How do I get past this business model?

Paulytnz

SilverBride wrote: »

Players have storage problems because they collect and keep more things than they need. ZoS could give us 10 times the current storage space and some players would have that filled up in no time.

Yes but it doesn't help that ZOS keeps adding new things that takes storage too. I mean it's not bad for those of us with a craft bag but think of all the new style mats from each new event, DLC or chapter. Then there's Motifs etc too.

Yes they are slowly giving us more Inv slots via the pets but I don't think that's enough to keep up tbh......

Ps, why is it our banks max out at only 480 slots and not 500 lol? Heck round that up to 500 it's doing my OCD in already. Guild banks have 500 slots so I don't see why banks can't go to that size too.....

barney2525

DarkWombat wrote: »

I have 1,500 plus hours into this game. I also sometimes play World of Warcraft, Guild Wars 2 and Lord of the Rings Online.

I have a couple friends and also my son who dabble with ESO from time to time and we all agree the whole payment model just rubs us the wrong way. I try to tell myself if I pay a monthly subscription like WoW I get all the content minus any expansions but something about ESO still rubs me the wrong way.

• I don't like all these mounts and cool items behind loot boxes.
• I don't like artificial "LIMITED TIME" pop ups when I log in to create fear of missing out.
• I don't like buying an expansion like the Skyrim one, and only getting to play half of the story and find out there is another half that is not included in the expansion.
• I don't like it how expansions and their land masses and content have gotten smaller and smaller and the content seems to be getting worse not better.
• I don't like it how damage done is based on total mana or stamina, a system so bad that no MMO in history has used it before and the only one who uses it is the one universe that actually had the most hybrids in its single player games, so this system actually hurts that!
• I don't like it that you can't purchase a craft bag, and it stirs resentment every-time I play. Something like a crafting bag should not be the number one reason to get a subscription and designing this as a negative to get you to subscribe feels bad.

Whats funny is I actually like the combat, I like the graphics and UI with addons. I love the music and love being in Tamriel.
Its just when I log in, I get mad. I have to physically try to play the game and not think about it.

How do I get past this or is there even a way?

I got some of my best super rare mounts from loot box RNG - otherwise I would not have them at all, since If all mounts were simply set at specific credit prices I would not be able to afford the ones I currently own.

I like the pop ups. They remind me of something I was planning to buy so I dont forget and lose out.

If you dont like buying the expansions, just wait. They will change into DLCs and your subscription will give you access. The only extra cost is the time spent waiting and not being able to go through it on day one.

You knew how the damage system worked reasonably soon after you started playing. It is what it is provided. And it seems a little weak to stick with it for 1500 hours if you are really THAT critical of it.

You Can purchase a craft bag. Its called a subscription. It is IMHO - the best of the multiple benefits that come with the subscription. Which makes it valuable to a Company to sell inside the subscription package rather than as a stand alone item in the crown store. After all - what price would you set for the craft bag as an item to be purchased forever? How many credits is it worth over years of play on Every character on the account? Or perhaps they should sell the bags on a per character system?

IMHO

barney2525

DarkWombat wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

You can't put your own personal view as hers, and then say she can't have it both ways. She clearly doesn't view convenience items as a problem being the main draw for subbing, and instead actually insists that subbing should have that type of perk. It is you that think it's wrong.

She said the craft bag was not enough by itself to make her subscribe stating the value one gets from the other benefits of a subscription. If the value of those items were enough she should not be upset if a crafting bag was sold separately. Obviously she said she would be mad at that, so the other perks aren't enough, making the crafting bag weigh too much as far as value goes. And a luxury item weighing that much (*as you yourself said you ONLY get the sub for the bag)over content is wrong...

Why do players think a subscription gives out One (1) craft bag? It gives out 1000 .... or more ... depending on how many characters you choose to create and delete during the time you have the subscription, since it is Account wide. If you had to buy the craft bag on it's own, from the crown store, dollars to donuts, it would be per Character - just like riding lessons.

