2022: ESO's Worst Year, A Retrospective

Drammanoth

BlakMarket wrote: »

I think this video @Nefas released today - really sums this thread up and the direction of the game. You can clearly see it's a video he did not enjoy making.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Zv5f40sCM0

True, it can be heard that he does not like it, and it hurts.

Jaraal

ProudMary wrote: »

DemonicGoat wrote: »

Cadbury wrote: »

Side note: The AwA change seems to show that the devs are perfectly willing to dynamically change almost ever aspect of the game on a moment's notice. Not just endgame or PvP.

I think It needs to be said that the "devs" arent always the same people, people leave for better jobs or whatever and someone new is brought in.

Anyone who looked at what ESO was hiring for devs over the past 2 years? By the amount of positions opened alone at one point I had a bad feeling about how things were going to go moving forward,.. We also have to consider Rich took over for Matt in 2019 or so.. when that new IP got underway(matt claims 50 designers,200 devs),.. I dont think its a big stretch of the imagination to guess many capable,veteran devs went to that new project while ESO gets maintained by a new crop of hires or whoever is available.

That would also line up with the quantity of content and quality of updates slipping after Summerset.

Anyhow. Food for thought.

This would explain a lot if accurate.

Except the people in charge are the same.

New hires can only do what they are directed to do.

SilverBride

Being a streamer doesn't make someone's opinion any more valid than anyone else's.

And there is no "Us vs Them". Someone isn't an enemy because they don't like the same things we do. What causes conflict is when one side sees anyone disagreeing with their view as being against them when in actuality they just have different personal preferences.

Some players aren't happy with the game this year but just as many or more are and 2022 was not ESO's worst year for them.

DemonicGoat

SilverBride wrote: »

Being a streamer doesn't make someone's opinion any more valid than anyone else's.

And there is no "Us vs Them". Someone isn't an enemy because they don't like the same things we do. What causes conflict is when one side sees anyone disagreeing with their view as being against them when in actuality they just have different personal preferences.

Some players aren't happy with the game this year but just as many or more are and 2022 was not ESO's worst year for them.

Just as many if not more? did you even watch the video? Nefas is more than just a streamer. His raid group was teaching and bringing new players into vet content.

That raid group was decimated overnight by u35.. You keep saying there is no proof of a decline but if you watched the video you'd see he has done his homework and all the things that have lit up the forum for the last 3 months are real issues.

YandereGirlfriend

SilverBride wrote: »

Being a streamer doesn't make someone's opinion any more valid than anyone else's.

This is, of course, true.

However, content creators DO provide important insights into the health of the game because they are, by and large, more closely attuned to the popularity of their games than the average player.

Why is this? Because content creators want people to watch what they create. This is obvious. If a game's popularity is declining then there are fewer people wishing to consume content made about it, which directly reduces the views of content creators attached that are to it. So content creators want to be associated with popular games.

After Fengrush left the game two years ago, Nefas became the largest content creator for ESO (though there are others around his level). Unfortunately, every "name brand" content creator (e.g. Nefas, Deltia, skinnycheeks, matygon, isthereno1else, etc.) that I am aware of that used to be ESO-exclusive is now branching out and covering other games/MMOs precisely because ESO no longer has the viewership clout that it used to have. One glance at the Twitch Charts easily confirms this.

In other words, it is hard to discount the actions (not just words!) of the ESO content creator community. They are driven by market forces (e.g. the viewership economy) and those forces are telling them to play something other than ESO. That is not good news for anyone, content creator or humble player alike.

SilverBride

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Being a streamer doesn't make someone's opinion any more valid than anyone else's.

This is, of course, true.

However, content creators DO provide important insights into the health of the game because they are, by and large, more closely attuned to the popularity of their games than the average player.

Someone who streams about veteran engame trials is going to have a very different view of the game than the average player does. Their view is biased to their preferred playstyle and does not lend any insight into what the game is like for the rest of the playerbase.

