PTS Update 33 - Feedback Thread for Account Wide Achievements

KMarble

Jaraal wrote: »

KMarble wrote: »

Wolfkeks wrote: »

Did we have the Q&A already? I don't anything on the dev tracker 😄

I have a sinking feeling that we'll only see this Q&A at the 11th hour.

I don’t need to see the Q&A at this point. I already got the answer in the patch notes, that they fixed one of potentially hundreds of bugged quests. That tells me that this mess is a done deal.

Same, my tree-sap friend.

SnowP

Dark_Lord_Kuro wrote: »

Could be a result of unlocking then relocking the acheivement, if so it wont happen on live

Sorry to smash your hopes but if the code of v7.3.3 would hit the live server - that is exactly what will happen.
I testest in week one of PTS and today. On week one I had the NA charackter copy and today is the first time I used the EU character copy. So there was no unlocking and relocking at all.

Mephit wrote: »

I've never coded a game like this, but I have coded (mostly an architect these days) for large financial companies for over 30 years.

They are fixing forward.

The more detailed designers / coders know they have messed up, and know they should step backwards, but they won't be allowed to.

It is a "copy and paste bodge job", and they naively thought they could get away with it. Someone probably thought they were being "smart".

But the weirdest thing is they still don't understand the implications this has on the base game, and they clearly didn't test it.

It's mind boggling.

So, they are slapping band-aids on bad code that arose due to a bad design, and they will keep doing it.

The promised Q&A was intended as a distraction / delaying tactic.

I cancelled my ESO+ when this was first announced (expires later today), cos I could no longer invest in a company that was using my money to make their product worse.

I think Mephit is quit right at least in these points:

• They are fixing forward.
• The more detailed designers / coders know they have messed up. (At least I hope so)
• They still don't understand the implications this has on the base game.
• They clearly didn't test. (At least did not playtest it)

What I do not get is that no product owner a.k.a. manager says stop.
How long is the backlog of the programmers fixing bugs in ESO 1000 Bugs, 5000 Bugs, 10,000 Bugs?
And now adding a feature that in it's current implementation will drive some customers away and will not attcract any new customers as it is a base game feature, but will add e.g. 500 Bugs on top? Just WHY?

Dark_Lord_Kuro

silvereyes wrote: »

Dark_Lord_Kuro wrote: »

SnowP wrote: »

Here are some Tests on the PTS v7.3.3 using a clean Char not used on the PTS before:

Wrothgar
Achievement is char dependent, but when starting the quest and displaying Agra Crun, it is not marked in the achievement.


Kari`s List Thieves Guild
Achievement is char dependent, but as you can see below charater wide benefits are still removed - you get no advancement in the skill line when earning the achievement.
pre:

post:


It seems to me that the buggy code of v7.3.0 was only a little tweaked instead of using the working code that we have on live right now. That is a very bad decision in my oppinion.

Could be a result of unlocking then relocking the acheivement, if so it wont happen on live

Or, it could just as easily be indicative of a deeper problem, like not reverting all the code / data tables that need reverting, and that could easily get propagated to the live server. I wouldn't dismiss the symptoms out of hand, if I were ZOS. It's always worth looking a little deeper for root causes.

Easy to test for zos tough
Make a na character copy before the end of pts
If my hypotesis hold true, it should solve itself out since character woulnt unlock then relock acheivement

Dark_Lord_Kuro

SnowP wrote: »

Dark_Lord_Kuro wrote: »

Could be a result of unlocking then relocking the acheivement, if so it wont happen on live

Sorry to smash your hopes but if the code of v7.3.3 would hit the live server - that is exactly what will happen.
I testest in week one of PTS and today. On week one I had the NA charackter copy and today is the first time I used the EU character copy. So there was no unlocking and relocking at all.

Wasnt the eu character copy last week?
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/598203/pts-patch-notes-v7-3-2#latest

At the very least it should be easy to test it out for zos with another na copy before the end of pts

silvereyes

Dark_Lord_Kuro wrote: »

silvereyes wrote: »

Dark_Lord_Kuro wrote: »

SnowP wrote: »

Here are some Tests on the PTS v7.3.3 using a clean Char not used on the PTS before:

Wrothgar
Achievement is char dependent, but when starting the quest and displaying Agra Crun, it is not marked in the achievement.


