Arctic Blast is Bad. Real Bad.

Mr_Stach

This is one of those "Hope for the Best, Prepare for the worst" Situations.

I hope Zos listens and really takes our feedback to heart.

I'm prepared for things to go Live, not happy about it, but prepared.

ESO_Nightingale

Mr_Stach wrote: »

This is one of those "Hope for the Best, Prepare for the worst" Situations.

I hope Zos listens and really takes our feedback to heart.

I'm prepared for things to go Live, not happy about it, but prepared.

Yep. As much as i want to think "just wait a week" it's worth prepping for this to go live.

Mr_Stach

I just wish they would let us know they were working on something, or if they weren't. just anything

ESO_Nightingale

Mr_Stach wrote: »

I just wish they would let us know they were working on something, or if they weren't. just anything

yep. I want to know why there is hesitation on any comment

Mr_Stach

Back onto the Arctic Blast Topic, @ESO_Nightingale had a great rework idea and the animation is basically aready here. We just need Zos to do it.

ESO_Nightingale

Mr_Stach wrote: »

Back onto the Arctic Blast Topic, @ESO_Nightingale had a great rework idea and the animation is basically aready here. We just need Zos to do it.

this would work so well in tandem with deep fissure in pvp provided that it moved 50% faster and had that updated frozen tornado animation from recent content. and AB4.0 would keep that aoe that AB3.0 currently has, except with no obnoxious stun but double the ticks and duration.

Mr_Stach

I think even if they didn't rework the animation, doubling the Duration would be huge, make it on par with say Deadly cloak

Nser

Mr_Stach wrote: »

Back onto the Arctic Blast Topic, @ESO_Nightingale had a great rework idea and the animation is basically aready here. We just need Zos to do it.

that still leaves Polar wind users without a stun.
Think its hard to completely rework Arctic without touching on other skills first.
If you make Arctic blast the most reliable CC for warden, without healing, then you only effectively ruin build diversity because you wont have the choice anymore to heal by max health (polar wind) without losing the newly gained stun.


Imo both morphs should remain healing, while Arctic is based on spell/wpn dmg, no stun and Polar the traditional max health.
Since there cant be straight buffs without nerfs, perhaps Polar should be single target. Bring Polar down to Arctic cost to compensate.
technically Arctic is then the "damage" morph since higher spell dmg and stats results in the DoT attached hitting harder than somebody building max health and using Polar.
That still does not solve the stun issue, but at least all type of builds can use either arctic or polar depending for their burst heal, hot and DoT.
ive said it before ill say it again, stun should be scorch and northenstorm AND permafrost. If arctic blast stun mechanic is so opressive, surely within a 200 costing ultimate its fairly balanced. Its an ult after all.
The stun on Deep fissure back in the day might have been strong, since afaik scorch and morphs werent blockable back then and thus the stun unblockable. that has since changed and u can block them now, giving counterplay to the stun.

Ive seen people ask for a range stun, well scorch has a 20 by 7 range, which is plenty to qualify for alternative range stun.

Mr_Stach

I definitely wouldn't be opposed to it getting it's Stun Back. Or if they just made it a Birds Options instead of the stupid range thing.

Also while we're at it, Deceptive Predator should be a Snare Immunity instead of Minor Evasion.

YandereGirlfriend

Mr_Stach wrote: »

Also while we're at it, Deceptive Predator should be a Snare Immunity instead of Minor Evasion.

Porque no los dos?

That's the only source of Minor Evasion in the entire game so I'd rather not lose it.

Buff its active ability to include snare-immunity and perhaps drop its duration to 4 or 5 seconds to compensate for the added power.

That morph is very infrequently run - and likely nonexistent outside of PvP - so it is far from unreasonable to consider a hefty buff.

Nser

Mr_Stach wrote: »

I definitely wouldn't be opposed to it getting it's Stun Back. Or if they just made it a Birds Options instead of the stupid range thing.

Also while we're at it, Deceptive Predator should be a Snare Immunity instead of Minor Evasion.

id say snare removal/immunity should be base skill for both morphs, or having the duration of major expedition increased to 10 seconds if they dont want to make it a race against time copy.
either way falcons swiftness base skill needs something extra or buff

Mr_Stach

Oh wow, I did not realize that was the only source of Minor Evasion. That's kind of crazy

Nser

from my pvp perspective, having wardens replace bird of prey in favor of race against time or slotting both wasting valueble barspace, is a problem.
falcon swiftness is supposed to be the mobility skill for warden, a class skill at that so it only deserves to be better than options everybody has acces to or at least be on par, which it currently is not compaired to race against time.
Snare removal/immunity would be ideal but mimic race against time
Duration of major expedition to 10s makes BoP in use like elude, in the sense that youll likely already have the speed buff up when u need to perform LoS or move bc of longer duration, rather than having to cast it in the moment for 6s duration at which point Race against time beats it.

