Why PVP Failed?

McTaterskins

Played some this weekend and went to Cyro for the first time in weeks.

As soon as it got relatively close to primetime, it became unplayable.

Left Cyro and did a vet rando. Skills and attacks not firing. NPC's positionally desyncing. In Spindleclutch 2 of all places.



We logged off and went to another game. Likely won't be back for a while again. In the household, we've gone from 5 subs to 2. May not bother with those either at this point. It's just nonsense.

ZigoSid

Terrible performance in Cyrodiil

Well it's a mix of all the choices but the most annoying is the performances, as it got worse and worse over the years and now even happen PVE ...

I've lost count of the number of times my skills (or even the mouse attacks) have struggled to respond over the past few months in 4 players dungeons.

I'm so sad to see my favorite MMO (lore and gameplay wise) becoming more and more unresponsive over the years ...

aurelius_fx

Broken meta and bad balance

there should be 'all of the above' option in the poll
imo the pvp is fun but fundamentally flawed and a self fulfilling prophecy, less people are interested, less is invested in it, and so on

about the balance, eso is 'play how you want' up until you reach pvp and get your teeth kicked in by veterans and organized groups using the minuscule selection of viable sets

imo they should just go the gw2 way and completely separate pve from pvp

BXR_Lonestar

ResidentContrarian wrote: »

When gear is playing the game, there is little reason to play.

Most outcomes are decided exclusively through gear, and the tank meta thanks to numerous CP stars, ZOS ignoring feedback, etc. is a joke.

And it's clear what sets are the issue since everyone is using them: rallying cry, vate 2h, pariah, malacath, that mythic on the PTS that gives every buff you can ever want (soon to be an issue and kill PvP for sure), etc.

These items are not balanced in any way, shape, or form, when they:

1. Have no replacement
2. Are literally BETTER copies of the same 5-piece effect of other sets (lol don't get me started on that mythic)
3. Ultimately all increase damage, survivability, etc. with little trade-off
4. When combined, all the unbalanced gear cannot be competed with on any build besides ones running the same exact gear

And we're just talking about gear that everyone knows and ignoring bugs that aren't talked about like iron blood and pain refuge, and all the other interactions that are buggy and/or OP in ways they shouldn't be.

We don't even need to talk about classes yet, because the gear is such an issue!

Also, siege is a meme!

This is one of the reasons why they need to completely separate PVP from PVE because there are a lot of things they simply can't do from a balance perspective w/o destroying a skill/gear set/item's utility in PVE.

I also think their thought process on how to have "counterplay" is backwards. For instance, people complain about ball groups so they made sets like Dark Convergence with the idea that Dark Convergence can be a ball group counter set, when all this did was give the ball groups another powerful tool they can use to terrorize people with.

IMO, what they need to do is take a hard look at making sets that boost combat effectiveness with siege significantly so that siege can serve as a hard counter to ball groups - at the cost of combat effectiveness w/o the siege weapons. If they did this, every ballgroup that is farming people at say, Glademist Farm tower, could be busted up with a few shots of fire ballista, meat bags, etc., and the only counter to the strong seige is a coordinated flanking attack.

Four_Fingers

Terrible performance in Cyrodiil

If performance was fixed people will be shocked how many players flock back to PvP.

jcasini222ub17_ESO

Terrible performance in Cyrodiil

It’s probably a mixture but it all centers on performance. When performance and having checks is an issue it’s puzzling why sets like Dark Convergence even were thought up. easily the biggest culprit of slingshotting around the map on a push.

Shagreth

Terrible performance in Cyrodiil

ZeroDPS wrote: »

cant understand you and all other players who feels bad and sad when being ganked, I really having fun and respect when somebody ideally timed ganks me, yes I need to respawn and run again but this is a part of the game, it is fun, about lag agree 1000%

No, it's not fun when the game turns into Gankers Vs. Tanks. If you're not beefy as HELL -- you just evaporate before being able to react. It feels like playing Bad Company 2, only almost everyone is a sniper. Not fun.

xaraan

Terrible performance in Cyrodiil

Performance is ultimately the problem in Cyrodiil. Almost everyone I played with in PvP left the game b/c they just gave up on it getting fixed. Some are starting to return now that the performance is better (some have not b/c they moved on). Even with the horrible balance in the game, that was the breaking point for them.

