Why PVP Failed?

Mr_Stach

Broken meta and bad balance

PvP is "Dying" because of Sledgehammer Nerfs in general, constantly and dramatically shifting Combat Balance isn't healthy for the game. People are sick of the Whiplash so they go elsewhere.

There's also the general Stale PvP Options, we really haven't had any significant PvP options added since BGs. 5 YEARS AGO.

They should really add some new Modes. Maybe some Free-for-all something.

AllegedParadigm

No new content

I'd actually say it's some combination of all of them. I PvP regularly. The BG community is outraged by deathmatch queue being taken away. This leads to some poor behaviors that ruins the fun of BG's for others that want the non DM Modes. Cyrodiil is better now but has always had lag issues. There's heal stacking and other issues whether in CP or Non-CP Campaigns. All types of PvP haven't really gotten any real content in years (I don't feel like outfit styles count as content). And yeah balance is a mess. I feel like the majority of people who still enjoy PvP are mostly forced to play the meta to feel like they can compete in any of it.

Parasaurolophus

Broken meta and bad balance

DreamyLu wrote: »

For me, the question is biased from the first: I wouldn't say that PvP failed. Also, I don't think one unique choice can be made out of the proposed options.

In a PvE game, no matter what one, PvP has a lower population than PvE. Logically, PvP content is less "progressed" over time compared to PvE content. Over years, it results in an "erosion" of PvP as PvPers get bored due to lack of changes and renewing of population is less active than in PvE. It's a normal process. From there, hardcore PvPers keep going plus a bit of new blood that maintains a sufficient enough population, but of course, it's no more as it was during the first years.

I know that pretty well. Am a hardcore WvWer in GW2 and I had to go through the same declining phase. Now we can keep WvW but it's no more the same. I don't know the PvP side of GW2, but based on what my friends tell me about, it's nearly the same. I believe it's generic in all PvE game for all content that isn't PvE.

My opinion is based on a too small population of pvp players on EU. For an MMO with about twenty thousand online players per server per day, 200-300 pvp players in prime time is a disaster.

McTaterskins

Bottom line is - if they fixed performance, then spent some real testing and analysis time after performance fix in an effort to do a true balance patch, ESO would be the absolute best non FPS pvp game out there.

They also would end up having performance issues again anyway, because there's no way they're prepared for that kind of influx in player population.

Imagine if those 19m copies sold actually mattered? Crazy.

Celephantsylvius_Bornasfinmo

Terrible performance in Cyrodiil

Because I'm still crashing after U33 (only in Cyrodiil) and then I have to wait and wait and wait...
Then I get 'account logged in'...and then when finally in it never loads Cyro and I get sent back to the login screen again (Lost connection to lobby).

Total process time - over 10 minutes to get the character back on (I know the work arounds, but no...fix it)

It's 2022 and this is stuff that was happening 5 years ago.

(PS can't go near a busy fort without being sent back to login)

EdmondDontes

Terrible performance in Cyrodiil

PvP isn't broken. ZOS is obligated to deliver a better working product just as they used to deliver once upon a time.

PvP hasn't failed. ZOS' support for PvP has failed.

Mr_Stach

Broken meta and bad balance

Zos isn't Obligated to do anything except make money for Shareholders. They could shut down ESO tomorrow and would not owe you as the consumer anything. You aren't their Customer, you're the Product. But as long they are making money with Crown Crates and Subs, ESO will probably stay open.

Like not to be a Debbie Downer, but that's the reality.

Castagere

As a non PVPer I wish they would just dump PVP period. I am so sick and tired of my abilities being nerfed because of it. It is not fair to non-PVPer to have to keep going through this. this.

