Arctic Blast is Bad. Real Bad.

Necrotech_Master

Mr_Stach wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

never really paid much attention to the stun (since its mostly a pve build, most weak enemies die before the stun, and most strong enemies are immune to the CC anyway), but i think it did seem to kind of feel tacked on

It's funny because they are tacking stun onto Crystalline Slab now.

i read that change too and it also seems out of left field lol

doesurmindglow

As a PVPer who mains magden I have to agree. The class is basically useless outside of a support role. This change makes that situation worse, not better.

There is very little reliable CC in the kit, which is crazy for a kit so heavily loaded into frost damage. Arctic worked fairly well as a defensive stun to get out out of bad situations, but wasn't remotely viable as a true burst combo tool. This change eliminates that modest defensive capability as well, and leaves a class whose major theme is literally frost damage with no reliable CC at all.

Let's imagine this change on any other class:

- Binding Javelin (recently buffed even!) stuns 6 seconds after hitting a target.
- Streak stuns targets you moved through 6 seconds ago.
- Mass Hysteria does nothing on cast, but stuns 6 seconds later.
- Fossilize immobilizes first, but stuns after it's been up for 6 seconds.
- Bone Totem (probably the second worst class CC in the game after the Wardens') doesn't do anything to targets who enter its AOE but will stun anyone who's been inside the AOE for at least 6 seconds.

What are they possibly thinking? I can't imagine anyone who's played the class in PVP is informing these nerfs.

It's a terrible change and should not only be reverted but if anything should go the other way entirely, allowing wardens to stun off the first tick of Arctic. Consistent with the class kit CCs that are provided to every. other. class. in. the. game.

Dakkx

I don’t even play warden and I know this skill is bad. Who at zos thought this was too offensive? Offensively bad maybe…

doesurmindglow

There is another right way to do this if they won't embrace Nightingale's actually pretty solid "frost tornado" concept:

- Arctic Blast: Stuns but does not heal. Instant stun and frost damage.
- Polar Wind: Heals but does not stun. Original health scaling and no damage.

There we go

ESO_Nightingale

doesurmindglow wrote: »

There is another right way to do this if they won't embrace Nightingale's actually pretty solid "frost tornado" concept:

- Arctic Blast: Stuns but does not heal. Instant stun and frost damage.
- Polar Wind: Heals but does not stun. Original health scaling and no damage.

There we go

Polar is actually fine as it is. the blast change, hell, even if it was ab2.0's old projectile with no heal but with 5s increased duration and ticks it would probably work okayish enough. though the projectile definitely should do some damage too.

RevJJ

I really respect the time and effort players put into testing and pointing out these kind of things.

Too bad it will still go live since pts is just PR stuff and ZOS doesn’t actually listen to player feedback.

ESO_Nightingale

RevJJ wrote: »

I really respect the time and effort players put into testing and pointing out these kind of things.

Too bad it will still go live since pts is just PR stuff and ZOS doesn’t actually listen to player feedback.

i think it's possible that we'll at least see some changes either next week and/or the week after. there's a lot of people talking about how bad this is.

SEINTDARKNES

Dakkx wrote: »

I don’t even play warden and I know this skill is bad. Who at zos thought this was too offensive? Offensively bad maybe…

Maybe some dev got randomly stun and killed by a shalk and think was op?

I have been warden since Morrowind day one and this skill has change a lot over time.

I think the defensive stun is really bad, i play stamden in pvp and before the nerf to the healing i was my choice to go but was really hard to line the burst, also i mainly i take this skill morph for the healing and maybe some good stun, i want to clarify i play high MMR so you don't have the easiness of pressing 1 button and win you need to make a lot of choices and sometimes you don't have the time to try to line bursts on top of that wardens are too predictable making trying to make somewhat of pressure sometimes it's really difficult.

Like other people say we just use this skill for the heal and maybe a stun, realistically this skill right now don't shine because of his heals or stun and with the nerfs to the healing potential I don't think anyone uses this skill anymore.

ESO_Nightingale

SEINTDARKNES wrote: »

Dakkx wrote: »

I don’t even play warden and I know this skill is bad. Who at zos thought this was too offensive? Offensively bad maybe…

Maybe some dev got randomly stun and killed by a shalk and think was op?

I have been warden since Morrowind day one and this skill has change a lot over time.

I think the defensive stun is really bad, i play stamden in pvp and before the nerf to the healing i was my choice to go but was really hard to line the burst, also i mainly i take this skill morph for the healing and maybe some good stun, i want to clarify i play high MMR so you don't have the easiness of pressing 1 button and win you need to make a lot of choices and sometimes you don't have the time to try to line bursts on top of that wardens are too predictable making trying to make somewhat of pressure sometimes it's really difficult.

