Why PVP Failed?

baltic1284

Blame the casual direction of the ESO

Why on my end isn't an option and it is the Toxicity of the PvP community they blame the casuals the PVE and everything on the planet but their own toxicity as to why when i see a PvP player actually say I am a part of the problem and need to change how I play to be more inviting to other players then that will be a step in the right direction.
Haven't seen that yet happen and probably never will

Danikat

For me personally Cyrodiil is too big and battlegrounds are too small.

I've never been a fan of the small team PvP style used in battlegrounds. Running around a little pen killing (and being killed by) the same people over and over until the game decides your time is up isn't fun to me. It's too obviously tiny and repetitive and feels pointless.

Whereas I like the idea of Cyrodiil - big groups using tactics and siege weaponry to attack and defend objectives, claiming territory for your alliance, the variety between battles around different objectives and between groups in the open. But in practice the majority of time is spent getting to an objective, then a little bit of fighting (although too often the battle is decided before it starts when one side sees they're out numbered) then back to making your way to a new objective. It's a lot of waiting/preparing to have fun with not a lot of actual activity in between.

Between the two I'd rather play PvP in other games and stick to PvE in ESO.

Xinihp

Broken meta and bad balance

Thecompton73 wrote: »

Ummm Mist Form in PvP is functionally the same except for now turning off all recovery instead of just magic, how exactly does that make it responsible for it being changed in PvE to not reducing NPC damage?

Mist Form is a bad example, I'll grant you. The recent round of DPS tanking sets being completely gutted however IS directly due to PVP meta. I personally enjoyed building DPS tanks in solo PVE. That option is now largely taken away. But I don't really blame PVP players wanting to survive longer while still feeling strong.

We are not on opposing sides here. This is the same old tired debate that rages between PVP and PVE players factionalizing into tribes and blaming each other for what they have lost, fighting a pointless battle amongst themselves when the REAL problem has been game companies not devoting the time/resources to balancing PVE and PVP abilities/gear separately all along.

It makes no sense for PVE and PVP players to be at odds over this. We are both customers, and we both just want to enjoy the game the way we enjoy it. If things were balanced separately we could. It is only when we have things taken away that we enjoy that we look to blame others.

But ultimately PVP players didn't take away PVE DPS tanking sets, and PVE players didn't take anything away from PVP. It is simply a function of quarterly profit and investment calculations that take place outside any of our influence.

Rex-Umbra

No new content

PvP has not failed it's just a little stale after so long with no new content.

StShoot

Terrible performance in Cyrodiil

Sarannah wrote: »

You are missing the option: "PvP players themselves destroy PvP, and destroy the PvP population!"

PvP is a failed concept to begin with, as most PvP players will use/exploit anything they can. Even if it is by means permitted by the game. This isn't because they are PvP players, but this is because of the mindset that most PvPers have. PvPers have the mindset to want to be the best, and will do everything they can to feel like they are.
While players that play for fun, will more and more move away from that type of play. As they play to have fun. There is no way to step into PvP and actually have fun, because PvP players won't let you. Not saying PvP can't have fun moments, or that PvP players aren't helpful to others. But because of PvP players, most of the time PvP is only an 'I-don't-want-to-be-here-anymore'-fest for everyone else.

No amount of 'fixing' will ever change PvP to become actually fun to do, for players who do not have the PvP mindset. Every MMO thus far has proven this.

First and foremost that Mindset you described is not unique to pvp Players. The last time i checked alcasts webside nearly all of his builds were using the same 2 sets. Why ? because those two sets are the meta and even players who dont have the "I AVE TO BE DA BEST" Mindset will use those two sets because they will give the best dps, which allows weaker players to complete harder content. The only difference between PvP and PvE is the fact that PvE largly allows you to ignore those kind of players, while Cyro forces you to deal with them.
This is also not specific to Eso you can find it in every other game out there. Players who like competition will find a way to compete, even in pve games.
So how can that be fixed ? It cant, atleast not for cyro, since it is an open world pvp and every attempt to control it will destroy it. However they could attempt to fix the problem in Bgs by introducing a leaderboard (you get MMR if you win and you loose some if you loose) with diffrent leagues (bronze to gold etc.). That would allow players who want to play casually to play with each others while "tryhards" can compete for the higher placements. Of course you will have trolls and smurfs but you have that in every other Game.

