Neutral flag in Cyrodiil for PvE players

Northwold

Coming out of another discussion, what do people think of allowing players who do Cyrodiil only for the quests or crafting to come in with a neutral flag?

They would not be allowed to engage in PvP and other players would not be able to attack them.

Quests not to award PvP rewards like alliance points.

Comms for neutral players with other players in zone to be banned to stop it being exploited for spying.

madrab73

No, the player cap is a lot lower than at launch as it is. Having a load of neutral players in won't help balance.

VaranisArano

If the neutral flag disabled every reward, like fish, achievements, AP, recipes, and skyshards, I'd maybe consider it. I'm against anything that amounts to "I want the same rewards without the intended risk."

But in terms of abusing such a flag, I assure you that I can think of a lot of uses for a "Neutral" EP player who follows around one of the enemy ball groups to call out their movements. You don't have to attack other players to abuse such a set to troll PVPers.

Scallan

It's becoming extremely tedious to see PVE players constantly asking for the PVE-ization of a fundamental pillar of the game. So much of the games narrative is tied into the Three Banners War - it is the backdrop of everything - even the ouroboros logo of the game in which you're using as an avatar is a direct reference to it. While you can personally roleplay your characters neutrality if you go into a PVP zone you are representing that alliance. Period.

Every other zone in the game is tailored to your PVE experience, you can make do with two zones being PVP-oriented. 90 percent of this games content is PVE-oriented and you don't see PVP players constantly asking for it to be PVP-ized when they're required to participate to get items, cosmetics, skill lines, etc.

Literally look up a tanky PVP build guide and just put the modicum of the effort you do into making a PVE build if you're tired of getting killed while questing, or additionally just don't play at all, but please for the love of Akatosh stop asking for this stuff every time the twice-annual PVP event rolls around.

Northwold

VaranisArano wrote: »

If the neutral flag disabled every reward, like fish, achievements, AP, recipes, and skyshards, I'd maybe consider it. I'm against anything that amounts to "I want the same rewards without the intended risk."

But in terms of abusing such a flag, I assure you that I can think of a lot of uses for a "Neutral" EP player who follows around one of the enemy ball groups to call out their movements. You don't have to attack other players to abuse such a set to troll PVPers.

Would the ban on Comms not cover that? (genuine question)

JavaRen

Since Discord exists the comm ban is insufficient.

fizl101

Northwold wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

If the neutral flag disabled every reward, like fish, achievements, AP, recipes, and skyshards, I'd maybe consider it. I'm against anything that amounts to "I want the same rewards without the intended risk."

But in terms of abusing such a flag, I assure you that I can think of a lot of uses for a "Neutral" EP player who follows around one of the enemy ball groups to call out their movements. You don't have to attack other players to abuse such a set to troll PVPers.

Would the ban on Comms not cover that? (genuine question)

You can't stop people being on discord, PSN party chat, messaging on facebook etc

Northwold

JavaRen wrote: »

Since Discord exists the comm ban is insufficient.

Well that surely applies equally to spies playing for other factions so I don't really see how that applies in the one case but not the other?

alberichtano

madrab73 wrote: »

No, the player cap is a lot lower than at launch as it is. Having a load of neutral players in won't help balance.

They are already there. They are just hiding from the fights. Why do you think you can see a padlock on pop count, but still only have a handful defending a keep?

This is a result of having PVE elements in a PVP zone. People will come to just do the delves, gather the skyshards, perhaps quest for the towns for achievements, but not wanting or being able to do actual, real PVP content. I have myself been in that position, cursing all the gankers when I just wanted to do my quests in peace.

So the white flag wouldn't really change anything, except that gankers would have to look for more worthy prey, and that PVE questers could do their quests faster and then leave faster (or learn and join PVP).

alberichtano

Scallan wrote: »

It's becoming extremely tedious to see PVE players constantly asking for the PVE-ization of a fundamental pillar of the game. So much of the games narrative is tied into the Three Banners War - it is the backdrop of everything - even the ouroboros logo of the game in which you're using as an avatar is a direct reference to it. While you can personally roleplay your characters neutrality if you go into a PVP zone you are representing that alliance. Period.