Have fun with That. Every time you deleted a character you would be throwing away more credits.

Abnaxos

Snogards wrote: »

I sub totally for the craft bag. Storage should not be an issue but they just keep adding more and more stuff. I was happy to pay monthly then they went cross platform, free to play. Then more and more stuff and no where to put it. I have 5 alts that are just mules. I shouldn't have this problem. Why ??????????

That's the general issue with the free-to-play model (though ESO is actually buy-to-play, but since a one time payment clearly wouldn't cover the costs, let's ignore that detail).

I think, we can all agree that the costs of running an MMO and keeping it alive are immense and need to be covered somehow.

If the game is free-to-play, you have to get the players to buy stuff, otherwise you run out of money. How do you get players to buy stuff? Well, you create problems in the game and then sell the solutions in the store. For example, the problem is not enough inventory space for all the materials, the solution is ESO+ with the crafting bag. Still not enough inventory space, solutions in the store: mount training scrolls, inventory pets, banker assistant.

The free-to-play model shifts the developer's focus to a certain extent. If you have a subscription model, you need to make the best possible game, so people feel it's worth the subscription fee and are happy to pay it. If the game isn't good enough, people won't subscribe and you run out of money. With free-to-play, however, the focus is to make the worst possible game that's good enough for people play it, so you can sell improvements in the store. If the game is "too good", people don't buy stuff and you run out of money.

That's why the subscription model generally results in the better game. It forces the developers to make the best game they possibly can, period. I also imagine that it's more fulfilling for the developers: if they have a good idea, it won't be evaluated against the business model (does it make the game "too good"? how can we sell it?). If it's a cool idea and viable to implement, it will be done, because it makes the game better. Developers who love their game enjoy making it better and the better the game is, the more the developers love it – positive feedback loop.

SilverBride wrote: »

Players have storage problems because they collect and keep more things than they need. ZoS could give us 10 times the current storage space and some players would have that filled up in no time.

This is of course also true, inventory management is part of the game. However, in ESO, the issue is more pressing than it should be. This is clearly by design, it's clearly deliberately not enough. It's a classic, probably all free-to-play games do this. It's the obvious first problem people will run into, where you can sell a solution.

Right now, with crafting bag and backpack maxed out, I don't have inventory problems anymore, and I didn't even train the mount inventory yet. Without the crafting bag, however, it's a different story.

Caupo

DarkWombat wrote: »

• I don't like buying an expansion like the Skyrim one, and only getting to play half of the story and find out there is another half that is not included in the expansion.

This is the only legit reason to hate the business model, since every expansion costs the same as a new just released game on steam and all you get is half story, the other half is locked behind another purchasable DLC (or subscription)

SilverBride

Paulytnz wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Players have storage problems because they collect and keep more things than they need. ZoS could give us 10 times the current storage space and some players would have that filled up in no time.

Yes but it doesn't help that ZOS keeps adding new things that takes storage too. I mean it's not bad for those of us with a craft bag but think of all the new style mats from each new event, DLC or chapter. Then there's Motifs etc too.

We do not need to collect and store every new thing that comes along. We don't need to gather all the style mats just in case some day we may want to make a piece of armor in that style. We can farm or buy that mat if and when we actually do need it. And why do players amass huge amounts of motifs? Use the ones you need and sell the rest. The same with surveys. I do mine immediately after I finish doing writs for the day. The same with maps and other things that can take up a lot of space. Go dig them up or sell them.

I have ESO+ and am using less than half of my storage space. Now it is true that it would be more of a problem if I didn't have the craft bag, but if that was the case I would clear out all the low level mats and those that I rarely if ever use and it would be adequate.

wolfie1.0.

DarkWombat wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

I'm not gonna lie, I am mostly subbed for the craft bag. I get the dlc separately anyway.

All the more reason not to sell it separately. It is the main draw for a lot of players and if they let others buy it for a one time cost subscriptions would plummet.