Necrotech_Master

AllegedParadigm wrote: »

I'd actually say it's some combination of all of them. I PvP regularly. The BG community is outraged by deathmatch queue being taken away. This leads to some poor behaviors that ruins the fun of BG's for others that want the non DM Modes. Cyrodiil is better now but has always had lag issues. There's heal stacking and other issues whether in CP or Non-CP Campaigns. All types of PvP haven't really gotten any real content in years (I don't feel like outfit styles count as content). And yeah balance is a mess. I feel like the majority of people who still enjoy PvP are mostly forced to play the meta to feel like they can compete in any of it.

i dont think they should have completely taken away the deathmatch only queue, but i am glad that "random" actually means random instead of "DM with a lottery chance to get something other than DM"

ive actually started participating in BGs again to complete endeavors, although i still generally prefer the more open areas and sieging of cyrodiil for pvp

gamma71

You need a all of the above option on your poll because it's is all those things. Not just one,

ArchMikem

Broken meta and bad balance

When you try to fight someone who moves faster than you, mitigates and outheals every skill you use, then slaps you upside the head with a quick combo? That's far more destructive than choppy performance.

Anyron

Terrible performance in Cyrodiil

Castagere wrote: »

As a non PVPer I wish they would just dump PVP period. I am so sick and tired of my abilities being nerfed because of it. It is not fair to non-PVPer to have to keep going through this. this.

Yeah keep blaming PvP for everything.. What about mist form like someone tried before you, even when mist form still works in PvP but not in pve
Remember, its zos fault to not be able to properly balance skills ( how they could with no cooldowns when you can spam skills and partial animation canceling) not players. Zos still disagrees to separate PvP and pve skills / sets
But sure.. John/Jane Doe the PvP player is at fault

Mr_Stach

Broken meta and bad balance

EdmondDontes

Terrible performance in Cyrodiil

Mr_Stach wrote: »

Zos isn't Obligated to do anything except make money for Shareholders. They could shut down ESO tomorrow and would not owe you as the consumer anything. You aren't their Customer, you're the Product. But as long they are making money with Crown Crates and Subs, ESO will probably stay open.

Like not to be a Debbie Downer, but that's the reality.

ZOS does not have shareholders since the sale to MS. The shareholders sold their interests in the company to MS is how that works.

EdmondDontes

Terrible performance in Cyrodiil

Castagere wrote: »

As a non PVPer I wish they would just dump PVP period. I am so sick and tired of my abilities being nerfed because of it. It is not fair to non-PVPer to have to keep going through this. this.

Dumping PvP would eliminate at least 1/3rd of the player base.

PvP is all the PvE content plus a ton more time, money and effort to be able to PvP.

DMuehlhausen

Blame the casual direction of the ESO

I love how one of the options ( I chose it) is to blame a PvE based game where PvP is basically a tacked on mini game to appease 4% of the playerbase.

The only reason Cyrodil wasn't covnerted years ago to a PvE zone is because of how loudly the minor pvp community complains. If it disappeared tomorrow practically nobody would notice and they wouldn't even see much of a loss in revenue from the couple thousand probably subs that pvp regularly.

The keep it to keep your money coming in.

Wolfpaw

DMuehlhausen wrote: »

I love how one of the options ( I chose it) is to blame a PvE based game where PvP is basically a tacked on mini game to appease 4% of the playerbase.

The only reason Cyrodil wasn't covnerted years ago to a PvE zone is because of how loudly the minor pvp community complains. If it disappeared tomorrow practically nobody would notice and they wouldn't even see much of a loss in revenue from the couple thousand probably subs that pvp regularly.

The keep it to keep your money coming in.

If this was the case ZOSoft would have done it, they make decisions based off profit, not forum crying...AWA ring a bell? It's not the case at all. PvP players have to pve (buy pve updates/eso plus) to stay competitive. Server updates are not for housing and overland, combat balance is favored towards pvp, etc...Cyrodiil at launch was the only way to have a guild trader for the public, was the end game at release. The PvP community is big,..and yes they also do trials, pve, housing, eso plus, and spend large amounts of money in crown store.

If pvp was removed completely this game would have a very uncertain future. A healthy balance and support for all pvp & pve is a must, you should try to remember/support that.

Browiseth

Blame the casual direction of the ESO

Wolfpaw wrote: »

DMuehlhausen wrote: »

I love how one of the options ( I chose it) is to blame a PvE based game where PvP is basically a tacked on mini game to appease 4% of the playerbase.

The only reason Cyrodil wasn't covnerted years ago to a PvE zone is because of how loudly the minor pvp community complains. If it disappeared tomorrow practically nobody would notice and they wouldn't even see much of a loss in revenue from the couple thousand probably subs that pvp regularly.