But in the end i dont think the Mindset is the Problem with cyrodiil, not every content is suited for every player and for a long time there were enaugh players with the "right" Mindset to fill the campaigns. I think its mix of all the points the OP mentioned, lags and the lack of new meaningfull content are allready frustrating enaugh. But PvP players had to also adapt their builds with every new patch because of the sledgehammer nerfs. And on top of that we have poor ballance decisions for PvP sets. The most prominent are probably vicious death and Dark Convergence, two sets that were ment as a tool against large groups of players (and ballgroups) but nowadys are mostly used by those groups.

jle30303

For me the worst things about PVP are:

(Cyrodiil) Distance.
(Imp City) Loss of Tel Var, especially to a person who is not carrying any and therefore risks nothing by fighting you.
(Both) Performance.

Jaimeh

Terrible performance in Cyrodiil

I don't mind bad balancing, although it does hurt to play a class that's under-performing, but at the end of the day I'd rather play the class I want rather than what the meta dictates. Besides, an experienced player will do well in their class of choice regardless even if it's lacking in damage for a given patch. What I do mind is constant balance changes, and it's the same with PvE: for years now every patch things turn on their heads, and if you are slow to make your build, like me, by the time you finish the farming, a new shinier thing rolls out, and it gets really tiresome. But even more that the balance roller-coaster ride, what makes PvP unenjoyable is poor performance. In PvE it's not a deal breaker, because you can complete content even while casting a skill every 10 seconds, and even if you lag and freeze, you'll most likely still be alive when the game becomes responsive again. That's not the case with PvP: when a skill fails to cast, when you can't heal, dodge, break-free or even move, these can all cause a wipe. Besides combat and survival, not being able to have responsive gameplay feels like there is no point to playing, after all what good is a game when you can't actually play it? And because pressing skill x on exactly time y is at the crux of PvP, performance is really important and what ruins all enjoyment of it.

OnThaLoose

Terrible performance in Cyrodiil

For me? It was the performance in Cyrodiil (not being able to use skills, rubber banding, dying in 1 second when death recap shows multiple skills all on global cooldown from one person) and then the horse-riding simulator just to get back to the fight (ESP if I'm on a newer toon without maxed horse training). Waste of time in my eyes. I hate Cyrodiil.

Battlegrounds, however, I usually find to be quite enjoyable. The only time I don't have fun in BG's if when I'm queuing solo and get wrecked doing the objective because my other three teammates don't understand objective based gameplay. Or I run into an opposing team that appears to be a stacked group (even though I'm in the solo queue). But for the most part, I enjoy BG's. I just wish they would do more with BG's. More maps, more rewards, etc.

xDeusEJRx

Blame the casual direction of the ESO

Casual direction lead to pretty much the downfall of this game's pvp in every aspect.

Balance went to crap because they can't balance anything (hence the random warden CC nerf even though wardens aren't even a problem when it comes crowd controlling)

Proc meta where procs pretty much run most of pvp and ZOS has no intention of discontinuing the proc cycle, which is gradually destroying balance even more and drastically shifting the power floor and ceiling because they keep making procs stronger and stronger every year.

Also making zergs more stronger with proc sets didn't help either, dark convergence, hrothgar, PB, etc were used by zergs more than the people they were supposed to be used by (people who wipe zerg groups) making pvp less fun because you get yanked and desynced continuously.

I don't think lag killed pvp, everything else did. People are still playing and complaining about lag for multiple years but PVP hasn't died yet, the reason people are quitting is because it's laggy and the PVP is just not fun to play because of the direction pvp has been going.
Not only can you not play because lag and skill delay, the constant meta changes and gear shifts and new OP proc sets released makes it hard to keep up when the game is so different in a matter of 1-3 months time

deleted220614-000183

Blame the casual direction of the ESO

They can't ballance anyhing because it is TOO MUCH WORK.
Did you expected anything else from the game where after years a minimap is not implemented in GUI so everybody on PC platform uses some 3rd party GUI ?
I call it ignorance.
I don't know, what more they expected from the community.
Skyim was horrible mess untill it was fixed by community.

What about ESO PVP? They got feedback, they decided do it own way, they failed so they just decided ban CYRO and PVP from Twitch. I think it explains the situation the best.

Cuwen

ResidentContrarian wrote: »

When gear is playing the game, there is little reason to play.

Most outcomes are decided exclusively through gear, and the tank meta thanks to numerous CP stars, ZOS ignoring feedback, etc. is a joke.