Subscribing has to have perks with a positive impact to make it worth the cost to the player.

But that's wrong and borderline predatory business practice. A craft bag should not be the sole reason to sub, ever. That is a convenience item, that's total BS.

How much in USD would you be willing to pay for a craft bag

wolfie1.0.

SilverBride wrote: »

DarkWombat wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

I'm not gonna lie, I am mostly subbed for the craft bag. I get the dlc separately anyway.

All the more reason not to sell it separately. It is the main draw for a lot of players and if they let others buy it for a one time cost subscriptions would plummet.

Subscribing has to have perks with a positive impact to make it worth the cost to the player.

But that's wrong and borderline predatory business practice. A craft bag should not be the sole reason to sub, ever. That is a convenience item, that's total BS.

A convenience item isn't necessary to gameplay. It has no impact on how successful a player can be.

What would be predatory is if they only offered certain sets for example to subscribers, or other such items that do affect a player's success.

While true, let's be honest here. Of everything offered in the crown store and eso plus the craft bag is the most valuable item and while it's not directly impacting how good a player is or preforms it does in fact give players who have it an advantage over those that don't.

SilverBride

wolfie1.0. wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

A convenience item isn't necessary to gameplay. It has no impact on how successful a player can be.

What would be predatory is if they only offered certain sets for example to subscribers, or other such items that do affect a player's success.

While true, let's be honest here. Of everything offered in the crown store and eso plus the craft bag is the most valuable item and while it's not directly impacting how good a player is or preforms it does in fact give players who have it an advantage over those that don't.

It doesn't give an advantage, it gives a convenience. That is what a perk is.

wolfie1.0.

SilverBride wrote: »

wolfie1.0. wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

A convenience item isn't necessary to gameplay. It has no impact on how successful a player can be.

What would be predatory is if they only offered certain sets for example to subscribers, or other such items that do affect a player's success.

While true, let's be honest here. Of everything offered in the crown store and eso plus the craft bag is the most valuable item and while it's not directly impacting how good a player is or preforms it does in fact give players who have it an advantage over those that don't.

It doesn't give an advantage, it gives a convenience. That is what a perk is.

Oh its a convenience, but its also an advantage.
How is being able to store a nearly infinite amount of crafting materials isn't an advantage over other players? That ability alone provides an important economic and crafting advantage in the game. Can it be worked around? Yes it can, and with outfits and stickerbook it's actually gone down in relative value since then. So yes it's easier to get a long without it and it's moving to more of a convenience thing than advantage, but the advantage is still there.

I can with my crafting bag farm or buy millions worth of items without having to worry about it. There are mats that I have that I have in there that are in the several hundred thousand range and I craft a lot of stuff daily I use the thing. If there is a run on say heartwood? I can ride it out or sell my 30k of the stuff. Meta changed to light/medium armor over heavy in pvp? 50 million in the bank from selling stacks of wax. Corn flower prices go up? Sell several thousand of the stuff to profit.

How is that not an advantage over a player that has finite storage? The most storage space a single non eso+ player can have is 4380 slots, assuming you don't have guild storage. If you ad in 5 guild banks that only you have access to that's another 2500 slots. Is that a lot? Yes, but not nearly on the same scale as a craft bag, and thus the craft bag is an advantage.

Elsonso

Paulytnz wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Players have storage problems because they collect and keep more things than they need. ZoS could give us 10 times the current storage space and some players would have that filled up in no time.

Yes but it doesn't help that ZOS keeps adding new things that takes storage too. I mean it's not bad for those of us with a craft bag but think of all the new style mats from each new event, DLC or chapter. Then there's Motifs etc too.

Yes they are slowly giving us more Inv slots via the pets but I don't think that's enough to keep up tbh......

They also just gave us an account-wide Set Sticker Book, allowing players to simply sell, delete, or deconstruct piles of set gear stored for possible future use.

Yeah, the armory works against that by requiring characters to lug around armory gear. However, if ZOS will implement my idea of merging all of the character inventories into a single account-wide inventory, then different characters could share the same gear in the Armory.

