So whatever happened to that Q&A?

Oakenaxe

FluffyBird wrote: »

Just a personal opinion: when someone uses "we truly believe" that means they have no proper justification for their course of action.
This thread always makes me remember a dev stream for another game, where they had a whole 10-minute video showcasing and explaining rework of a single... uhm... I guess in ESO terms that would be "class". Imagine having a proper dev stream for something as major as U35, with showcasing differences, rotation and DPS changes, devs pretending to be n00bs to demonstrate raising the floor, proving that new version is better... I'd watch that.

Yes! This is exactly the kind of stuff that builds trust in the team. I'd love that, it is certainly better than being ignored, you know...

DemonicGoat

Why they have left this chip on peoples shoulder I'll never understand.

I get that they and others feel they have moved the goalpost now with EOY letter,etc.. but the last official word we have heard here is that a Q&A is being worked on/updated/whatever

If they dont want to do the q&a just say so,then maybe Id have some faith in the latest missive from on high. As it stands though flat out ignoring this just makes Matts letter appear to be nothing more than bull crap,yet another half hearted attempt that misses on several fronts.

Matts letter says a lot of stuff but I dont know if itll bring people back,..

Ive given up hope they will fix templar jabs,but ESO seems to be turning into something new for everyone in the year to come,whether that is good or bad remains to be seen.

ZOS wont be getting my money anytime soon because words are cheap and ofc this thread still left on read.

Another missed opportunity to close a festering wound yet here we are.

karthrag_inak

Question : "Where is Q&A?"

Answer: <crickets> <tumbleweeds> <crickets>


And this -- - --^ concludes the Q&A

FluffyBird

karthrag_inak wrote: »

Question : "Where is Q&A?"

Answer: <crickets> <tumbleweeds> <crickets>


And this -- - --^ concludes the Q&A

And in an other game even tumbleweed can drop some loot!

(I'm sorry, I just couldn't miss such a chance to "anothergame" ESO once more)
(Also, I'm not joking: https://genshin-impact.fandom.com/wiki/Tumbleweed )

Elsonso

DemonicGoat wrote: »

Another missed opportunity to close a festering wound yet here we are.

Exactly. At this point, I think the issue is more about the fact that ZOS ghosted us and less about what they did in U35.

xthrshx

Since they are totally working on this Q&A, where is the best place to submit my questions?

psychotrip

Four_Fingers wrote: »

Alinhbo_Tyaka wrote: »

Four_Fingers wrote: »

They obviously don't have answers, so let them bow out peacefully and hope they strive to do better next time.

This is crux of the problem. ZOS has been allowed to bow out numerous times in the past with the promise to do better in the future. Since they won't make good on those promises on their own it is time for the player base to stop giving them benefit of the doubt and force the issue. One way or the other ZOS needs to come to the realization they are only hurting themselves and the game by ignoring the player base and not addressing their concerns. Hopefully this thread along with other internet media will help them see they are putting the game on a path to mediocrity and fewer loyal players as they leave the game.

No the crux of the problem is they don't have answers that they want to admit to and they won't.

Por que no los dos?
[cue taco meme]

Jaraal

xthrshx wrote: »

Since they are totally working on this Q&A, where is the best place to submit my questions?

I’m not exactly sure, but be sure to submit them before February 30th, as that is the most likely day it will be published.

Wolfkeks

Q&A advent calendar, door Nr. 15:

RMW

Mmh if they don't want to do the Q&A they could also just do a roadmap, kinda share their combat vision

FluffyBird

RMW wrote: »

Mmh if they don't want to do the Q&A they could also just do a roadmap, kinda share their combat vision

While other developer go "we'll release this bit now and leave the rest for polishing until 2023, sorry", ZOS behaves like someone would chomp their heads off if they fail to stick to the announced plans at any point. Therefore, it's unlikely to see a roadmap from the current team.

Elsonso

RMW wrote: »

Mmh if they don't want to do the Q&A they could also just do a roadmap, kinda share their combat vision

This is what I was hoping to see in a "Q&A" and a document to entertain player sentiment probably wouldn't have covered that.

Soraka

Lumenn wrote: »

Soraka wrote: »

SaffronCitrusflower wrote: »

I want an answer as to why mentioning Cyrodiil or PvP gets you automatically banned from any of the live streams. I'm pretty sure Cyrodiil and PvP are parts of the game. Why aren't we allowed to discuss these subjects with the devs?

Is this true? Did it happen in one stream (still not ok) or is it across the board? Not cool!
Something addressing more concerns would be nice if it's not going to be update 35 (which as already stated is probably too long ago to happen). I'm tentatively hopeful from the letter, except for the fact this thread is still ignored.