And it's clear what sets are the issue since everyone is using them: rallying cry, vate 2h, pariah, malacath, that mythic on the PTS that gives every buff you can ever want (soon to be an issue and kill PvP for sure), etc.

These items are not balanced in any way, shape, or form, when they:

1. Have no replacement
2. Are literally BETTER copies of the same 5-piece effect of other sets (lol don't get me started on that mythic)
3. Ultimately all increase damage, survivability, etc. with little trade-off
4. When combined, all the unbalanced gear cannot be competed with on any build besides ones running the same exact gear

And we're just talking about gear that everyone knows and ignoring bugs that aren't talked about like iron blood and pain refuge, and all the other interactions that are buggy and/or OP in ways they shouldn't be.

We don't even need to talk about classes yet, because the gear is such an issue!

Also, siege is a meme!

This completely. That and lag. I'm sorry, but if you can just get a set to play for you, like dark convergence and plague break, what is the point of PVP, then? I want to play against a team that is good at PVP, not just using sets. That gets rid of the fun.

Cuwen

KaGaOri wrote: »

It's lethal combo of two things in my opinion:

"Broken meta and bad balance" for casuals and elder scolls RPG fans
There is no casual / beginner friendly PvP, everyone goes directly into the deep end. You get one-shot over and over by experienced players with meta build and meta gear. Have to be strong as a player, have high level character of the right class and farmed all the right gear before PvP becomes fun and not source of frustration. People won't want to do it all first if the whole concept of PvP wasn't that apealing to them in the first place.

"Terrible performance in Cyrodiil" for those who actually like and want to PvP
Loosing to the lag and bugs instead of other players is no fun and game turning into slideshow of still images is even less fun. ZOS refusing to acknowledge the "elefant in the room" and devise realistic plan how to remedy it makes thing worse.

Will only PvP when there's event going. Performance is usually good and both IC and Cyrodiil is full of average schmoes, like me. Still will lose fights, but by an inch, not a mile and even win now and then.

U/50 used to be a beginner area. I liked playing there because I liked helping new players, and it was actually about skill. Now they've introduced the IC monster sets that make it very frustrating for new players, and vet groups are now coming in and ball grouping over everyone to get the EMP achievement due to account-wide achievements.

Brrrofski

I mean, it's all of them.

Performance is probably the major one

Balance and meta is big too. Balance will always be an issue, but I don't think it's a BIG deal here. It's mainly metas. We go from crazy patch to crazy patch. Something is always stupidly broken that just ruins it for 3-6 months.

Content is a bit of an issue too. I think they fail to make the content they did bring stay relevant. Imperial City is RIPE for good PvP, IF it was made relevant. But there's no incentive. And the flip flopping for rules and modes and playlists for BGs is ridiculous.

And yeh, the casual direction of the game doesn't help. They seem stuck on this dungeon pack, chapter, dungeon pack, small zone. So they won't pull one or those for a PvP focussed update.

ceiron

tsaescishoeshiner wrote: »

It's a huge leap to say that PvP "failed" as opposed to just saying it has problems, like it always has.

I think a better question would be like "What's your biggest gripe with PvP?" or "What do you think mainly keeps PvP from being better?"

Agree.

It hasn't failed until there's no one left complaining about it.

Is enough pvp gear constantly being added to traders and pvpers wanting new build options etc

So pvp is still alive and thriving despite the issues.

I think as much constructive help given as possible from the players rather then the pessimistic posts constantly.

Zos might be able to focus on something then rather then constantly on the defensive.

OnThaLoose

Terrible performance in Cyrodiil

Cuwen wrote: »

ResidentContrarian wrote: »

When gear is playing the game, there is little reason to play.

Most outcomes are decided exclusively through gear, and the tank meta thanks to numerous CP stars, ZOS ignoring feedback, etc. is a joke.

And it's clear what sets are the issue since everyone is using them: rallying cry, vate 2h, pariah, malacath, that mythic on the PTS that gives every buff you can ever want (soon to be an issue and kill PvP for sure), etc.

These items are not balanced in any way, shape, or form, when they:

1. Have no replacement
2. Are literally BETTER copies of the same 5-piece effect of other sets (lol don't get me started on that mythic)
3. Ultimately all increase damage, survivability, etc. with little trade-off
4. When combined, all the unbalanced gear cannot be competed with on any build besides ones running the same exact gear

And we're just talking about gear that everyone knows and ignoring bugs that aren't talked about like iron blood and pain refuge, and all the other interactions that are buggy and/or OP in ways they shouldn't be.