Cazador

Personally I don't really pay attention to what a streamer has to say about the game. As Silverbride said they will have their own biases and I'm sure there are plenty of other streamers who will not agree.

The forums frankly just parrot the opinions of specific content creators most of the time.

Parasaurolophus

Also, I want to remind you of one fact about which for some reason everyone is silent. More precisely, for the whole year we did not have a single house that we can buy for gold. This, to be honest, seemed very strange to me, since housing seems to be a strategic direction for this game, which is more and more trying to be casual.

DemonicGoat

Jaraal wrote: »

ProudMary wrote: »

DemonicGoat wrote: »

Cadbury wrote: »

Side note: The AwA change seems to show that the devs are perfectly willing to dynamically change almost ever aspect of the game on a moment's notice. Not just endgame or PvP.

I think It needs to be said that the "devs" arent always the same people, people leave for better jobs or whatever and someone new is brought in.

Anyone who looked at what ESO was hiring for devs over the past 2 years? By the amount of positions opened alone at one point I had a bad feeling about how things were going to go moving forward,.. We also have to consider Rich took over for Matt in 2019 or so.. when that new IP got underway(matt claims 50 designers,200 devs),.. I dont think its a big stretch of the imagination to guess many capable,veteran devs went to that new project while ESO gets maintained by a new crop of hires or whoever is available.

That would also line up with the quantity of content and quality of updates slipping after Summerset.

Anyhow. Food for thought.

This would explain a lot if accurate.

Except the people in charge are the same.

New hires can only do what they are directed to do.

Rich was not the Creative Director until 2014.. He is arguably one of the people in charge and its during his tenure that ESO has become what it is today for better or for worse. So, I dont think we can say the people in charge were the same.

edit: Corrected the date Rich took over as CD. My apologies.

karthrag_inak

Khajiit still puts over 30 hours a week in ESO, but yes, this one has had a bit of a hard time getting into the story as much with High Isle/Galen. Still, to say this is the worst year is woefully ignorant of the disaster that was 2014.

The only lesson that needs to be learned by devs, in this one's opinion, is that the fundamental combat changes NEED TO STOP. It is known that there is a team for combat, and it is also known that they need to exist for a reason, but having them completely retool combat every 6 months is the most frustrating thing about this game, and if there's anything that will make khajiit quit despite 12,875 hours in game is if this crap-fest disguised as "combat improvements" continues. Let the combat team "reinvent itself" as engine devs, or bug hunters, or even coffee fetchers, khajiit does not care.

But this one doubts his 17 khajiit and 1 argonian (with fluffy delusions) can stand another U35.

Elsonso

Cazador wrote: »

The forums frankly just parrot the opinions of specific content creators most of the time.

Sometimes, the streamers parrot the opinions of the forum.

DemonicGoat wrote: »

Rich was not the Creative Director until 2019.. He is arguably one of the people in charge and its during his tenure that ESO has become what it is today for better or for worse. So, I dont think we can say the people in charge were the same.

I think that Lambert took over officially in June 2015, after console launch. Not sure how many of the decisions were made by him prior to that. Sage left on good terms, reportedly, so there was a transition of unspecified length. He didn't just not come in one day.

BlakMarket

SilverBride wrote: »

Being a streamer doesn't make someone's opinion any more valid than anyone else's.

And there is no "Us vs Them". Someone isn't an enemy because they don't like the same things we do. What causes conflict is when one side sees anyone disagreeing with their view as being against them when in actuality they just have different personal preferences.

Some players aren't happy with the game this year but just as many or more are and 2022 was not ESO's worst year for them.

Whenever I read comments like this, it really saddens me how short sighted it is - when content creators have hundreds/thousands of members of our community in their chat, Youtube comments etc sharing their experiences/opinions/feedback regarding the game from all areas of the game.

All the ESO content creators I follow, take this feedback into account before sharing their opinion which in a sense turns into a louder voice of the community for the greater good of everyone.

