Neutral flag in Cyrodiil for PvE players

Odovacar · February 2022

Well you know what the pact says...if you're not EP you're AP.

Seriously though, lol...If you venture into Cyrodiil you have to at least give it a try...

VaranisArano · February 2022

Northwold wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

sant - I had a mantra of "I'm going to die and that's okay!" when I first tried Cyrodiil.

Disrespectful? If you feel disrespected by PVP happening during a PVP event in a PvPvE zone...well, I'm not surprised that the event feels unpleasant, but there really isn't a solution for that. I suggest having realistic expectations that PVP is going to happen in a PvPvE zone during a PVP event, and remembering that everyone dies and that's okay!

The disrespect is in the behaviour talked about in various threads of people hiding stealthed around quest givers / return points to kill people while they are in the quest dialogue screen. That's beyond fair game into being plain spiteful.

My own experiences in Cyro have largely been fair game. Either I'm dabbling and get killed, which is what the zone is for, or I'll get killed once going to the crafting armoury and then the enemy has got it the second time and let me be, often with friendly tells. While annoying, I don't think that's predatory in the slightest. Indeed, it's quite sporting and what I would expect.

I'll put it this way: I try not to kill people questing in towns, but I've never thought it disrespectful when I get killed questing in a town. Or indeed any time I die in Cyrodiil.

It's a PvPvE zone. Every enemy player is fair game at any time. I queued up for the zone, so I accept that's how it's played.

Gederic · February 2022

No, if you are so resolutely against PvP then you sacrifice what else is in Cyrodiil and stay in exclusively PvE zones. Otherwise step outside of the comfort zone and accept that if you want to do things in Cyrodiil there is a risk and a reward.

This game hasn't had real PvP content added since Morrowind and a PvP zone hasn't been added since the Imperial City so many years ago. If anything there needs to be more PvP related content and performance fixes finally done for Cyrodiil not the introduction of a new system that will only complicate and create new issues.

If the worst thing that happens to you is that you get ganked while doing quests in Cropsford I think you'll be okay and if they stay there and camp you then you move along to another dead campaign. There is no need to add an exclusively PvE element to the PvP zone.

Counter offer since so very many of these type of threads come out during Mayhem: an invade mechanic ala Dark Souls is added and PvPers can now invade your instance of a quest or trial and brutally murder your squad.

Alinhbo_Tyaka · February 2022

Northwold wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

I appreciate your willingness to think about answers, but the truth is the best way to not have neutral flagged players abuse the flag is to not give them one.

Fair response. Personally my only real annoyance with Cyro, which I've tried but just don't like (I don't care about the quests), is that i keep getting masterwrits there which is a total ballache. They can solve that by stopping the damned masterwrits from sending you to Cyro or make it easier by not asking you to take the entire armoury just to use a bloody crafting station.

But I was quite surprised to read the other thread in which people were talking about ganking quest players. It's unnecessary behaviour that makes the game feel unpleasant to new players and in Cyro it's also disrespectful of other people's time seeing as you get blasted back to the nearest keep/outpost your alliance holds.

The amount of and effect of ganking at quest locations is exaggerated. I say this as a PvE only player who with the exception of this time goes into Cyrodill for every MYM (I'm not playing ESO at all at the moment). Yes it does happen but all it takes is a comment in zone chat that someone is ganking PvE players and PvP types will almost always show up to take care of the problem. After being killed the ganker usually doesn't return and questing returns to normal.

Now there will be times that it can be hard to quest due to the map being in another alliance's favor. When this occurs I'll jump to another instance, come back later or just run a scouting mission to get my event tickets. I've also successfully quested when quest locations aren't owned by my alliance without being killed. The key is if you are a pet class put them away, don't engage any NPC's and be obvious. Most, though not all, PvP players, will leave you alone as there isn't really any fun in killing someone who just stands there without fighting back.

