specific skill to not work with Helping Hands, which would probably eliminate the spamming of this skill for the stamina gain.

I presume that only the initial cast is affected by the reduction? Which would mean that the ticks would still cost the player Magicka. If it doesn't, they at least should fix that, and perhaps also flag Ash Cloud as an ability not affected by these glyphs?

I'd really hate for them to go away from the intended sustain benefit just to counter-act an exploit.

Ash Cloud is entirely free as it benefits from the reduced cost for the whole duration.

Removing Ash Cloud from helping hands would be the easiest solution.

The_Titan_Tim

@ZOS_BrianWheeler

sneakymitchell

It’s fine the way it is. Helps dk substain and casting it has an animation so trying to spam it won’t give stamina back every sec. So you might get around 450-550 a sec depending on server ping and such which isn’t too bad.

The_Titan_Tim

sneakymitchell wrote: »

It’s fine the way it is. Helps dk substain and casting it has an animation so trying to spam it won’t give stamina back every sec. So you might get around 450-550 a sec depending on server ping and such which isn’t too bad.

I can’t tell if you’re being serious or not so I’m going to assume the latter. It’s a known exploit getting taken advantage of by every DK right now.

The_Titan_Tim

@ZOS_RichLambert

sneakymitchell

The_Titan_Tim wrote: »

sneakymitchell wrote: »

It’s fine the way it is. Helps dk substain and casting it has an animation so trying to spam it won’t give stamina back every sec. So you might get around 450-550 a sec depending on server ping and such which isn’t too bad.

I can’t tell if you’re being serious or not so I’m going to assume the latter. It’s a known exploit getting taken advantage of by every DK right now.

It’s been like this for over a year they would have change it if it wasn’t that bad.

Every class has its own unquie substain look at warden for example they can summon a Netch to give them resources for free. While holding block

The_Titan_Tim

sneakymitchell wrote: »

The_Titan_Tim wrote: »

sneakymitchell wrote: »

It’s fine the way it is. Helps dk substain and casting it has an animation so trying to spam it won’t give stamina back every sec. So you might get around 450-550 a sec depending on server ping and such which isn’t too bad.

I can’t tell if you’re being serious or not so I’m going to assume the latter. It’s a known exploit getting taken advantage of by every DK right now.

It’s been like this for over a year they would have change it if it wasn’t that bad.

Every class has its own unquie substain look at warden for example they can summon a Netch to give them resources for free. While holding block

The Betty Netch isn’t a 70% AoE snare heal that provides Minor Brutality, granting 3 ultimate every 6 seconds while returning 990 Stamina every time you cast it, completely for free.

That’s a horrible comparison.

Edit: Just checked the value of Bull Netch…
It’s 4992 Stamina over 25 seconds.

4992 / 25 = 199 Stamina a second.

990 > 199… night and day.

sneakymitchell

The_Titan_Tim wrote: »

sneakymitchell wrote: »

The_Titan_Tim wrote: »

sneakymitchell wrote: »

It’s fine the way it is. Helps dk substain and casting it has an animation so trying to spam it won’t give stamina back every sec. So you might get around 450-550 a sec depending on server ping and such which isn’t too bad.

I can’t tell if you’re being serious or not so I’m going to assume the latter. It’s a known exploit getting taken advantage of by every DK right now.

It’s been like this for over a year they would have change it if it wasn’t that bad.

Every class has its own unquie substain look at warden for example they can summon a Netch to give them resources for free. While holding block

The Betty Netch isn’t a 70% AoE snare heal that provides Minor Brutality, granting 3 ultimate every 6 seconds while returning 990 Stamina every time you cast it, completely for free.

That’s a horrible comparison.

Edit: Just checked the value of Bull Netch…
It’s 4992 Stamina over 25 seconds.

4992 / 25 = 199 Stamina a second.

990 > 199… night and day.