Mr_Stach

Nser wrote: »

from my pvp perspective, having wardens replace bird of prey in favor of race against time or slotting both wasting valueble barspace, is a problem.
falcon swiftness is supposed to be the mobility skill for warden, a class skill at that so it only deserves to be better than options everybody has acces to or at least be on par, which it currently is not compaired to race against time.
Snare removal/immunity would be ideal but mimic race against time
Duration of major expedition to 10s makes BoP in use like elude, in the sense that youll likely already have the speed buff up when u need to perform LoS or move bc of longer duration, rather than having to cast it in the moment for 6s duration at which point Race against time beats it.

Yeah, Universal Skills should always be outperformed by Class Skills...... But they aren't.

LeHarrt91

Mr_Stach wrote: »

Back onto the Arctic Blast Topic, @ESO_Nightingale had a great rework idea and the animation is basically aready here. We just need Zos to do it.

This would be great!

SEINTDARKNES

that still leaves Polar wind users without a stun.
Think its hard to completely rework Arctic without touching on other skills first.
If you make Arctic blast the most reliable CC for warden, without healing, then you only effectively ruin build diversity because you wont have the choice anymore to heal by max health (polar wind) without losing the newly gained stun.

I don't believe that, polar wind doesn't need a stun because this skill is mainly used by tanks and they have a lot of options for light cc and hard cc.

I play pvp a lot too but idk about you but i very rarely i see artic blast because of the nerf of healing, it's not cheap and doesn't heal enough to be use like a good healing rn mushrooms heal for more so i think it would be fine if we just get some kind of dmg and the stun.

Mr_Stach

So just as an example of other Classes vs Warden when it comes to stun capabilities (in the Class skill trees) here's Templar & DK:

Templar Stuns:
Binding Javelin - Instant Ranged
Toppling Charge - Instant Gap Closer
Nova - both morphs with Synergy
Unstable Core - 3rd attack

DK Stuns:
Flame Lash - Instant on Off-Balance Enemy
Dragon Leap - Both Morphs
Deep Breath - If Interrupted
Stone Giant - On Final Hit
Petrify - Instant Both Morphs

Compared to Warden:

Warden Stuns-
Feral Guardian - Sometimes
Arctic Blast - After 3 (5 on PTS) Ticks of Damage
Crystalized Slab - on PTS, icy bolt Stuns

Both Templar & DK has stuns on command which makes fighting them much harder than fighting a Warden

ESO_Nightingale

Mr_Stach wrote: »

So just as an example of other Classes vs Warden when it comes to stun capabilities (in the Class skill trees) here's Templar & DK:

Templar Stuns:
Binding Javelin - Instant Ranged
Toppling Charge - Instant Gap Closer
Nova - both morphs with Synergy
Unstable Core - 3rd attack

DK Stuns:
Flame Lash - Instant on Off-Balance Enemy
Dragon Leap - Both Morphs
Deep Breath - If Interrupted
Stone Giant - On Final Hit
Petrify - Instant Both Morphs

Compared to Warden:

Warden Stuns-
Feral Guardian - Sometimes
Arctic Blast - After 3 (5 on PTS) Ticks of Damage
Crystalized Slab - on PTS, icy bolt Stuns

Both Templar & DK has stuns on command which makes fighting them much harder than fighting a Warden

While we used to have one on arctic blast it was so bad because it literally didn't do any damage and had even worse healing than it does now.

Nser

SEINTDARKNES wrote: »

that still leaves Polar wind users without a stun.
Think its hard to completely rework Arctic without touching on other skills first.
If you make Arctic blast the most reliable CC for warden, without healing, then you only effectively ruin build diversity because you wont have the choice anymore to heal by max health (polar wind) without losing the newly gained stun.

I don't believe that, polar wind doesn't need a stun because this skill is mainly used by tanks and they have a lot of options for light cc and hard cc.

I play pvp a lot too but idk about you but i very rarely i see artic blast because of the nerf of healing, it's not cheap and doesn't heal enough to be use like a good healing rn mushrooms heal for more so i think it would be fine if we just get some kind of dmg and the stun.

im not saying Polar needs a stun, im saying if you make Arctic the primairy stun and no heal, then if u still did run Polar for the heal you need to go out of your way to obtain a stun. thats why i dont believe either morphs should have a stun, so you get build diversity. heal with spell dmg max stats or max health scaling, heal with arctic or polar

Nser

SEINTDARKNES wrote: »

that still leaves Polar wind users without a stun.
Think its hard to completely rework Arctic without touching on other skills first.
If you make Arctic blast the most reliable CC for warden, without healing, then you only effectively ruin build diversity because you wont have the choice anymore to heal by max health (polar wind) without losing the newly gained stun.

I don't believe that, polar wind doesn't need a stun because this skill is mainly used by tanks and they have a lot of options for light cc and hard cc.

I play pvp a lot too but idk about you but i very rarely i see artic blast because of the nerf of healing, it's not cheap and doesn't heal enough to be use like a good healing rn mushrooms heal for more so i think it would be fine if we just get some kind of dmg and the stun.