So from a PvE only player, no there is no reason to take Cyrodiil and make it easier for PvE players. While I might not be able to run every quest every time I go into the area I can complete enough to earn my event tickets plus some AP on the side. All with never having to actually participate in PvP and with a minimal risk of death. In fact there are times when I'm all the way across the map when I wish I could find a PvP type to kill me for a faster trip back to my alliance base.

RisenEclipse · February 2022

As a PvE player who currently is trying to get THAT LAST BLOODY SKYSHARD FROM BEYOND THE AD GATE! JUST LET ME IN YOU STUPID BUMBLEBEES! I dont think Cyrodiil should be a PvE zone... I get the idea. I REALLY get the idea of wanting to make a safe zone for PvErs, but please don't. This game has already dumped a lot of crap onto PvPers. In fact I am doing everything I can right now to help my faction open those stupid gates so I can get my skyshards. I did the most nauseous, boring, migraine inducing scroll run the other night across the map because that's apparently what you do in the PvP zone. To me PvP is like going into a vet dungeons. You gotta be geared for it. You gotta know what you're doing. Or you're going to die horribly and it's not very fun. Which is why you practice. Make a new character. Hop in the below level 50 Cyrodiil area. It's what it's for. Practice. Kinda like normal level for dungeons.But PvPers have to literally do so much PvE content in this game. Every ticket event, (except the rare MYM and IC event) is literally just PvE. If they want that golden scale skin, or that golden dragon pet, they have to either spend ridiculous amount of money buying tickets from the store... or PvE. What I think should happen is that PvP should start appealing more to PvErs. Because it just isn't.

Fix the performance issues in the PvP zones, and add more content to them. Make it really fun for everyone to PvP. Every year PvErs get two new dungeon DLCs, a whole chapter zone, and a DLC zone. What have the PvPers gotten? Nadda. Maybe what they need is a few new things for them too. Maybe a new PvP zone. Or new shiny things dropped in IC and Cyrodill that is more then just a new motif. In fact I think the year long chapter content should be more like this: dungeon dlc, chapter, pvp shiny thing, dlc chapter. Maybe then I'd even start getting more involved in PvP. It's a part of the game that I don't really get involved with, and I want to get involved with everything!

But this is just my two cents on the issue. :P

kargen27 · February 2022

alberichtano wrote: »

Scallan wrote: »

It's becoming extremely tedious to see PVE players constantly asking for the PVE-ization of a fundamental pillar of the game. So much of the games narrative is tied into the Three Banners War - it is the backdrop of everything - even the ouroboros logo of the game in which you're using as an avatar is a direct reference to it. While you can personally roleplay your characters neutrality if you go into a PVP zone you are representing that alliance. Period.

Every other zone in the game is tailored to your PVE experience, you can make do with two zones being PVP-oriented. 90 percent of this games content is PVE-oriented and you don't see PVP players constantly asking for it to be PVP-ized when they're required to participate to get items, cosmetics, skill lines, etc.

Literally look up a tanky PVP build guide and just put the modicum of the effort you do into making a PVE build if you're tired of getting killed while questing, or additionally just don't play at all, but please for the love of Akatosh stop asking for this stuff every time the twice-annual PVP event rolls around.

Make a fully PVE Cyrodiil zone. That way no one can cheat, report or misuse the white flag (which wouldn't be needed at all).

That wouldn't be good for the game. PvP needs new players. Players going to Cyrodiil for events, skills and PvE achievements is often a players first introduction to PvP. Some decide they like it and return. With a PvE only instance there would be less incentive for players to try PvP.

hafgood · February 2022

No, leave PvP as PvP, let PvErs learn how to PvP

axi · February 2022

Northwold wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

If the neutral flag disabled every reward, like fish, achievements, AP, recipes, and skyshards, I'd maybe consider it. I'm against anything that amounts to "I want the same rewards without the intended risk."

But in terms of abusing such a flag, I assure you that I can think of a lot of uses for a "Neutral" EP player who follows around one of the enemy ball groups to call out their movements. You don't have to attack other players to abuse such a set to troll PVPers.