The keep it to keep your money coming in.

If this was the case ZOSoft would have done it, they make decisions based off profit, not forum crying...AWA ring a bell? It's not the case at all. PvP players have to pve (buy pve updates/eso plus) to stay competitive. Server updates are not for housing and overland, combat balance is favored towards pvp, etc...Cyrodiil at launch was the only way to have a guild trader for the public, was the end game at release. The PvP community is big,..and yes they also do trials, pve, housing, eso plus, and spend large amounts of money in crown store.

If pvp was removed completely this game would have a very uncertain future. A healthy balance and support for all pvp & pve is a must, you should try to remember/support that.

this line of reasoning is so one dimensional. you can't just say "companies want money therefore any decision they make is tied to that one single goal"

well i'm sorry, but while it might make it easier for you to understand the world, human beings aren't so one dimensional. there is a dedicated, al beit most likely smaller portion of ZOS's dev team who specifically work on pvp systems and i would imagine some of those people have grown quite passionate about that side of the game in their time working on it. that's not even taking into consideration that the dev team as a whole no doubt has an artistic vision for the game in their sights.

yes companies want to make money, but the people who work in companies are humans with goals and aspirations beyond sheer profit, just like you.

please gaming communities, stop oversimplifying real people down to "people want money"

Castagere

Anyron wrote: »

Castagere wrote: »

As a non PVPer I wish they would just dump PVP period. I am so sick and tired of my abilities being nerfed because of it. It is not fair to non-PVPer to have to keep going through this. this.

Yeah keep blaming PvP for everything.. What about mist form like someone tried before you, even when mist form still works in PvP but not in pve
Remember, its zos fault to not be able to properly balance skills ( how they could with no cooldowns when you can spam skills and partial animation canceling) not players. Zos still disagrees to separate PvP and pve skills / sets
But sure.. John/Jane Doe the PvP player is at fault

This right here is the problem. NPCs are not the ones crying that a mage is op because he beat their warrior. There are pvpers crying about DK are op and now they are getting nerfed.

AlwaysOnFire

Keeping any personal salt out of it, I think that PvP's participation/reward concept right now is dysfunctional. Basically, players with the most advantages (this may be skill, but it can also be hardware, proximity to the server, ability to commit time to entertainment, etc.) rely on players with the least advantages to show up to try and get the benefits from PvP (skyshards, skill points, etc. in Cyrodiil at least) and be available to basically reap their own rewards.

This creates an atmosphere that is very frustrating for people who hate that these benefits are held behind maxed-out 1vX monsters kicking them around. In Cyrodiil it can be hard for basic players who aren't in an influential PvP guild already to even figure out what's going on or where to commit to going... only to find it fruitless when they actually arrive. So between that and not really being able to organize, many people give up and cease making themselves available.

Which in turn frustrates all those people who put in all that time, effort, or who were fortunate enough to have those other advantages because now their crop of AP packages is reduced. It is not actually that 'fun' to struggle against exclusively other maxed-out 1vX monsters. At least, not compared to dominating less prepared people.

So because systemically the carrot for one group is the stick for the other group and you're never going to catch the people who have every waking moment to spend grinding for emp... it's not surprising that a lot of people are dissatisfied with what's basically a "get bullied/hey-where-did-everybody-go" simulator.

francesinhalover

Terrible performance in Cyrodiil

I really wish the Terrible performance was only on cyrodil tbh.

They should realllly add ways to decrease lagg, like disabling other player pets, special effects, companions etc.
because at this point i enter vivec city, lose 60% of my fps and just feel like quiting and only logging in when other players are asleep.

Wolfpaw

Browiseth wrote: »

Wolfpaw wrote: »

DMuehlhausen wrote: »

I love how one of the options ( I chose it) is to blame a PvE based game where PvP is basically a tacked on mini game to appease 4% of the playerbase.

The only reason Cyrodil wasn't covnerted years ago to a PvE zone is because of how loudly the minor pvp community complains. If it disappeared tomorrow practically nobody would notice and they wouldn't even see much of a loss in revenue from the couple thousand probably subs that pvp regularly.

The keep it to keep your money coming in.