Caupo wrote: »

DarkWombat wrote: »

• I don't like buying an expansion like the Skyrim one, and only getting to play half of the story and find out there is another half that is not included in the expansion.

This is the only legit reason to hate the business model, since every expansion costs the same as a new just released game on steam and all you get is half story, the other half is locked behind another purchasable DLC (or subscription)

Wait for a free ESO Plus trial and finish the story during the free week. I know this does not address the complaint, but it certainly works around it.

SilverBride

wolfie1.0. wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

It doesn't give an advantage, it gives a convenience. That is what a perk is.

Oh its a convenience, but its also an advantage.

How is being able to store a nearly infinite amount of crafting materials isn't an advantage over other players? That ability alone provides an important economic and crafting advantage in the game. Can it be worked around? Yes it can, and with outfits and stickerbook it's actually gone down in relative value since then. So yes it's easier to get a long without it and it's moving to more of a convenience thing than advantage, but the advantage is still there.

I can with my crafting bag farm or buy millions worth of items without having to worry about it. There are mats that I have that I have in there that are in the several hundred thousand range and I craft a lot of stuff daily I use the thing. If there is a run on say heartwood? I can ride it out or sell my 30k of the stuff. Meta changed to light/medium armor over heavy in pvp? 50 million in the bank from selling stacks of wax. Corn flower prices go up? Sell several thousand of the stuff to profit.

How is that not an advantage over a player that has finite storage? The most storage space a single non eso+ player can have is 4380 slots, assuming you don't have guild storage. If you ad in 5 guild banks that only you have access to that's another 2500 slots. Is that a lot? Yes, but not nearly on the same scale as a craft bag, and thus the craft bag is an advantage.

The craft bag only holds crafting mats. Players who are always struggling with inventory management will continue to do so even if they did have the craft bag.

It is interesting to me that players single out the craft bag but no one ever mentions the double bank and bag storage, or double housing furnishing slots, or the free DLC access, or dying costumes, or free crowns that also come with ESO+. Is the craft bag the only thing they see as an "advantage"?

And I hold firm that all these perks are just conveniences. An advantage would be if ESO+ had exclusive sets or other such items only available to them. They don't.

furiouslog

One thing that would mitigate the inventory issue slightly is that if the bank storage scaled upwards with the number of alt toons you had on the account, which seems pretty fair and would not undermine the intent of limiting inventory in the first place. For example, if each alt added another 10-20 spots to the bank, that would be about right. I've found that my healers in particular are really difficult to manage with all of the sets needed for them to run content situationally, and if the bank is near full when running a trial or something, it turns into a big deal when they get drops. I basically just sell everything I pick up but it can slow the group down if we're trying to run quickly through stuff.

The decon assistant will definitely help with inventory management during dungeons, but either way it always seemed weird to me that a person just running one toon has the same bank space as someone running 18.

Stx

Excellent post, and yes it is really hard for me to accept that on top of paying a monthly sub, I have to shell out more cash for any mounts / costumes I want. The monthly amount of crowns they give you with eso plus isn't nearly enough to cover what you might want from the store.

It's sad coming from a game like wow, where 99% of the cosmetics and mounts are obtainable in game. ESO it seems like 99% of cosmetics are on the cash shop. At least mounts and costumes and the coolest weapon skins.

Elsonso

Stx wrote: »

Excellent post, and yes it is really hard for me to accept that on top of paying a monthly sub, I have to shell out more cash for any mounts / costumes I want. The monthly amount of crowns they give you with eso plus isn't nearly enough to cover what you might want from the store.

It's sad coming from a game like wow, where 99% of the cosmetics and mounts are obtainable in game. ESO it seems like 99% of cosmetics are on the cash shop. At least mounts and costumes and the coolest weapon skins.

WOW has a required subscription. Even if you get a Token with gold, someone is paying for that.