Would the ban on Comms not cover that? (genuine question)

It would be both annoying and inefficient. Annoying because being in Cyro for few hours without the option to chat with friends, guildmates or even strangers sucks and inefficient because voice communicators exist.

axi · February 2022

Seriously sometimes I think that ZoS should finally make a statement that PvE Cyrodill will never happen just to stop that topic.

ArcVelarian · February 2022

I think we need a PvE version of Cyrodiil at this point.

Ascarl · February 2022

VaranisArano wrote: »

But in terms of abusing such a flag, I assure you that I can think of a lot of uses for a "Neutral" EP player who follows around one of the enemy ball groups to call out their movements. You don't have to attack other players to abuse such a set to troll PVPers.

You don't need any rule change for this kind if behavior. I have seen many players grabbing a relic or hammer and running straight towards the enemy.

Hapexamendios · February 2022

No need to change what isn't broken. All PVE goal are achievable as is.

dem0n1k · February 2022

Zapp Brannigan: What makes a man turn neutral? Lust for gold? Power? Or were you just born with a heart full of neutrality?

S0Z0H · February 2022

The best to do pve quests and things in Cyrodiil is to be a nightblade or vampire or some combo of the two. These have invisibility skill and passives you can unlock. So that's how you may have to approach it

AzuraFan · February 2022

Agenericname wrote: »

No, it isnt a flaw at all. I do the quests and I PvP. I also PvE.

I see it as a flaw. If it wasn't, there wouldn't be so much angst over wanting to quest in the zone without having to PvP. The flaw, to me, is that there are achievements that combine achievements from PvE zones and Cyrodiil. For example, you must complete five questing achievements to get the overall grand achievement, and one of the questing achievements is in Cyrodiil. So you can do all the PvE quests and you still can't get the grand achievement. Why are there even quests in a PvP zone?

The designers should have kept PvP and PvE separate, in zones, achievements, quests, everything.

I see this flaw as similar to the "putting story quests into dungeons" flaw. Another disaster that causes a lot of angst among a specific group of gamers: soloers and those who don't want to rush dungeons.

Having said all that, I don't think Cyrodiil should change. But for me the flaws tarnish the game and obviously cause angst for a significant number of players. That's a design failure.

kargen27 · March 2022

"I see it as a flaw. If it wasn't, there wouldn't be so much angst over wanting to quest in the zone without having to PvP. The flaw, to me, is that there are achievements that combine achievements from PvE zones and Cyrodiil."

That is a feature of the game throughout the game. An MMO needs new content, players repeating content and players doing a variety of content to survive long term. That is why gear good for PvP can only be found in PvE content and skills good for PvE can only be found in PvP. Antiquities, endeavors and other things have us returning to old zones. Events take us places we might otherwise not go.
What you see as a flaw is a necessity for the long term health of the game.

Zama666 · March 2022

I mostly play PVE... but don't dilute PvP!!!

I gotta learn!

Kiralyn2000 · March 2022

Scallan wrote: »

It's becoming extremely tedious to see PVE players constantly asking for the PVE-ization of a fundamental pillar of the game. So much of the games narrative is tied into the Three Banners War - it is the backdrop of everything - even the ouroboros logo of the game in which you're using as an avatar is a direct reference to it. While you can personally roleplay your characters neutrality if you go into a PVP zone you are representing that alliance. Period.

Eh, you can have a storyline built around war without it being PvP.

That said, as a PvE-only player who's never set foot in Cyro since I started in 2016... no, I don't agree with the OP's idea. Because, as others have said, there's a population limit on the zone. Having PvE'ers and tourists taking up space in that isn't good. (of course, I also think it's not good under the current system - they're still taking up space that an actual PvPer could use. They just can be kicked in the head if someone actually finds them out in the wilderness.)

