Why PVP Failed?

Sylosi

It failed because it isn't very good. Most of the time it only provides dull, one sided, unengaging, low skilled PvP which beyond something to occasionally screw about in is not very enticing to anyone actually interested in PvP.

KitsuneShoujo

* Option 5: Other

PVP isn't as popular as devs and marketing gurus and promoters think it is.

EdmondDontes

Terrible performance in Cyrodiil

KitsuneShoujo wrote: »

* Option 5: Other

PVP isn't as popular as devs and marketing gurus and promoters think it is.

Exactly. PvP is FAR more popular than the devs and marketing team think it is. ....when it works properly.

buttaface

Blame the casual direction of the ESO

1. No simple-map, truly random (no teams unless in the team queue), "hop in" 4v4 arena. Played GW1 PvP for years up into high Gladiator Rank, and the nice thing about it was for working people and others with real lives, you could be in a game instantly, instaqueue, instaqueue, instaqueue, arena always full, matches took no more than ten minutes. Fun and done.
2. In line with the above, ESO PvP is laughably mismatched to the milieu of the game. There is no reason for an RVR PvP system to be as complex as Cyrodiil when there is no player/guild asset control over time. None. Should it have keeps and siege? Absolutely. Ginormous, too numerous keeps that were designed for the game to be primarily PvP years and years ago? NO. Trim that stuff WAY down. Should it be a flat plane? No. But it shouldn't also be a vast field of excessive terrain, structures, etc. Tone that stuff WAY down. But Cyro is way way overdone. It took them years to universally boost mount speed in Cyro for example, and they have yet to streamline several of the excessive aspects of their RvR. Draggy, slow, performance stalling, excessive detail in their RvR killed ESO PvP.
3. In line with the above, IC is the WORST PvP experience in ANY game I've played in 20 years of PvP, PvP leadership, GM/XO in large, competitive PvP guilds over the years, etc. Protip. If you expect people with gaming options and limited time to do your PvP, DON'T MAKE IT A DAMN MAZE to even get in the zone. Game over, uninstall, and on to better PvP options instantly, and that is what tens or hundreds of thousands of PvP loving players have done when faced with the "yuck" that is IC. Not to mention that ganks in IC have little risk, while those trying to LEARN the zone take ALL the risk of loss? Seriously? Why haven't they capped TelVar taken at TelVar currently holding? That is kindergarten game stuff, yet inexplicably never done in ESO. I stuck around for the casual aspects of ESO that it does well. But when I do PvP? I'm off to one of the many, many better options out there.
4. Until you nail down your "hop in" random arena, match your RvR to the game's milieu, and vastly oversimplify IC, don't even bother with other issues like balance. The PvP is already DOA right out of the gate and no need to try to polish a turd until.

EmEm_Oh

No new content

Sylosi wrote: »

It failed because it isn't very good. Most of the time it only provides dull, one sided, unengaging, low skilled PvP which beyond something to occasionally screw about in is not very enticing to anyone actually interested in PvP.

Would be nice if the rather open areas from going to keep to keep would have a random 5-10mil HP beast that would chase you to the next keep, where you'd have to siege it down with your faction.

FlopsyPrince

Sarannah wrote: »

You are missing the option: "PvP players themselves destroy PvP, and destroy the PvP population!"

PvP is a failed concept to begin with, as most PvP players will use/exploit anything they can. Even if it is by means permitted by the game. This isn't because they are PvP players, but this is because of the mindset that most PvPers have. PvPers have the mindset to want to be the best, and will do everything they can to feel like they are.
While players that play for fun, will more and more move away from that type of play. As they play to have fun. There is no way to step into PvP and actually have fun, because PvP players won't let you. Not saying PvP can't have fun moments, or that PvP players aren't helpful to others. But because of PvP players, most of the time PvP is only an 'I-don't-want-to-be-here-anymore'-fest for everyone else.

No amount of 'fixing' will ever change PvP to become actually fun to do, for players who do not have the PvP mindset. Every MMO thus far has proven this.

Some of us suck at PvP, but could handle playing with others who also suck. That would be more enjoyable than the constant ganking in the current system.

Nightwiish

Terrible performance in Cyrodiil

The title should be "Which one of these contributed the most to the failure on PvP in ESO".

You could argue that all of the options given contributed to the downfall of PvP in one way or another but to me the top reason is hands down server performance. Bad meta, broken classes, etc can all be dealt with if the game runs smooth even under intense load. Not being able to actually play the game is a death sentence.

dolphezious

For me, the fall of PvP is simply beacuse as a PvP player, im unable to get my hands on items I would need to be even competitive, namely monster sets (Magma, im looking at you) and also mythics (Death dealer fete). I am always a second rated player, beacuse every DLC I get, I always realize I will never ever get the new mythic and monster set items needed to be at least on par with other players, no matter how good I am in PvP. Its always that impossible wall of PvE content I am unable to ever do.