And yet you can heal yourself over and over while giving you minor toughness. When you summon and recast Netch over and over

The_Titan_Tim

sneakymitchell wrote: »

The_Titan_Tim wrote: »

sneakymitchell wrote: »

The_Titan_Tim wrote: »

sneakymitchell wrote: »

It’s fine the way it is. Helps dk substain and casting it has an animation so trying to spam it won’t give stamina back every sec. So you might get around 450-550 a sec depending on server ping and such which isn’t too bad.

I can’t tell if you’re being serious or not so I’m going to assume the latter. It’s a known exploit getting taken advantage of by every DK right now.

It’s been like this for over a year they would have change it if it wasn’t that bad.

Every class has its own unquie substain look at warden for example they can summon a Netch to give them resources for free. While holding block

The Betty Netch isn’t a 70% AoE snare heal that provides Minor Brutality, granting 3 ultimate every 6 seconds while returning 990 Stamina every time you cast it, completely for free.

That’s a horrible comparison.

Edit: Just checked the value of Bull Netch…
It’s 4992 Stamina over 25 seconds.

4992 / 25 = 199 Stamina a second.

990 > 199… night and day.

And yet you can heal yourself over and over while giving you minor toughness. When you summon and recast Netch over and over

We’re not talking about health or healing, we’re talking about sustain, stop trying to derail this discussion with all of this talk about Wardens.

Those values provided by the Netch don’t break the game or prevent you from killing Wardens while Dragonknights become unkillable.

I have never in my time playing, heard someone complain that the Netch was overperforming.

The_Titan_Tim

@ZOS_Kevin

twing1_

Easy solution: Switch the recast ability cost away from the remainder magicka cost of the ability to a flat magicka amount.

Ex/

Recasting this ability early (before the effects expire) will cost 3000 (or some other amount) magicka. The recasted ability continues to cost xxx magicka/second as well.

The_Titan_Tim

twing1_ wrote: »

Easy solution: Switch the recast ability cost away from the remainder magicka cost of the ability to a flat magicka amount.

Ex/

Recasting this ability early (before the effects expire) will cost 3000 magicka. The recasted ability continues to cost xxx magicka/second as well.

I like this, and definitely could get behind it as a potential solution to this exploit.

sneakymitchell

The_Titan_Tim wrote: »

sneakymitchell wrote: »

The_Titan_Tim wrote: »

sneakymitchell wrote: »

The_Titan_Tim wrote: »

sneakymitchell wrote: »

It’s fine the way it is. Helps dk substain and casting it has an animation so trying to spam it won’t give stamina back every sec. So you might get around 450-550 a sec depending on server ping and such which isn’t too bad.

I can’t tell if you’re being serious or not so I’m going to assume the latter. It’s a known exploit getting taken advantage of by every DK right now.

It’s been like this for over a year they would have change it if it wasn’t that bad.

Every class has its own unquie substain look at warden for example they can summon a Netch to give them resources for free. While holding block

The Betty Netch isn’t a 70% AoE snare heal that provides Minor Brutality, granting 3 ultimate every 6 seconds while returning 990 Stamina every time you cast it, completely for free.

That’s a horrible comparison.

Edit: Just checked the value of Bull Netch…
It’s 4992 Stamina over 25 seconds.

4992 / 25 = 199 Stamina a second.

990 > 199… night and day.

And yet you can heal yourself over and over while giving you minor toughness. When you summon and recast Netch over and over

We’re not talking about health or healing, we’re talking about sustain, stop trying to derail this discussion with all of this talk about Wardens.

Those values provided by the Netch don’t break the game or prevent you from killing Wardens while Dragonknights become unkillable.

I have never in my time playing, heard someone complain that the Netch was overperforming.

Wardens can be unkillable with there healing giving major mend at low hp and the healing ultimate gives back ultimate at very low cost

The_Titan_Tim

sneakymitchell wrote: »

The_Titan_Tim wrote: »

sneakymitchell wrote: »

The_Titan_Tim wrote: »

sneakymitchell wrote: »

The_Titan_Tim wrote: »

sneakymitchell wrote: »

It’s fine the way it is. Helps dk substain and casting it has an animation so trying to spam it won’t give stamina back every sec. So you might get around 450-550 a sec depending on server ping and such which isn’t too bad.