As an old Oblivion player, it'd be nice to see Cyro. But as long as it's a PvP zone, I'll never see it. Oh, well. /shrug

(and no, it's not a case of "just try it, you might find that you like it!" I played PvP and/or 'PvE with random jerks griefing you' in other games in the past. I've grown to dislike it more and more over the years. I'm just not a competitive player, and I don't find anything "interesting" "challenging" or "more tense and immersive" about the looming threat of some wandering toughguy curb-stomping me while I'm picking flowers or taking screenshots.)

AlnilamE · March 2022

Northwold wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

I appreciate your willingness to think about answers, but the truth is the best way to not have neutral flagged players abuse the flag is to not give them one.

Fair response. Personally my only real annoyance with Cyro, which I've tried but just don't like (I don't care about the quests), is that i keep getting masterwrits there which is a total ballache. They can solve that by stopping the damned masterwrits from sending you to Cyro or make it easier by not asking you to take the entire armoury just to use a bloody crafting station.

A lot of guilds have all the crafting stations in their "guild hall". Are you in any guilds?

Alternatively, you can get attunable stations for those crafting stations yourself if you don't want to be in a guild. That way, you only need to go to the crafting station once and then just do all the crafting writs for those in your home.

Another option is to sell writs for stations you can't/don't want to access.

But seriously, join a guild that has all crafting stations and just do your master writs in the guild hall. It's so much more convenient.

AlnilamE · March 2022

RisenEclipse wrote: »

As a PvE player who currently is trying to get THAT LAST BLOODY SKYSHARD FROM BEYOND THE AD GATE! JUST LET ME IN YOU STUPID BUMBLEBEES!

Have you set the campaign as your home and turned on Cyrodiil notifications?

Also, during the PvP event, some of the maps will be night-capped for a particular faction. So if you are on in the morning, check out the various campaigns and hopefully one will have the gate you need open.

That's with I did with my characters and they all have the skyshards behind enemy gates, even if they don't have any other Cyro skyshards.

SilverBride · March 2022

Cyrodiil is a war zone and is not a safe place for civilians.

AzuraFan · March 2022

kargen27 wrote: »

That is a feature of the game throughout the game. An MMO needs new content, players repeating content and players doing a variety of content to survive long term. That is why gear good for PvP can only be found in PvE content and skills good for PvE can only be found in PvP. Antiquities, endeavors and other things have us returning to old zones. Events take us places we might otherwise not go.
What you see as a flaw is a necessity for the long term health of the game.

If you're saying that mixing PvE and PvP is a feature of the game, then it's a very poor feature. Of course an MMO needs new content and ways for players to repeat content (like antiquities, etc.). The game can do that and still keep PvE and PvP separate. There's no need to combine them to add new content and give players reasons to revisit zones.

As for events taking gamers places they might not otherwise go, that only works if the place the gamers go is enjoyable for them. That's obviously not true when forcing people who only want to PvE into a PvP zone. Players who enjoy PvP don't seem to understand that there are gamers who don't enjoy it and have no interest in it. It's not matter of not having tried it before. It's a matter of no interest or tried it and didn't like it.

Anyway, I don't think Cyrodiil should be changed. A poor design decision was made way back in the beginning, and it's too late to put the genie back into the bottle (though I suppose there's always hope). PvE players can either go into Cyrodiil to complete achievements, or we can move on to another game when there's nothing left but Cyrodiil PvE for us to do.

Vonkarolinas · March 2022

How about just remove PVE content from the PVP zones? That never really made sense to begin with.

Sylvermynx · March 2022

Thing is, it's NOT Cyrodiil from Oblivion. It's a huge empty zone where there's nothing going on unless you really want to pvp. I ran 4 characters through there for Master Angler - I never got ganked, and the only times I saw op fac characters were when they were FISHING WITH ME.

If you really want to enjoy Cyrodiil, play Oblivion. ESO's version is.... silly and stupid. Unless of course your whole enjoyment in life is killing other players.

That's not something I have any interest in. And.... I don't need the skyshards. I have plenty without. Since I have ZERO interest in achievements, I'm not missing out there either. Seriously people - there's nothing of enough importance in PVP Cyro to feed all this angst among pve players. Unless you're just miffed because there's this area you think is the holy grail and it's being withheld because "you might get killed by someone".

