Why PVP Failed?

Parasaurolophus

Broken meta and bad balance

Yes, it's a bump. But now it's MYM, Saturday. Queues for bg`s 5min+

Loves_guars

Terrible performance in Cyrodiil

I've tried PVPing in ESO because I actually like PVPing in MMOs. But I just find it horribly non responsive. That is all. A shame.

hakan

Terrible performance in Cyrodiil

DagenHawk wrote: »

Inevitably PVPers always run out of Victims.

The community does an amazing job of misdirect showing how PVP is never about Pawning N00bs/Scrubs I mean Oscar winning performances

But in the end that is really what it's all about...and I have had a lot of PVPers admit that when they thought no one was looking.

If a game is like Planetside it "may" work...

But never with a Elder Scrolls MMO.

Sorry.

Never seen a game that has players that whine so much on pvp. Nope.

This is the first game ive seen that pve'rs trash talk pvpers as if they are the problem even though it has been shown again and again its not true.

Its just incredible, really.

As for the thread, the never ending "balancing" (whether its for pvp or pve reasons) and the never ending cyrodiil performance problem, it "failed". Too bad you didnt include both options in one button.

Then again, pve seems like it "failed" too.

shadyjane62

Terrible performance in Cyrodiil

Until recently the performance of the servers was atrocious. After they improved the queues were atrocious.

Geldauran

Broken meta and bad balance

There needs to be regular events to keep it busy

Paske

Terrible performance in Cyrodiil

Playing in EU - Cyrodill Grey Host

Getting disconnects every 10-15 min. Then lost lobby connection.


Lag is a [snip] show. Lag is always a [snip] show.


Then you find out ZOS is running it on 10 years old hardware. Because COVID, it has been here for years. They would upgrade otherwise ...

No new content is icing on cake. But cyrodill is a very unique in MMO world, so most of us hate play it.

[Edited for Censor Bypass]

MasterSpatula

Broken meta and bad balance

Two types of people are drawn to PVP, competitors and bullies. You can't eliminate the bullies, but you mustn't pander to them, either.

As various factors have driven the competitors away, ZOS has often gone out of their way to make the bullies happier as their fix to PVP. This, of course, creates a vicious circle of driving away the people who make PVP fun, further dominance by the people ZOS should never be pandering to, and ZOS pandering to them.

Every attempt to make Cyridiil more fun makes it less so because ZOS is designing for the people who get off on other people's misery rather than than for the people who would rather lose a seriously challenging fight than win a stupidly-easy one.

shadyjane62

Terrible performance in Cyrodiil

Grayhost queue 117 Blackreach queue 110.

spacefracking

Broken meta and bad balance

I don't want to go fight a bunch of broken templars and dks

Rowjoh

Broken meta and bad balance

^^
....and Nightblades and Necro's

..and Sorcs and Wardens

AvalonRanger

Broken meta and bad balance

True PVPver will play Apex Legend type of game, not like ESO.
ESO is fake combat game. It's not decent PVP style game. That's the
biggest reason.

Caribou77

Terrible performance in Cyrodiil

Consistent lag, in BGs and Cyro. Lag so bad it is literally unplayable sometimes.

Lack of class balance. Extreme imbalance. This should not be so hard to achieve, and I don’t understand how it has struggled for so long. Overcorrections, I guess, rather than fine tuning.

xDeusEJRx

Blame the casual direction of the ESO

I picked casual direction, but I think the real issue is performance.

PvP failed because of terrible performance.

Why is that proc builds are the strongest builds in PVP and have been since before Flames of Ambition change to scaling of proc damage?

Thats because of terrible performance. Stat based builds can't keep up when you can't even use your own abilities to fight or defend yourself.

And what does that have to do with procs? Well procs are the only damage that works without fail in PVP. You've never heard anyone say "my dark convergence fired off late" or "my caluurions legacy didn't come out when it was supposed to".

But you always hear, "why is my leap not working" "why is my fossilize bugged" "my mist form doesn't work". Abilities are VERY unreliable in terrible performance, but PROCS ALWAYS WORK.