Every other zone in the game is tailored to your PVE experience, you can make do with two zones being PVP-oriented. 90 percent of this games content is PVE-oriented and you don't see PVP players constantly asking for it to be PVP-ized when they're required to participate to get items, cosmetics, skill lines, etc.

Literally look up a tanky PVP build guide and just put the modicum of the effort you do into making a PVE build if you're tired of getting killed while questing, or additionally just don't play at all, but please for the love of Akatosh stop asking for this stuff every time the twice-annual PVP event rolls around.

Make a fully PVE Cyrodiil zone. That way no one can cheat, report or misuse the white flag (which wouldn't be needed at all).

Northwold

alberichtano wrote: »

madrab73 wrote: »

No, the player cap is a lot lower than at launch as it is. Having a load of neutral players in won't help balance.

They are already there. They are just hiding from the fights. Why do you think you can see a padlock on pop count, but still only have a handful defending a keep?

This is a result of having PVE elements in a PVP zone. People will come to just do the delves, gather the skyshards, perhaps quest for the towns for achievements, but not wanting or being able to do actual, real PVP content. I have myself been in that position, cursing all the gankers when I just wanted to do my quests in peace.

So the white flag wouldn't really change anything, except that gankers would have to look for more worthy prey, and that PVE questers could do their quests faster and then leave faster (or learn and join PVP).

Yes. It is a flaw in the game design. There are PvE quests in the zone and things like crafting in the zone that are required by things like masterwrits from the PvE world. It should not have been designed that way, but it was, so PvE players are going to want the ability to go there without having to PvP, they do go there, and they get their time wasted and then some.

The other thing is that neutral players could actually watch PvP and get an idea what is going on. It would help people to start out.

Stanx

As a PVE'er, can we stop trying to change every little thing in this game to being PVE-friendly?

Most of the game is already PVE-oriented and these requests just make PVE'ers look like wet fish and bad sports.

Northwold

alberichtano wrote: »

Scallan wrote: »

It's becoming extremely tedious to see PVE players constantly asking for the PVE-ization of a fundamental pillar of the game. So much of the games narrative is tied into the Three Banners War - it is the backdrop of everything - even the ouroboros logo of the game in which you're using as an avatar is a direct reference to it. While you can personally roleplay your characters neutrality if you go into a PVP zone you are representing that alliance. Period.

Every other zone in the game is tailored to your PVE experience, you can make do with two zones being PVP-oriented. 90 percent of this games content is PVE-oriented and you don't see PVP players constantly asking for it to be PVP-ized when they're required to participate to get items, cosmetics, skill lines, etc.

Literally look up a tanky PVP build guide and just put the modicum of the effort you do into making a PVE build if you're tired of getting killed while questing, or additionally just don't play at all, but please for the love of Akatosh stop asking for this stuff every time the twice-annual PVP event rolls around.

Make a fully PVE Cyrodiil zone. That way no one can cheat, report or misuse the white flag (which wouldn't be needed at all).

That is the other really sensible option. Seems a no brainer and has been asked for before, but hasn't happened.

Agenericname

Northwold wrote: »

alberichtano wrote: »

madrab73 wrote: »

No, the player cap is a lot lower than at launch as it is. Having a load of neutral players in won't help balance.

They are already there. They are just hiding from the fights. Why do you think you can see a padlock on pop count, but still only have a handful defending a keep?

This is a result of having PVE elements in a PVP zone. People will come to just do the delves, gather the skyshards, perhaps quest for the towns for achievements, but not wanting or being able to do actual, real PVP content. I have myself been in that position, cursing all the gankers when I just wanted to do my quests in peace.

So the white flag wouldn't really change anything, except that gankers would have to look for more worthy prey, and that PVE questers could do their quests faster and then leave faster (or learn and join PVP).

Yes. It is a flaw in the game design. There are PvE quests in the zone and things like crafting in the zone that are required by things like masterwrits from the PvE world. It should not have been designed that way, but it was, so PvE players are going to want the ability to go there without having to PvP.