Gah. Stupid and silly.

peacenote · March 2022

VaranisArano wrote: »

Now, everything I listed is also exactly why PvPvE doesn't appeal to some players.

I get that. Like I said, I used to be that sort of player. If you'd offered me a PVE-only version of Cyrodiil back in 2015 so I could get my Master Angler, I'd have done it in a heartbeat.

And I probably wouldn't be a PVPer today. So I'm not minded to give up the gameplay I enjoy. Nor am I interested in closing off the road that led me into PVP.

Agree with everything you've said but quoting this as I think it's the most important part.

weins201 · March 2022

Nope sorry it is easy enough to do Quests here, curious why you are looking at this during a Mayhem Event / Double Rewards - so your motive suspect.

Blinx · March 2022

I think events like these is the perfect time to go get your skyshards, it took a lot of campaign swapping but I managed to snag them all, and I was only at 6 before the event.
The hardest were the 2 in each of the keeps, so I had to keep checking on and off, finally snagged them tho my heart was racing, and I was scared someone would get me en route but no one did.

The questing in the 5 districts/towns is where I got ganked 3 times, but it was 3/50, so I' not complaining.

The most frustrating part for me was getting the dolmens, once you discover their locations they show active, but it takes like 10-15 mins to get there, and a few times, I was greeted with dead daedra when I arrived, yet get them all I did, I always wanted that "Savior of Nirn" title

It may be platform specific, but on Xbox, I'd say Cyrodiil is very doable PVE wise, now Imperial City on the other hand, oof!

***Cy is fine just the way it is**

FeedbackOnly · March 2022

Battlegrounds daily is easy to do
Scouting mission is safe

Dark_Lord_Kuro · March 2022

They should definitly get separed instance
Pvp should never have been forced to accomplish pve objective in what is really a pvp enabled pve zone

Most poeple dont gain anything to have them mixt together

Easiest solution?
A new campain where:
Pvp is disabled
Ap gain is disable(maybe give just enough so new player know it exist but not enough for it to be used

Telvar multiplyer is disable
Telvar loss on death is raised to 80% or more
(This would make telvar still obtainable but at a much more tedious pace than in pvp)
Gates are opened by defeating really strong bosses

This come from a pvp rank 46 player so no im not afraid of pvp, im just a person that when questing most of the time dont feel like doing pvp at the time or vice versa

Amottica · March 2022

They would take up space.

It is also very clear that Zenimax purposely places those quests, dungeons, dolmens, skills, all those sky shards, and an additional 50 skill points into PvP. They should stick to their sound vision and there is really no reason for that to change.

Northwold wrote: »

alberichtano wrote: »

madrab73 wrote: »

No, the player cap is a lot lower than at launch as it is. Having a load of neutral players in won't help balance.

They are already there. They are just hiding from the fights. Why do you think you can see a padlock on pop count, but still only have a handful defending a keep?

This is a result of having PVE elements in a PVP zone. People will come to just do the delves, gather the skyshards, perhaps quest for the towns for achievements, but not wanting or being able to do actual, real PVP content. I have myself been in that position, cursing all the gankers when I just wanted to do my quests in peace.

So the white flag wouldn't really change anything, except that gankers would have to look for more worthy prey, and that PVE questers could do their quests faster and then leave faster (or learn and join PVP).

Yes. It is a flaw in the game design. There are PvE quests in the zone and things like crafting in the zone that are required by things like masterwrits from the PvE world. It should not have been designed that way, but it was, so PvE players are going to want the ability to go there without having to PvP, they do go there, and they get their time wasted and then some.

The other thing is that neutral players could actually watch PvP and get an idea what is going on. It would help people to start out.

It is not a flaw. There is nothing to suggest that the programming of the game went haywire and created all those quests and more in Cyrodiil. It all points to a conscious and intended design the developers made just as they made a conscious decision to not have PvP in the PvE zones.

So it cannot legitimately be called a flaw.