We don't even need to talk about classes yet, because the gear is such an issue!

Also, siege is a meme!

This completely. That and lag. I'm sorry, but if you can just get a set to play for you, like dark convergence and plague break, what is the point of PVP, then? I want to play against a team that is good at PVP, not just using sets. That gets rid of the fun.

Forgive my ignorance, but isn’t that the point of no cp/no proc campaigns? Or is that not a thing anymore? Admittedly, I haven’t been to cyrodiil in a very long time.

Ishtarknows

Terrible performance in Cyrodiil

All of the above, but server performance is the main gripe I hear most often

Khenarthi

I have no special interest in PvP because I play ESO for the Elder Scrolls stories and exploration, maybe that is the same reason for many other players too.

I mean, I PvP occasionally, but it's mostly during midyear mayhem when AP is double. Otherwise, I find my time better applied elsewhere.

S0Z0H

Terrible performance in Cyrodiil

Talk of server upgrades and fixes for years and years but no real actions made. With all the time alliances have to put in to succeed , for it to be constantly flushed down the toilet due to the extremely outdated server hardware.
This discourages not only hard core vet players but it completely destroys the New Players hopes. And as a result these new players stop logging in and delete the game

Cuwen

OnThaLoose wrote: »

Forgive my ignorance, but isn’t that the point of no cp/no proc campaigns? Or is that not a thing anymore? Admittedly, I haven’t been to cyrodiil in a very long time.

There are no proc campaigns, but it seems like in those, the faction balance is so bad. I've tried those a few months ago, but it was always one faction wailing on the other 2, and the other 2 factions gave up for the campaign. Nothing to do. I guess I can go back now and check it out, now that severs are performing slightly better and some older, good pvp players are coming back.

Solariken

Broken meta and bad balance

Cyro became unplayable for me years ago. A new golden age emerged when we had deathmatch-only BG's. Now we're in the dark ages again. It feels like ZOS just doesn't want people playing PVP in their game.

xiphactinus

I think I would pvp again if I had a polymorph of a kangaroo that hid werewolf form.

madmidwestmark

Blame the casual direction of the ESO

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

Ragnarok0130 wrote: »

most people that I've met in any MMOs' PVP who aren't gankers don't like to be ganked because there's no counter play, you're basically being sucker killed without the ability to fight back and people find that frustrating. It's the same reason people rage in FPSs at corner campers, there was no skill involved; it was all lie in wait and surprise the guy with no opportunity to fight back. It turns out that when people play "player vs player" they want to be able to engage the other player and not just die in a way that feels cheap.

Tbh. It feels more frustrating when I die to a ball group. I can not recall when was the last time I died to a single ganker with a "one-shot". For the most part even vs ganker there is a counter-play. If you die with a one-shot to a single player, then you are doing something wrong or maybe you need to change something in your build.

When it comes to ball group - it feels like they have the power to turn off your mouse & keyboard for a couple of seconds. Even breaking free doesn't work. You just helplessly sit in the AOE with a triple CC with de-synced health bar & full stamina bar, being hit by things that game did not even rendered yet lol.

Pretty fair /S lol

Yep. It's not just the ball groups tho. I've had just a 2 or 3 man drop cc's and ults, freezing everything and then you die, or the player next to you, then you die too. They need to remove immovable pots, snow treaders changed to reduce snaring (not stopping all roots) and make purge a mechanic to reduce DOTs. Also, make harmony add 1000 damage per ring trait in gold. For a 1000 pt extra in pve (1500 dmg pvp). Nothing more bs than a necro dropping their own synergy skill, pulling you with a non-cool down cc set, dropping an ult that stuns and then blowing up everyone with a graveyard synergy because of vd (or pb). Add a nb and/or sorc for another cc and possibly a negate.....just gets worse.

KiltMaster

I don't think pvp has failed so much as there's more of a learning curve and it requires more practice than pve and overland content.

I mean, you're not fighting npcs ... you're fighting people who, often, spend a lot of time working on builds and practicing and dueling.

It's not for everyone, but I think it's a stretch to say it "failed"

madmidwestmark

Blame the casual direction of the ESO

KiltMaster wrote: »

I don't think pvp has failed so much as there's more of a learning curve and it requires more practice than pve and overland content.

I mean, you're not fighting npcs ... you're fighting people who, often, spend a lot of time working on builds and practicing and dueling.

It's not for everyone, but I think it's a stretch to say it "failed"

It's failing to keep players or entice new players. Population is so low that it's making faction imbalance a big factor in when or if people play.