I can’t tell if you’re being serious or not so I’m going to assume the latter. It’s a known exploit getting taken advantage of by every DK right now.

It’s been like this for over a year they would have change it if it wasn’t that bad.

Every class has its own unquie substain look at warden for example they can summon a Netch to give them resources for free. While holding block

The Betty Netch isn’t a 70% AoE snare heal that provides Minor Brutality, granting 3 ultimate every 6 seconds while returning 990 Stamina every time you cast it, completely for free.

That’s a horrible comparison.

Edit: Just checked the value of Bull Netch…
It’s 4992 Stamina over 25 seconds.

4992 / 25 = 199 Stamina a second.

990 > 199… night and day.

And yet you can heal yourself over and over while giving you minor toughness. When you summon and recast Netch over and over

We’re not talking about health or healing, we’re talking about sustain, stop trying to derail this discussion with all of this talk about Wardens.

Those values provided by the Netch don’t break the game or prevent you from killing Wardens while Dragonknights become unkillable.

I have never in my time playing, heard someone complain that the Netch was overperforming.

Wardens can be unkillable with there healing giving major mend at low hp and the healing ultimate gives back ultimate at very low cost

If you want to discuss Warden balance, feel free to start a new discussion and link it.

The_Titan_Tim

Any ZOS acknowledgment would be appreciated, if it’s working as intended, I need to know.

Last thing I want is to get reported for exploiting while doing this.

Urzigurumash

Why nerf DK? It exists for those who like to clean up the competition using an easy, 2 button offense. Previously it was JabsPlar, before that it was PetSorc, now it's Flames of Oblivion DK. If you enjoy playing against yourself as much as the competition pick another class.

More seriously though, here's something I wrote earlier this year:

It has about the same Mag per Stam ratio as the instant restoration part of Dark Deal - except Ash Cloud only restores a little more than 1/3 as much Stam as this part of Dark Deal and has no heal. I.e., in order to get the same instant Stam return out of Ash Cloud that you do Dark Deal it costs 3x the GCDs. Yes Dark Deal has a cast time but it also the Stam over Time return.

Urzigurumash

Speaking of which let me channel the spirit of JabsPlar and PetSorc from their prime... "Whip and Flames of Obliv can be blocked and dodged, sounds like an L2P issue"

Necrotech_Master

im pretty sure this was intended, there was an issue a long while ago where cost reduction glyphs stopped applying to the cloud, and they fixed it so cost reduction would apply to the cloud again

Vrienda

There's no issue with it. It doesn't need "fixing"

The_Titan_Tim

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

im pretty sure this was intended, there was an issue a long while ago where cost reduction glyphs stopped applying to the cloud, and they fixed it so cost reduction would apply to the cloud again

Reducing the cost to zero isn’t the problem, it’s the repeated triggering of Helping Hands that is.

Urzigurumash

The_Titan_Tim wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

im pretty sure this was intended, there was an issue a long while ago where cost reduction glyphs stopped applying to the cloud, and they fixed it so cost reduction would apply to the cloud again

Reducing the cost to zero isn’t the problem, it’s the repeated triggering of Helping Hands that is.

Let me repeat, "in order to get the same instant Stam return out of Ash Cloud that you do Dark Deal it costs 3x the GCDs"

This doesn't justify the blockcastability - if you evaluate the skill in isolation, with no regard for the otherwise OPness of DK?

The_Titan_Tim

Urzigurumash wrote: »

The_Titan_Tim wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

im pretty sure this was intended, there was an issue a long while ago where cost reduction glyphs stopped applying to the cloud, and they fixed it so cost reduction would apply to the cloud again

Reducing the cost to zero isn’t the problem, it’s the repeated triggering of Helping Hands that is.