It's true. You can search even THESE forums much less somewhere else(some of the discussions have been taken down here but some are still up, at least for now) to learn more about it.

I didn't want to believe it, but I do. 😢

mandricus

Wolfkeks

Q&A advent calender, door Nr. 16:

Jaraal

Q&A advent calender, door Nr. 17:

VaranisArano

FluffyBird wrote: »

RMW wrote: »

Mmh if they don't want to do the Q&A they could also just do a roadmap, kinda share their combat vision

While other developer go "we'll release this bit now and leave the rest for polishing until 2023, sorry", ZOS behaves like someone would chomp their heads off if they fail to stick to the announced plans at any point. Therefore, it's unlikely to see a roadmap from the current team.

In their defense, people do complain whenever stuff they talk about fails to materialize. And I'm not just talking about this Q&A.

Look at the resurgence in people asking "Is the big feature spell-crafting?" That was talked about way at the beginning of the game, but there's been people faithfully asking for it ever since. People getting grumpy about stuff getting pushed back is also why ZOS stopped doing those performance roadmaps they used to. People got irritated when ZOS announced that the hardware upgrades were delayed.

So there's reasons why ZOS prefers not to give too many hard details until they are ready to announce whatever they're doing.

TaSheen

We had the "Soon™" meme on the WoW CS forum back when I first started playing in 2006. I've been gone from WoW since 2013, but I'd bet it's still around there.

fizzylu

TaSheen wrote: »

We had the "Soon™" meme on the WoW CS forum back when I first started playing in 2006. I've been gone from WoW since 2013, but I'd bet it's still around there.

It's actually not nearly as common as it used to be haha I've barely seen it used on the WoW forums in years and I honestly think that joke applies more to ESO at this point.... no, I take that back because I can't think of any time in the last few years where Zenimax said they would add a feature/content players actually want (new weapons, for example). Instead we usually just get nonsense nobody even really asked for.

TaSheen

fizzylu wrote: »

TaSheen wrote: »

We had the "Soon™" meme on the WoW CS forum back when I first started playing in 2006. I've been gone from WoW since 2013, but I'd bet it's still around there.

It's actually not nearly as common as it used to be haha I've barely seen it used on the WoW forums in years and I honestly think that joke applies more to ESO at this point.... no, I take that back because I can't think of any time in the last few years where Zenimax said they would add a feature/content players actually want (new weapons, for example). Instead we usually just get nonsense nobody even really asked for.

I haven't touched that game or the forums since a good friend died suddenly and I left a message to her family and friends there - that was about 8 months after I quit the game in 2013.

blktauna

VaranisArano wrote: »

FluffyBird wrote: »

RMW wrote: »

Mmh if they don't want to do the Q&A they could also just do a roadmap, kinda share their combat vision

While other developer go "we'll release this bit now and leave the rest for polishing until 2023, sorry", ZOS behaves like someone would chomp their heads off if they fail to stick to the announced plans at any point. Therefore, it's unlikely to see a roadmap from the current team.

In their defense, people do complain whenever stuff they talk about fails to materialize. And I'm not just talking about this Q&A.

Look at the resurgence in people asking "Is the big feature spell-crafting?" That was talked about way at the beginning of the game, but there's been people faithfully asking for it ever since. People getting grumpy about stuff getting pushed back is also why ZOS stopped doing those performance roadmaps they used to. People got irritated when ZOS announced that the hardware upgrades were delayed.

So there's reasons why ZOS prefers not to give too many hard details until they are ready to announce whatever they're doing.

Perhaps if they involved the playerbase earlier and you know, maybe actually delivered on things they wouldn't have people being grumpy. A simple, no that's not on the agenda now or indeed ever will put stuff to rest. Their silence and failure to deliver is on them, not us for calling them on it and not wishing to accept it.

vsrs_au

VaranisArano wrote: »

FluffyBird wrote: »

RMW wrote: »

Mmh if they don't want to do the Q&A they could also just do a roadmap, kinda share their combat vision

While other developer go "we'll release this bit now and leave the rest for polishing until 2023, sorry", ZOS behaves like someone would chomp their heads off if they fail to stick to the announced plans at any point. Therefore, it's unlikely to see a roadmap from the current team.

In their defense, people do complain whenever stuff they talk about fails to materialize. And I'm not just talking about this Q&A.

Look at the resurgence in people asking "Is the big feature spell-crafting?" That was talked about way at the beginning of the game, but there's been people faithfully asking for it ever since. People getting grumpy about stuff getting pushed back is also why ZOS stopped doing those performance roadmaps they used to. People got irritated when ZOS announced that the hardware upgrades were delayed.