ThreeXB

Terrible performance in Cyrodiil

1st - Population cap reductions over the years has been horrible for PVP guild and Cyrodiils health. Started at 2000 and now all the way down to about 300. There used to be battle markers all over the map and now everyone usually runs to the 1 or 2 battle markers. Large battles were against 100's and 100's of players and now a very small fraction.

2nd - When the groups got cut from 24 to 12 I saw a big decrease in player and PVP guild involvement.

drsalvation

Broken meta and bad balance

I think it's the whole game design.
You don't get better as a player, you grind for better gear and let the game play itself.
You can be doing all the right things as a person with a controller, but if your numbers don't add up, nothing you do will matter, and best you can do is hide behind walls and use seige weapons while those who DO have the correct gear do all the killing. I say 'correct' because unfortunately, that's what this is. Along the whole list of players using meta and min/max builds, you can either do the same and equip the correct gear, or equip the gear you think is fun and not be productive at all in PvP.

But despite that, I don't think that's the root problem, but rather the integration between PvP and PvE.
There's so much worthless PvE only gear that people don't know will only nerf them in PvP, there's so many skills that are worthless in PvP, however, you need to grind PvE for the best PvP outcome.

Fallout 76 had a PvP mode, and I think ESO should follow the same idea, where the only thing that transfers from PvE to PvP is your avatar and cosmetics. No weapons nor armor.
In ESO's case, I think it should be more direct with what it wants.
Directly exclude some skills from PvE and others from PvP. If that seems crazy to you, just remember that Mist Form went through that and is now a PvP skill alone (no dmg reduction whatsoever in PvE).

Also, gear shouldn't be your ticket to win, it should be something that improves one of your favorite aspects by a small amount. I don't think any gear should give you more than 100 weapon or spell damage combined. But yet, having the correct set can give you around 800 to over 1k (especially with 2 sets... like moon hunter + clever alchemist)
Not only that, but your gear shouldn't cast skills for you for free... I'm talking about dark convergence of course, but there are so many other sets that cast skills for free. Why aren't we getting new classes or race ultimates that cast those gear skills? Dark Convergence could've been an expensive ultimate racial skill, the current version as the base skill, and the pre-nerf version as a morph. And then the dark convergence armor set would be worn to make that ultimate stronger, or cheaper to cast (and if you're not using that ult, then you're wasting a set).

This game's PvP isn't one where you can git gud by trial and error, by learning from your mistakes, it's one where you need to spend countless hours researching what's the correct gear you need to grind for in order to be able to somewhat challenge another player.

There hasn't been a single instance on this game where I felt it was my own fault that I lost. It always feels like it's my gear's fault, because I did everything right with the gamepad, but there's no way I could switch gear in the middle of a fight.

For Honor is a punishing game against pros, but every time I face one, I can actually learn and try better without needing to grind for better gear, and the gear sets you obtain from there are some added benefits, but none of the benefits are very noticeable. Of course, ESO is not for honor.
But as long as PvP remains unfair, it will be a declining steep.

AvalonRanger

Broken meta and bad balance

ZOS make new set equipment or mythic as meta balance tuning tools in the both PVE and PVP.
[snip] Should concentrate environment game gimmick and level design
, or developing better NPC opponent AI.

[edited for bashing]

AvalonRanger

Broken meta and bad balance

Both Cyrodiil and Imperial City very need "non PVP mode toggle switch" for main quest.
I don't want to play both PVP and story quest at same time. Can't concentrate story flow.

Fallout76 has PVP disable mode, then why not in ESO?

jtm1018

Terrible performance in Cyrodiil

If zenibeth would refrain using stop motion animation in cyrodiil, pvp would be awesome, cp or no cp campaign, just saying..

Northwold

Honestly, I don't want to be at war with other players. It creates a really unpleasant, school playground vibe that simply isn't appealing and brings out the worst in people, especially when the learning curve for Cyrodiil is pretty steep so you spend days getting killed by random jerks when you're simply trying to understand what's going on, and getting ported miles away.

The lore setup for Cyrodiil and Imperial City also feels really weird and not properly established. I never really understand what's going on and Cyro barely even bothers to link itself in a continuous way to the wider world. You could easily change this with NPCs talking about how they hate doing this for Ayrenn all the time, or whatever, and guards having throwaway lines of dialogue. Instead it feels like chasing castles that are inhabited by unspeaking robots.