Kari`s List Thieves Guild
Achievement is char dependent, but as you can see below charater wide benefits are still removed - you get no advancement in the skill line when earning the achievement.
pre:

post:


It seems to me that the buggy code of v7.3.0 was only a little tweaked instead of using the working code that we have on live right now. That is a very bad decision in my oppinion.

Could be a result of unlocking then relocking the acheivement, if so it wont happen on live

Or, it could just as easily be indicative of a deeper problem, like not reverting all the code / data tables that need reverting, and that could easily get propagated to the live server. I wouldn't dismiss the symptoms out of hand, if I were ZOS. It's always worth looking a little deeper for root causes.

Easy to test for zos tough
Make a na character copy before the end of pts
If my hypotesis hold true, it should solve itself out since character woulnt unlock then relock acheivement

@SnowP already said that this was from a clean EU character copy, never used on PTS before PTS v7.3.3. They hadn't logged in to the EU characters until PTS v7.3.3, despite the fact that the character copy was there last week. They should have had no account-wide achievements yet to conflict with.

I suppose it's possible that a DBA mangled the PTS data, even with accounts that hadn't logged in to PTS yet, but I think it more likely that they just missed something.

At any rate, ZOS can query the db directly and see the code to trace down the exact cause. No need to rely on PTS at all, and they shouldn't wait until next week to investigate anyways.

KMarble

Kesstryl wrote: »

I just cancelled my sub and have two weeks left on it. That's two weeks to see if they will somehow either fix this mess, or push it back until they fix it. Their actions will determine if I resub or not. I was planning to pre-order High Isle, but I'll wait on that now too. I don't care about getting a stupid fawn pet or elk mount when the individuality of my characters is being gutted. I have no reason to play until that is preserved. I might delete a character and make a power leveled avatar who has done no other achievements to check in on my guild and preserve the history of my actual characters by never touching them again. My husband has wanted to try another MMORPG with me, one that does preserve individual character data (Final Fantasy XIV,) and I think we will do the trial for that one and possibly find a new game to actively play and spend money on. As for Elder Scrolls, I'll replay the single player games to visit Tamriel, and remember when the ancestors of my characters were once part of that world. Maybe I'll mod in my Vestige as a companion in one of them since vestiges are immortal. I just can't right now with this game.

For now my plan is to park all of my characters, aside from my first. My sub expires in either March or May and won't be renewed. I won't buy the chapter because I think a price tag of $40.00 is too high for an expansion that will only be fully playable once.

I might buy the chapter when it goes on sale in the fall. That is, if I'm still playing at the point. (I have a tendency of quitting something and never looking back)

I invested a lot of money in this game. I don't play any other game, but I bought a desktop, gaming mouse, updated the GC... aside from buying all the chapters so far and the sub for years just so I could play ESO better. As of now I feel like that money was wasted.

tomofhyrule wrote: »

So I’m nervous about this patch. We’ve found the bugs that are still unaddressed, but there’s just silence now. ZOS doesn’t exactly have a track record of smooth patch-day releases (and I’m unlucky enough to keep getting hit by them), so if there is something that goes wrong… how will they fix it? As we see on PTS, there’s no ‘recopy’ they can do. And now, this isn’t ‘oh, it only affected a few accounts,’ it’ll be affecting every account and every character on those accounts. That’s months of manually fixing it all… or a total server rollback.

They won't fix anything because there will be nothing to fall back on. Not only will all achievements be added together, judging from some of the posts in the AWA bug thread, there will be no other database to check against.

I've never heard of a rollback of this magnitude before. Six servers and a huge amount of activity happening every second (many being RNG dependent - imagine if you get that one drop you've been trying to get for years, and then learning the server will have a rollback).

IMO AWA is a point of no return. It will change the game in ways that we don't expect. It will change the way the people who choose to keep on playing will proceed from there on. It will make for a poorer game, it will make it easier for a lot of people to just walk away from it because the devs are creating a way for us to detach emotionally from our characters.