No, it isnt a flaw at all. I do the quests and I PvP. I also PvE. I prefer IC over Cyrodiil for quests because quite frankly, theres a story. It's one of the few zones in the game thats actually immersive. Theres a chance I may die. I need to pay at some attention to my surroundings. Its a beautiful zone.

Sturmfaenger

Want to do PVE in Cyro? Don't get that idea just while a PVP event takes place. At other times one can do PVE in Cyro mostly in peace, and if there should be an annoying ganker one should not take it personal and be patient enough to either change the campaign or return later. I'm bad at PVP and this strategy works.

Nomadic_Atmoran

alberichtano wrote: »

madrab73 wrote: »

No, the player cap is a lot lower than at launch as it is. Having a load of neutral players in won't help balance.

They are already there. They are just hiding from the fights. Why do you think you can see a padlock on pop count, but still only have a handful defending a keep?

This is a result of having PVE elements in a PVP zone. People will come to just do the delves, gather the skyshards, perhaps quest for the towns for achievements, but not wanting or being able to do actual, real PVP content. I have myself been in that position, cursing all the gankers when I just wanted to do my quests in peace.

So the white flag wouldn't really change anything, except that gankers would have to look for more worthy prey, and that PVE questers could do their quests faster and then leave faster (or learn and join PVP).

No this is a result of ESO not upgrading and expanding their database. Had they invested a little more into their infrastructure they wouldnt have needed to downgrade the player population.

Aardappelboom

I love Cyrodiil, but not because it's Cyrodiil. Because of the PVP mode, I kinda get that PVE players want to go to Cyrodiil for the lore but it shouldn't be at the cost of PVP fun.

Maybe it's time for Cyrodiil to retire and move PVP to a PVP only zone while redesigning Cyro as a lore heavy PVE zone.

But we should really stop trying to make it work for both game modes.

VaranisArano

Northwold wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

If the neutral flag disabled every reward, like fish, achievements, AP, recipes, and skyshards, I'd maybe consider it. I'm against anything that amounts to "I want the same rewards without the intended risk."

But in terms of abusing such a flag, I assure you that I can think of a lot of uses for a "Neutral" EP player who follows around one of the enemy ball groups to call out their movements. You don't have to attack other players to abuse such a set to troll PVPers.

Would the ban on Comms not cover that? (genuine question)

No.

I'd be a little surprised if ZOS agreed to force someone into complete inability to zone chat, guild chat, whisper, or mail anyone else.

But let's assume they were willing.

A "neutral" spy's point is to communicate what the other team is doing. I'll offer an example of when it happened to my EP guild: one raid night, we had two EP players following us like limpets. We started getting ambushed at keeps. The same AD guild was consistently ambushing us. When we stealthed out and hid, they knew where we were waiting. It went on like that for about an hour until we shook the limpets when they got killed in the fighting.

Now, I'm sure someone will poo-poo this as sheer happenstance, but when an AD guild we fought regularly suddenly develops clairvoyance they haven't shown before or after, and it just so happens to coincide with some EP limpets, we knew what was going on.

With a "neutral" flag, you don't even need people on the same alliance as the group you want to follow. You just follow the other group openly as a "neutral" player and no one can touch you. Then you get into voice comms with whoever you want to pass on info and tell them where the other guild is and what they are doing. As mentioned, Discord and TeamSpeak completely bypass all the in-game chat silencing. There's zero counter for this. And it's not exactly reportable behavior either.


I appreciate your willingness to think about answers, but the truth is the best way to not have neutral flagged players abuse the flag is to not give them one.

VaranisArano

Northwold wrote: »

alberichtano wrote: »

madrab73 wrote: »

No, the player cap is a lot lower than at launch as it is. Having a load of neutral players in won't help balance.

They are already there. They are just hiding from the fights. Why do you think you can see a padlock on pop count, but still only have a handful defending a keep?

This is a result of having PVE elements in a PVP zone. People will come to just do the delves, gather the skyshards, perhaps quest for the towns for achievements, but not wanting or being able to do actual, real PVP content. I have myself been in that position, cursing all the gankers when I just wanted to do my quests in peace.