Like other people say we just use this skill for the heal and maybe a stun, realistically this skill right now don't shine because of his heals or stun and with the nerfs to the healing potential I don't think anyone uses this skill anymore.

The reasons given for the nerf seem to tell us that they really don't play warden pvp much. It is so incredibly hard to reliably get a blast+shalks combo off without being stunned, or without the enemy avoiding a single tick of the skill. And it's so damn expensive if that does happen.

Greek_Hellspawn

Zos should definitely do something good for this skill, it needs help asap.

Vizir

I suspect the change was centered around making it predominantly a tank tool which was the idea in the first place. As an HP based heal it is a direct comparison between it and NB Dark Cloak (HP based HOT w/ minor protection), Sorc Clannfear (HP based heal w/clannfear doong damage), Templar Blazing Shield (HP based shield with damage “reflect”), Necro Scythe (HP based Heal w/ damage) and DK GDB (pseudo HP based heal, the more health, the more it can drop, the more it can heal).

As such, in a vacuum of just those skills, the new arctic blast isn’t all that bad. And Polar Wind is the only HP based hot that heals others too.

The issue is that warden has no other major instant heal for self. Maybe make leeching vines or lotus flower have a similar effect to rally?

ESO_Nightingale

Vizir wrote: »

I suspect the change was centered around making it predominantly a tank tool which was the idea in the first place. As an HP based heal it is a direct comparison between it and NB Dark Cloak (HP based HOT w/ minor protection), Sorc Clannfear (HP based heal w/clannfear doong damage), Templar Blazing Shield (HP based shield with damage “reflect”), Necro Scythe (HP based Heal w/ damage) and DK GDB (pseudo HP based heal, the more health, the more it can drop, the more it can heal).

As such, in a vacuum of just those skills, the new arctic blast isn’t all that bad. And Polar Wind is the only HP based hot that heals others too.

The issue is that warden has no other major instant heal for self. Maybe make leeching vines or lotus flower have a similar effect to rally?

I'm not saying that you necessarily want this, but I don't see the reason why the tank heal needs to have another tank specific morph with a cc on it especially when most tanks use polar wind anyway and the class already has access to an aoe rooting tool for dungeons, people have literally been begging for several years for another frost damage skill on warden and this is the closest that we've ever come to this morph finally doing that. in order to fix the healing issue, they could make shrooms heal self for 10% more or they could make living trellis heal for 65% more and adjust it's cost to compensate.

Nser

id rather see stun being added back to shalks and the stun from arctic back to northenstorm/perma frost. Arctic wind and morphs dont need any more adjustments or complete redesign just take off the stun so its not as overloaded with a burst heal hot dot and stun. You dont have to slot arctic anymore at that point if your build cannot reach decent enough healing out of a health based heal. instead ask for green balance buffs and keep arctic reserved for health based tanks both pve and pvp

ESO_Nightingale

Nser wrote: »

id rather see stun being added back to shalks and the stun from arctic back to northenstorm/perma frost. Arctic wind and morphs dont need any more adjustments or complete redesign just take off the stun so its not as overloaded with a burst heal hot dot and stun. You dont have to slot arctic anymore at that point if your build cannot reach decent enough healing out of a health based heal. instead ask for green balance buffs and keep arctic reserved for health based tanks both pve and pvp

and what would you give it to compensate for the loss of it's morph effect? 5 more seconds of duration and 5 more ticks?

Mr_Stach

I think having 2 morphs for Tanks is poor design. Make 1 defensive and one aggressive. Let there be a clear option for different playstyles. Right now they both heal and one has a terrible stun.

Nser

Morph effect meaning the stun from Arctic blast? Polar wind remaining the same with healing one other person and arctic being single target gets more cost reduction. both morphs will do burst heal hot and dot, one being 2 targets more expensive, one being being single target cheaper. im aware arctic is already cheaper than polar so add reduce cost to base skill.
the idea is to not gut arctic changing the scaling or overhaul it into something else completely because that would only harm tanks for pve and pvp cutting off an entire playstyle. buff green balance so u can more reliably count on your class heals instead of defaulting to RR/vigor and not feel forced to run a mediocre heal in arctic for your build because you require a stun.
ull get your stun in shalks and ultimate and your healing with green balance

Nser

that way you get new playstyles and preserve the old health based arctic for build diversity

Nser

Green balance could use some love to be a more standalone healing skill line instead of feeling forced to look for heals elsewhere in resto staff or vigor, or both for that matter.
Lotus was the first step towards that now we just need to keep up the pace.
Soothing Spore and Enchanted growth are decent, but nothing amazing because they are aoe. the real issue however is the cost imo. Reduce this and perhaps it beats Restos blessing of restoration. class skill vs weapon skill everybody has acces to.
Healing Seed and morphs need an option to use the synergy yourself. a 5 second HoT on a 20 second cooldown is hardly op and adds a unique flavour. Necro having a damage self synergy and warden having a healing self synergy. more unique builds.
Living Vines and Morphs could perhaps follow the Lotus flower treatment. Combine both morphs, making one single target and a longer duration and the other places vines on one more person in a 8 meter radius from you with shorter uptime. micro manage for 2 targets or longer uptime for just you.
Lotus is fine like i said
nature embrace again could use a cost reduction. imo this skill should rival rapid regen but the cost difference is huge. also u need a target to even begin using it

Mr_Stach

I think there are aspects in Every Tree that should be looked at, especially skills that get little to no use. I think out of all the Trees, Winter's Embrace has more under utilized than the other trees across all content, but that doesn't mean the other trees are perfect.