Sheezabeast

In all objectivity, will the amount of people buying the new Breton chapter plus the people buying the shiny new statue, outweigh the revenue loss of people canceling their subs?

silvereyes

SnowP wrote: »

What I do not get is that no product owner a.k.a. manager says stop.

I'm wondering that as well. There's a time to stay on target, and there's a time to pull up. We are past the time to pull up.

TPishek

Sheezabeast wrote: »

In all objectivity, will the amount of people buying the new Breton chapter plus the people buying the shiny new statue, outweigh the revenue loss of people canceling their subs?

People who care about achievements at all are an extremely tiny minority.

KMarble

Sheezabeast wrote: »

In all objectivity, will the amount of people buying the new Breton chapter plus the people buying the shiny new statue, outweigh the revenue loss of people canceling their subs?

Chapters, DLCs and shinies in the crown store are one and done purchases, but bills happen every month (salaries, utilities, rent, advertisement...). Subs are what keeps the studio up and running in between releases.

I lost count how many people - in this thread alone - have mentioned they have multiple accounts and pay sub on them. If memory serves, those people are also saying they'll stop playing on most/all accounts, will stop subbing/buy from the crown store, and won't buy the new chapter.

Anecdotal as this might be, I've been seeing way less people riding around on the elk mount that comes with the pre-purchase package.

TL;DR: no, it won't.

wenchmore420b14_ESO

TPishek wrote: »

Sheezabeast wrote: »

In all objectivity, will the amount of people buying the new Breton chapter plus the people buying the shiny new statue, outweigh the revenue loss of people canceling their subs?

People who care about achievements at all are an extremely tiny minority.

With 1700+ responses and 58 pages in 3 weeks, I beg to differ.

_Zathras_

Sheezabeast wrote: »

In all objectivity, will the amount of people buying the new Breton chapter plus the people buying the shiny new statue, outweigh the revenue loss of people canceling their subs?

I think the real cost is going to be bad press.

Sure, there are several people on the PTS forum who are aware of what is going on. There are even some in the General forum who read something about something, and kinda know.

..and then there are the people who don't bother with the forums who will get a very rude surprise in a couple of weeks.

This isn't going to be a little teacup, humming and spinning with a little cloud above it.

So, my forecast is that the forums are going to be flooded with people wondering why their characters are bugged. Then, when they find out it was all planned in advance, that the community fought to have it stopped, and they went forward anyway..well, that will be a good day to open my wings and alight on a nearby wall to watch the pageantry.

TPishek

wenchmore420b14_ESO wrote: »

TPishek wrote: »

Sheezabeast wrote: »

In all objectivity, will the amount of people buying the new Breton chapter plus the people buying the shiny new statue, outweigh the revenue loss of people canceling their subs?

People who care about achievements at all are an extremely tiny minority.

With 1700+ responses and 58 pages in 3 weeks, I beg to differ.

I don't think you realize just how few people actually participate on a forum compared to the number of people who play the game and just do quests.

Mephit

_Zathras_ wrote: »

Sheezabeast wrote: »

In all objectivity, will the amount of people buying the new Breton chapter plus the people buying the shiny new statue, outweigh the revenue loss of people canceling their subs?

I think the real cost is going to be bad press.

Sure, there are several people on the PTS forum who are aware of what is going on. There are even some in the General forum who read something about something, and kinda know.

..and then there are the people who don't bother with the forums who will get a very rude surprise in a couple of weeks.

This isn't going to be a little teacup, humming and spinning with a little cloud above it.

So, my forecast is that the forums are going to be flooded with people wondering why their characters are bugged. Then, when they find out it was all planned in advance, that the community fought to have it stopped, and they went forward anyway..well, that will be a good day to open my wings and alight on a nearby wall to watch the pageantry.

100%

This is the first time I have followed the PTS forums. I happened on the launch twitch and heard mention of the AWA, so got involved.

Normally I would have remained completely unaware like the vast majority of players.

At launch, most will be surprised… of those, some won’t care, some will be happy and the rest will be heartbroken. I don’t know the split, I just know the emotional impact is far greater for the latter.

