Neutral flag in Cyrodiil for PvE players

DreamyLu

I'm PvE player and voted no. There are lot of reasons why, already said by others before me and all valid. No need to repeat.

I just bring a different aspect: why is tere an issue at all? To me, PvP is a part of the game with a specific content. Either we do it or we don't. If PvE players decide to touch PvP content because they want the related rewards, then they shall do the content as is. Why should they get a special treatment? I don't get it...

Agenericname

AzuraFan wrote: »

Agenericname wrote: »

No, it isnt a flaw at all. I do the quests and I PvP. I also PvE.

I see it as a flaw. If it wasn't, there wouldn't be so much angst over wanting to quest in the zone without having to PvP. The flaw, to me, is that there are achievements that combine achievements from PvE zones and Cyrodiil. For example, you must complete five questing achievements to get the overall grand achievement, and one of the questing achievements is in Cyrodiil. So you can do all the PvE quests and you still can't get the grand achievement. Why are there even quests in a PvP zone?

The designers should have kept PvP and PvE separate, in zones, achievements, quests, everything.

I see this flaw as similar to the "putting story quests into dungeons" flaw. Another disaster that causes a lot of angst among a specific group of gamers: soloers and those who don't want to rush dungeons.

Having said all that, I don't think Cyrodiil should change. But for me the flaws tarnish the game and obviously cause angst for a significant number of players. That's a design failure.

What you call a "flaw" other's call a choice. No PvEer is forced into Cyrodiil. They do it for FOMO or the shinies. Full stop. The quests, in IC specifically are fun. Its an immersive zone. The quests in Cyrodiil are, meh.

Same with dungeons. Personally I consider the story inside dungeons to be awesome. Dungeons are fun and the story should be epic.

Companions are something that I am not really into. They do very little for. I don't consider them a flaw, I just don't play that part of the game because it doesn't interest me.

As far as them being separated, I enjoy them being together as they are. This is the only game that I PvP in, and its because it's of the variety. I simply pass on the activities I don't enjoy and play what I do. Its precisely what makes it such a beautiful game, there's something for everyone.

drsalvation

I'm all for having neutrality, I always wanted the concept of forming alliances with another alliance to take down another alliance's base.
And as an imperial main and fanboy, I hated that there was not an imperial faction to DEFEND cyrodiil.

But there's really nothing in Cyrodiil worth PvE'ing, and even if there was, towns with quests are generally empty.
There's no story to do in Cyrodiil, and it's a massive horse riding simulator.

What I want is a story mode for Cyrodiil (not to replace current cyrodiil, just a story expansion) where I could defend it from the three banners and move on with the story (I doubt PvP'ers give a carpet about lore)

But no, no "neutral" flag for PvP, it's redundant and unnecessary.
Maybe move the story quests from imperial city to protected instances, but that's about as much.

RisenEclipse

AlnilamE wrote: »

RisenEclipse wrote: »

As a PvE player who currently is trying to get THAT LAST BLOODY SKYSHARD FROM BEYOND THE AD GATE! JUST LET ME IN YOU STUPID BUMBLEBEES!

Have you set the campaign as your home and turned on Cyrodiil notifications?

Also, during the PvP event, some of the maps will be night-capped for a particular faction. So if you are on in the morning, check out the various campaigns and hopefully one will have the gate you need open.

That's with I did with my characters and they all have the skyshards behind enemy gates, even if they don't have any other Cyro skyshards.

I do have a home campaign, and I check the map it to see if the gates are opened lol I will be trying tonight to see if I can get through them to grab the skyshards. But my luck is so rubbish when it comes to this game...

xXSilverDragonXx

Why not just have a PVE map version. Literally a Cyro map that equates to a zone map? That would likely be ridiculously easy to do as it would be the same as going to another zone. And nobody is bothered by it. Frankly, it would be a nice way to complete out the tamriel map because it would actually include the zone as part of the zone maps rather than separate it into a separate queue.