So the white flag wouldn't really change anything, except that gankers would have to look for more worthy prey, and that PVE questers could do their quests faster and then leave faster (or learn and join PVP).

Yes. It is a flaw in the game design. There are PvE quests in the zone and things like crafting in the zone that are required by things like masterwrits from the PvE world. It should not have been designed that way, but it was, so PvE players are going to want the ability to go there without having to PvP, they do go there, and they get their time wasted and then some.

The other thing is that neutral players could actually watch PvP and get an idea what is going on. It would help people to start out.

Trying to learn PVP by watching as a neutral players is like trying to learn to ride a bike by watching YouTube. You gotta get up on it and try.

Cyrodiil is designed as a PvPvE zone. It's not a flaw that there's PVE stuff in the zone - it's a feature!

The quests are PvPvE quests - three of five towns are PvP flagged for heaven's sake. Any Delve Boss PVP-centric location because of the Blessing of War AP buff. Most of the skyshards require moving along PVP routes or doing delves and towns to get them, and 4 of them outright require cooperative PVP from your faction.

You can say "It never should have been that way."

All I can hear is "This content should have been designed to cater to me," and sorry, but ESO wasn't designed to cater to me either. If I want the rewards of the content, I can either play it as intended or do without.

As for the crafting stations...I'm a PVPer, and I have a trading guild with all the attunable stations for my convenient Master Writs. Nobody has to go to Cyrodiil to do their crafting - if they do, that's their choice because there's a genuinely PVE-only alternative there.

Northwold

VaranisArano wrote: »

I appreciate your willingness to think about answers, but the truth is the best way to not have neutral flagged players abuse the flag is to not give them one.

Fair response. Personally my only real annoyance with Cyro, which I've tried but just don't like (I don't care about the quests), is that i keep getting masterwrits there which is a total ballache. They can solve that by stopping the damned masterwrits from sending you to Cyro or make it easier by not asking you to take the entire armoury just to use a bloody crafting station.

But I was quite surprised to read the other thread in which people were talking about ganking quest players. It's unnecessary behaviour that makes the game feel unpleasant to new players and in Cyro it's also disrespectful of other people's time seeing as you get blasted back to the nearest keep/outpost your alliance holds.

VaranisArano

Aardappelboom wrote: »

I love Cyrodiil, but not because it's Cyrodiil. Because of the PVP mode, I kinda get that PVE players want to go to Cyrodiil for the lore but it shouldn't be at the cost of PVP fun.

Maybe it's time for Cyrodiil to retire and move PVP to a PVP only zone while redesigning Cyro as a lore heavy PVE zone.

But we should really stop trying to make it work for both game modes.

I also love Cyrodiil for its PVP and actually enjoy the PvPvE questing, fishing, and skyshards, so I'm really confused as to why I should have to lose this zone to retirement in favor of some "new" pasture that's totally greener on the other side of that hill.

All I want is for Cyrodiil performance to be fixed.

jaws343

Northwold wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

I appreciate your willingness to think about answers, but the truth is the best way to not have neutral flagged players abuse the flag is to not give them one.

Fair response. Personally my only real annoyance with Cyro, which I've tried but just don't like (I don't care about the quests), is that i keep getting masterwrits there which is a total ballache. They can solve that by stopping the damned masterwrits from sending you to Cyro or make it easier by not asking you to take the entire armoury just to use a bloody crafting station.

But I was quite surprised to read the other thread in which people were talking about ganking quest players. It's unnecessary behaviour that makes the game feel unpleasant to new players and in Cyro it's also disrespectful of other people's time seeing as you get blasted back to the nearest keep/outpost your alliance holds.

The majority of people doing masterwrits do them through their guild houses. But also, you could just sell ones you don't wish to do rather than fundamentally changing a zone because you don't like it.

Northwold

jaws343 wrote: »

The majority of people doing masterwrits do them through their guild houses. But also, you could just sell ones you don't wish to do rather than fundamentally changing a zone because you don't like it.

If I thought my way was the only way I'd have phrased the poll in the standard internet way of "yes because I am awesome", "no because I am a loser". Which would not be a useful poll for anyone but no doubt keeps the more adolescent posters happy. There's no point in making changes to an MMO that a majority of players (albeit a self selected subsection of players) actually don't want. It's an MMO. If the playerbase falls out of love with it, the game ceases to exist.