CP5

I find it amusing how some instantly wrote off Nefas's video under the bias that streamers aren't likely to have a relatable perspective on the game, as he directly mentions that kind of bias early in the video. It was also content creators like that who both help less experienced players understand more major changes by going over them and also gave ZOS a heads-up by outlining how things like the U35 changes would negatively impact the game. Content creators are a mirror for the game as a whole, they exist where there is a demand and make content the community is interested in, and if they're leaving because there's less interest in interacting with ESO outside the game and if their most popular videos are those about the game's issues, those are both really bad.

SaffronCitrusflower

SilverBride wrote: »

Being a streamer doesn't make someone's opinion any more valid than anyone else's.

And there is no "Us vs Them". Someone isn't an enemy because they don't like the same things we do. What causes conflict is when one side sees anyone disagreeing with their view as being against them when in actuality they just have different personal preferences.

Some players aren't happy with the game this year but just as many or more are and 2022 was not ESO's worst year for them.

It does in the case of this streamer, especially if we're talking about Nefas and others of his caliber, like Deltia and a handful of others. These are the people who know the most about the game and should be listened to and given respect. These are the players teaching others how to conquer the most difficult content in the game and helping others more than any other sub group in the game.

These players that go so far out of their way to help other players deserve respect and our thanks. They've earned it.

SilverBride

SaffronCitrusflower wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Being a streamer doesn't make someone's opinion any more valid than anyone else's.

And there is no "Us vs Them". Someone isn't an enemy because they don't like the same things we do. What causes conflict is when one side sees anyone disagreeing with their view as being against them when in actuality they just have different personal preferences.

Some players aren't happy with the game this year but just as many or more are and 2022 was not ESO's worst year for them.

It does in the case of this streamer, especially if we're talking about Nefas and others of his caliber, like Deltia and a handful of others. These are the people who know the most about the game and should be listened to and given respect. These are the players teaching others how to conquer the most difficult content in the game and helping others more than any other sub group in the game.

These players that go so far out of their way to help other players deserve respect and our thanks. They've earned it.

I never said that streamers aren't knowledgeable about the game, but I will make up my own mind as to whether I enjoy it or not. Someone whose main focus is veteran raids is not going to be in touch with the casual player base and what makes them happy.

Jaraal

DemonicGoat wrote: »

Jaraal wrote: »

ProudMary wrote: »

DemonicGoat wrote: »

Cadbury wrote: »

Side note: The AwA change seems to show that the devs are perfectly willing to dynamically change almost ever aspect of the game on a moment's notice. Not just endgame or PvP.

I think It needs to be said that the "devs" arent always the same people, people leave for better jobs or whatever and someone new is brought in.

Anyone who looked at what ESO was hiring for devs over the past 2 years? By the amount of positions opened alone at one point I had a bad feeling about how things were going to go moving forward,.. We also have to consider Rich took over for Matt in 2019 or so.. when that new IP got underway(matt claims 50 designers,200 devs),.. I dont think its a big stretch of the imagination to guess many capable,veteran devs went to that new project while ESO gets maintained by a new crop of hires or whoever is available.

That would also line up with the quantity of content and quality of updates slipping after Summerset.

Anyhow. Food for thought.

This would explain a lot if accurate.

Except the people in charge are the same.

New hires can only do what they are directed to do.

Rich was not the Creative Director until 2019.. He is arguably one of the people in charge and its during his tenure that ESO has become what it is today for better or for worse. So, I dont think we can say the people in charge were the same.

Rich Lambert has been the Creative Director of ESO since June of 2014.

https://www.linkedin.com/in/richlambert

blktauna

SilverBride wrote: »

Someone whose main focus is veteran raids is not going to be in touch with the casual player base and what makes them happy.

Then watch the smaller streamers who do exactly that. Fishing streams, housing streams, guild trader discussions.... Even those channels are fielding dissatisfaction with the changes and the surprising drop in DPS that folks not on the forums or generally tuned in to the minutae of ESO life got surprised by. This ia a huge new thing to see on those channels. When huge supporters of ESO like Deltia and Nefas and Matygon start speaking about issues, those issues have grown into something to worry about.