Ragnork

As a PvEr No
I have completed all the PvE "stuff" in Cyro.
I have closed all the dolmans.
I have collected all the skyshards.
At the same time I have laid siege to endless castles and towers, ran with the hord and had a superb time of it.
Are you going to die - yes - often - so what.
Can it be frustrating - yes - often.

How did I start in PvP? I took scouting missions and then to "fast travel" home attacked the "farm". Get killed, re-spawn.
Then one day realized that with a small change in tactic I could actual take and hold the farm. Somedays you are joined by your side, somedays attacked and killed. Either way it can be fun.

My feeling is that PvP is let down in this game, from the start there has only been Cyro.

drsalvation

xXSilverDragonXx wrote: »

Why not just have a PVE map version. Literally a Cyro map that equates to a zone map? That would likely be ridiculously easy to do as it would be the same as going to another zone. And nobody is bothered by it. Frankly, it would be a nice way to complete out the tamriel map because it would actually include the zone as part of the zone maps rather than separate it into a separate queue.

I'd like that as long as there's a story quest along it. Otherwise it would be completely pointless.
As I said in my previous response, I just want to be an imperial defending Cyrodiil, it would be cool to have a story quest to finally put an end to the three-banner war and reclaim Cyrodiil for the imperials. As long as it's on its own instance, I doubt PvP'ers would care about lore.

Dojohoda

Just go to Cyrodiil and do your questing. Maybe you won't run into anyone since the action is mostly at keeps. If you do get killed, rez at a keep or where you want, and run back. Or try a different campaign. You don't have to turn in your quests at the same campaign.

Tornaad

Tonight, when running through the Imperial City trying to get my ticket, I got 9 of the 12 civilians I needed to free in the Arena District and then got killed by a gang of Aldmeri Dominion players. So, I respawn at the spawning point that was thankfully in the same district and almost get to one of the remaining civilians and get killed again ... by the same group, and then a second time and by the time the third time came around they had taken over the Arean District so that I could no longer respawn there. So, I respawn in the district next to the Arena district and almost get to the door when suddenly I find the same group pouring through the door and of course I die.

Mind you I am bad enough at PVP that when I was a CR 60 I went against a player with a level 3 character, and I lost, badly, and I kept running into probably a dozen of these guys. I didn't stand a chance.
Then after respawning one more time, I found they had taken over the next district too which meant I had to travel through 2 districts to get back and get my last three people freed.

I wanted to yell and scream because of how frustrated I was. I seriously thought about just trying to complete a different quest or just give up on the last ticket.

But then I would never learn. I would never get better, and then they would win.

So, I tried one more time. I found some extra doors that were not the main doors in the middle and managed to sneak past a group of Daggerfall Covenant players who were apparently going in behind the Dominion gang and managed to get back to the Arena District where I happily found the Ebonheart pact had retaken the district and I got my last three civilians. Then after I got my quest completed, I saw another gang of Dominion players and charged right in and used that as a fast travel back to base.

And as bad as I am at PVP, I have grown to like it for one reason, for me it is the ultimate sneak gameplay in ESO. If I get caught I pop like a balloon with a thousand dart guns being unloaded on it at the same time. And when I think about it in those terms, it actually becomes rather fun.

I actually plan to go into Cyrodill after the Event is over to run around and scout resources out and then try to capture them until I die. Use that to fast travel back to turn in my quest and repeat. While I will die the moment a player finds me, it will be fun.

I don't think those players were actually targeting me. Yes, it felt like it, but most likely, I was just being stupid and kept going to the best spots to jump someone (I think it's called ganking) and that was likely my problem. And even if they were targeting me, it just gave me a wonderful chance to experience a much more realistic stealth gameplay than I would otherwise get.

benetrio

The simple fix would be for them to stop making us collect event tickets from these stupid pvp events. give pvpers their little event with only bonus AP, stones, and xp.

