Official Discussion Thread, "Unveiling The New Arcanist Class"

mdb800

Seraphayel wrote: »

The entire class just doesn’t fit an Elder Scrolls game. Neither visually nor thematically. It’s just way too specific and flashy in the way of relying too much on other RPGs or animes.

What is was half way thinking but, I believe a few changes might mean a lot of difference to make it lore friendly. Keep basically what they got but cut the guff that pushes it out of elder scrolls

mdb800

Syldras wrote: »

mdb800 wrote: »

Everything shown about the class seems fine; just change the animation to not include harrypotter-fantasy-anime-dnd 📚 doing the fighting. Make it like it is something from the elder scrolls universe.

I see it as another aspect in which they wanted to include this year's Lovecraftian theme (his stories have a focus on books, librarians, cultists..., among other things). Not mainly anime or Harry Potter.

And in pursuit of that; in the depth and richness of Elder scrolls lore; they missed ( which is understandable) the fact that no paper being read can change reality in nirn except for the elder scrolls themselves. The concept of reading books as a means to cast spells has been visited in all the elder scrolls games I have played and it is very clear; holding books in hand provides zero combat value ( runes do). Keeping the class as is would be like retroactively saying that yokuda didn't sink. The elder scrolls or the only written documents in nirn that can cause magic to happen by reading them. Not to say there aren't any books without knowledge how to gain such power.

Syldras

mdb800 wrote: »

And in pursuit of that; in the depth and richness of Elder scrolls lore; they missed ( which is understandable) the fact that no paper being read can change reality in nirn except for the elder scrolls themselves. The concept of reading books as a means to cast spells has been visited in all the elder scrolls games I have played and it is very clear; holding books in hand provides zero combat value ( runes do). Keeping the class as is would be like retroactively saying that yokuda didn't sink. The elder scrolls or the only written documents in nirn that can cause magic to happen by reading them. Not to say there aren't any books without knowledge how to gain such power.

But is it the book that changes reality in this case? It's not even one of Hermaeus Mora's Black Books - they emphasized that in the announcement stream - but something like a personal grimoire of the Arkanist. Basically a notebook. I'd assume the magic doesn't come from the book itself, but from the character.

Elsonso

mdb800 wrote: »

Syldras wrote: »

mdb800 wrote: »

Everything shown about the class seems fine; just change the animation to not include harrypotter-fantasy-anime-dnd 📚 doing the fighting. Make it like it is something from the elder scrolls universe.

I see it as another aspect in which they wanted to include this year's Lovecraftian theme (his stories have a focus on books, librarians, cultists..., among other things). Not mainly anime or Harry Potter.

And in pursuit of that; in the depth and richness of Elder scrolls lore; they missed ( which is understandable) the fact that no paper being read can change reality in nirn except for the elder scrolls themselves. The concept of reading books as a means to cast spells has been visited in all the elder scrolls games I have played and it is very clear; holding books in hand provides zero combat value ( runes do). Keeping the class as is would be like retroactively saying that yokuda didn't sink. The elder scrolls or the only written documents in nirn that can cause magic to happen by reading them. Not to say there aren't any books without knowledge how to gain such power.

What seems to be new with the Arcanist is multiple use spell items.

In Oblivion and Skyrim, the spell scrolls go away when they are used. It does not look like the Arcanist books, if they are actually books, go away after use. Being able to reuse this material is a very powerful change to the Lore.

Syldras

Elsonso wrote: »

In Oblivion and Skyrim, the spell scrolls go away when they are used. It does not look like the Arcanist books, if they are actually books, go away after use. Being able to reuse this material is a very powerful change to the Lore.

Makes me think... How about this basically being something like a collection of "scrolls", with single pages disappearing after use? Scrolls aren't more than pages of paper either. There's nothing in lore that says they could not be bound in book-form, or am I wrong?

Elsonso

Syldras wrote: »

Elsonso wrote: »

In Oblivion and Skyrim, the spell scrolls go away when they are used. It does not look like the Arcanist books, if they are actually books, go away after use. Being able to reuse this material is a very powerful change to the Lore.