I’ll be back for launch cos it’s gonna be a ride!!

wenchmore420b14_ESO

TPishek wrote: »

wenchmore420b14_ESO wrote: »

TPishek wrote: »

Sheezabeast wrote: »

In all objectivity, will the amount of people buying the new Breton chapter plus the people buying the shiny new statue, outweigh the revenue loss of people canceling their subs?

People who care about achievements at all are an extremely tiny minority.

With 1700+ responses and 58 pages in 3 weeks, I beg to differ.

I don't think you realize just how few people actually participate on a forum compared to the number of people who play the game and just do quests.

Having been a participant of forums since closed beta in 2013, I have found that the consensus on forums is a good demographics of the community as a whole and reflects most wants, doesn't want, likes, dislikes, etc.
Only one other thread I can remember has caused this kind of feedback, and ZoS's silence on the matter only deepens it.

Wait till it goes live and watch zone chat of the people who don't follow forums and log in to all their alts history gone.

tomofhyrule

Dark_Lord_Kuro wrote: »

SnowP wrote: »

Dark_Lord_Kuro wrote: »

Could be a result of unlocking then relocking the acheivement, if so it wont happen on live

Sorry to smash your hopes but if the code of v7.3.3 would hit the live server - that is exactly what will happen.
I testest in week one of PTS and today. On week one I had the NA charackter copy and today is the first time I used the EU character copy. So there was no unlocking and relocking at all.

Wasnt the eu character copy last week?
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/598203/pts-patch-notes-v7-3-2#latest

At the very least it should be easy to test it out for zos with another na copy before the end of pts

...if ZOS copies the NA servers again, which they haven't done in the past two years.

It's been 2 weeks NA, the rest EU since Elsweyr. There won't be another copy unless they break with normal cadence and specifically try to recopy since they know of a few bugs, and tbh I'm not hopeful for that (even though I'd love NA to get more than just the first two unpolished weeks on PTS every patch)

Either way though, the way this was 'fixed' seems like a preview of how it will go if a problem is found on live. Yes, the issues with the museums being reset and locking PTS characters from those achievements permanently will not occur when the patch rolls out live. That problem will only affect characters that get fixed after the patch rollout.

However, we know there are other unaddressed issues. So if it rolls out on live in its current state, they'll have to do that fix again... and at that point, they can't use the excuse "oh, we'll just recopy the servers" after the servers are already live. That means a server rollback, and that will mean people lose progress.

We know you're excited to see this, and we can see that minor storytelling bugs like the above are a non-issue to you. But this is still a TES game and many TES fans are here for the storytelling and exploration, so this is a major part of the game that is being unfxiably bugged if this rolls out as-is. I haven't seen anyone in the last 20 pages or so using "I think my achievements should be character-based only because I had to suffer so you should too!" as an argument, and even many people who are excited about AwA are in favor of a dual system (like in other MMOs, including WoW) because of how destructive and buggy this version is on PTS.

Again (and I notice you still haven't responded to the many people who have asked you this), how would you fix this? Would you be comfortable rolling this out on live knowing that there's a high chance another bug like this will come up, and then will need a fix? How would you fix this on live if you don't have the luxury of a copy to do without ruining hours (days!) of peoples' progress? Do you think the playerbase would survive if the official answer was "Well, nobody cares about story here, so we're essentially going to just remove Melina Cassel and her achievement from the game since it's bugged now."?

TPishek

wenchmore420b14_ESO wrote: »

TPishek wrote: »

wenchmore420b14_ESO wrote: »

TPishek wrote: »

Sheezabeast wrote: »

In all objectivity, will the amount of people buying the new Breton chapter plus the people buying the shiny new statue, outweigh the revenue loss of people canceling their subs?

People who care about achievements at all are an extremely tiny minority.

With 1700+ responses and 58 pages in 3 weeks, I beg to differ.

I don't think you realize just how few people actually participate on a forum compared to the number of people who play the game and just do quests.

Having been a participant of forums since closed beta in 2013, I have found that the consensus on forums is a good demographics of the community as a whole and reflects most wants, doesn't want, likes, dislikes, etc.
Only one other thread I can remember has caused this kind of feedback, and ZoS's silence on the matter only deepens it.

Wait till it goes live and watch zone chat of the people who don't follow forums and log in to all their alts history gone.