SilverBride

blktauna wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Someone whose main focus is veteran raids is not going to be in touch with the casual player base and what makes them happy.

Then watch the smaller streamers who do exactly that. Fishing streams, housing streams, guild trader discussions.... Even those channels are fielding dissatisfaction with the changes and the surprising drop in DPS that folks not on the forums or generally tuned in to the minutae of ESO life got surprised by. This ia a huge new thing to see on those channels. When huge supporters of ESO like Deltia and Nefas and Matygon start speaking about issues, those issues have grown into something to worry about.

I have zero interest in watching someone else play nor do I need to be told whether or not I should be satisfied with the state of the game. I will decide that for myself based on my experiences.

blktauna

Awesome for you then, but when the trend starts showing where it never was before, there's obviously something afoot.

SilverBride

I haven't seen proof of any negative trend.

Roztlin45

Anyone that actively played everyday can spot that population number are down .Is the sky falling,no. I have seen this decline before . remember post like I would rather be elsweyr. What is going on is the game lacks.quality and customer service. Those that are apologetic for current state are enabling further down trend.
It is not whiney to complain if you order a hamburger and all you get is a bun with no meat in it.
One thing eso could do is release a free feature for the one we did not receive this year. Move the card game to moble device, link to your account,check mail in game or inventory. But not in game! Like it or love it, people running high end pc on 3090 cards playing a app store card game within a game. I would never play it and waste powe, use up hardware as long as my phone works.
2023 needs to be a home run to put eso back on top. Still a great game ,just needs a course correction asap.

Starpulsechic

I think the main point being shared is that there is a concern of the rate of content creators moving on from making ESO content and veteran players leaving due to the reasons shared by the OP. That may not be of particular concern of everyone because your gaming experience and journey with ESO may not be impacted by what the OP shared. However thats not to say that your game experience wont change over time depending on what content you are trying to do in game. If those in game activities results in you needing to refer to content created by streamers like Nefas, Alcast, Deltia or you need to ask for assistance or require the knowledge of other veteran players but there is a lack of that available to you then your experience whether that’s in PVE or PVP will be impacted. It could be later that the concerns raised by the OP will resonate with you as your journey with ESO changes.

Even for those that enjoyed 2022, there should be a concern for the volumes of people who didn’t enjoy it and the consistency of that feedback being echo chambered across multiple social media platforms.

ESO is played in a lot of different ways however rolling out chapters and updates where they know it will hinder a large groups of players and their right to experience content of the game goes against ZOS's own values of what they preach being that the game should be accessible to everyone.

For me personally I dont like what update 35 and 36 brought to the game and then it caused a huge exit from the community area of the game of which I was involved within. It is frustrating that there was no communication which they promised being a Q&A that they said they would do over 4months ago.

My own view is there there is a high volume of players posting countless amount of feedback, ideas, issues (whether that be constructive or not) across multiple platforms (forums, reddit, twitter, youtube) with very limited response from ZOS in terms of a conversation. ZOS go on twitch live and say "we hear you", but largely the community doesn't just only want to be heard they want a method of which they can converse with ZOS via system that enables both the community and ZOS to work together to improve the state of the game.

ZOS could literally adapt their 'Submit A Ticket' to manage Feedback, Requests, Bugs, ect assign a community manager, and a tech dev working. This can be used in game too and it can tie into community managers or customer support raising a forum post with the ticket number in the thread title. That way if someone else logs a ticket for that subject matter they then get re-directed to that ticket number, directory listing, forum post about the subject matter. If the internal stakeholder person or team is assigned to the ticket, the forum post is linked in their workflow so they can keep up to date with the collated feedback which could impact how they approach fixing issues or facilitating ideas. It would be pretty difficult for the community managers to collate various posts, feedback from people across these forums and other platforms to then relay it back to internal teams at ZOS.

This would really in my view be a step in the direction of creating some cohesion between the community and ZOS and reduce alot of frustrations. I've suggested this before with no acknowledgement.