That may change if performance stays decent, maybe they will get tired of the other problems.

Sarannah

You are missing the option: "PvP players themselves destroy PvP, and destroy the PvP population!"

PvP is a failed concept to begin with, as most PvP players will use/exploit anything they can. Even if it is by means permitted by the game. This isn't because they are PvP players, but this is because of the mindset that most PvPers have. PvPers have the mindset to want to be the best, and will do everything they can to feel like they are.
While players that play for fun, will more and more move away from that type of play. As they play to have fun. There is no way to step into PvP and actually have fun, because PvP players won't let you. Not saying PvP can't have fun moments, or that PvP players aren't helpful to others. But because of PvP players, most of the time PvP is only an 'I-don't-want-to-be-here-anymore'-fest for everyone else.

No amount of 'fixing' will ever change PvP to become actually fun to do, for players who do not have the PvP mindset. Every MMO thus far has proven this.

Wolfpaw

"Prime time weekend. EU campaigns are almost empty."

ZOS needs to region lock servers is why, no good reason having one popular NA server campaign open to all. NA Server should host clients sold: NA, SA, JP, & AU.

Bobargus

Broken meta and bad balance

In my opinion, as a vampire nightblade main, there isn't enough balance in the pvp scene of ESO.

Wolfpaw

Sarannah wrote: »

You are missing the option: "PvP players themselves destroy PvP, and destroy the PvP population!"

PvP is a failed concept to begin with, as most PvP players will use/exploit anything they can. Even if it is by means permitted by the game. This isn't because they are PvP players, but this is because of the mindset that most PvPers have. PvPers have the mindset to want to be the best, and will do everything they can to feel like they are.
While players that play for fun, will more and more move away from that type of play. As they play to have fun. There is no way to step into PvP and actually have fun, because PvP players won't let you. Not saying PvP can't have fun moments, or that PvP players aren't helpful to others. But because of PvP players, most of the time PvP is only an 'I-don't-want-to-be-here-anymore'-fest for everyone else.

No amount of 'fixing' will ever change PvP to become actually fun to do, for players who do not have the PvP mindset. Every MMO thus far has proven this.

PvP takes practice, just like end-game pve, & I see new PvP players join guilds/groups everyday that are willing to train and help. Some content in games can't be handed to you like overland and housing. You have to actually work and build for success.

Arthtur

I would say everything.

If performance is bad then whats the point of playing? Its just frustrating. Like, where is fun when u cant even use skills?

Instead of saying "Broken Meta and Balance" i would prefer to say that HOW ZOS balances things is the problem.
Lets use DKs as example. Before DK Love patch they were considered the worst. So finally ZOS buffed them while also buffing Charged and pushing hybrisation. And we have result of that on live.
So the most logical thing would be to tweak the numbers and try to balance the class. But what did ZOS? Nerfed it so much that is worse than before buffs. Why im saying this? Well...
How in world u want to have balance when the only thing happening is overnerfing the best class and overbuffing the worst one? Like...
I still remember when StamDen dominated PvP. Ppl were crying how strong he was. So where is StamDen now?
After that Necros were dominating. Now the last thing about them i saw was the fact that They need to use Harmony trait for burst with synergy from graveyard and that playing them is just from combo to combo. Where are those strong Necros that dominated PvP?
There were templars too. But They got overshadowed by DKs buffs and got some nerfs too.
Now we have the same situation with DKs. They were on top and ZOS did what They always do. We gonna see how it will look when things go live but i think that i know already whats gonna happen.

New content is kinda obvious. If they cant even add new BGs map i dont know what to say. Whats the problem of adding new map with each DLC Dungeons pack? They could just take some parts of dungeons and remade it to make it into arena. Of course its means more work but... There is no money for free right? And lets not talk about "special" PvP rewards that u can get without any PvP....

About causal side of things im gonna blame it a little. Like i dont have anything for ppl who prefer easy content but... when there are ppl saying that PvP should just die, that they should remove DLC dungeons and add more zones, that They should rework Cyrodill into PvE zone, that something is too hard, that They cant do trials because nobody wants DDs who deals 10k dps, "Play How u Want"... At some point its just too much. Not everything needs to be easy...