And I would guess 95% of people won't even notice that their achievements are merged because it doesn't affect questing.

Ugh_Tech

TPishek wrote: »

Sheezabeast wrote: »

In all objectivity, will the amount of people buying the new Breton chapter plus the people buying the shiny new statue, outweigh the revenue loss of people canceling their subs?

People who care about achievements at all are an extremely tiny minority.

If you're right, then why should ZOS do anything about this whole AwA-thing? Why put efford in programming, testing and bug-fixing for a 'tiny minority' while the 'huge majority' doesn't care?

The_Boggart

This release is bringing unnecessary fol de rols such
As a card game and two on a horse( what does this achieve except more gpu usage).

They do not seem to acknowledge that
AWA is FUBAR.

I can live without the fancy bits.

ZOS back it out!!!

TPishek

Ugh_Tech wrote: »

TPishek wrote: »

Sheezabeast wrote: »

In all objectivity, will the amount of people buying the new Breton chapter plus the people buying the shiny new statue, outweigh the revenue loss of people canceling their subs?

People who care about achievements at all are an extremely tiny minority.

If you're right, then why should ZOS do anything about this whole AwA-thing? Why put efford in programming, testing and bug-fixing for a 'tiny minority' while the 'huge majority' doesn't care?

Performance is probably the main reason why. They have so much data they need to track per character that is mostly redundant, they could conceivably cut it down to somewhere between 1/2 to 1/18 by making things account based.

kringled_1

TPishek wrote: »

wenchmore420b14_ESO wrote: »

TPishek wrote: »

wenchmore420b14_ESO wrote: »

TPishek wrote: »

Sheezabeast wrote: »

In all objectivity, will the amount of people buying the new Breton chapter plus the people buying the shiny new statue, outweigh the revenue loss of people canceling their subs?

People who care about achievements at all are an extremely tiny minority.

With 1700+ responses and 58 pages in 3 weeks, I beg to differ.

I don't think you realize just how few people actually participate on a forum compared to the number of people who play the game and just do quests.

Having been a participant of forums since closed beta in 2013, I have found that the consensus on forums is a good demographics of the community as a whole and reflects most wants, doesn't want, likes, dislikes, etc.
Only one other thread I can remember has caused this kind of feedback, and ZoS's silence on the matter only deepens it.

Wait till it goes live and watch zone chat of the people who don't follow forums and log in to all their alts history gone.

And I would guess 95% of people won't even notice that their achievements are merged because it doesn't affect questing.

This implementation affects questing deeply if you're playing on a second character.

Vevvev

wenchmore420b14_ESO wrote: »

TPishek wrote: »

wenchmore420b14_ESO wrote: »

TPishek wrote: »

Sheezabeast wrote: »

In all objectivity, will the amount of people buying the new Breton chapter plus the people buying the shiny new statue, outweigh the revenue loss of people canceling their subs?

People who care about achievements at all are an extremely tiny minority.

With 1700+ responses and 58 pages in 3 weeks, I beg to differ.

I don't think you realize just how few people actually participate on a forum compared to the number of people who play the game and just do quests.

Having been a participant of forums since closed beta in 2013, I have found that the consensus on forums is a good demographics of the community as a whole and reflects most wants, doesn't want, likes, dislikes, etc.
Only one other thread I can remember has caused this kind of feedback, and ZoS's silence on the matter only deepens it.

Wait till it goes live and watch zone chat of the people who don't follow forums and log in to all their alts history gone.

Yeah, typically only 10% of the playerbase visits the forums with about 10% of that 10% actually giving any content to the forums.

The fact this thread has exploded into 58 pages as of this post I'm writing says a lot. I have never seen a thread this large and this active in a very, very long time.

TPishek

kringled_1 wrote: »

TPishek wrote: »

wenchmore420b14_ESO wrote: »

TPishek wrote: »

wenchmore420b14_ESO wrote: »

TPishek wrote: »

Sheezabeast wrote: »

In all objectivity, will the amount of people buying the new Breton chapter plus the people buying the shiny new statue, outweigh the revenue loss of people canceling their subs?

People who care about achievements at all are an extremely tiny minority.

With 1700+ responses and 58 pages in 3 weeks, I beg to differ.