MEBengalsFan2001

Northwold wrote: »

Coming out of another discussion, what do people think of allowing players who do Cyrodiil only for the quests or crafting to come in with a neutral flag?

They would not be allowed to engage in PvP and other players would not be able to attack them.

Quests not to award PvP rewards like alliance points.

Comms for neutral players with other players in zone to be banned to stop it being exploited for spying.

I would be fine with it given how this year story seems to be around peace and another group not wanting peace. I would be ok with that coming into play given this year story line for the game.

Aardappelboom

VaranisArano wrote: »

Aardappelboom wrote: »

I love Cyrodiil, but not because it's Cyrodiil. Because of the PVP mode, I kinda get that PVE players want to go to Cyrodiil for the lore but it shouldn't be at the cost of PVP fun.

Maybe it's time for Cyrodiil to retire and move PVP to a PVP only zone while redesigning Cyro as a lore heavy PVE zone.

But we should really stop trying to make it work for both game modes.

I also love Cyrodiil for its PVP and actually enjoy the PvPvE questing, fishing, and skyshards, so I'm really confused as to why I should have to lose this zone to retirement in favor of some "new" pasture that's totally greener on the other side of that hill.

All I want is for Cyrodiil performance to be fixed.

I'm not really saying anything is greener on the other side, I'm just saying split it up before they come up with some half-assed in-between solution to do good for both sides.

I am very curious though, what is it exactly you like about the combination, if there never was any fishing, questing or skysharding in Cyrodiil, would you never go there to play PVP?

My only reason for going there for PVE would be achievements, there's no real story and the delves could be integrated into the rest of the game if they really wanted to. If not for the achievements I wouldn't go there for PVE, just PVP.

That's why I think, while some of these activities might be enjoying, they are not what makes Cyrodiil great.

I will admit that the zone (IC included) fits the whole "nations at war" idea very nicely. That would be the only reason why I'd like for it to stay that way.

This is all personal opinion of course.

Vevvev

If there was to be a "neutral" faction it should be like nanite systems in Planetside 1 and 2. It's either there to cause chaos or bolster the ranks of the lowest population faction. It is not there to avoid fighting but to provoke more of it.

VaranisArano

Northwold wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

I appreciate your willingness to think about answers, but the truth is the best way to not have neutral flagged players abuse the flag is to not give them one.

Fair response. Personally my only real annoyance with Cyro, which I've tried but just don't like, is that i keep getting masterwrits there which is a total ballache. They can solve that by stopping the damned masterwrits from sending you to Cyro or make it easier by not asking you to take the entire armoury just to use a bloody crafting station.

But I was quite surprised to read the other thread in which people were talking about ganking quest players. It's unnecessary behaviour that makes the game feel unpleasant to new players and in Cyro it's also disrespectful of other people's time seeing as you get blasted back to the nearest keep/outpost your alliance holds.

Crafter suggestion: if you've got a spare guild slot, finding one that has all the crafting stations in their guild house was an absolute revelation for me with Master Writs. I did like 50 in one go to get my achievement, so just running around the same Coldharbor house to get it done was so, so much better than zoning all over.


As for being disrespectful of time, is it disrespectful of a Justice System guard to catch you and take all the loot you just spent 15 minutes stealing?

Unlike some games, ESO doesn't really prepare PVEers to lose. This isn't Dark Souls.

So we wind up with a PVP experience where players who expect their ticket quests to be a literal walk in the park suddenly lose for maybe the first time in their game experience. They don't lose gold or gear. Just time and pride.

Anyone who queues up for a PVP zone is fair game anywhere. Everyone can and will die. Especially the PVPers - we die all the time. The only thing you'll lose is time and pride. That can be pretty unpleasant - I had a mantra of "I'm going to die and that's okay!" when I first tried Cyrodiil.

Disrespectful? If you feel disrespected by PVP happening during a PVP event in a PvPvE zone...well, I'm not surprised that the event feels unpleasant, but there really isn't a solution for that. I suggest having realistic expectations that PVP is going to happen in a PvPvE zone during a PVP event, and remembering that everyone dies and that's okay!