Makes me think... How about this basically being something like a collection of "scrolls", with single pages disappearing after use? Scrolls aren't more than pages of paper either. There's nothing in lore that says they could not be bound in book-form, or am I wrong?

It doesn't happen in the 3rd Era. Spell scrolls are single use, single sheet, unbound. I have never seen any Lore to suggest why they can't be bound, though. Seems to me that if they could, they would be, so FWIW, I don't think they can.

Syldras

Elsonso wrote: »

It doesn't happen in the 3rd Era. Spell scrolls are single use, single sheet, unbound. I have never seen any Lore to suggest why they can't be bound, though. Seems to me that if they could, they would be, so FWIW, I don't think they can.

It probably depends on how many scrolls the average user carries with them. If it's only 2 or 3, a whole book wouldn't make sense. If it's a multitude, a book would be handier than a bunch of unsorted scrolls.

Maybe it's also some special Hermaeus Mora nerd thing, who knows The Arcanist is a very unusual character after all, not the average Joe, and cultic beliefs may also play a role (and in HM cults, books are basically "sacred").

Without a lore explanation from ZOS, it's hard to debate whether it makes sense or not.

Artheiron

I liked the design, it looks fresh and somewhat grounded. I found necromancer somewhat underwhelming for instance, can't say the same for this class. however guild wars 2 understood that giving portals to one class isn't fair for anyone and eventually they released items that can be used in open world to make portals not exclusive to one class. I'm expecting something similar from you depending on how easy exploring will be with this class.

Also, the game desperately needs new skills that can be used for everyone. I guess it's the best time for you guys to actually work on spellcrafting. I know this topic is keep coming back to you, but seriously, identity wise It'll be a MASSIVE positive impact for elder scrolls online to catch up with other elder scrolls games we got. I can't imagine a tes game without my guy throwing fireballs and summoning creatures from oblivion.

Hesperax79

If Arkanist will not be a single class but 3 different skill line for everyone this would be the stronges Chapter ever. But this is another missed oportunity.

Seraphayel

I can already guarantee you that the portal will be heavily restricted so that only one or two persons can use it or it will outright be deactived in PvP. It's just too abusive.

jlmurra2

One aspect of the class system is that it provides both benefit, and hindrance due to the limitation it imposes. I find it helps me focus creatively when conceptualizing new characters, yet it is also limiting. The six classes so far have provided me enough flexibility that I have imagined a minimum of three characters per class into The Elder Scrolls Online's version of Anu and Padomay's intercourse.

Of the 2023 GLOBAL REVEAL–UNVEILING THE NEW ARCANIST CLASS article, these two statements concern me the most:

"powerful new abilities and mechanics drawn from Hermaeus Mora’s realm of Oblivion"

"the energy of Apocrypha"

Which means my power as an Arcanist should be dictated by Hermaeus Mora's favor. If I commit apostasy against the sprit (Hermaeus Mora) will my skill lines be reset? I feel I would appreciate that.

Overall, the theme of the Arcanist, based on my understanding from the article, feels far more restrictive than all other classes so far. I don't feel positive about that, it feels less balanced conceptually.

Arnoldthehawk

Would be awesome, just like Necromancer seemed awesome. Yet still unreachable, since no way I will start a new character. I have hundreds of reasons why I don't want to begin a new toon.

Give us class change token and you can milk my wallet dry with it.

Syldras

jlmurra2 wrote: »

Of the 2023 GLOBAL REVEAL–UNVEILING THE NEW ARCANIST CLASS article, these two statements concern me the most:
"powerful new abilities and mechanics drawn from Hermaeus Mora’s realm of Oblivion"
"the energy of Apocrypha"

Sounds like typical marketing speech, to be honest. And they said a few rather strange things during the last few streams (outright mistakes like the city of Necrom being Telvanni). I just hope the lore team knows better.

ajkb78

thejadefalcon wrote: »

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

Khenarthi wrote: »

Will we get more character slots? You know, for those of us already attached to 18 characters?