But overall my biggest problem is how ZOS balances things. Even in PvE... year ago We were still 100k-110k on parses. Now even in HI patch with CP nerfs StamSorc hit 138k.... i dont know what to even say.

And im saying this as PvE player.

Sarannah

Wolfpaw wrote: »

Sarannah wrote: »

You are missing the option: "PvP players themselves destroy PvP, and destroy the PvP population!"

PvP is a failed concept to begin with, as most PvP players will use/exploit anything they can. Even if it is by means permitted by the game. This isn't because they are PvP players, but this is because of the mindset that most PvPers have. PvPers have the mindset to want to be the best, and will do everything they can to feel like they are.
While players that play for fun, will more and more move away from that type of play. As they play to have fun. There is no way to step into PvP and actually have fun, because PvP players won't let you. Not saying PvP can't have fun moments, or that PvP players aren't helpful to others. But because of PvP players, most of the time PvP is only an 'I-don't-want-to-be-here-anymore'-fest for everyone else.

No amount of 'fixing' will ever change PvP to become actually fun to do, for players who do not have the PvP mindset. Every MMO thus far has proven this.

PvP takes practice, just like end-game pve, & I see new PvP players join guilds/groups everyday that are willing to train and help. Some content in games can't be handed to you like overland and housing. You have to actually work and build for success.

For PvP players it will look like that, and I'm not saying PvP does not require practice and motivation. But history has proven again and again in many games: Most players will move away from PvP. I get that is not what PvPers want to hear, but it is the truth.

MMO's in general are mostly PvE games, which mostly attract PvE players.

PS: Work and build for success, as you put it, is kind of countering the point of playing a 'game'.
PPS: Not saying ZOS shouldn't fix the issues plagueing PvP, or shouldn't add more PvP content.

Wolfpaw

Sarannah wrote: »

Wolfpaw wrote: »

Sarannah wrote: »

You are missing the option: "PvP players themselves destroy PvP, and destroy the PvP population!"

PvP is a failed concept to begin with, as most PvP players will use/exploit anything they can. Even if it is by means permitted by the game. This isn't because they are PvP players, but this is because of the mindset that most PvPers have. PvPers have the mindset to want to be the best, and will do everything they can to feel like they are.
While players that play for fun, will more and more move away from that type of play. As they play to have fun. There is no way to step into PvP and actually have fun, because PvP players won't let you. Not saying PvP can't have fun moments, or that PvP players aren't helpful to others. But because of PvP players, most of the time PvP is only an 'I-don't-want-to-be-here-anymore'-fest for everyone else.

No amount of 'fixing' will ever change PvP to become actually fun to do, for players who do not have the PvP mindset. Every MMO thus far has proven this.

PvP takes practice, just like end-game pve, & I see new PvP players join guilds/groups everyday that are willing to train and help. Some content in games can't be handed to you like overland and housing. You have to actually work and build for success.

For PvP players it will look like that, and I'm not saying PvP does not require practice and motivation. But history has proven again and again in many games: Most players will move away from PvP. I get that is not what PvPers want to hear, but it is the truth.

MMO's in general are mostly PvE games, which mostly attract PvE players.

PS: Work and build for success, as you put it, is kind of countering the point of playing a 'game'.

PPS: Not saying ZOS shouldn't fix the issues plagueing PvP, or shouldn't add more PvP content.

Going to have to agree to disagree.

ob1ken0bi

What if once you hit Overlord, you were only able to get into a campaign that only overlords were in...
Any build that allows someone to kill someone with 25K+ health in one shot (or multiple shots in one second) should be nerfed
Have a system that prevents people from cheating. Have heard from many people there is a way to get in so many actions in one time to instant kill or to somehow prevent the opponent from doing anything...I havent seen it myself and no idea how they do it but The PvPers I know have mentioned there are some who can cheat at PvP

I think if it was interesting for people to try it, they would but the toxic PvPers who prey on new players is a good way to just get people turned off on PvP. And I am not saying the dying part but its the aftermath...The taunting, making fun of them and broadcasting they just want them to go away... and for a overload lvl 2000 to brag they kill lvl 35 new to pvp is just sad...but they do it....and then wonder why population is low in PvP
They are mad there are so many events for PvEers but then also mad when PvP events come out...LOL

McTaterskins

FBS94 wrote: »

In my opinion, as a vampire nightblade main, there isn't enough balance in the pvp scene of ESO.