If performance was GOOD, people could actually kill or play without needing to rely on procs. Poor performance is a major factor in how bad PVP is to play in right now.

FlopsyPrince

PvP is not doing well from what I see for a few factors:

- Strong PvP players are not pleased with almost any part of PvP.
- Weaker PvP players have no way to get better without a massive amount of work that some can likely never do. This includes hours outside the game. (That is not true in PvE and the lower levels at least (non-Trial or the really harder dungeons.)
- Weaker players can't play against other players of their skill, but get thrown in the general pool to be fodder.
- An event like Whitestrakes just seems to please some posters here, feeding lots of PvEers for PvPers to kill, but not generating much long term satisfaction with PvP from anyone.

I don't see a solution to any of these coming soon.

renne

Probably about to stick my whole foot in and ruin it but apart from some lil lag spikes, GH on PS-NA during prime time has been fine (on a PS5 ). With a 2 hour queue.

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

- An event like Whitestrakes just seems to please some posters here, feeding lots of PvEers for PvPers to kill, but not generating much long term satisfaction with PvP from anyone.

It's weird because the only people on this forum I ever see talking about this is PvErs.

Elendir2am

Terrible performance in Cyrodiil

From given selection, performance is an obvious candidate, but I believe, that giving toxic playing as choice would be real chalanger.

I often start my visit of Cyrodiil on positive note during this events, but then, before it ends, I find why I go there so rarely.

For example today. EP poplocked, ballgroup as core of massive zerg go around to conquest all forts. Population of AD and DC fall from 3 to 2 bars. (best time to give EP volendrung, nice timeng realy)
But yeah, I will not be coward and ry flee. Some killing with ballista, then they pursue to kill my behind gates. Still OK.
We (AD) mobilized some and was able get back 3 forts when EP arrive with volendrung. We cannot fight ball group, massive zerg and volendrung all together, so we bypassed them and went directly for Alessia to prevent gating as.
But who arrived as defender of castle. Blue ball group come to prevent us from taking read keep, although they hold only 2 keeps themself.

So I am not sad, that I go on business trip next week and miss big part of event anymore. Waiting for next year event as just enough to make me forget how toxic PvP can be.
I applaud you PvPers, another events and another missed opportunity.

PS. I am sure, that in different campaign or different time, can be AD as toxic as others two. So nothing against EP or DC. It is some players who make it so and they play through all alliances.

AvalonRanger

Broken meta and bad balance

I really can't accept "penetration" and "impenetration" as the game mechanics
and those game design mind. And I also feel that the PVP rule of limitation of
1K health recovery is very stupid game idea. Can't understand why developer
brought those things. Go aggressive or keep staying defensive is good enough
and simple. And it's a same rule of PVE, yes?

But, ZOS made strange invisible "wall". Or kind of dissonance theory.

Those are definitely making meta dividing wall between PVE and PVP
game world. Developer might performed it intentionally for something purpose.

Then, What is the real purpose of meta division wall between PVE and PVP?
Marketing difference? Or avoiding player's confliction? Well, so mysterious.
(I can't find out true reason. But personally, no thanks for ESO PVP.)

Might be...

This game is too much depend on character building aspect, and doesn't consider
environment effect.

for example

>choose starting point anywhere for level design benefit

>set up lethal wire trap by player at the important passage

>supply drop point

>consider field elevation effect, or more complex level design.

>demolition of specific structure to avoid opponent team progression
or, making temporary bridge for friendly team mate
(not just gate of fortress, bridge or climbing ladder)

>decent stealth tactics like the assassin's creed

Mixing those idea in the PVP, then it will not become character building only game.
But, ESO engine doesn't have capability to treat those contemporary action game
usual. So, ESO PVP looks like very shallow and retro game impression. Moreover,
melee damage judgement area is too much wide, or stupid missile projectile also
ruin tension of action game.