There are alot of people that arent playing the game atm that still take the time to post feedback on various platforms, and I think this demonstrates a large amount of passionate/love for ESO which gets overshadowed by frustrations of issues/feedback mentioned within this thread.

DemonicGoat

Jaraal wrote: »

DemonicGoat wrote: »

Jaraal wrote: »

ProudMary wrote: »

DemonicGoat wrote: »

Cadbury wrote: »

Side note: The AwA change seems to show that the devs are perfectly willing to dynamically change almost ever aspect of the game on a moment's notice. Not just endgame or PvP.

I think It needs to be said that the "devs" arent always the same people, people leave for better jobs or whatever and someone new is brought in.

Anyone who looked at what ESO was hiring for devs over the past 2 years? By the amount of positions opened alone at one point I had a bad feeling about how things were going to go moving forward,.. We also have to consider Rich took over for Matt in 2019 or so.. when that new IP got underway(matt claims 50 designers,200 devs),.. I dont think its a big stretch of the imagination to guess many capable,veteran devs went to that new project while ESO gets maintained by a new crop of hires or whoever is available.

That would also line up with the quantity of content and quality of updates slipping after Summerset.

Anyhow. Food for thought.

This would explain a lot if accurate.

Except the people in charge are the same.

New hires can only do what they are directed to do.

Rich was not the Creative Director until 2019.. He is arguably one of the people in charge and its during his tenure that ESO has become what it is today for better or for worse. So, I dont think we can say the people in charge were the same.

Rich Lambert has been the Creative Director of ESO since June of 2014.

https://www.linkedin.com/in/richlambert

Quite right, I knew he was lead content designer first and thought the handover was later than that. Ill edit corrections into my post.

DemonicGoat

SilverBride wrote: »

I haven't seen proof of any negative trend.

You cant see it if you keep looking the other way.

Pepegrillos

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Being a streamer doesn't make someone's opinion any more valid than anyone else's.

After Fengrush left the game two years ago, Nefas became the largest content creator for ESO (though there are others around his level). Unfortunately, every "name brand" content creator (e.g. Nefas, Deltia, skinnycheeks, matygon, isthereno1else, etc.) that I am aware of that used to be ESO-exclusive is now branching out and covering other games/MMOs precisely because ESO no longer has the viewership clout that it used to have. One glance at the Twitch Charts easily confirms this.

It seems pretty obvious that the overall viewership for ESO on twitch has gone down. I don't have access to youtube details, but I'll take Nefas' word on this. However, I think there are a few interesting facts about ESO's twitch directory that explain why it has never had any 'viewership clout.'

If you look at the charts, the viewership has always been pretty abysmal outside of paid Chapter launch campaigns or cinematic trailer reveals. Out of all the 'big' MMOs, viewership on twitch is probably the worst (and these days, it might be even worse than GW2, which says a lot).

Now, speculating on the details of the charts. The rising tides you see around 2018 have more to do, I think, with a new practice ESO streamers started to adopt. By that time Al***t and F**g***h started embedding their streams in a website, which artificially boosts viewership with no one actually watching. Multiple other streamers followed. You can see this by checking every single one of their 'guide' and data websites. They all have someone's stream embedded somewhere. By 2020 you had new 'big' embedded streamers in the directory. I think L***yg***t was there already. And by 2021, you had the return of D**l***, which streamed simultaneously, using the same strategy, with F and L, all embedded.

This has now become a somewhat common practice on most small MMORPG directories. It's probably the only way of making a decent income in directories whose actual viewership numbers are extremely low. But it skews whichever number we have access to, and might give the image of a 'healthy' directory when there actually isn't one. (For a recent example, look at New World's directory, where every single big streamer is embedded).

LesserCircle

SilverBride wrote: »

SaffronCitrusflower wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Being a streamer doesn't make someone's opinion any more valid than anyone else's.

And there is no "Us vs Them". Someone isn't an enemy because they don't like the same things we do. What causes conflict is when one side sees anyone disagreeing with their view as being against them when in actuality they just have different personal preferences.