If this was the case ZOSoft would have done it, they make decisions based off profit, not forum crying...AWA ring a bell? It's not the case at all. PvP players have to pve (buy pve updates/eso plus) to stay competitive. Server updates are not for housing and overland, combat balance is favored towards pvp, etc...Cyrodiil at launch was the only way to have a guild trader for the public, was the end game at release. The PvP community is big,..and yes they also do trials, pve, housing, eso plus, and spend large amounts of money in crown store.

If pvp was removed completely this game would have a very uncertain future. A healthy balance and support for all pvp & pve is a must, you should try to remember/support that.

this line of reasoning is so one dimensional. you can't just say "companies want money therefore any decision they make is tied to that one single goal"

well i'm sorry, but while it might make it easier for you to understand the world, human beings aren't so one dimensional. there is a dedicated, al beit most likely smaller portion of ZOS's dev team who specifically work on pvp systems and i would imagine some of those people have grown quite passionate about that side of the game in their time working on it. that's not even taking into consideration that the dev team as a whole no doubt has an artistic vision for the game in their sights.

yes companies want to make money, but the people who work in companies are humans with goals and aspirations beyond sheer profit, just like you.

please gaming communities, stop oversimplifying real people down to "people want money"

Those people you mention just fill in the cost parameters they are given, everything in a game this large is about profit. If they do a good job the game stays open and they keep their job. It's that simple.

EdmondDontes

Terrible performance in Cyrodiil

DMuehlhausen wrote: »

I love how one of the options ( I chose it) is to blame a PvE based game where PvP is basically a tacked on mini game to appease 4% of the playerbase.

The only reason Cyrodil wasn't covnerted years ago to a PvE zone is because of how loudly the minor pvp community complains. If it disappeared tomorrow practically nobody would notice and they wouldn't even see much of a loss in revenue from the couple thousand probably subs that pvp regularly.

The keep it to keep your money coming in.

You couldn't be more wrong. PvP is now and always has been advertised as the end game in ESO.

Just because you don't like PvP doesn't mean nobody plays it or likes it.

PvP is all the PvE plus a ton more time, money and investment into the game. That's how it is now and how it has always been.

karekiz

No new content

The game wanted to be DAoC 2 but lets be honest. The game that had the closest chance of that was Warhammer Online.

DMuehlhausen

Blame the casual direction of the ESO

EdmondDontes wrote: »

DMuehlhausen wrote: »

I love how one of the options ( I chose it) is to blame a PvE based game where PvP is basically a tacked on mini game to appease 4% of the playerbase.

The only reason Cyrodil wasn't covnerted years ago to a PvE zone is because of how loudly the minor pvp community complains. If it disappeared tomorrow practically nobody would notice and they wouldn't even see much of a loss in revenue from the couple thousand probably subs that pvp regularly.

The keep it to keep your money coming in.

You couldn't be more wrong. PvP is now and always has been advertised as the end game in ESO.

Just because you don't like PvP doesn't mean nobody plays it or likes it.

PvP is all the PvE plus a ton more time, money and investment into the game. That's how it is now and how it has always been.

I mean it's not. It never has been. I hate PvP in all games like this for the issues it causes. You can never balance it and PvE yet developers keep screwing it up and trying.

If you go out to Cyrodil during none event times you see like the same couple thousand players if that. Nobody cares about it, at least not enough to where it should stay. If they just made Cyrodil disappear nobody would really notice. The forums would be a little quieter and a few less elitist jerks in the dungeon queue, but nothing that would make anybody worry about the future of the game.

AdamLAD

Terrible performance in Cyrodiil

Has to be performance. I can overcome the insane balance problems. But you cannot overcome the lag. Literally its reason I die in PvP 99% of the time. Zerglings do not understand how much harder its going to be when good players can actually play properly. Simple as that. But its not just lag. Its everything you have mentioned. Balance is actually horrendous, no PvP content and the rewards are pathetic. Game had so much potential. Down the drain it went

EdmondDontes

Terrible performance in Cyrodiil

DMuehlhausen wrote: »

EdmondDontes wrote: »

DMuehlhausen wrote: »

I love how one of the options ( I chose it) is to blame a PvE based game where PvP is basically a tacked on mini game to appease 4% of the playerbase.