I don't think you realize just how few people actually participate on a forum compared to the number of people who play the game and just do quests.

Having been a participant of forums since closed beta in 2013, I have found that the consensus on forums is a good demographics of the community as a whole and reflects most wants, doesn't want, likes, dislikes, etc.
Only one other thread I can remember has caused this kind of feedback, and ZoS's silence on the matter only deepens it.

Wait till it goes live and watch zone chat of the people who don't follow forums and log in to all their alts history gone.

And I would guess 95% of people won't even notice that their achievements are merged because it doesn't affect questing.

This implementation affects questing deeply if you're playing on a second character.

How? You still have the ability to do quests on multiple characters, your character still can do whatever lines it wants.

RoseTheSnowElf

Mephit wrote: »

_Zathras_ wrote: »

Sheezabeast wrote: »

In all objectivity, will the amount of people buying the new Breton chapter plus the people buying the shiny new statue, outweigh the revenue loss of people canceling their subs?

I think the real cost is going to be bad press.

Sure, there are several people on the PTS forum who are aware of what is going on. There are even some in the General forum who read something about something, and kinda know.

..and then there are the people who don't bother with the forums who will get a very rude surprise in a couple of weeks.

This isn't going to be a little teacup, humming and spinning with a little cloud above it.

So, my forecast is that the forums are going to be flooded with people wondering why their characters are bugged. Then, when they find out it was all planned in advance, that the community fought to have it stopped, and they went forward anyway..well, that will be a good day to open my wings and alight on a nearby wall to watch the pageantry.

100%

This is the first time I have followed the PTS forums. I happened on the launch twitch and heard mention of the AWA, so got involved.

Normally I would have remained completely unaware like the vast majority of players.

At launch, most will be surprised… of those, some won’t care, some will be happy and the rest will be heartbroken. I don’t know the split, I just know the emotional impact is far greater for the latter.

I’ll be back for launch cos it’s gonna be a ride!!

All of this^

I personally didn't have a forum account until this AWA discussion. However I've occasionally perused the forums over the last year and a half I've been on ESO just to see what's happening with the game. This topic made me actually want to say something.

When it was 1st announced in the global reveal of High Isle, I was initially indifferent. But as we get closer and closer to March's update I've actually been getting a little more and more freaked out. There doesn't seem to be any reverse on this if it gets pushed through.

I have seen this topic talked about 1 time in chat. However, they were discussing Alliance War Rank titles. And they thought it would be cool that those would be account-wide. (It's my understanding that those are still character specific. Right?)

So the silence in game seems strange and idk how to take that. Ppl either don't know, don't care, are misunderstanding what's really coming with AWA, and believe what they will be getting is exactly what they themselves are imagining?

But either way, I think the above statements are correct. There will be a rude awakening come March's update.

EDIT:

Jaraal wrote: »

RoseTheSnowElf wrote: »

I have seen this topic talked about 1 time in chat. However, they were discussing Alliance War Rank titles. And they thought it would be cool that those would be account-wide. (It's my understanding that those are still character specific. Right?)

Nope. Currently on test your level 2 crafting mule can wear the Emperor, Former Emperor, Grand Overlord titles. And Battleground titles like Bloodletter, Grand Champion, The Merciless, etc.

Oh, my mistake. I'm finding it difficult to remember what is and what isn't included in AWA.

kringled_1

TPishek wrote: »

kringled_1 wrote: »

TPishek wrote: »

wenchmore420b14_ESO wrote: »

TPishek wrote: »

wenchmore420b14_ESO wrote: »

TPishek wrote: »

Sheezabeast wrote: »

In all objectivity, will the amount of people buying the new Breton chapter plus the people buying the shiny new statue, outweigh the revenue loss of people canceling their subs?

People who care about achievements at all are an extremely tiny minority.

With 1700+ responses and 58 pages in 3 weeks, I beg to differ.

I don't think you realize just how few people actually participate on a forum compared to the number of people who play the game and just do quests.

Having been a participant of forums since closed beta in 2013, I have found that the consensus on forums is a good demographics of the community as a whole and reflects most wants, doesn't want, likes, dislikes, etc.
Only one other thread I can remember has caused this kind of feedback, and ZoS's silence on the matter only deepens it.