Here, we get an optional subscription that players can turn on and off like an internet-controlled light. And loot boxes. Also, loot boxes. Did I mention loot boxes?

This makes a huge difference in how the game is monetized.

wolfie1.0.

SilverBride wrote: »

wolfie1.0. wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

It doesn't give an advantage, it gives a convenience. That is what a perk is.

Oh its a convenience, but its also an advantage.

How is being able to store a nearly infinite amount of crafting materials isn't an advantage over other players? That ability alone provides an important economic and crafting advantage in the game. Can it be worked around? Yes it can, and with outfits and stickerbook it's actually gone down in relative value since then. So yes it's easier to get a long without it and it's moving to more of a convenience thing than advantage, but the advantage is still there.

I can with my crafting bag farm or buy millions worth of items without having to worry about it. There are mats that I have that I have in there that are in the several hundred thousand range and I craft a lot of stuff daily I use the thing. If there is a run on say heartwood? I can ride it out or sell my 30k of the stuff. Meta changed to light/medium armor over heavy in pvp? 50 million in the bank from selling stacks of wax. Corn flower prices go up? Sell several thousand of the stuff to profit.

How is that not an advantage over a player that has finite storage? The most storage space a single non eso+ player can have is 4380 slots, assuming you don't have guild storage. If you ad in 5 guild banks that only you have access to that's another 2500 slots. Is that a lot? Yes, but not nearly on the same scale as a craft bag, and thus the craft bag is an advantage.

The craft bag only holds crafting mats. Players who are always struggling with inventory management will continue to do so even if they did have the craft bag.

It is interesting to me that players single out the craft bag but no one ever mentions the double bank and bag storage, or double housing furnishing slots, or the free DLC access, or dying costumes, or free crowns that also come with ESO+. Is the craft bag the only thing they see as an "advantage"?

And I hold firm that all these perks are just conveniences. An advantage would be if ESO+ had exclusive sets or other such items only available to them. They don't.

thats because when compared to the craft bag those options don't really add all that much or don't come as an issue yet.

Though, to your point if ZOS keeps adding crafted sets to ESO we will reach a point that to have ALL of the items that players want in their homes for conviences (All Crafting stations, Assistants, Mundus Stones, Etc) you will be required to have ESO plus to place them. Though i think one could make an argument that even WITH plus there isn't room (another topic) Transmute stones and banking space are nice, but honestly? they could make those functions mainstream and most of ESO + subscribers would still sub, because the majority of people who do sub do it for either the craft bag or the DLC access everything else is extra. i certainly don't do it for the 10% boost to gold or exp boost.

these perks are conveniences, i totally agree. They make life and gameplay easier... in other words they give you an advantage it saves you from having to decide how many stacks of cornflower or improvement items you need to store. a person without plus doesn't have the convenience has a harder time.

Snogards

I have decon or destroyed so much stuff that eventually I wanted. Something I used to have but deconned for space and had to regrind to replace a set or weapon. So yes I do kind of hord but there are sets I had destroyed and can no longer replace because they have been removed from game. Ultima On Line had unlimited bank storage, I just don't understand why storage and memory is such a problem and a lot of players seem to have it.

SilverBride

wolfie1.0. wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

The craft bag only holds crafting mats. Players who are always struggling with inventory management will continue to do so even if they did have the craft bag.

It is interesting to me that players single out the craft bag but no one ever mentions the double bank and bag storage, or double housing furnishing slots, or the free DLC access, or dying costumes, or free crowns that also come with ESO+. Is the craft bag the only thing they see as an "advantage"?

And I hold firm that all these perks are just conveniences. An advantage would be if ESO+ had exclusive sets or other such items only available to them. They don't.

thats because when compared to the craft bag those options don't really add all that much or don't come as an issue yet.

If inventory management is what players are looking for then double storage is significant, not just the craft bag.

wolfie1.0. wrote: »

Though, to your point if ZOS keeps adding crafted sets to ESO we will reach a point that to have ALL of the items that players want in their homes for conviences (All Crafting stations, Assistants, Mundus Stones, Etc) you will be required to have ESO plus to place them.