The only reason Cyrodil wasn't covnerted years ago to a PvE zone is because of how loudly the minor pvp community complains. If it disappeared tomorrow practically nobody would notice and they wouldn't even see much of a loss in revenue from the couple thousand probably subs that pvp regularly.

The keep it to keep your money coming in.

You couldn't be more wrong. PvP is now and always has been advertised as the end game in ESO.

Just because you don't like PvP doesn't mean nobody plays it or likes it.

PvP is all the PvE plus a ton more time, money and investment into the game. That's how it is now and how it has always been.

I mean it's not. It never has been. I hate PvP in all games like this for the issues it causes. You can never balance it and PvE yet developers keep screwing it up and trying.

If you go out to Cyrodil during none event times you see like the same couple thousand players if that. Nobody cares about it, at least not enough to where it should stay. If they just made Cyrodil disappear nobody would really notice. The forums would be a little quieter and a few less elitist jerks in the dungeon queue, but nothing that would make anybody worry about the future of the game.

You couldn't be more wrong. You're just trying to justify your personal views with factual inaccuracies.

Thecompton73 wrote: »

This thread is proof that the PvE population is WAAAYYYY more toxic than the PvP population.

Casul

EdmondDontes wrote: »

DMuehlhausen wrote: »

EdmondDontes wrote: »

DMuehlhausen wrote: »

I love how one of the options ( I chose it) is to blame a PvE based game where PvP is basically a tacked on mini game to appease 4% of the playerbase.

The only reason Cyrodil wasn't covnerted years ago to a PvE zone is because of how loudly the minor pvp community complains. If it disappeared tomorrow practically nobody would notice and they wouldn't even see much of a loss in revenue from the couple thousand probably subs that pvp regularly.

The keep it to keep your money coming in.

You couldn't be more wrong. PvP is now and always has been advertised as the end game in ESO.

Just because you don't like PvP doesn't mean nobody plays it or likes it.

PvP is all the PvE plus a ton more time, money and investment into the game. That's how it is now and how it has always been.

I mean it's not. It never has been. I hate PvP in all games like this for the issues it causes. You can never balance it and PvE yet developers keep screwing it up and trying.

If you go out to Cyrodil during none event times you see like the same couple thousand players if that. Nobody cares about it, at least not enough to where it should stay. If they just made Cyrodil disappear nobody would really notice. The forums would be a little quieter and a few less elitist jerks in the dungeon queue, but nothing that would make anybody worry about the future of the game.

You couldn't be more wrong. You're just trying to justify your personal views with factual inaccuracies.

Thecompton73 wrote: »

This thread is proof that the PvE population is WAAAYYYY more toxic than the PvP population.

A lot of PvE players fail to acknowledge that we have lost a significant amount of PvP players over the years due to lack of content and support. If PvP got even a fraction of the content PvE got then maybe we would have seen a more stable population (assuming lag would also be solved since that is a significant issue as well).

I_killed_Vivec

The ganker mentality is something that turns off PvE players. Sorry, but that's a major disincentive - why enter PvP, spend time and resources preparing for it, only to be insta-killed (or what looks like it to the unaware) by someone you never saw? All part of PvP, but not part of the romantic notion of a big battle... it turns people off and they never go back.

But the overriding reason for me is the contrast between wasting tons of time looking for a fight (horse simulator mode) only to find one and have the screen freeze as all hell breaks loose, AoEs go off everywhere and you hammer keys hoping that you will still be alive when the screen unfreezes.

Parasaurolophus

Broken meta and bad balance

I_killed_Vivec wrote: »

The ganker mentality is something that turns off PvE players. Sorry, but that's a major disincentive - why enter PvP, spend time and resources preparing for it, only to be insta-killed (or what looks like it to the unaware) by someone you never saw? All part of PvP, but not part of the romantic notion of a big battle... it turns people off and they never go back.

But the overriding reason for me is the contrast between wasting tons of time looking for a fight (horse simulator mode) only to find one and have the screen freeze as all hell breaks loose, AoEs go off everywhere and you hammer keys hoping that you will still be alive when the screen unfreezes.

I have absolutely no idea how anyone can complain about gankers when the balance is shattered by kiters in heavy builds and ballgroups? Seriously?