So, I keep calling about this game as "fake combat game"(or fake action game).
Or 80's retro game. And, also not less people said similar opinion at the SNS.

renne

Elendir2am wrote: »

From given selection, performance is an obvious candidate, but I believe, that giving toxic playing as choice would be real chalanger.

I often start my visit of Cyrodiil on positive note during this events, but then, before it ends, I find why I go there so rarely.

For example today. EP poplocked, ballgroup as core of massive zerg go around to conquest all forts. Population of AD and DC fall from 3 to 2 bars. (best time to give EP volendrung, nice timeng realy)
But yeah, I will not be coward and ry flee. Some killing with ballista, then they pursue to kill my behind gates. Still OK.
We (AD) mobilized some and was able get back 3 forts when EP arrive with volendrung. We cannot fight ball group, massive zerg and volendrung all together, so we bypassed them and went directly for Alessia to prevent gating as.
But who arrived as defender of castle. Blue ball group come to prevent us from taking read keep, although they hold only 2 keeps themself.

So I am not sad, that I go on business trip next week and miss big part of event anymore. Waiting for next year event as just enough to make me forget how toxic PvP can be.
I applaud you PvPers, another events and another missed opportunity.

PS. I am sure, that in different campaign or different time, can be AD as toxic as others two. So nothing against EP or DC. It is some players who make it so and they play through all alliances.

Unfortunately purple be like that, friend. But also that said, when I used to be blue we used to say orange be like that.

Yellow does like to accuse their own alliance of being spies more than blue ever did, though, for risks that would be utterly amazing if they'd actually paid off.

Vulkunne

Broken meta and bad balance

Parasaurolophus wrote: »

Prime time weekend. EU campaigns are almost empty. The same players meet at BG`s matches, and the queues are huge. Looking at this situation, I can safely say for myself that the PVP in this game is not just going through a difficult time. It completely failed in the end and there is no hope that it will get better. It hurts me a lot to watch this. Yes, I'm not much of a pvp player. But I like the PvP in this game, like the combat system and the gameplay. When there is nothing to do in pve, pvp always greeted you with almost round-the-clock activity.
8 years have passed and I would like to discuss in this thread what went wrong and when? After all, PVP was definitely a success in the early years for ESO. There were twice as many campaigns and they were always full. And the players were constantly discussing PVP, the balance of classes, sets, looking for pvp guilds, and so on...
Below I have given some options for poll. I understand that all circumstances are most likely to blame to varying degrees, but I will ask you to choose what annoys you the most and repels you from pvp.
For me, it's a balance. I haven't played much in Cyrodiil, mostly preferring BG`s. I love my main nb. I loved playing it and I liked the way this class plays. But then, the meta moved further and further towards heavy armor and burst combos. At first, I tried to play in a way that would remain competitive. I didn't like it. But then, in the Murkmire patch, NB was hit hard with a nerfhammer. Since then, balance in pvp has become too toxic for me. I saw that if you are not a manasorc or a stamvarden, then in pvp it is even better not to try. About Cyrodiil... Really dancing around resources or running and spamming AoE in ballgroups is this high-end pvp content? I would also like to remember the absolutely terrible Zaan + Malacath + Veteshran meta, which the ZoS did not want to fix for a whole year. In general, a series of bad decisions, a lack of desire to fix obvious problems and distortions in the meta, made me just forget about pvp a year and a half ago.

Why is PvP having problems... Here's my list.

a) Tall progression w/ CP and Skills
b) Expensive, extremely over-priced mats hinders build development for the masses
c) Ball groups are extremely powerful and bend normal game mechanics in a way that no average player has any hope of coping with. A group should have privileges but the way many of these ball groups operate feels like exploitation, not normal gameplay
d) Cancer PvP Sets such as Dark Convergence. Now, it isn't that I don't know how to deal with this set but what happens is new players or weak players die and eliminate everyone else around them so even if I could save myself I die anyways because they don't know what they're doing or are not strong enough. This is one of, if not perhaps the worst thing to add in Cyrodiil as it gives ball groups basically a free hand to cause even more mayhem. Seriously? Why did we need Dark Convergence again? lol why.
e) Lag

tim77

Broken meta and bad balance

Mr_Stach wrote: »

But when was the last time we had a real PvP Update? Not Events. Not Technical Fixes. Actual new PvP Content.