Players don't have to have to have all those items in their houses. I am ESO+ and I only have 4 crafting stations in one home and those are mostly for decoration. Players can also dedicate one or more homes for crafting purposes.

wolfie1.0. wrote: »

these perks are conveniences, i totally agree. They make life and gameplay easier... in other words they give you an advantage it saves you from having to decide how many stacks of cornflower or improvement items you need to store. a person without plus doesn't have the convenience has a harder time.

A player without ESO+ doesn’t have the same conveniences, but they do have the same opportunity to sub and get these perks as everyone else. It's their choice if they think it's worth it or not. But it would be a very poor business decision for ZOS to give the perk many claim is the only reason they sub for a one time cost and lose all that revenue.

Eormenric

@DarkWombat

Hey OP. I know you haven't been active on the forums for over 2 weeks now. Has this business model gotten to you in every activity that you try to do for fun now? I think it's starting to get to more each month. As someone with an unknown amount of hours accumulated since the beta, it's gotten to me too.

As I scroll through comments, I'm saddened to see so many falling into the passive submission role. They advise to accept it, ask you to believe that others like it so drink the juice too, try not to let it get to you, look at the systems they've added "in the interest of players" (endeavors, telling us the odds, rating the game Mature because you're an adult and should know better, hmph!), "there's way worse games out there, bro!", "learn some self-control [read: what is psychology? I'm fully in control of my brain, life, and everything that exists around me at all times! Right? RIGHT?!] or they just don't understand your point of view because they couldn't be bothered to try or even have the ability to do so.

I know your title is in the form of a question, and these people are doing their best to answer it in the only way they've known how, but I wonder if any answer would quite satisfy you because I see your inherent philosophy on appropriate game design includes considering the life of the player. Games, especially ones with Free-to-Play components, do not always do that. As long as ESO has the capability to be played almost entirely without a subscription, the F2P and P2P model of ESO will never be a healthy balance. Until ESO+ is the only key that can unlock the majority of the game, these F2P business models will even plague you as a paid subscriber. I feel the best answer to your question of moving past this business model is remembering that you can walk away from 1500 hours and be just fine.

These cool mounts exist in a sea of bland ones to attract would-be spenders, like donuts in a bakery. We've all read stories of people dropping $150 on 21000 crowns, loading up on crates, and still walking away with 1 Apex mount. No radiants. Not even 2 Apex. Just one. The psychological implications to that player will be ignored as it serves the business model. It is simply about the cash flow. One needs to be satisfied with bread if they don't want to crash from a sugar rush.

Limited Time items are yet another FOMO directive--and an extremely harsh one. Sometimes, items won't return for years, if at all. There is a steep transition period to so many things, it bogs down the rotation: mounts, holiday mounts, pets, holiday pets, costumes, holiday costumes, music makers, holiday music makers, masks and hats, holiday masks and hats, arms packs, houses, holiday houses, and the occasional motif. One must be weary of these sets of items somehow adorning to their "personality". As such a shifting thing will be nipped at every month by a new set of unique items--because we'll rarely get something really cool in-game.

Story stagnation for profit is the biggest disservice to calling this an "Elder Scrolls" game. I don't remember the part in Skyrim where it stopped halfway through and said, "Finish the story in 6 months with a DLC!" How it manages to get away with that here is due to players not considering their financial actions.

It's very apparent the scope of paid content shrinking but costing the same. No one can dispute that. It's simple exploitation at this point. Players have gotten used to the exact same release schedule for 3+ years. ZOS won't break this tradition and it won't lower prices for less content. It will only attempt to distract you with the newest permanent system to ESO that fulfills some necessity you've been asking for a solution (whether it was more set options with antiquities, improved solo play with companions, or transmute crystals with Tales of Tribute). That necessity will excuse everything else. It really is genius to get you to pay the same price because your life is worse without this one thing.