Yes! We are getting two new slots taking the total to 20!

Why not 21? Three of each class, one for each role, it's so obvious.

Yeah, I mean this seems like an obvious blunder, commercially as well as for QoL. For one thing it maintains "one of each class at each armour weight", and for another thing it means that for those who would want the extra character, zos gets more crown store sales for character slots. Hopefully this truly is just a dumbo slip-up and gets fixed.

ajkb78

Wolf_Eye wrote: »

acastanza_ESO wrote: »

Look, I'm as excited for this class as anyone, it looks AWESOME!
But calling it a "feature" was pretty misleading. A feature is something that existing characters can participate in. This isn't.

Also, any chance you can finally give us class change tokens?!
I desperately want my main to be an Arcanist (from what we've seen, it's everything I always wanted out of Sorcerer but didn't get), but the thought of having to start over makes me want to give up.

I don't think the new class is the feature. Near the end, they mentioned a new infinite dungeon system to be released in an update after the Necrom chapter.

That's not the new feature either. That's just something so they have *something* to sell the Q3 DLC as rather than purely QoL updates which would presumably mostly apply throughout the base game.

The new Q4 feature is, as far as I can tell, still entirely under wraps and no hint of what it is came out in the reveal except that it's a major feature. I've speculated elsewhere what I think it might be, there are certainly some obvious candidates, but ZoS gonna ZoS, I could be completely wrong.

mdb800

Syldras wrote: »

mdb800 wrote: »

And in pursuit of that; in the depth and richness of Elder scrolls lore; they missed ( which is understandable) the fact that no paper being read can change reality in nirn except for the elder scrolls themselves. The concept of reading books as a means to cast spells has been visited in all the elder scrolls games I have played and it is very clear; holding books in hand provides zero combat value ( runes do). Keeping the class as is would be like retroactively saying that yokuda didn't sink. The elder scrolls or the only written documents in nirn that can cause magic to happen by reading them. Not to say there aren't any books without knowledge how to gain such power.

But is it the book that changes reality in this case? It's not even one of Hermaeus Mora's Black Books - they emphasized that in the announcement stream - but something like a personal grimoire of the Arkanist. Basically a notebook. I'd assume the magic doesn't come from the book itself, but from the character.

That's right which is why it would be odd for the Tome physically showing up in combat. The time should have no power of it's own; just the knowledge it contains. I mean, imagine the exorcist and reciting bible verses vs opening a Bible and reading it aloud: what would be the difference here? Well... Nothing. Now imagine, instead of exorcising a spawn of Satan, a sword wielding daedra. , Why does the book need to be out if you already know what it says?

Syldras

mdb800 wrote: »

Why does the book need to be out if you already know what it says?

Maybe the Arcanist is a bit scatterbrained and needs a memory aid to cast their spells? Might happen if you're in Apocrypha for too long

Elsonso

ajkb78 wrote: »

thejadefalcon wrote: »

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

Khenarthi wrote: »

Will we get more character slots? You know, for those of us already attached to 18 characters?

Yes! We are getting two new slots taking the total to 20!

Why not 21? Three of each class, one for each role, it's so obvious.

Yeah, I mean this seems like an obvious blunder, commercially as well as for QoL. For one thing it maintains "one of each class at each armour weight", and for another thing it means that for those who would want the extra character, zos gets more crown store sales for character slots. Hopefully this truly is just a dumbo slip-up and gets fixed.

No, I doubt that it is a slip up. It is intentional and deliberate.

You have to think in terms of scale. ESO has at least 21 million accounts, which means that the game needs to be able to scale up, across the 6 megaservers, to around 500 million characters. Even if an account does not own all 20 character slots, and even if the account does not use all 20 character slots, the database is probably storing a table with 20 columns, one for each possible character slot, for each account.