Fair. NB's shouldn't need to be practically forced to use things like Caluurion's to be effective.

In fact, the sad state of things is really the fact that if you want to be competitive, there's no real room for theorycraft. Yeah, sure, you can pull off some low MMR wins or take out some potatoes or PvE mains with an off build, but that's about it. As soon as that premade group or a bunch of enemies with even a sparsely sprinkled amount of decent meta equipped players in it show up, you're done.

It's a shame.

_adhyffbjjjf12

Sarannah wrote: »

You are missing the option: "PvP players themselves destroy PvP, and destroy the PvP population!"

PvP is a failed concept to begin with, as most PvP players will use/exploit anything they can. Even if it is by means permitted by the game. This isn't because they are PvP players, but this is because of the mindset that most PvPers have. PvPers have the mindset to want to be the best, and will do everything they can to feel like they are.
While players that play for fun, will more and more move away from that type of play. As they play to have fun. There is no way to step into PvP and actually have fun, because PvP players won't let you. Not saying PvP can't have fun moments, or that PvP players aren't helpful to others. But because of PvP players, most of the time PvP is only an 'I-don't-want-to-be-here-anymore'-fest for everyone else.

No amount of 'fixing' will ever change PvP to become actually fun to do, for players who do not have the PvP mindset. Every MMO thus far has proven this.

incorrect, GW2 has VERY successful PVP and WVW, and has embraced many of the callouts in the thread, and it is an absolute blast. E.g:

- Good performance : I'm often in 100 plus player fights with massive AOE (much more than ESO) with 0 issues, issues are never reported and its never mentioned in forum chat ever.
- Separate PVP and PVE skills. i.e a CC skills has a modified cooldown in PVP over PVE. Critical for balancing.
- Gear is taken out of the equation entirely in battlegrounds, everyone has access to curated stat sets, 0 power creep, No food, no Pots and everyone is automatically at max level so an even playing field for new players. As a result BG pops in seconds as there is no barrier for people to join new or return with no need to pick up the latest fad gear.
- Good quality visualisation of reward ladders and multiple layers of rewards. You are rewarded for playing, not just dailies.

This is not to say go play GW2, this is calling out if it can be done there, ZOS could do the same here if they had the will and were pressurised to do so.

Iron_Warrior

Broken meta and bad balance

In my eyes pvp has definitely failed, at least in my server. Last night i've gone to cyrodil and played for 15 min and got a little more than 9k ap, then i checked my ranking in the campaign and i was rank 204 in my alliance with only 9k ap. Now multiply that by 3 and you realise there are roughly 600 people in the server that played more than 15min pvp in the main campaign, to me that's the definition of "failed".

The main reason that i stopped playing pvp is the balance, i can go on and on about the problems but in short, a game that gets balance changes every 3 or 4 months and tries to balance both pvp and pve at the same time, can never be balanced and competetive.

Thecompton73

Broken meta and bad balance

Xinihp wrote: »

Constantly taking things away from PVE in oder to "balance" PVP puts me off PVP altogether.

That coupled with cheese metas, gank builds, ball zergs, etc. But I don't think you can fix that without giving PVP players a personality transplant. In any competitive "sport" if people CAN cheat or cheese to gain advantage, then 9 times out of 10 they will. I blame players for that just as much as ZOS.

But looking at things like Vampire mist form being straight DELETED from PVE, or cool sets like Thunderbug and other DPS tank builds being removed because people were cheesing in PVP, makes me just disappointed that game companies STILL refuse to balance these separately.

Or if they do, it seems only with a "hit it with a sledgehammer and forget it" level of investment.