Kalle_Demos

I'm a PVE player. I do not own a single piece of Impenetrable armor. Unless I'm hoarding it to research and forgot about it. Went into Cyrodiil today and was ambushed by Gankers several times. Could care less. It's PVP and I was unprepared to fight on those terms. I knew that going in. I completed my daily and got the Event Tickets regardless. This topic is ridiculous.

Mayrael

Northwold wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

I appreciate your willingness to think about answers, but the truth is the best way to not have neutral flagged players abuse the flag is to not give them one.

Fair response. Personally my only real annoyance with Cyro, which I've tried but just don't like (I don't care about the quests), is that i keep getting masterwrits there which is a total ballache. They can solve that by stopping the damned masterwrits from sending you to Cyro or make it easier by not asking you to take the entire armoury just to use a bloody crafting station.

But I was quite surprised to read the other thread in which people were talking about ganking quest players. It's unnecessary behaviour that makes the game feel unpleasant to new players and in Cyro it's also disrespectful of other people's time seeing as you get blasted back to the nearest keep/outpost your alliance holds.

And what about the "PvE" players who don't want to learn the mechanics of dungeons and trials, who don't want to learn how to build their character so they aren't a crutch in group content? Are they not wasting other players time? This is one of the reasons I hate group PvE - because I've spent hours wasting my time dragging incompetent PvE players along with me.

Where is the line separating one from the other? Why should a PvP player who plays to the best of his ability, has prepared for it, and plays according to the rules and intentions of the game's creators be stigmatized but someone who through his laziness and carelessness makes the game harder for others not?

Why should a player who took the time to prepare for PvP be stigmatized because someone else doesn't want to take any steps to protect themselves from the effects of entering a PvPvE zone?

You don't like PvP? Cool. I don't like Trials for example and you know what, I don't flood the forum with threads about wanting access to sets, skins, personalities or titles from that contet. I've come to terms with the fact that this part of the game is not for me and so should you.

Edit:
typo

deleted220614-000183

madrab73 wrote: »

No, the player cap is a lot lower than at launch as it is. Having a load of neutral players in won't help balance.

[snip] Of course that neutral players are less CPU and server resources consuming that the fighting ones.
[snip]

COmplexity of one neutral player is one.
Complexity of ten neutral players is ten
complexity of hundred neutral playes is hundred

COmplexity of one active PVP player is much more (as his attacks have effects) let me say it is 10 (simplified model)
Complexity of 2 PVP players is 10*10 as they are fighting healing, interacting each other.
Complexity of 3 PVP players is 10*10*10 as all three are interacting
Complexity of hundred PVP players is 10^100 = 1,e+100 (1 and 100 nulls)

[snip]
[edited for rude/insulting comment]

Dojohoda

trpajzla wrote: »

madrab73 wrote: »

No, the player cap is a lot lower than at launch as it is. Having a load of neutral players in won't help balance.

[snip] Of course that neutral players are less CPU and server resources consuming that the fighting ones.
]snip]

COmplexity of one neutral player is one.
Complexity of ten neutral players is ten
complexity of hundred neutral playes is hundred

COmplexity of one active PVP player is much more (as his attacks have effects) let me say it is 10 (simplified model)
Complexity of 2 PVP players is 10*10 as they are fighting healing, interacting each other.
Complexity of 3 PVP players is 10*10*10 as all three are interacting
Complexity of hundred PVP players is 10^100 = 1,e+100 (1 and 100 nulls)

[snip]

The comment is referring to the population balance of the 3 factions, not server resources.

[edited to remove quote]

deleted220614-000183

but poor server performance is the root cause of all the problems.
Cyro is unplayable and widely unpopular, because it is laggy.
Alliances are not ballanced (obviously) as big groups of lagged PVP players cant do anything, just been killed by one group which is lucky enough it is not lagged at the moment.
Some people posted on forum that they made hundreds of kills in ten minutes in one small group just because all other alliances/players were lagged, stunned and transformed into statues because of massive server lag.