So there's reasons why ZOS prefers not to give too many hard details until they are ready to announce whatever they're doing.

With respect, I think you just swapped cause with effect. It's the lack of communication/roadmaps that have been making players grumpy, not the other way around. That seems to be a common theme in this thread, too, from what I've read. Players have just been asking for more openness and transparency, including admitting to us if something prevents a roadmap feature from being progressed. Personally, I'd appreciate such honesty, and respect them for it.

rpa

I fondly remember when they released option to transfer outside of a house you own. I do not remember they announcing it beforehand but who cares. Actual good features do happen, people just do not make noise about it.
They also started project to improve communication one year but apparently have not yet finished it yet. I'm sure it will be polished to shine when its finally ready. Just have to be patient.

Arunei

blktauna wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

FluffyBird wrote: »

RMW wrote: »

Mmh if they don't want to do the Q&A they could also just do a roadmap, kinda share their combat vision

While other developer go "we'll release this bit now and leave the rest for polishing until 2023, sorry", ZOS behaves like someone would chomp their heads off if they fail to stick to the announced plans at any point. Therefore, it's unlikely to see a roadmap from the current team.

In their defense, people do complain whenever stuff they talk about fails to materialize. And I'm not just talking about this Q&A.

Look at the resurgence in people asking "Is the big feature spell-crafting?" That was talked about way at the beginning of the game, but there's been people faithfully asking for it ever since. People getting grumpy about stuff getting pushed back is also why ZOS stopped doing those performance roadmaps they used to. People got irritated when ZOS announced that the hardware upgrades were delayed.

So there's reasons why ZOS prefers not to give too many hard details until they are ready to announce whatever they're doing.

Perhaps if they involved the playerbase earlier and you know, maybe actually delivered on things they wouldn't have people being grumpy. A simple, no that's not on the agenda now or indeed ever will put stuff to rest. Their silence and failure to deliver is on them, not us for calling them on it and not wishing to accept it.

That's not really the case. I'll criticize ZOS when due, but in this case it's not true that being told no puts stuff to rest. They've said that spellcrafting has been shelved indefinitely, people still ask about it. Rich said in an interview not all that long ago that they have no real plans to make changes to overland difficulty, people still want it and ask about it. They've said they don't plan on doing Class Change tokens but people keep asking about them.

Saying no doesn't put things to rest, people will continue to ask about/for things even if the devs have said no or not in the foreseeable future a hundred times.

xthrshx

The fact that some people make illegitimate complaints doesn’t negate valid criticism. They said they were going to do a Q&A. Not only have they not done the Q&A, their communication about it has been abysmal. It’s actually surpassed pathetic and is just hilarious at this point. The complete lack of communication is a much larger problem than the simple lack of a Q&A.

VaranisArano

vsrs_au wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

FluffyBird wrote: »

RMW wrote: »

Mmh if they don't want to do the Q&A they could also just do a roadmap, kinda share their combat vision

While other developer go "we'll release this bit now and leave the rest for polishing until 2023, sorry", ZOS behaves like someone would chomp their heads off if they fail to stick to the announced plans at any point. Therefore, it's unlikely to see a roadmap from the current team.

In their defense, people do complain whenever stuff they talk about fails to materialize. And I'm not just talking about this Q&A.

Look at the resurgence in people asking "Is the big feature spell-crafting?" That was talked about way at the beginning of the game, but there's been people faithfully asking for it ever since. People getting grumpy about stuff getting pushed back is also why ZOS stopped doing those performance roadmaps they used to. People got irritated when ZOS announced that the hardware upgrades were delayed.

So there's reasons why ZOS prefers not to give too many hard details until they are ready to announce whatever they're doing.

With respect, I think you just swapped cause with effect. It's the lack of communication/roadmaps that have been making players grumpy, not the other way around. That seems to be a common theme in this thread, too, from what I've read. Players have just been asking for more openness and transparency, including admitting to us if something prevents a roadmap feature from being progressed. Personally, I'd appreciate such honesty, and respect them for it.

With respect to the lovely posters here, we're all self-selecting as players who want answers by our participation in this thread. We're not necessarily representative of all players. There's players for whom regular, but lackluster updates are more frustrating, and I think this example will go to show that:

ZOS did do performance roadmaps back in 2019-2020.
https://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en-us/news/post/56681
You can see the final update talked about wanting a new method to share performance updates. This was the follow-up starting June 2020: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/534793/eso-game-performance-work-communication/p1

(Now, here I'm going to confess to a bit of pandemic brain. I don't remember if we ever got those quarterly followups. I know we had a bunch of communication about PVP testing going on in the aftermath, followed by 9 months of silence before ZOS announced the server architecture at the start of 2022...and then something like 10-11 months before we got another update on that at the end of 2022. I know we've had periodic, but not regular updates on the status of the hardware upgrades. From my perspective, there's been a lot of "Silence, because there's nothing new to report" going on. Beyond that, I'm going to plead forgetfulness if I've missed something there. Sorry.)