Ummm Mist Form in PvP is functionally the same except for now turning off all recovery instead of just magic, how exactly does that make it responsible for it being changed in PvE to not reducing NPC damage? Blaming every undesirable change on PvP seems to be a favorite past time of PvE people.
In fact just as many, if not more, of those nerfs are a response to Dev concerns in how players are engaging with PvE content. Mist Form for example was being cheesed by full raids to skip the mechanics of a certain trial boss so it got hit with the nerf hammer. Most of the CP star nerfs, especially those dealing with damage and sustain boosts have been done to combat what ZOS calls "power creep" which is the ever increasing DPS people are pulling in PvE. 50-60K parses were considered top of the line a few years ago, now I see complaints in the forums that some classes can only do 115K while the top classes can hit 125-130K. This means a group with two high end damage dealers can burn a boss with 4 million health in 20 seconds, which trivializes even Vet DLC HM dungeon bosses so they are trying to rein that back by reducing damage stars by 4% in the upcoming patch.

Wolfpaw

_adhyffbjjjf12 wrote: »

Sarannah wrote: »

You are missing the option: "PvP players themselves destroy PvP, and destroy the PvP population!"

PvP is a failed concept to begin with, as most PvP players will use/exploit anything they can. Even if it is by means permitted by the game. This isn't because they are PvP players, but this is because of the mindset that most PvPers have. PvPers have the mindset to want to be the best, and will do everything they can to feel like they are.
While players that play for fun, will more and more move away from that type of play. As they play to have fun. There is no way to step into PvP and actually have fun, because PvP players won't let you. Not saying PvP can't have fun moments, or that PvP players aren't helpful to others. But because of PvP players, most of the time PvP is only an 'I-don't-want-to-be-here-anymore'-fest for everyone else.

No amount of 'fixing' will ever change PvP to become actually fun to do, for players who do not have the PvP mindset. Every MMO thus far has proven this.

incorrect, GW2 has VERY successful PVP and WVW, and has embraced many of the callouts in the thread, and it is an absolute blast. E.g:

- Good performance : I'm often in 100 plus player fights with massive AOE (much more than ESO) with 0 issues, issues are never reported and its never mentioned in forum chat ever.
- Separate PVP and PVE skills. i.e a CC skills has a modified cooldown in PVP over PVE. Critical for balancing.
- Gear is taken out of the equation entirely in battlegrounds, everyone has access to curated stat sets, 0 power creep, No food, no Pots and everyone is automatically at max level so an even playing field for new players. As a result BG pops in seconds as there is no barrier for people to join new or return with no need to pick up the latest fad gear.
- Good quality visualisation of reward ladders and multiple layers of rewards. You are rewarded for playing, not just dailies.

This is not to say go play GW2, this is calling out if it can be done there, ZOS could do the same here if they had the will and were pressurised to do so.

Such a great game, hope some day they bring to next gen

DigiAngel

Broken meta and bad balance

I'll give you a real life scenario that just happened about 30 minutes ago. I have been toying with a vampire/nightblade...initially for PvP, but finally settled on really just farming at speed. Still had all the PvP gear...it was setup to come out of stealth...vampire stage 2 or 3 for the extra bonus.

I'm not...super familiar with IC, but thought I'd be ok-ish in the sewers...at least close to the base. 10 minutes exploring around and doing ok (cp 1222) a different faction member, DK, stuns, whips, dead. Repeat that a few times...and I give up...again, still pretty close to the base.

I come back maybe...15 minutes later. No DK so cool...let's try this again. This time, a different faction member shows up...still close to the base. Luckily, creature were around, so I was able to shadow cloak skill out of there until I ran out of magicka...at which time this same MagDK had tracked me down and destroyed me. I switched back to my farm build/skills at the armory, decon'd all the gear...never to return to any sort of PvP with this character again.

So there. That's why. That's why PvP is/has and will continue to fail, to me at least. IT'S JUST NOT FUN ON YOUR OWN. I get it...you wanna be ruthless and relentless in combat..I really do get it. Makes no difference to the standard PvE-er just testing the waters of PvP....you insta kill someone enough times they give up. If I wanna get stunlocked and destroyed or ganked out of no-where, I'll reinstall PUBG.

The fact that you need a completely different set of skill and gear, while understandable as PvE threats are very different then PvP threats, is also another reason. Who wants to spend all that time leveling up new skills and golding out gear just to get rolled over by folks who have played PvP for years? Too much of a time sink for ultimately one reward: gold....it's just not worth it. And yes...I know you can rack up on AP...the same AP that is worth half the value of gold.