Wait till it goes live and watch zone chat of the people who don't follow forums and log in to all their alts history gone.

And I would guess 95% of people won't even notice that their achievements are merged because it doesn't affect questing.

This implementation affects questing deeply if you're playing on a second character.

How? You still have the ability to do quests on multiple characters, your character still can do whatever lines it wants.

NPCs talking to you as if you've already done their quest when you're just starting. Epilog quest lines shut out because the game thinks you're already done. The two queens in Rimmen.
They developed this game for years with achievements and major quest completion mapped 1:1. Some of the issues are resolvable in time as they change things to point at the hidden quest tracking log. Some things were never tracked as a quest, only as an achievement so they break in this implementation.

Mephit

TPishek wrote: »

wenchmore420b14_ESO wrote: »

TPishek wrote: »

wenchmore420b14_ESO wrote: »

TPishek wrote: »

Sheezabeast wrote: »

In all objectivity, will the amount of people buying the new Breton chapter plus the people buying the shiny new statue, outweigh the revenue loss of people canceling their subs?

People who care about achievements at all are an extremely tiny minority.

With 1700+ responses and 58 pages in 3 weeks, I beg to differ.

I don't think you realize just how few people actually participate on a forum compared to the number of people who play the game and just do quests.

Having been a participant of forums since closed beta in 2013, I have found that the consensus on forums is a good demographics of the community as a whole and reflects most wants, doesn't want, likes, dislikes, etc.
Only one other thread I can remember has caused this kind of feedback, and ZoS's silence on the matter only deepens it.

Wait till it goes live and watch zone chat of the people who don't follow forums and log in to all their alts history gone.

And I would guess 95% of people won't even notice that their achievements are merged because it doesn't affect questing.

Can only speak for myself.

I pay more attention to my character’s achievements / map than quests! I know I’ve missed a quest when I haven’t met the zone achievement. I do daily quests cos I haven’t completed the achievement yet… I visit dungeons cos I haven’t… etc etc

If I were to guess, then i would change your 95% to somewhere between 25 & 75, cos how can we even start to guess?

Ugh_Tech

TPishek wrote: »

kringled_1 wrote: »

TPishek wrote: »

wenchmore420b14_ESO wrote: »

TPishek wrote: »

wenchmore420b14_ESO wrote: »

TPishek wrote: »

Sheezabeast wrote: »

In all objectivity, will the amount of people buying the new Breton chapter plus the people buying the shiny new statue, outweigh the revenue loss of people canceling their subs?

People who care about achievements at all are an extremely tiny minority.

With 1700+ responses and 58 pages in 3 weeks, I beg to differ.

I don't think you realize just how few people actually participate on a forum compared to the number of people who play the game and just do quests.

Having been a participant of forums since closed beta in 2013, I have found that the consensus on forums is a good demographics of the community as a whole and reflects most wants, doesn't want, likes, dislikes, etc.
Only one other thread I can remember has caused this kind of feedback, and ZoS's silence on the matter only deepens it.

Wait till it goes live and watch zone chat of the people who don't follow forums and log in to all their alts history gone.

And I would guess 95% of people won't even notice that their achievements are merged because it doesn't affect questing.

This implementation affects questing deeply if you're playing on a second character.

How? You still have the ability to do quests on multiple characters, your character still can do whatever lines it wants.

You've seen all the reports about bugged quests tied to achievements and museum-collections not working?
Yes, you can do some quests on a second character, but sooner or later you're running into a bug.
Nevertheless, performance-issues will soon be 'solved' when the 'tiny minority' stops playing because their alts progress has been flushed to /dev/nul.
I see a potential here, that this 'UPdate' in its current state _might_ cause a big change within the community - and not a positive one.

Tandor

_Zathras_ wrote: »

Sheezabeast wrote: »

In all objectivity, will the amount of people buying the new Breton chapter plus the people buying the shiny new statue, outweigh the revenue loss of people canceling their subs?

I think the real cost is going to be bad press.

Sure, there are several people on the PTS forum who are aware of what is going on. There are even some in the General forum who read something about something, and kinda know.