Sure, there is a golden vendor in Cyrodiil which actually surprises you with some hard vet dungeons head parts of the set, but the most of them are old and non useable. And ofc, the important ones dont even sell there - the best and useable ones are behind PvE hardcore veteraneing (is that even a word) the impossible dungeons (for instance, there was never ever a chance to buy Zaan head mask in like 5 years and counting, there was actually a chance to get Zaan shoulders ONCE in this entire time spawn - it will probably never be achievable to get the head, let alone something like magma incarnate head), which demand from me the entire social game, which then again includes handling discord, getting headphones, joining guilds etc etc, making a PvE toon,which is too much for me. It seems that always I want to get work done in this direction, the game places me 2 steps back. Its a funny feeling, but always present. Making one step forward, landing 2 steps backward.

I just want to play games for fun, I dont need a tedious IRL experience in something I do for fun. I already have my friends, my family , my job. I dont want to have these exact things in games also and invest my energy and time to live a parallel life making all that hard earned social status in a video game. And an actuall education to know how to use discord lol.

It would be actually really nice to be able to get those PvE items in a PVP way. I dont care how. But let me get them as a PvP player by playing PvP.

At this point, I am actually thinking to pay to someone who would use my account and do these tedious dungeon runs, namely to get Magma incarnate for me. I love PVP very much,I want to play it. Eso Pvp. Not any other PvP game. But its always that frustrating feeling knowing im 2nd rated player just beacuse I am unable to get the items I need to be on par.

So, is there any candidate who would finish vet. dread cellar for me,and get the magma set? Price would be negotiable ofc.

Parasaurolophus

Broken meta and bad balance

[snip] Reason - oakensoul ring. What is it like in pvp now?

[edited for thread bumping]

mague

[X] Other

Cyrodiil worked quite well for a very long time. It was open and wild. Now the players are on rails like they are on the daily dungeon quest.

I dont see any fail though

Jpk0012

Broken meta and bad balance

Parasaurolophus wrote: »

[snip] Reason - oakensoul rung. What is it like in pvp now?

Well if you don't have it then you're probably not going to PvP. Meaning PvP gets even slower than it already is. There is no way I am PvP until I am able to get this.

[edited to remove quote]

Rowjoh

Broken meta and bad balance

PVP hasn't actually failed otherwise it wouldn't still be there.

But it's not a good experience.

The reason anything is really poor (or ultimately fails) is rarely singular so in no particulur order, PVP is nowhere near as good as it could and should be because:

• Balance is appalling. 'Immortal' builds are more commonplace than ever before.
• Bad performance issues affect outcomes.
• No deterent whatsoever to night capping.
• The Hammer mechanic almost always punishes the last placed, least populated weakest alliance.
  

All these things conspire to put both new and experienced players off PVP, which obviously isn't healthty for the game and the business.

JD2013

Lol "blame the casual direction of ESO".

ESO has always been a casual game right since the beginning, and any attempt to say otherwise is silly.

Craglorn adventure zone - harder than others - failed as a concept.

Trials - I would say less than half of the player base actually do these.

Dungeons - people have been clamouring for story versions of dungeons for years now, again, because a lot of people don't like grouping up and doing content.

And then we come to PvP. The player base for this has been in decline for years. In the beginning, people did it because it used to be fun. Now it is just balls and zergs of players running around together killing another zerg. There's no strategy, there's no big aims beyond siege the hell out of whatever keep is nearest. It is just not fun. This is also because of terrible performance, undeniably. But the player base for PvP is probably less than 20% of the total players, probably less going by how wmpty the campaigns are most of the time.

Again, people have been asking for a PvE Cyrodiil for years, because they just don't enjoy it.

People play ESO for the questing and stories. For the lore. For the cosmetics, for housing. It is an online RPG first, everything else second. The devs know this. Hell, I am willing to bet even Battlegrounds are more popular than Cyrodiil.

ESO is never and will never be a hardcore MMO. IN PvP or PvE. The overland content is very very easy and casual, and the devs see their biggest player population and go for that. The concept of hardcore MMO is mostly a dead concept, and people who think they want punishing mechanics or big lots of PvP soon leave MMO's when they get what they want and they become a ghost town.

ESO has been kept alive for so long for two reasons - one, it's Elder Scrolls. And since Morrowind, ES games have never been hard. They have never had PvP or group dungeons or trials. People play it like it is an Elder Scrolls game. It has also stayed alive for so long by catering to the biggest part of the players. The players who play it for the reasons stated. They keep it going.

Should they abandon PvP? No, of course not. I myself have enjoyed playing around in Imperial City and Cyrodiil. But that doesn't mean it is ever going to be a hardcore PvP MMO.