Neutral players with very low server load would help a lot reduce server load BUT the problem is, that PVP ***** would not have possibility to kill fresh canonnen fodder with impunity which is the only thing what is PVP about.

And to have enough cannonen fodder, ZOS must never implement white flag option as it would turn out that 99 percent of players would be using white flagoption for event tickets, harvesting resources, crafting sets and other non PVP activities in Cyro which means end of the Cyro idea alltogether .

I try to be polite but it is hard [snip]

[edited for baiting]

madrab73

I'm all for them getting a PVE campaign. As long as the loot table is adjusted ie no PVP sets, AP, citrus, PVP items, PVP event tickets and reduce the XP from town quests to reflect the lack of danger for the reward.

deleted220614-000183

hah OK.
I go as I have not anything else to say about that.
So dear PVP players, good luck without me.
You can try to solve Squaring the circle (PVP in Cyro) for next four years.
[snip]
Maybe if you spent next 4 years it would improve.
Good luck.

[edited for baiting]

Grizzbeorn

Kiralyn2000 wrote: »

no, I don't agree with the OP's idea. Because, as others have said, there's a population limit on the zone. Having PvE'ers and tourists taking up space in that isn't good. (of course, I also think it's not good under the current system - they're still taking up space that an actual PvPer could use. They just can be kicked in the head if someone actually finds them out in the wilderness.)

I see reasonable arguments from almost everybody in this thread on both sides of the debate, but...

If having PvEers in the zone negatively affects the ability of PvPers to participate due to a population cap (which was put in place to help with the performance issues), then perhaps they (ZOS) need to remove the reasons for PvEers to be there in the first place.

Hurbster

I'm not happy to take up a slot from someone who wants to pvp while I go fish and hunt skyshards. Not a thing I would do by choice, but what else is there?

deleted220614-000183

Grizzbeorn wrote: »

Kiralyn2000 wrote: »

no, I don't agree with the OP's idea. Because, as others have said, there's a population limit on the zone. Having PvE'ers and tourists taking up space in that isn't good. (of course, I also think it's not good under the current system - they're still taking up space that an actual PvPer could use. They just can be kicked in the head if someone actually finds them out in the wilderness.)

I see reasonable arguments from almost everybody in this thread on both sides of the debate, but...

If having PvEers in the zone negatively affects the ability of PvPers to participate due to a population cap (which was put in place to help with the performance issues), then perhaps they (ZOS) need to remove the reasons for PvEers to be there in the first place.

i just couple of posts above explained on simplified model, that:
- complexity of 100 PVE players in cyro would be100
- complexity of 100 PVP players fighting each other in one area would be
1000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000

So just comparing these two numbers I really dont know how placing cap on PVE players would affect performance of the PVP players as load of PVE players would be neglible comparing to load caused by PVP players.

But as I said. I'm stunned how people who don't know anything about programming are making quite big statements in disscusion

hafgood

It's not PvE when in Cyrodiil. It's quests and dolmens and delves in a PvP zone.

The quests award AP so are therefore PvP related, the dolmens can give seige weapons in the chest so are therefore PvP related, killing a delve boss gives an AP boost so is therefore PvP related.

Harvesting nodes allows the PvP player to get the mats they need to craft gear, and also has the War Torte recipe as a special node.

Skyshards are also PvP related as some have deliberately been put behind the gates to promote the taking of the home keeps for more reasons than just the scrolls.

So there is no PvE in the zone. It'd all PvP related. So feel free to take the PvE out of the zone and leave PvP Cyrodiil alone.

So for you PvErs you can have you zone - it has absolutely nothing in it and we PvPers get to keep Cyrodiil as it is.

If you want the achievements amd rewards from Cyrodiil you have to accept that it's a war zone and you have to take the risk of dying, which we all do.