..and then there are the people who don't bother with the forums who will get a very rude surprise in a couple of weeks.

This isn't going to be a little teacup, humming and spinning with a little cloud above it.

So, my forecast is that the forums are going to be flooded with people wondering why their characters are bugged. Then, when they find out it was all planned in advance, that the community fought to have it stopped, and they went forward anyway..well, that will be a good day to open my wings and alight on a nearby wall to watch the pageantry.

Don't forget the popcorn !

You're spot on, of course. I hope by then even sites like MOP will have picked up on this story.

TPishek

kringled_1 wrote: »

TPishek wrote: »

kringled_1 wrote: »

TPishek wrote: »

wenchmore420b14_ESO wrote: »

TPishek wrote: »

wenchmore420b14_ESO wrote: »

TPishek wrote: »

Sheezabeast wrote: »

In all objectivity, will the amount of people buying the new Breton chapter plus the people buying the shiny new statue, outweigh the revenue loss of people canceling their subs?

People who care about achievements at all are an extremely tiny minority.

With 1700+ responses and 58 pages in 3 weeks, I beg to differ.

I don't think you realize just how few people actually participate on a forum compared to the number of people who play the game and just do quests.

Having been a participant of forums since closed beta in 2013, I have found that the consensus on forums is a good demographics of the community as a whole and reflects most wants, doesn't want, likes, dislikes, etc.
Only one other thread I can remember has caused this kind of feedback, and ZoS's silence on the matter only deepens it.

Wait till it goes live and watch zone chat of the people who don't follow forums and log in to all their alts history gone.

And I would guess 95% of people won't even notice that their achievements are merged because it doesn't affect questing.

This implementation affects questing deeply if you're playing on a second character.

How? You still have the ability to do quests on multiple characters, your character still can do whatever lines it wants.

NPCs talking to you as if you've already done their quest when you're just starting. Epilog quest lines shut out because the game thinks you're already done. The two queens in Rimmen.
They developed this game for years with achievements and major quest completion mapped 1:1. Some of the issues are resolvable in time as they change things to point at the hidden quest tracking log. Some things were never tracked as a quest, only as an achievement so they break in this implementation.

I expect to see bugs on an active development test server, it means almost nothing.

tomofhyrule

TPishek wrote: »

kringled_1 wrote: »

TPishek wrote: »

kringled_1 wrote: »

TPishek wrote: »

wenchmore420b14_ESO wrote: »

TPishek wrote: »

wenchmore420b14_ESO wrote: »

TPishek wrote: »

Sheezabeast wrote: »

In all objectivity, will the amount of people buying the new Breton chapter plus the people buying the shiny new statue, outweigh the revenue loss of people canceling their subs?

People who care about achievements at all are an extremely tiny minority.

With 1700+ responses and 58 pages in 3 weeks, I beg to differ.

I don't think you realize just how few people actually participate on a forum compared to the number of people who play the game and just do quests.

Having been a participant of forums since closed beta in 2013, I have found that the consensus on forums is a good demographics of the community as a whole and reflects most wants, doesn't want, likes, dislikes, etc.
Only one other thread I can remember has caused this kind of feedback, and ZoS's silence on the matter only deepens it.

Wait till it goes live and watch zone chat of the people who don't follow forums and log in to all their alts history gone.

And I would guess 95% of people won't even notice that their achievements are merged because it doesn't affect questing.

This implementation affects questing deeply if you're playing on a second character.

How? You still have the ability to do quests on multiple characters, your character still can do whatever lines it wants.

NPCs talking to you as if you've already done their quest when you're just starting. Epilog quest lines shut out because the game thinks you're already done. The two queens in Rimmen.
They developed this game for years with achievements and major quest completion mapped 1:1. Some of the issues are resolvable in time as they change things to point at the hidden quest tracking log. Some things were never tracked as a quest, only as an achievement so they break in this implementation.

I expect to see bugs on an active development test server, it means almost nothing.

...isn't the point of the test server to catch and fix those bugs before they go live?!?

They've fixed one. Out of the many that have been reported. And even they admitted they were still looking for a more elegant solution.

So... shouldn't this be delayed until said elegant solution had been found, and tested to make sure there are no issues?!