Parasaurolophus

Broken meta and bad balance

JD2013 wrote: »

Lol "blame the casual direction of ESO".

ESO has always been a casual game right since the beginning, and any attempt to say otherwise is silly.

Craglorn adventure zone - harder than others - failed as a concept.

Trials - I would say less than half of the player base actually do these.

Dungeons - people have been clamouring for story versions of dungeons for years now, again, because a lot of people don't like grouping up and doing content.

And then we come to PvP. The player base for this has been in decline for years. In the beginning, people did it because it used to be fun. Now it is just balls and zergs of players running around together killing another zerg. There's no strategy, there's no big aims beyond siege the hell out of whatever keep is nearest. It is just not fun. This is also because of terrible performance, undeniably. But the player base for PvP is probably less than 20% of the total players, probably less going by how wmpty the campaigns are most of the time.

Again, people have been asking for a PvE Cyrodiil for years, because they just don't enjoy it.

People play ESO for the questing and stories. For the lore. For the cosmetics, for housing. It is an online RPG first, everything else second. The devs know this. Hell, I am willing to bet even Battlegrounds are more popular than Cyrodiil.

ESO is never and will never be a hardcore MMO. IN PvP or PvE. The overland content is very very easy and casual, and the devs see their biggest player population and go for that. The concept of hardcore MMO is mostly a dead concept, and people who think they want punishing mechanics or big lots of PvP soon leave MMO's when they get what they want and they become a ghost town.

ESO has been kept alive for so long for two reasons - one, it's Elder Scrolls. And since Morrowind, ES games have never been hard. They have never had PvP or group dungeons or trials. People play it like it is an Elder Scrolls game. It has also stayed alive for so long by catering to the biggest part of the players. The players who play it for the reasons stated. They keep it going.

Should they abandon PvP? No, of course not. I myself have enjoyed playing around in Imperial City and Cyrodiil. But that doesn't mean it is ever going to be a hardcore PvP MMO.

Well, you brought up the topic of casual overland here. OK...

Gythral

All of the above, plus poor server/datacentre choices

KingArthasMenethil

Terrible performance in Cyrodiil

JD2013 wrote: »

Lol "blame the casual direction of ESO".

ESO has always been a casual game right since the beginning, and any attempt to say otherwise is silly.

Craglorn adventure zone - harder than others - failed as a concept.

Craglorn failed not because of difficulty but because they gave zero incentive for people to group up in a MMO as the quests weren't repeatable and the rewards weren't good so it killed any chance of a social aspect to Craglorn and made it a pain for new people who were looking to do Craglorn. And ZoS has not been good at the social aspect in this game.

KingArthasMenethil

Terrible performance in Cyrodiil

As a person who does a little bit of PvE and PvP
For PvP being "Dead" there's multiple reasons but I feel the major one is performance which goes back to the an update in which they did something with lighting if my memory is working. Performance was what originally made me stop PvPing back when Wabbajack was a campaign.

Another is balance and how they balance because to me it's silly they don't tie more things to battle spirit or at least explained why they can't or won't. Also how certain sets that were made to combat zergs were allowed in Battlegrounds which imo was bad decision.

Another is lack of updates as it has been a very long time since they've done anything of value for Warzone Cyrodiil and Battlegrounds.
Also anyone remember the mess with Cheat Engine? When that exploded and there was just alot of in your face cheating.

Raammzzaa

Terrible performance in Cyrodiil

I play and have fun in Cyrodiil nearly every night in a pop locked campaign. So I’m not sure by what measure I could say it “failed”. That said, is it frustrating sometimes - heck yes.

Performance in Cyrodiil has been an issue as far back as I can recall. I suspect a significant improvement would bring population back to the game.

cyclonus11

Terrible performance in Cyrodiil

Laaaaggg. That's all. I'd probably be PVPing every day if performance wasn't ****.

EdmondDontes

Terrible performance in Cyrodiil

PvP is failing because of broken out of balance OP sets like Dark Convergence, Oakensoul and ridiculously low population caps where there aren't enough solo players to compete against the radically OP ball groups running the above listed sets.

Aardappelboom

No new content

PVP is a lot of fun for me, I'm one of those guys still playing BG and even joining Imperial city for a night of PVP fun, it's addictive, I love building for it and trying stuff out.

In the end, the problem is learning curve, I started by hating PVP, then getting better and eventually loved it and played it for about a year, I hear the same story from a lot of players.

While I agree that performance is at fault, making brand new content, a fresh start, would be the way to go, Cyrodiil is still fun for me, if they can turn it around: great, but everyone tried it and people's minds are made up, so it's time for something new and exciting.

I hate to see "broken meta" getting high votes, while feelings are facts and it proves this is how people feel, I fail to acknowledge this, I never used a "meta" build and I still do well tbh. The entire idea of one meta is just bogus. ESO PVP has a lot to do with positioning, knowing your class, skills and playstyle, finding what clicks and going for it.