Let's see:
-Imperial City back in Update 7 - 2015
-BGs launched in the Update 18 (Morrowind)- 2017
-Artifact Weapons Launched in Update 22 (Elsweyr) - 2019

Let me know if I missed something

card game 2022

kind_hero

Terrible performance in Cyrodiil

I wonder how many people/faction mean full in a campaign.

Right now it's the Pelinal Mayhem event, so there is a lot of interest in PvP. However, on Sunday at noon, I was on a standard 7 day CP campaign on PC EU, and there was a big issue in finding enough players to defend one keep. It was like there was low population, when the campaign was almost full with players.

I believe that ZOS decreased the player cap on campaigns for stability reasons. The map is huge. There should be lots of groups. I remember playing many years ago. I couldn't travel to most places without being attacked, or ganked. It took me months to complete the PvE and exploration landmarks. As it is now, the map is pretty safe to cross.

Regarding gear... I really enjoy all the sets that have some sort of proc/buff, whatever. But this is more from a single player, PvE, casual overland playing. I like when I fight mobs and something cool, like a Valkyn meteor pops up.
For PvP, I am not sure this is a good thing. Dark Convergence is fun once or twice, but one can see pretty quickly how this set is abused, and becomes disruptive. I am not sure this is the way to address ball groups. I think ball groups are the main reason PvP is broken. Such a group can keep up trolling a keep and a group of not organized players for a lot of time. There should be some diminishing returns for spells in a time window. Like if you keep spamming heals to the same players for 3 minutes, they will get less heals. I don't know. But something has to give.

Let's not forget about performance. It's poor. We are in 2022, this IP has been bought by Microsoft, there should be plenty of resources to do something radical regarding performance, because this game is still very popular. I am sure thousands of players would return if ESO would drastically improve the engine or servers. I am also sure that most players would be happy without a new chapter if such an overhaul would happen.

FlopsyPrince

renne wrote: »

Probably about to stick my whole foot in and ruin it but apart from some lil lag spikes, GH on PS-NA during prime time has been fine (on a PS5 ). With a 2 hour queue.

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

- An event like Whitestrakes just seems to please some posters here, feeding lots of PvEers for PvPers to kill, but not generating much long term satisfaction with PvP from anyone.

It's weird because the only people on this forum I ever see talking about this is PvErs.

Of course. The PvPers love it!

This event I mean. I see plenty of complaints about PvP in general on a regular basis. Are you not seeing those?

Elendir2am

Terrible performance in Cyrodiil

renne wrote: »

Unfortunately purple be like that, friend. But also that said, when I used to be blue we used to say orange be like that.

Yellow does like to accuse their own alliance of being spies more than blue ever did, though, for risks that would be utterly amazing if they'd actually paid off.

I don't think it was "purple" against yellow. I think, they were reds in blue coats.

EP was poplocked, so they logged in as DC, but did tasks for EP.
It harmed AD and DC equally.
AD because we didnt conquer Alessia. DC because they sieged Glademist in smaller number.

Question is, what EP guild is responsible for this behaviour. It is EU/PC 7 days campaign with CP.
I cannot log in to look for its name, but EP holds all scrolls, every time I logged in. We borrowed occasionally one of them.
However, EP guild/s who fought there, don't like any challenge and spares no tactics to dominate the campaign.

FlopsyPrince

tim77 wrote: »

Mr_Stach wrote: »

But when was the last time we had a real PvP Update? Not Events. Not Technical Fixes. Actual new PvP Content.

Let's see:
-Imperial City back in Update 7 - 2015
-BGs launched in the Update 18 (Morrowind)- 2017
-Artifact Weapons Launched in Update 22 (Elsweyr) - 2019

Let me know if I missed something

card game 2022

This was my point in my other post. While several will jump in threads and say someone who doesn't like the setup in these events, many PvPers still point to the things you note. (Though calling the card game "PvP" is stretching the normal definition. I doubt it is satisfying many who want traditional PvP. Not saying some don't like it, but a different play experience.)