MasterSpatula

VaranisArano wrote: »

If the neutral flag disabled every reward, like fish, achievements, AP, recipes, and skyshards, I'd maybe consider it. I'm against anything that amounts to "I want the same rewards without the intended risk."

But in terms of abusing such a flag, I assure you that I can think of a lot of uses for a "Neutral" EP player who follows around one of the enemy ball groups to call out their movements. You don't have to attack other players to abuse such a set to troll PVPers.

I was right there with you until you said "ball groups." Anyone who does anything that thwarts ball groups is a damned hero!

xclassgaming

Yes allow it. PVP shouldn't even be in the game tbh, game would be SO MUCH BETTER without it.

Grizzbeorn

trpajzla wrote: »

But as I said. I'm stunned how people who don't know anything about programming are making quite big statements in disscusion

My statement doesn't have anything to do with server resources and the type of player's affect on that (via calculations the game has to make for each player behavior).

I'm talking about the population cap -- just a number -- which limits how many total players can occupy the zone at one time.
Player type has absolutely no bearing on that number. There are only so many character spaces available in the zone at a given time; whether an individual character is PvE or PvP doesn't matter; they still take up a space.

So for every PvE character in the zone, there is one less space for a PvP character.

JARTHEGREY

I play PvE with very little interest in playing PvP (because I'm rubbish at fighting) but I do enjoy doing the daily quests, delves etc. I'm quite happy for Cyrodill to be a PvP area and I can put up with getting killed occasionally because I am 'the enemy'.

The problem (for me) in Cyrodill is the travelling and specifically - the resurrection. On occasion I've managed to get deep into the map, in my own alliance area and started doing some quests etc. Then the fighting starts, I get killed by some random and I end up resurrected in my home keep - but now, I can't travel back to where I was because it's been taken over.

I'm not saying that 'resurrecting on the spot' is the answer because I can see how that would annoy PvP players but likewise, having to travel to the alliance's furthest point and then do the rest on horseback is also frustrating.

Maybe the answer is to split it? Have 2 Cyrodiil maps, 1 for PvP and 1 for PvE rather than try to mix them - because that's just like Oil and Water isn't it.

Tipsy

I've completed Cyrodiil Champion during the Whitestrake's Mayhem event now & I think Cyro,as it currently is,would be pretty dull for pve only.
It would only have like 10 side quests/town & no real story for pve players.
Would rather have them make a new cyrodiil campaign post-war instance dlc with a whole new political story to it.That would be a much better experience for Pve players I think.

VaranisArano

JARTHEGREY wrote: »

I play PvE with very little interest in playing PvP (because I'm rubbish at fighting) but I do enjoy doing the daily quests, delves etc. I'm quite happy for Cyrodill to be a PvP area and I can put up with getting killed occasionally because I am 'the enemy'.

The problem (for me) in Cyrodill is the travelling and specifically - the resurrection. On occasion I've managed to get deep into the map, in my own alliance area and started doing some quests etc. Then the fighting starts, I get killed by some random and I end up resurrected in my home keep - but now, I can't travel back to where I was because it's been taken over.

I'm not saying that 'resurrecting on the spot' is the answer because I can see how that would annoy PvP players but likewise, having to travel to the alliance's furthest point and then do the rest on horseback is also frustrating.

Maybe the answer is to split it? Have 2 Cyrodiil maps, 1 for PvP and 1 for PvE rather than try to mix them - because that's just like Oil and Water isn't it.

The whole resurrecting thing is a pretty important part of the tactics of PVP.

Do we risk death to push inside a keep, knowing we'll have to hope someone puts down a forward camp or that our alliance mates rez us? Do we use the forward keep knowing that it's on a five minute cooldown? Or do we play cautiously, and maybe risk not getting inside at all? Plus there's judging the battle as to whether we've lost and I should release to find another fight. Or if I should wait there dead in hopes someone gets me up if we win.