With that in mind, let's see what Gina had to say about why they stopped doing the performance plan:
In her January 2022 Twitter thread about communication, someone mentioned they missed the performance plan. Gina talked about why they stopped doing regular updates.

https://twitter.com/GinaLBruno/status/1475986736354369540?s=20

Now, as I stated at the time, I disagree with her take. Like you, I appreciated the transparency and respected their honesty when they weren't hitting the mark. But you and I are not all players. Regular, but lackluster updates are going to disappoint some players and evidently disappointed enough players that they felt the need to shift their communication strategy. For a glimpse, here's the ESO Forum thread for the Performance Plan, where you can see both encouraging comments and comments from frustrated players as the performance plan rolled out: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/487396/official-discussion-thread-for-esos-performance-improvements-plan/p1

(As a second example, consider that in this very thread, we've discussed how ZOS did give us unprecedented communication regarding the U35 changes during PTS, and yet some players here and elsewhere were extremely dissatisfied about that communication because they didn't get the answers they wanted, even to the point of saying that ZOS wasn't communicating.)

So since regular, lackluster updates are going to frustrate some players and "Silence until ZOS is ready to speak" is going to frustrate other players, its all very "damned if you do, damned if you don't."

The communication professionals at ZOS seem to have chosen which flavor of damnation they prefer.

I'd like more roadmaps. I'd like more regular updates, even if they are lackluster. But I am aware that ZOS has already tried that and stopped doing it for reasons that were presumably convincing to them. So if we want them to try Roadmap 2 Electric Boogaloo, its good to keep that in mind.

VaranisArano

Jaraal wrote: »

xthrshx wrote: »

Since they are totally working on this Q&A, where is the best place to submit my questions?

I’m not exactly sure, but be sure to submit them before February 30th, as that is the most likely day it will be published.

I missed the joke the first time I read this. Kudos to you!

Elsonso

VaranisArano wrote: »

With that in mind, let's see what Gina had to say about why they stopped doing the performance plan:
In her January 2022 Twitter thread about communication, someone mentioned they missed the performance plan. Gina talked about why they stopped doing regular updates.

https://twitter.com/GinaLBruno/status/1475986736354369540?s=20

Now, as I stated at the time, I disagree with her take. Like you, I appreciated the transparency and respected their honesty when they weren't hitting the mark. But you and I are not all players. Regular, but lackluster updates are going to disappoint some players and evidently disappointed enough players that they felt the need to shift their communication strategy.

I think that one problem that ZOS has is that when their communication misses the mark, they shut down. This probably explains why they start and stop so often.

I am one of the people who think that both U35 and AwA communication missed the mark, but for some slightly different reasons. AwA missed the mark because they left too much to "player testable". I question whether ZOS thinks this is a problem, based on my own interactions with them. It is a problem because players cannot tell the difference between working as intended and something that is not. Fixes subsequent to AwA have identified that there were bugs. ZOS is no stranger to bugs in released content, so should we really be using released content to determine what the game is supposed to do?

The problem with U35 was that they said a lot of things, but player testing revealed a conceptual gap between what they said and what they did. Clearly, the language they used to describe what they were doing suited them, but it was their language, obviously built from them talking about it for months. Part of the reason I wanted more information was to clear up language issues where they use some word that is not commonly understood. They tend to use internal lingo when talking about things. As I recall "accessibility" was one of them. There were others. People immediately applied their own definitions, and clearly, not the same as the one ZOS was using. ZOS should have stopped to explain what they were doing better than they did. Q and A. All they had to do was sift through the forum and find things that people didn't understand about what was in U35 (questions) and publish something about it (answers).

They were similarly dismissive about details in both AwA and U35. They did this "drive by" thing where they just dropped a sound bite with nothing to explain it. In AwA, this happened at the reveal where they just tossed AwA out there like everyone knew what that was going to be and what they were doing. In U35 they just tossed out that they were reducing dungeon boss hit points, but not which bosses or by how much. We found out in a dev Tweet some additional details, but they never did expand on that. Details were left up to Player Testable, but then, how do we know if ZOS got it right when we test it? Some player has to think that it is wrong, then bring it to their attention, and maybe (maybe) someone at ZOS will say whether it is intended or not.