Northwold

VaranisArano wrote: »

sant - I had a mantra of "I'm going to die and that's okay!" when I first tried Cyrodiil.

Disrespectful? If you feel disrespected by PVP happening during a PVP event in a PvPvE zone...well, I'm not surprised that the event feels unpleasant, but there really isn't a solution for that. I suggest having realistic expectations that PVP is going to happen in a PvPvE zone during a PVP event, and remembering that everyone dies and that's okay!

The disrespect is in the behaviour talked about in various threads of people hiding stealthed around quest givers / return points to kill people while they are in the quest dialogue screen. That's beyond fair game into being plain spiteful.

My own experiences in Cyro have largely been fair game. Either I'm dabbling and get killed, which is what the zone is for, or I'll get killed once going to the crafting armoury and then the enemy has got it the second time and let me be, often with friendly tells. While annoying, I don't think that's predatory in the slightest. Indeed, it's quite sporting and what I would expect.

Sagetim

Would this work for PVP player to do PVE content???? so PVP can just walk trough the game and not have to make a build to get the end items???

EdmondDontes

Northwold wrote: »

Coming out of another discussion, what do people think of allowing players who do Cyrodiil only for the quests or crafting to come in with a neutral flag?

They would not be allowed to engage in PvP and other players would not be able to attack them.

Quests not to award PvP rewards like alliance points.

Comms for neutral players with other players in zone to be banned to stop it being exploited for spying.

Staaaaaaaaaaap!

ESO is a PvP game too. Accept it and please stop coming up with suggestions to eliminate PvP from ESO.

VaranisArano

Aardappelboom wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Aardappelboom wrote: »

I love Cyrodiil, but not because it's Cyrodiil. Because of the PVP mode, I kinda get that PVE players want to go to Cyrodiil for the lore but it shouldn't be at the cost of PVP fun.

Maybe it's time for Cyrodiil to retire and move PVP to a PVP only zone while redesigning Cyro as a lore heavy PVE zone.

But we should really stop trying to make it work for both game modes.

I also love Cyrodiil for its PVP and actually enjoy the PvPvE questing, fishing, and skyshards, so I'm really confused as to why I should have to lose this zone to retirement in favor of some "new" pasture that's totally greener on the other side of that hill.

All I want is for Cyrodiil performance to be fixed.

I'm not really saying anything is greener on the other side, I'm just saying split it up before they come up with some half-assed in-between solution to do good for both sides.

I am very curious though, what is it exactly you like about the combination, if there never was any fishing, questing or skysharding in Cyrodiil, would you never go there to play PVP?

Now I'd go there to play PVP. PVP is most of what I do in Cyrodiil.

That wasn't the case when I started playing, though.

I first went to Cyrodiil for Master Angler. Hated the idea of PVP at the time, because I'd come to ESO from Skyrim and this was my first MMO. Got my fish and left, never to return. Except I came back for quests, achievements, then skyshards. Eventually I decided to try PVP. Zergsurfed for a while then found a good guild. Now I write PVP guides, LOL.

What I like about the combination is the tension and the risk that I can't get outside of Cyrodiil and Imperial City. Nowhere else do I buff up while fishing to discourage gankers or put on a Xivkyn disguise in hopes that enemy players will mistake me for an NPC. Nowhere else am I on high alert riding to a skyshard or hitting the dirt the second I see another player. Nowhere else do I get the same frission of danger and the unknown as I go blindly into a delve not knowing if I face a boss or an enemy player who'll be a magnitude harder. Nowhere else do I face genuine consequences for failure or losing a fight.

Now, everything I listed is also exactly why PvPvE doesn't appeal to some players.

I get that. Like I said, I used to be that sort of player. If you'd offered me a PVE-only version of Cyrodiil back in 2015 so I could get my Master Angler, I'd have done it in a heartbeat.

And I probably wouldn't be a PVPer today. So I'm not minded to give up the gameplay I enjoy. Nor am I interested in closing off the road that led me into PVP.