Personally I think there should be a morph for Living Vines that wrap around an enemy, Immobilizing them for a nice CC

Nser

im trying to build on whats already there with some tweeks while giving trellis a cc is an overhaul of the skill.
and ye other aspects also need "tweeks", not overhauls.

Nser

Id argue bird of prey needs snare removal/immunity to compete with race against time, a skill everybody has acces to.
race against time does 3 things, expedition snareremoval/immunity and minor force + passives like the damage shield when blocking. Bird of prey has 2 effects, expedition and minor berserk + passives.
class skills should be better or more unique than options everybody has acces to. The unique part being bird of prey is passive slottable while the effects of rat and bop are largly the same.
stun being added to the base morph scorch (instead of the minor breach buff) and traveling time decrease for birds

Vizir

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Vizir wrote: »

I suspect the change was centered around making it predominantly a tank tool which was the idea in the first place. As an HP based heal it is a direct comparison between it and NB Dark Cloak (HP based HOT w/ minor protection), Sorc Clannfear (HP based heal w/clannfear doong damage), Templar Blazing Shield (HP based shield with damage “reflect”), Necro Scythe (HP based Heal w/ damage) and DK GDB (pseudo HP based heal, the more health, the more it can drop, the more it can heal).

As such, in a vacuum of just those skills, the new arctic blast isn’t all that bad. And Polar Wind is the only HP based hot that heals others too.

The issue is that warden has no other major instant heal for self. Maybe make leeching vines or lotus flower have a similar effect to rally?

I'm not saying that you necessarily want this, but I don't see the reason why the tank heal needs to have another tank specific morph with a cc on it especially when most tanks use polar wind anyway and the class already has access to an aoe rooting tool for dungeons, people have literally been begging for several years for another frost damage skill on warden and this is the closest that we've ever come to this morph finally doing that. in order to fix the healing issue, they could make shrooms heal self for 10% more or they could make living trellis heal for 65% more and adjust it's cost to compensate.

Warden is my least played class and holds no appeal personally so I don't have a stake in this at all and am simply rationalizing.

Theoretically polar wind is the defensive morph and this the offensive. Templars blazing shield is the offensive morph (reflects 30% dmg take out) and radiant ward the defensive (increases shield strength). Necro's hungry scythe is the defensive morph while ruinous scythe costs stam. All the "HP based heals", which for obvious reasons have been geared for tanks, have a fairly good distinction between them and most are only used by tanks (excluding pvp). Most tank heals are not used by anyone else except for arctic blast, and I suspect that they wanted to change that.

I don't agree with it but am simply giving my 2 cents on why the change happened.

Vizir

Nser wrote: »

Id argue bird of prey needs snare removal/immunity to compete with race against time, a skill everybody has acces to.
race against time does 3 things, expedition snareremoval/immunity and minor force + passives like the damage shield when blocking. Bird of prey has 2 effects, expedition and minor berserk + passives.
class skills should be better or more unique than options everybody has acces to. The unique part being bird of prey is passive slottable while the effects of rat and bop are largly the same.
stun being added to the base morph scorch (instead of the minor breach buff) and traveling time decrease for birds

But 5% more damage done is better compared to 10% more crit damage. With no crit bonuses 5% more damage is comparable to 10% more crit chance or 50% more crit damage. But now with camo hunter being possible on mag toons, it does end up falling short in pve. But in pvp where impen is more common and rallying cry being the go to small scale set, minor force falls far short of minor berserk. And malacath still works well on wardens in pvp.

Nser

Yes you give a valid point but at best in general the berserk is equal to the force respectively so i count them as the same 1 out 3 buffs in bop vs rat.
the next thing you mention is how berserk is no longer a unique thing to the warden now that camo hunter adds the buff to other classes which is exactly why the snare removal/immunity is needed so u dont get warden dropping a class skill in favor of a skill everybody has acces to.
bird of prey + lotus, 2 class skills vs camo hunter and rat, 2 skill everybody has acces to.