I probably care too much about this subject.

Faulgor

vsrs_au wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

FluffyBird wrote: »

RMW wrote: »

Mmh if they don't want to do the Q&A they could also just do a roadmap, kinda share their combat vision

While other developer go "we'll release this bit now and leave the rest for polishing until 2023, sorry", ZOS behaves like someone would chomp their heads off if they fail to stick to the announced plans at any point. Therefore, it's unlikely to see a roadmap from the current team.

In their defense, people do complain whenever stuff they talk about fails to materialize. And I'm not just talking about this Q&A.

Look at the resurgence in people asking "Is the big feature spell-crafting?" That was talked about way at the beginning of the game, but there's been people faithfully asking for it ever since. People getting grumpy about stuff getting pushed back is also why ZOS stopped doing those performance roadmaps they used to. People got irritated when ZOS announced that the hardware upgrades were delayed.

So there's reasons why ZOS prefers not to give too many hard details until they are ready to announce whatever they're doing.

With respect, I think you just swapped cause with effect. It's the lack of communication/roadmaps that have been making players grumpy, not the other way around. That seems to be a common theme in this thread, too, from what I've read. Players have just been asking for more openness and transparency, including admitting to us if something prevents a roadmap feature from being progressed. Personally, I'd appreciate such honesty, and respect them for it.

Honestly I'm a bit annoyed when they ask us what kind of communication we want.

Aren't they the communication professionals here? Is this the first time a giant development studio is confronted with communicating with their player base, and we have to work together to figure out a workable strategy in this undiscovered country? Or are there litereally hundreds of examples past and present, that could serve as positive models how to tackle this?

If they really struggle to understand this communication thing, maybe their first port of call should be industry leaders that repeateadly rake in awards for their community support and ongoing service. Not some disgruntled social media dweller that is bound to get them in an awful mood.

VaranisArano

Elsonso wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

With that in mind, let's see what Gina had to say about why they stopped doing the performance plan:
In her January 2022 Twitter thread about communication, someone mentioned they missed the performance plan. Gina talked about why they stopped doing regular updates.

https://twitter.com/GinaLBruno/status/1475986736354369540?s=20

Now, as I stated at the time, I disagree with her take. Like you, I appreciated the transparency and respected their honesty when they weren't hitting the mark. But you and I are not all players. Regular, but lackluster updates are going to disappoint some players and evidently disappointed enough players that they felt the need to shift their communication strategy.

I think that one problem that ZOS has is that when their communication misses the mark, they shut down. This probably explains why they start and stop so often.

I am one of the people who think that both U35 and AwA communication missed the mark, but for some slightly different reasons. AwA missed the mark because they left too much to "player testable". I question whether ZOS thinks this is a problem, based on my own interactions with them. It is a problem because players cannot tell the difference between working as intended and something that is not. Fixes subsequent to AwA have identified that there were bugs. ZOS is no stranger to bugs in released content, so should we really be using released content to determine what the game is supposed to do?

The problem with U35 was that they said a lot of things, but player testing revealed a conceptual gap between what they said and what they did. Clearly, the language they used to describe what they were doing suited them, but it was their language, obviously built from them talking about it for months. Part of the reason I wanted more information was to clear up language issues where they use some word that is not commonly understood. They tend to use internal lingo when talking about things. As I recall "accessibility" was one of them. There were others. People immediately applied their own definitions, and clearly, not the same as the one ZOS was using. ZOS should have stopped to explain what they were doing better than they did. Q and A. All they had to do was sift through the forum and find things that people didn't understand about what was in U35 (questions) and publish something about it (answers).

They were similarly dismissive about details in both AwA and U35. They did this "drive by" thing where they just dropped a sound bite with nothing to explain it. In AwA, this happened at the reveal where they just tossed AwA out there like everyone knew what that was going to be and what they were doing. In U35 they just tossed out that they were reducing dungeon boss hit points, but not which bosses or by how much. We found out in a dev Tweet some additional details, but they never did expand on that. Details were left up to Player Testable, but then, how do we know if ZOS got it right when we test it? Some player has to think that it is wrong, then bring it to their attention, and maybe (maybe) someone at ZOS will say whether it is intended or not.

I probably care too much about this subject.

Eh, I'm here too, so if you care too much, so do I.

I think you've got great points here, particularly about the internal lingo and shutting down when they miss the mark.

As for internal lingo, I remember way back when the Devs did their deep dive into class identity. That was really helpful for explaining the Devs' goals and how they talked about it. Players won't usually use terms like "power fantasy" and "play patterns", but the Devs were, and it helped me understand d where they were coming from.