Let me repeat, "in order to get the same instant Stam return out of Ash Cloud that you do Dark Deal it costs 3x the GCDs"

This doesn't justify the blockcastability - if you evaluate the skill in isolation, with no regard for the otherwise OPness of DK?

Part of the identity of Sorcerer is its ability to sustain, sustain was never meant to be the direction of Dragonknight, as mentioned in the High Isle patch notes when Combustion was nerfed.

Sorcerer needs sustain to make up for it’s lack of mitigation and healing.

I highlighted where @ZOS_GinaBruno made the statement, and this is straight from ZOS… no interpretation needed.

The_Titan_Tim

Urzigurumash wrote: »

The_Titan_Tim wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

im pretty sure this was intended, there was an issue a long while ago where cost reduction glyphs stopped applying to the cloud, and they fixed it so cost reduction would apply to the cloud again

Reducing the cost to zero isn’t the problem, it’s the repeated triggering of Helping Hands that is.

Let me repeat, "in order to get the same instant Stam return out of Ash Cloud that you do Dark Deal it costs 3x the GCDs"

This doesn't justify the blockcastability - if you evaluate the skill in isolation, with no regard for the otherwise OPness of DK?

Let’s not derail the topic with discussion about Sorcerer, because we could go into depth about all the things Dragonknight has, that Sorcerer does not… and we would have a full fledged list.

Urzigurumash

The_Titan_Tim wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

The_Titan_Tim wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

im pretty sure this was intended, there was an issue a long while ago where cost reduction glyphs stopped applying to the cloud, and they fixed it so cost reduction would apply to the cloud again

Reducing the cost to zero isn’t the problem, it’s the repeated triggering of Helping Hands that is.

Let me repeat, "in order to get the same instant Stam return out of Ash Cloud that you do Dark Deal it costs 3x the GCDs"

This doesn't justify the blockcastability - if you evaluate the skill in isolation, with no regard for the otherwise OPness of DK?

Let’s not derail the topic with discussion about Sorcerer, because we could go into depth about all the things Dragonknight has, that Sorcerer does not… and we would have a full fledged list.

Fair point, I say what you just said all the time, classes should have unique strengths and weaknesses.

But I've said plenty about this idea that DK should suffer sustain. We often see people commenting as though PvP builds only have two ends - Damage and Defense. No, there's also Speed and Sustain.

On that topic I've often said - DK should have no speed outside of Leap (or Chains, I guess), but should have Sustain only while -

1. In Melee Combat
2. Operating in the manner of a Tank, not a Kiter

The blockcastability of Ash Could helps fulfill this vision in a way thematically dissimilar to Sorc, a Kiter Class, but, maybe it shouldn't do anything at all unless an opponent is within the AoE.

The_Titan_Tim

Urzigurumash wrote: »

The_Titan_Tim wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

The_Titan_Tim wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

im pretty sure this was intended, there was an issue a long while ago where cost reduction glyphs stopped applying to the cloud, and they fixed it so cost reduction would apply to the cloud again

Reducing the cost to zero isn’t the problem, it’s the repeated triggering of Helping Hands that is.

Let me repeat, "in order to get the same instant Stam return out of Ash Cloud that you do Dark Deal it costs 3x the GCDs"

This doesn't justify the blockcastability - if you evaluate the skill in isolation, with no regard for the otherwise OPness of DK?

Let’s not derail the topic with discussion about Sorcerer, because we could go into depth about all the things Dragonknight has, that Sorcerer does not… and we would have a full fledged list.

Fair point, I say what you just said all the time, classes should have unique strengths and weaknesses.

But I've said plenty about this idea that DK should suffer sustain. We often see people commenting as though PvP builds only have two ends - Damage and Defense. No, there's also Speed and Sustain.

On that topic I've often said - DK should have no speed outside of Leap (or Chains, I guess), but should have Sustain only while -

1. In Melee Combat
2. Operating in the manner of a Tank, not a Kiter

The blockcastability of Ash Could helps fulfill this vision in a way thematically dissimilar to Sorc, a Kiter Class, but, maybe it shouldn't do anything at all unless an opponent is within the AoE.