Nemeliom

PvP failed? Based on what? You?

I'm having a great experience in PvP, be it Cyrodiil, Imperial City or Battlegrounds.
Even more after the servers update.

Necrotech_Master

i dont think pvp has "failed" i still enjoy pvp now and then, more so cyro/IC than BGs

the rewards from BGs arent great, and some of the maps are just way too big for the game modes

if anything has been keeping people away, i would most definitely say its the performance issues that have been going on before the PC NA hardware refresh

those war tortes have been helping greatly to make progress towards higher ranks (almost to rank 37 now on one toon)

are there things that could be improved for pvp? sure absolutely, there are things i would even improve in the PVE side of things (like fishing), so every part of the game probably has some opinions on what could be improved

Mr_Stach

Broken meta and bad balance

I think there are 2 things that hurt PvP:

1. Performance
2. Balance

Even if the Balance was spot on (it's not) it doesn't matter if you can't actually play.

And the other side, even if Performance was spot on (also not) the Current Game Balance makes PvP a slog.

Then there's the activities, I think ESO actually have some pretty good activities, but it once again falls to the 2 pain points. If they can fix Balance and Fix Performance, I bet a lot more people would enjoy PvP.

EozZoe1989

Blame the casual direction of the ESO

the thing is could not pick anything else.. in poll so.. my idea why things are failing is because people are soloing also being mean .. not really wanting to to talk in zone or other, hardly anyone teaming up as teams its rare when i see it but the fact is.. people only play with people they trust.. or with bf or other..
forcing people is not the way but changing the game to group find.. things in delves.. and public Duggen's would be cool if only it starts off with one ,map.. then they can see if they like it.. alot people wont like change at start but.. with time they like it ..lol fact is yes its make too much of solo game..
and people got used to being over powered also .. so alot choose to solo..
there is people and streamers who are just human too who do play with people and its cool to see..
the fact thou the game has become so solo and introverted.. is sad..
events help with this .. and i feel as thou if there was mini events and seasonal events also holiday events this would help
crates and more drops.. crappy crates and buyable crates io call them . the crappy ones that have hardy anythign on them with brown dull crate with silver or gray crown that one.. i think that can get in twitch drops too.. could be used ion events and other things..
help people get jewels.. and let the Plainfield be equal.. at least we earning them in game ,.. yes there is a new crency to help get things in the store but is it helping to get everything in store no.. so jewels are good better even.. so please listern help us poor players .. also don't forget my voice is here but there is other social medias and pages groups on internet .. that are not apart this.. and can not vote..
so i feel if you made this form open too all..
then this would be a different story..

Parasaurolophus

Broken meta and bad balance

Nemeliom wrote: »

PvP failed? Based on what? You?

I'm having a great experience in PvP, be it Cyrodiil, Imperial City or Battlegrounds.
Even more after the servers update.

My judgment is based on very low population figures in the Cyrodiil and IC campaigns. If you play on NA then I can assume that there may be a surge in the population after due to the change of servers. Will have to check.

EmEm_Oh

No new content

Performance issues aside (they were getting better but seems like performance has been "nerfed" somewhat over the last few weeks), I'd say no new content. We've had several DLCs, but no additional areas to PvP. It's not that difficult to expand the area, imo. Bethesda is rolling around in cash. They should be able to create a PVP department.

Wolfpaw

Parasaurolophus wrote: »

Nemeliom wrote: »

PvP failed? Based on what? You?

I'm having a great experience in PvP, be it Cyrodiil, Imperial City or Battlegrounds.
Even more after the servers update.

My judgment is based on very low population figures in the Cyrodiil and IC campaigns. If you play on NA then I can assume that there may be a surge in the population after due to the change of servers. Will have to check.

Because EU players are pvp'n on NA server campaigns is my guess. Add server region client host restrictions, and watch your EU PvP popularity grow.

joseayalac

No new content

What are you talking about? PVP is one of the greatest aspects of this game. I just with that they released more content.

Battlegrounds are super fun when you know what you're doing and Imp City is a thrill when you've got a lot of Tel Var on you. Cyro can be can awesome place but can get boring if all you do is zerg.