If you don't like the time/travel penalty for Death, I'd honestly recommend questing with a group. Solo players really don't have a lot of choices when they die except release or hope someone wanders by and rezzes them. Group players will at least see when you die and can either try for the rez or drop a forward camp. It's basically "strength in numbers" + teamwork.

And this may just be my experience, but even we all die, it's a lot easier to laugh about a wipe when I'm with friends and guildmates.

Kiralyn2000

Amottica wrote: »

It is not a flaw. There is nothing to suggest that the programming of the game went haywire and created all those quests and more in Cyrodiil. It all points to a conscious and intended design the developers made just as they made a conscious decision to not have PvP in the PvE zones.

So it cannot legitimately be called a flaw.

Eh, deliberate design decisions can still result from flawed thinking or goals. "Flaw" doesn't mean "bug" or "unintentional".


Just saying. /shrug

VaranisArano

Kiralyn2000 wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

It is not a flaw. There is nothing to suggest that the programming of the game went haywire and created all those quests and more in Cyrodiil. It all points to a conscious and intended design the developers made just as they made a conscious decision to not have PvP in the PvE zones.

So it cannot legitimately be called a flaw.

Eh, deliberate design decisions can still result from flawed thinking or goals. "Flaw" doesn't mean "bug" or "unintentional".


Just saying. /shrug

You're right, though I feel compelled to note that "this car is blue" is a fundamental flaw of the car for someone who hates the color blue.

That's kind of how I see a lot of the criticisms of the "flaws" of mixed PvPvE zones that basically amount to "players can kill me." I mean, of course someone who doesn't like PVP or the interactions between enemy players during quests is going to think that it's flawed. It's fundamentally antithetical to their tastes.


For me, the flaws of mixed PvPvE have more to do with the areas where things aren't quite properly implemented and balanced. Like the inconsistency with how ZOS treats loading screen transitions in Cyrodiil towns which allows questers to be killed while in a load. Or how IC gankers are incentivized to risk no Tel Var of their own, so even when they are beaten, the victorious player doesn't get much reward.

AlnilamE

AzuraFan wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

That is a feature of the game throughout the game. An MMO needs new content, players repeating content and players doing a variety of content to survive long term. That is why gear good for PvP can only be found in PvE content and skills good for PvE can only be found in PvP. Antiquities, endeavors and other things have us returning to old zones. Events take us places we might otherwise not go.
What you see as a flaw is a necessity for the long term health of the game.

If you're saying that mixing PvE and PvP is a feature of the game, then it's a very poor feature. Of course an MMO needs new content and ways for players to repeat content (like antiquities, etc.). The game can do that and still keep PvE and PvP separate. There's no need to combine them to add new content and give players reasons to revisit zones.

As for events taking gamers places they might not otherwise go, that only works if the place the gamers go is enjoyable for them. That's obviously not true when forcing people who only want to PvE into a PvP zone. Players who enjoy PvP don't seem to understand that there are gamers who don't enjoy it and have no interest in it. It's not matter of not having tried it before. It's a matter of no interest or tried it and didn't like it.

Anyway, I don't think Cyrodiil should be changed. A poor design decision was made way back in the beginning, and it's too late to put the genie back into the bottle (though I suppose there's always hope). PvE players can either go into Cyrodiil to complete achievements, or we can move on to another game when there's nothing left but Cyrodiil PvE for us to do.

I don't agree that it's a poor feature. If we consider that say 20-30% of the playerbase are interested in PvP, at least on occasion, and only about 10% are adamantly opposed to it, that leaves 60-70% that are neutral to it and a lot of those will eventually venture into Cyrodiil for the Skyshards or quest achievements or the fishing, and having some of them engage in PvP might lead them to find that they enjoy it.

If not, they can just leave and call it a day. Nobody is forced to go to Cyrodiil. They just want the stuff that's in there, be it PvP or the other rewards.