I like your suggestion, my only problem with it is that Ash Cloud is not an ability centered around the caster, but an ability the user can place anywhere… repeatedly.

Urzigurumash

The_Titan_Tim wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

The_Titan_Tim wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

The_Titan_Tim wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

im pretty sure this was intended, there was an issue a long while ago where cost reduction glyphs stopped applying to the cloud, and they fixed it so cost reduction would apply to the cloud again

Reducing the cost to zero isn’t the problem, it’s the repeated triggering of Helping Hands that is.

Let me repeat, "in order to get the same instant Stam return out of Ash Cloud that you do Dark Deal it costs 3x the GCDs"

This doesn't justify the blockcastability - if you evaluate the skill in isolation, with no regard for the otherwise OPness of DK?

Let’s not derail the topic with discussion about Sorcerer, because we could go into depth about all the things Dragonknight has, that Sorcerer does not… and we would have a full fledged list.

Fair point, I say what you just said all the time, classes should have unique strengths and weaknesses.

But I've said plenty about this idea that DK should suffer sustain. We often see people commenting as though PvP builds only have two ends - Damage and Defense. No, there's also Speed and Sustain.

On that topic I've often said - DK should have no speed outside of Leap (or Chains, I guess), but should have Sustain only while -

1. In Melee Combat
2. Operating in the manner of a Tank, not a Kiter

The blockcastability of Ash Could helps fulfill this vision in a way thematically dissimilar to Sorc, a Kiter Class, but, maybe it shouldn't do anything at all unless an opponent is within the AoE.

I like your suggestion, my only problem with it is that Ash Cloud is not an ability centered around the caster, but an ability the user can place anywhere… repeatedly.

True, my suggestion would take some mechanical change to work, so maybe not a good suggestion. But just removing it from Helping Hands kind of waters down the class no? Excepting any skill from its skill tree's passive effect isn't very thematically pleasing, are there any like that?

Urzigurumash

This suggestion to remove it from Helping Hands does work mechanically however. Of course nobody ever used this before to sustain Stam, for PvP StamDK it was always Frag Shield we used for this, not Ash Cloud, which if I recall cost the most Mag of any DK skill, could be wrong there.

Hard anybody ever used Ash Cloud in PvP at all. Thing is it's a cool animation so we always wanted to.

I suspect its cost was lowered to ease landing the Direct hit of Eruption, rather than to provide DK with a new source of Stam sustain.

On the other hand, for a long time I said StamDK needed a good offensive Earthern Heart skill to proc the passive effects (the Minor Brutality and the Ult Gen, not the Stam) rather than the Major Mending skill, to me that's Eruption right now, easily.

Urzigurumash

Urzigurumash wrote: »

Excepting any skill from its skill tree's passive effect isn't very thematically pleasing, are there any like that?

How could I have forgotten, of course there is - Stone Giant.

The_Titan_Tim

Urzigurumash wrote: »

This suggestion to remove it from Helping Hands does work mechanically however. Of course nobody ever used this before to sustain Stam, for PvP StamDK it was always Frag Shield we used for this, not Ash Cloud, which if I recall cost the most Mag of any DK skill, could be wrong there.

Hard anybody ever used Ash Cloud in PvP at all. Thing is it's a cool animation so we always wanted to.

I suspect its cost was lowered to ease landing the Direct hit of Eruption, rather than to provide DK with a new source of Stam sustain.

On the other hand, for a long time I said StamDK needed a good offensive Earthern Heart skill to proc the passive effects rather than the Major Mending skill, to me that's Eruption right now, easily.

Exactly, from ZOS’s statement, it’s pushing the class in a direction that was not intended while enabling players to reduce the cost to literally nothing when it’s lowered cost was intended to allow players to move the ability with less of a punishment. Ash Cloud triggering Helping Hands was an oversight.