Arctic is actually still really good if you know how to build. 7-8k no crit and 13-14k crit heals for me.
its all build dependant, obviously you wont get good healing out of a health scaling heal if you build the traditional stacking spell/wpn dmg max mag/stam but there are ways to make Arctic/Polar decent enough for pvp while still having offensive potential.
This is what i mean with build diversity, having the option to build either spell/wpn damage or max health for your healing.
If you take away the healing from Arctic and make it a primairy stun, you only hurt players healing by Polar wind because obviously you cannot take both morphs and you will miss out on a stun (which is the main issue right now, warden lacking stun potential)

SEINTDARKNES

Arctic is actually still really good if you know how to build. 7-8k no crit and 13-14k crit heals for me.
its all build dependant, obviously you wont get good healing out of a health scaling heal if you build the traditional stacking spell/wpn dmg max mag/stam but there are ways to make Arctic/Polar decent enough for pvp while still having offensive potential.

What i was trying to say with not enough healing is other classes have better healing than artic blast and with more benefits.

This is what i mean with build diversity, having the option to build either spell/wpn damage or max health for your healing.

I don't know really how do you like to play but in xbox everyone is tanky really tanky, so this healing just promote to build tanky without any drawback so i think the only way to get the stun we need to lose something.

If you take away the healing from Arctic and make it a primairy stun, you only hurt players healing by Polar wind because obviously you cannot take both morphs and you will miss out on a stun (which is the main issue right now, warden lacking stun potential)

One way or another if the change to artic blast get in live you will have to use 2 different skills to heal and stun so i don't really see the problem, still seeds rn is a better healing than artic.

Nser

fair enough i see your point. if the shroom user has to pick both shrooms for heal and arctic for stun, thats still 2 skills and the same would go for the Polar wind user needing another skill to stun. i agree on this.
My point was mainly that if arctic gets reworked into only a stun, maybe dmg, and that being the saviour warden so desperately need, thats all fine for one build type. Previously i mentioned the word "ruin" build diversity, now thats a little extreme, but i still think if we're going to make buffs or changes like this, it should be available for all build types.
In this case we're talking about a stun, which i believe should be on skills already in your warden skill layout (shalks, northen/perma) so everybody can make use of it without shutting builds out that dont use spell/wpn dmg stacking and have to heal the max health/Polar route.
imo a buff that only enhances one playstyle, just because you feel the other is obsolete, is bad design. My proposed changes add something to the warden without forgetting playstyles that arent considered meta.
whatever is not meta is often disregarded

Nser

in short, maybe arctic healing scaling on spell/wpn dmg max mag/stam isnt the solution for reasons you just mentioned how it would only play in the tanky healstack meta, but making Arctic wardens primairy stun also aint it unless you want to forget max health healing and warden go hand in hand bc of the minor toughness passive and deny Polar users a stun

Snow_White

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Mr_Stach wrote: »

Also while we're at it, Deceptive Predator should be a Snare Immunity instead of Minor Evasion.

Porque no los dos?

That's the only source of Minor Evasion in the entire game so I'd rather not lose it.

Buff its active ability to include snare-immunity and perhaps drop its duration to 4 or 5 seconds to compensate for the added power.

That morph is very infrequently run - and likely nonexistent outside of PvP - so it is far from unreasonable to consider a hefty buff.

It’s run on PVE tanks.

ESO_Nightingale

Snow_White wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Mr_Stach wrote: »

Also while we're at it, Deceptive Predator should be a Snare Immunity instead of Minor Evasion.

Porque no los dos?

That's the only source of Minor Evasion in the entire game so I'd rather not lose it.

Buff its active ability to include snare-immunity and perhaps drop its duration to 4 or 5 seconds to compensate for the added power.

That morph is very infrequently run - and likely nonexistent outside of PvP - so it is far from unreasonable to consider a hefty buff.

It’s run on PVE tanks.

Even for tanks, isn't it a bit lacking?

Mr_Stach

Eh I wouldn't say it's a Must Have on Tanks. But I also wouldn't want the only source of Minor Evasion to disappear. I bet if they made Both Morphs provide Stun Immunity, then people would run it more in general.

ESO_Nightingale

Mr_Stach wrote: »

Eh I wouldn't say it's a Must Have on Tanks. But I also wouldn't want the only source of Minor Evasion to disappear. I bet if they made Both Morphs provide Stun Immunity, then people would run it more in general.

The skill kinda does need to do that.

Nser

Snare removal/immunity on falcon swiftness (base skill) make it happen.

Mr_Stach

Personally I think every class should have access to some sort of Snare Removal/Immunity.

Every class should have access to a Nice on Demand Stun.

Hopefully Zos can create better Synergies to allow every class to hit the sweet spot on Class Fantasy AND Efficiency.

Warden wanting to lean into Frost Abilities should be where it's at its Strongest.we are after all "Masters of Frost"

Right Zos?

SEINTDARKNES

Mr_Stach wrote: »

Personally I think every class should have access to some sort of Snare Removal/Immunity.

Every class should have access to a Nice on Demand Stun.

Hopefully Zos can create better Synergies to allow every class to hit the sweet spot on Class Fantasy AND Efficiency.

Warden wanting to lean into Frost Abilities should be where it's at its Strongest.we are after all "Masters of Frost"

Right Zos?

I think you are right, there are some effects that every class should have for example a stun on demand.