My theory is that between cold storage and AwA, ZOS feels the pressure is off the database enough to allow a new class with new character slots. Prudence suggests they not go wild, and one free and one paid seems reasonable. I will lay even odds that there was a debate about whether it should have just been one slot. I will also suggest the idea that the class was delayed until now simply because the prospect of not being able to add any slots was very real.

mdb800

Syldras wrote: »

mdb800 wrote: »

Why does the book need to be out if you already know what it says?

Maybe the Arcanist is a bit scatterbrained and needs a memory aid to cast their spells? Might happen if you're in Apocrypha for too long

I just don't buy it. I mean, you ( playing devils advocate) bring up the best scenarios where it seems appropriate and no matter what it just doesn't seem to fit. Maybe we are just not enthusiastic enough but my money is on a lore breach and people aren't picking up on it but notice something is off. I believe this it and I think if devs keep what they got but change the animations to not include the book showing up in battle, I think it will go a long way and people would be happy.

colossalvoids

ajkb78 wrote: »

Wolf_Eye wrote: »

acastanza_ESO wrote: »

Look, I'm as excited for this class as anyone, it looks AWESOME!
But calling it a "feature" was pretty misleading. A feature is something that existing characters can participate in. This isn't.

Also, any chance you can finally give us class change tokens?!
I desperately want my main to be an Arcanist (from what we've seen, it's everything I always wanted out of Sorcerer but didn't get), but the thought of having to start over makes me want to give up.

I don't think the new class is the feature. Near the end, they mentioned a new infinite dungeon system to be released in an update after the Necrom chapter.

That's not the new feature either. That's just something so they have *something* to sell the Q3 DLC as rather than purely QoL updates which would presumably mostly apply throughout the base game.

The new Q4 feature is, as far as I can tell, still entirely under wraps and no hint of what it is came out in the reveal except that it's a major feature. I've speculated elsewhere what I think it might be, there are certainly some obvious candidates, but ZoS gonna ZoS, I could be completely wrong.

Same as q2 feature will be the new class q4 is a new dungeon system that we've been told of, leaving q3 with just bug fixes and qol stuff while only q1 having classical dungeons same as always.

Syldras

mdb800 wrote: »

I just don't buy it. I mean, you ( playing devils advocate) bring up the best scenarios where it seems appropriate and no matter what it just doesn't seem to fit. Maybe we are just not enthusiastic enough but my money is on a lore breach and people aren't picking up on it but notice something is off

Honestly? I don't trust them either. There have been at least 2 lore mistakes last year and from the things shown in the Q1 reveal stream and the stuff that's on PTS now, there are also a few details that make me really wary. But maybe they read these threads (they emphasize quite often at the moment that they're asking for player feedback) and get an idea how they can find a lore explanation that makes sense. It's easier to write an explanation then to change all animations they've already created.

Elsonso

Syldras wrote: »

mdb800 wrote: »

I just don't buy it. I mean, you ( playing devils advocate) bring up the best scenarios where it seems appropriate and no matter what it just doesn't seem to fit. Maybe we are just not enthusiastic enough but my money is on a lore breach and people aren't picking up on it but notice something is off

Honestly? I don't trust them either. There have been at least 2 lore mistakes last year and from the things shown in the Q1 reveal stream and the stuff that's on PTS now, there are also a few details that make me really wary. But maybe they read these threads (they emphasize quite often at the moment that they're asking for player feedback) and get an idea how they can find a lore explanation that makes sense. It's easier to write an explanation then to change all animations they've already created.

Addressing a lore mistake, omission, or complication? Honestly, I expect that they will just send it and hit the pub. It is way easier and cheaper to ignore it than to fix something that only a few people will notice.

Syldras

Elsonso wrote: »

Addressing a lore mistake, omission, or complication? Honestly, I expect that they will just send it and hit the pub. It is way easier and cheaper to ignore it than to fix something that only a few people will notice.

You might be right. But I think it's still worth a try at least.

tohopka_eso

Curious, maybe wrong but wasn't there a post a while ago that said they can update and/or change lore as needed?
Just curious here.