Nser

often im feeling forced to run both rat and bop, for passive and active use. I dont need to tell you thats redundant if it wasnt for the snare removal and i could save barspace.
thats why i put those 4 skills against eachother in my prev post since they will essentially net you the same buffs per barspace. give me a reason to use bop and lotus over camo and rat and imo snare removal on bop is just that

Aldoss

Vizir wrote: »

Nser wrote: »

Id argue bird of prey needs snare removal/immunity to compete with race against time, a skill everybody has acces to.
race against time does 3 things, expedition snareremoval/immunity and minor force + passives like the damage shield when blocking. Bird of prey has 2 effects, expedition and minor berserk + passives.
class skills should be better or more unique than options everybody has acces to. The unique part being bird of prey is passive slottable while the effects of rat and bop are largly the same.
stun being added to the base morph scorch (instead of the minor breach buff) and traveling time decrease for birds

But 5% more damage done is better compared to 10% more crit damage. With no crit bonuses 5% more damage is comparable to 10% more crit chance or 50% more crit damage. But now with camo hunter being possible on mag toons, it does end up falling short in pve. But in pvp where impen is more common and rallying cry being the go to small scale set, minor force falls far short of minor berserk. And malacath still works well on wardens in pvp.

The statement isn't wrong, but from my PvP perspective, even with Rallying Cry being a thing, rat wins out against bop. The snare removal is easily the most valuable component of the skill. The boost from minor force will drop below minor berzerk, but you still get that immunity. In settings where no one is running RC, rat is a far and away winner.

I don't slot bop anymore for these reasons and it feels sad.

Nser

exactly my point but i take it even further running lotus + bop + rat, because i feel i need to but its highly redundant. the only deciding factor from a pvp point of view is the snare removal/immunity and thats exactly the buff bop needs a deserves being a class skill, an iconic one at that

Vizir

Aldoss wrote: »

Vizir wrote: »

Nser wrote: »

Id argue bird of prey needs snare removal/immunity to compete with race against time, a skill everybody has acces to.
race against time does 3 things, expedition snareremoval/immunity and minor force + passives like the damage shield when blocking. Bird of prey has 2 effects, expedition and minor berserk + passives.
class skills should be better or more unique than options everybody has acces to. The unique part being bird of prey is passive slottable while the effects of rat and bop are largly the same.
stun being added to the base morph scorch (instead of the minor breach buff) and traveling time decrease for birds

But 5% more damage done is better compared to 10% more crit damage. With no crit bonuses 5% more damage is comparable to 10% more crit chance or 50% more crit damage. But now with camo hunter being possible on mag toons, it does end up falling short in pve. But in pvp where impen is more common and rallying cry being the go to small scale set, minor force falls far short of minor berserk. And malacath still works well on wardens in pvp.

The statement isn't wrong, but from my PvP perspective, even with Rallying Cry being a thing, rat wins out against bop. The snare removal is easily the most valuable component of the skill. The boost from minor force will drop below minor berzerk, but you still get that immunity. In settings where no one is running RC, rat is a far and away winner.

I don't slot bop anymore for these reasons and it feels sad.

Sure I'm not saying bird of prey is better but it's not that much worse, can run shuffle or fm for the snare/root immunity. As netch is a risk curtesy of plaguebreak in larger fights it's not all that unreasonable. Even discounting rallying cry, impen is still around and you still have 20% reduced crit damage done by default. A standard 5M, 2H build with no extra crit invested will get a 1% more damage done from minor force, reduced to less than 1% with even 1 piece of impen being worn.

It's tough to look at skills in a vacuum. NB Fear is obsolete compared to turn evil. Necro skulls and cutting dive are inferior to dswing and snipe. There are plenty of examples.

Mr_Stach

I know I'll probably get crucified for this but if all the class specific things are inferior to Weapon Skills/Guild Skills or whatever else, then what are the point of classes.

I really think that universal skills should be the weaker version to the class based skills, this would incentivize people to lean more into class fantasy and less of these homogenized builds.

Nser

Mr_Stach wrote: »

I know I'll probably get crucified for this but if all the class specific things are inferior to Weapon Skills/Guild Skills or whatever else, then what are the point of classes.

I really think that universal skills should be the weaker version to the class based skills, this would incentivize people to lean more into class fantasy and less of these homogenized builds.

this 100%

Mr_Stach wrote: »

I think having 2 morphs for Tanks is poor design. Make 1 defensive and one aggressive. Let there be a clear option for different playstyles. Right now they both heal and one has a terrible stun.

i'll happily use Polar wind if i can get my stun in shalks, or the arctic blast mechanic in northenstorm/perma frost. the new crystal slab is nice and all but goodluck stunning a 2h/dualwield/snb build that has no range ability nor light atk at all.
The Arctic blast morph can then be reworked entirely to an offensive ability.
i think its vital stuns are added to other options in the warden toolkit if we are going to remove the stun entirely from arctic blast. Even if arctic can be reworked in a damage and stun ability, for Polar wind users there still should be more options to stun.