Some players aren't happy with the game this year but just as many or more are and 2022 was not ESO's worst year for them.

It does in the case of this streamer, especially if we're talking about Nefas and others of his caliber, like Deltia and a handful of others. These are the people who know the most about the game and should be listened to and given respect. These are the players teaching others how to conquer the most difficult content in the game and helping others more than any other sub group in the game.

These players that go so far out of their way to help other players deserve respect and our thanks. They've earned it.

I never said that streamers aren't knowledgeable about the game, but I will make up my own mind as to whether I enjoy it or not. Someone whose main focus is veteran raids is not going to be in touch with the casual player base and what makes them happy.

So a casual player can't play veteran content? What is keeping a casual player from doing that exactly? Maybe we should start using "questers" instead because I'm a casual player and I never identify with your comments.

Katheriah

SilverBride wrote: »

SaffronCitrusflower wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Being a streamer doesn't make someone's opinion any more valid than anyone else's.

And there is no "Us vs Them". Someone isn't an enemy because they don't like the same things we do. What causes conflict is when one side sees anyone disagreeing with their view as being against them when in actuality they just have different personal preferences.

Some players aren't happy with the game this year but just as many or more are and 2022 was not ESO's worst year for them.

It does in the case of this streamer, especially if we're talking about Nefas and others of his caliber, like Deltia and a handful of others. These are the people who know the most about the game and should be listened to and given respect. These are the players teaching others how to conquer the most difficult content in the game and helping others more than any other sub group in the game.

These players that go so far out of their way to help other players deserve respect and our thanks. They've earned it.

I never said that streamers aren't knowledgeable about the game, but I will make up my own mind as to whether I enjoy it or not. Someone whose main focus is veteran raids is not going to be in touch with the casual player base and what makes them happy.

Pretty sure he literally has an ESO podcast and also invited people to talk about housing, roleplaying and Tributes.

Troodon80

LesserCircle wrote: »

So a casual player can't play veteran content? What is keeping a casual player from doing that exactly? Maybe we should start using "questers" instead because I'm a casual player and I never identify with your comments.

As someone who, while also pushing the hardest content in the game, really enjoys questing, listening to dialogue, collecting lorebooks, reading the lore, etc., I dislike this implication that questers cannot also enjoy veteran content.

LesserCircle

Troodon80 wrote: »

LesserCircle wrote: »

So a casual player can't play veteran content? What is keeping a casual player from doing that exactly? Maybe we should start using "questers" instead because I'm a casual player and I never identify with your comments.

As someone who, while also pushing the hardest content in the game, really enjoys questing, listening to dialogue, collecting lorebooks, reading the lore, etc., I dislike this implication that questers cannot also enjoy veteran content.

Yeah, I guess you are right too, probably need a better word then.

Styxius

ESO has made some of it's worse decisions and miscommunication mistakes in 2022. Hybridization for those who do support it, it only gives more options on paper. In practice it funnels the top performance across the board in one direction. High isles launch should not have included the card game that should've been in Q4 and it would've gone over smoother. They needed to release a class this year as the damages they caused devastated theorycrafting and the endgame community. As much as some people don't understand the importance of a healthy endgame community. This game fails to teach its players how to play the game. The game heavily relies upon the endgame to keep the endgame thriving. It doesn't fuel interest or help develope skills through it's unchallenging difficulty with no progression in general combat to reward players. It's got one of the best laid combat systems managed by people who seem to not know how to use it unfortunately.

ESO needs the dev team to straight the course because based on all data that is obtainable ESOs player count continues to tumble since Greymoor. While even new world now out populates ESO including non steam numbers. It is dire and should be a top priority for the devs to correct the combat hybridization and separate pvp from pve. Then while working on that as it's a large task. Focus strictly on performance improvements when you can live in the same state as the server and get over 150 ping with high speed and no issues else where. When the game is so resource intensive it shows there is a skill issue on the team for maximizing input to output. They would do well to learn and observe tricks their competitors use