Jammy420

mdb800 wrote: »

Syldras wrote: »

mdb800 wrote: »

Why does the book need to be out if you already know what it says?

Maybe the Arcanist is a bit scatterbrained and needs a memory aid to cast their spells? Might happen if you're in Apocrypha for too long

I just don't buy it. I mean, you ( playing devils advocate) bring up the best scenarios where it seems appropriate and no matter what it just doesn't seem to fit. Maybe we are just not enthusiastic enough but my money is on a lore breach and people aren't picking up on it but notice something is off. I believe this it and I think if devs keep what they got but change the animations to not include the book showing up in battle, I think it will go a long way and people would be happy.

The ogma infinium doesnt disappear when you read from it, it could be something along those lines.

Elvenheart

ajkb78 wrote: »

Wolf_Eye wrote: »

acastanza_ESO wrote: »

Look, I'm as excited for this class as anyone, it looks AWESOME!
But calling it a "feature" was pretty misleading. A feature is something that existing characters can participate in. This isn't.

Also, any chance you can finally give us class change tokens?!
I desperately want my main to be an Arcanist (from what we've seen, it's everything I always wanted out of Sorcerer but didn't get), but the thought of having to start over makes me want to give up.

I don't think the new class is the feature. Near the end, they mentioned a new infinite dungeon system to be released in an update after the Necrom chapter.

That's not the new feature either. That's just something so they have *something* to sell the Q3 DLC as rather than purely QoL updates which would presumably mostly apply throughout the base game.

The new Q4 feature is, as far as I can tell, still entirely under wraps and no hint of what it is came out in the reveal except that it's a major feature. I've speculated elsewhere what I think it might be, there are certainly some obvious candidates, but ZoS gonna ZoS, I could be completely wrong.

I might be totally wrong too, but it seems in other forum posts and in the Global Reveal it was stated that the most requested feature was the new class, and that the new system announced for later in the year was the endless dungeon with a buddy. Maybe @ZOS_Kevin could clarify?

ZOS_Kevin

@Elvenheart You are correct, the most requested feature was a new class. So that is what we were teasing in the letter in December.

The endless dungeon is slated for Q4 content as it is still in development. We'll have more to show later in the year, sometime post-Necrom release. Q3 is set to be QoL focused.

Seraphayel

Most requested and easiest to implement while still being able to heavily monetize it

That’s how it should be paraphrased if we’re honest.

Most requested would definitely be either new skill lines, new weapons or Spellcrafting. There’s nowhere the demand for a new class as there was for stuff that affects all players and builds equally. A new class is just the easiest way as it’s still a flashy feature, but not as complex to implement as something like Spellcrafting.

ajkb78

colossalvoids wrote: »

ajkb78 wrote: »

Wolf_Eye wrote: »

acastanza_ESO wrote: »

Look, I'm as excited for this class as anyone, it looks AWESOME!
But calling it a "feature" was pretty misleading. A feature is something that existing characters can participate in. This isn't.

Also, any chance you can finally give us class change tokens?!
I desperately want my main to be an Arcanist (from what we've seen, it's everything I always wanted out of Sorcerer but didn't get), but the thought of having to start over makes me want to give up.

I don't think the new class is the feature. Near the end, they mentioned a new infinite dungeon system to be released in an update after the Necrom chapter.

That's not the new feature either. That's just something so they have *something* to sell the Q3 DLC as rather than purely QoL updates which would presumably mostly apply throughout the base game.

The new Q4 feature is, as far as I can tell, still entirely under wraps and no hint of what it is came out in the reveal except that it's a major feature. I've speculated elsewhere what I think it might be, there are certainly some obvious candidates, but ZoS gonna ZoS, I could be completely wrong.

Same as q2 feature will be the new class q4 is a new dungeon system that we've been told of, leaving q3 with just bug fixes and qol stuff while only q1 having classical dungeons same as always.

Watch the stream again. The endless dungeon is q3, to provide *something* interesting alongside a whole update that would otherwise be bugfixes and QOL.

ajkb78

Oops, I stand corrected.