FlopsyPrince

BTW,

I can have some fun in this event, at times, but the gankers (not the PvPers, but those camping quest points and such) can quickly kill the fun part.

And yes, this game should be fun or I will do something else.

Being able to camp near an enemy controlled quest zone and kill people only pleases a very limited few in the game. Getting hit by a mass group in any PvP location is part of playing, but you can usually go someplace else, except if your faction (AD mostly for me) is doing poorly, as it often is.

Sarannah

For the first time ever I am actually having fun in IC on my PvP build, due to oakensoul. As it seems to have balanced the scales, due to no longer dying in 0.4 seconds every single time. But I am actually able to fight back somewhat. Yes, almost all PvPers still kill me, but atleast I have a small chance to win now.

For the first time ever in ESO's PvP, I am actually logging in to have fun in the IC. Even aimlessly wandering around to find fights. So please, do not nerf oakensoul. Or change PvP completely so that instant kills are no longer possible. As this also allows players the chance to improve, which dying instantly does not provide.

PS: This is posted during the midyear mayhem event on august 1st 2022, with the unnerfed version of oakensoul on live(all major buffs).
PPS: Please fix the one second drawing weapon delay as this is a huge negative/unfairness when using doors or zoning in the IC, if someone happens to attack during that time. Which happens quite a lot.

Michae

Broken meta and bad balance

I play Battlegrounds quite regularly but I don't really go into the builds. I played with my PvE set with a various degree of success, now I got a PvP setup from a guide online. Most frustrating thing in PvP in ESO is when you face an opponent that has better gear than you. They can melt you in seconds, why you no matter what can't dent them one bit. And the game doesn't really tell you why you're dying. It's more fun when you're facing someone close to your level of gear. I'm not that bad at dodging, using tactics, and running away when overwhelmed. So I wouldn't say I'm a total noob. But, but even if I lose I need to feel that we're on similar footing, and lost because of some mistake I made. With those different gear setups it's like playing with some who's on cheats, no way of telling what gear they're using, no way of winning in that instance. So it comes down not to who's more agile and knows the game mechanics better, but to who found a better gear setup online (or eventually who can compare sets better). The only solution is to stop playing PvP and grind some another set in hope you don't get melted that easily (which is boring if you're interested in PvP), or just giving up PvP in general. For me PvP is a fun little distraction from the main course of PvE questing, 10 minute Battleground match to get xp and then back to fun stuff I came to ESO for in the first place.

Luede

Broken meta and bad balance

- ZOS has refused to implement pvp based changes, incentives in the game for years.
- Performance has been getting worse for years instead of better, even though they say they are working on it intensively.
- It is hard for new players to get a foothold in pvp, because it takes a long time to get good.
- Idiotically designed sets find their way into pvp every few months.
- catastrophic balance changes take way too long to be corrected.

ESO has the best pvp i have ever seen, unfortunately ZOS manages to destroy it completely and probably on purpose, because it is not so noticeable in pve if you as a game designer have no idea of your own product. the npcs are not complaining

Dawnblade

Because it's an unbalanced mess sums it up for me.

Also, I do not care for PvDoor / PvWall / PvNPC never-ending objective-less style PVP.

A battleground that was population balanced, with a win condition to achieve, and larger in scale than existing BGs would be great. Double so if it were no CP / no proc.

Of course, I doubt anyone would play it.

Outside of all the 'ball groups suck', 'population balance is a joke', 'X set is OP' comments from the PVP crowd, the fact is the unbalanced mess that is the main CP campaign is the only one that has a consistent population.

My conclusion is that for all the comments tied to balance made by the PVP community, most don't want real balance, they are just of the typical 'dear ZoS, nerf rock, signed scissor' balance requests.

EdmondDontes

Terrible performance in Cyrodiil

PvP has not failed. ZOS has failed to support PvP.