Builds are definitely worth something but a good build is worthless if you can't play it, people who get high scores are people who know their build through and through.

DrNukenstein

It failed for the same reason high end PVE failed (I'd wager the high end PVE community is even smaller than the active PVP community)

The game does not prepare you for the end game on the way to CP160, at all. Which really is a shame since this is the smash bros melee of MMOs combat-wise while skill choice and itemization are deep enough to have their own text book.

francesinhalover

Terrible performance in Cyrodiil

hopefully pvp fails soon because pve keeps getting butchered because of it.
At this point i just wish both game modes were seperate, perhapes it would help the server too. but one can only dream.

MidniteOwl1913

Broken meta and bad balance

DigiAngel wrote: »

I'll give you a real life scenario that just happened about 30 minutes ago. I have been toying with a vampire/nightblade...initially for PvP, but finally settled on really just farming at speed. Still had all the PvP gear...it was setup to come out of stealth...vampire stage 2 or 3 for the extra bonus.

I'm not...super familiar with IC, but thought I'd be ok-ish in the sewers...at least close to the base. 10 minutes exploring around and doing ok (cp 1222) a different faction member, DK, stuns, whips, dead. Repeat that a few times...and I give up...again, still pretty close to the base.

I come back maybe...15 minutes later. No DK so cool...let's try this again. This time, a different faction member shows up...still close to the base. Luckily, creature were around, so I was able to shadow cloak skill out of there until I ran out of magicka...at which time this same MagDK had tracked me down and destroyed me. I switched back to my farm build/skills at the armory, decon'd all the gear...never to return to any sort of PvP with this character again.

So there. That's why. That's why PvP is/has and will continue to fail, to me at least. IT'S JUST NOT FUN ON YOUR OWN. I get it...you wanna be ruthless and relentless in combat..I really do get it. Makes no difference to the standard PvE-er just testing the waters of PvP....you insta kill someone enough times they give up. If I wanna get stunlocked and destroyed or ganked out of no-where, I'll reinstall PUBG.

The fact that you need a completely different set of skill and gear, while understandable as PvE threats are very different then PvP threats, is also another reason. Who wants to spend all that time leveling up new skills and golding out gear just to get rolled over by folks who have played PvP for years? Too much of a time sink for ultimately one reward: gold....it's just not worth it. And yes...I know you can rack up on AP...the same AP that is worth half the value of gold.

Yes! And in Cyrodiil it all riding riding riding to get somewhere and then BAM, dead. An hour spent and nothing to show for it. Or try doing dallies, just standing there turning in the quest. BAM, dead, out of nowhere. So I'm done.

Lumsdenml

Terrible performance in Cyrodiil

I say performance, but that seems to be fixed now on pcna....

EdmondDontes

Terrible performance in Cyrodiil

francesinhalover wrote: »

hopefully pvp fails soon because pve keeps getting butchered because of it.
At this point i just wish both game modes were seperate, perhapes it would help the server too. but one can only dream.

How would you feel if all the PvP players were running around demanding that PvE be eliminated from the game?

spartaxoxo

Terrible performance in Cyrodiil

Overpowered items or bad metas are a part of every online game. They aren't going to kill a game where the basic gameplay is fun. There will always be a flavor of the month to complain about. But poor performance, bad basic gameplay and lack of content are always killers.

Edit: And ESO is guilty of all three. Regardless of the particular item that's being complained about at the moment, like most MMOs they generally allow all gear to be worn into pvp. This creates an environment where new and casual players are defeated by a spreadsheet before they've ever actually even entered into battle. This is why popular pvp games tend to have matchmaking and don't allow variances so extreme that the player's individual prowess outside of gear doesn't matter. MMOs as a genre are held back by this archaic design for pvp. People generally want to win or lose based off how they perform that match, not based off what they farmed. It's something that makes MMO pvp more niche than say a shooter, in general. ESO also takes this design to extremes. But it could still at least be more popular within the game and genre itself if performance wasn't so poor and it got regular content. It doesn't do that either.

Iselin

Blame the casual direction of the ESO

I think it's pretty clear with the premier event rewards, the things that cost exorbitant amounts at guild vendors and the insane proliferation of styles and motifs that this game morphed into Elder Scrolls Barbie and her Houses Online because obviously there's more money in that.

Everything else related to PvP and its performance is way down the priority list.

James-Wayne

Terrible performance in Cyrodiil

Performance is the only reason but until Oceania gets their own server then performance will never change because rebuilding the game systems will never change ping rate.

deejayvee

Terrible performance in Cyrodiil

Rowjoh wrote: »

• No deterent whatsoever to night capping.

So the whole world is supposed to stop playing when you go to bed?