I'm actually glad the game is shifting to total hybridization. It will breathe new life into combat design. The frustrations of getting to try out these builds and not knowing which to choose in a then over-engorged option scenario will remain, though.

And finally, the infamous craft bag has been the sole reason for ESO+ for awhile now. Many guides have come out on how to avoid it. Even I wondered how I could turn 13 months of ESO+ into 4 additional years of free content. I know it wouldn't be hard to do if I ignored crown crates and every other interesting item that cost crowns. But do I want to play ESO for 5 more years if it continues with these practices? I'd say no for myself and I'm sure for you too.

So I say again as an answer to you getting past this business model, getting past these systems, and getting past your commitment to a game you don't 100% hate: don't fall into the "Sunk cost" fallacy: Sunk cost fallacy in investing can be defined as the tendency of people to stick to their investments just because they spent a lot of time, effort, and money on them. We keep adding more to losing investments just because we already invested a lot. It's brilliant how ESO gets us to participate in so many forms of collection to further build up this sunk cost if we were to quit. Take all of your experiences with ESO and reinvest them into something that wants to make you happy without taking advantage of you. If you can't, this business model will always nag at you. Who wants that? Best of luck! Have fun in your search!

P.S. Maybe check back once every few months to see which direction ESO is heading. A game always has a chance to bring back good favor.

Gelmir

DarkWombat wrote: »

I don't like buying an expansion like the Skyrim one, and only getting to play half of the story and find out there is another half that is not included in the expansion.

This one is the most hilarious

Gelmir

spartaxoxo wrote: »

I'm not gonna lie, I am mostly subbed for the craft bag. I get the dlc separately anyway. I'd probably sub sometimes without anyway as I enjoy the crowns and I enjoy the free furniture, but it's mostly the bag

Same here. Can purchase everything else with ingame gold. The day crafting bag is given free, considering the quality of the content as of late, I will drop my sub.

Gelmir

Eormenric wrote: »

@DarkWombat

Hey OP. I know you haven't been active on the forums for over 2 weeks now. Has this business model gotten to you in every activity that you try to do for fun now? I think it's starting to get to more each month. As someone with an unknown amount of hours accumulated since the beta, it's gotten to me too.

As I scroll through comments, I'm saddened to see so many falling into the passive submission role. They advise to accept it, ask you to believe that others like it so drink the juice too, try not to let it get to you, look at the systems they've added "in the interest of players" (endeavors, telling us the odds, rating the game Mature because you're an adult and should know better, hmph!), "there's way worse games out there, bro!", "learn some self-control [read: what is psychology? I'm fully in control of my brain, life, and everything that exists around me at all times! Right? RIGHT?!] or they just don't understand your point of view because they couldn't be bothered to try or even have the ability to do so.

I know your title is in the form of a question, and these people are doing their best to answer it in the only way they've known how, but I wonder if any answer would quite satisfy you because I see your inherent philosophy on appropriate game design includes considering the life of the player. Games, especially ones with Free-to-Play components, do not always do that. As long as ESO has the capability to be played almost entirely without a subscription, the F2P and P2P model of ESO will never be a healthy balance. Until ESO+ is the only key that can unlock the majority of the game, these F2P business models will even plague you as a paid subscriber. I feel the best answer to your question of moving past this business model is remembering that you can walk away from 1500 hours and be just fine.

These cool mounts exist in a sea of bland ones to attract would-be spenders, like donuts in a bakery. We've all read stories of people dropping $150 on 21000 crowns, loading up on crates, and still walking away with 1 Apex mount. No radiants. Not even 2 Apex. Just one. The psychological implications to that player will be ignored as it serves the business model. It is simply about the cash flow. One needs to be satisfied with bread if they don't want to crash from a sugar rush.

Limited Time items are yet another FOMO directive--and an extremely harsh one. Sometimes, items won't return for years, if at all. There is a steep transition period to so many things, it bogs down the rotation: mounts, holiday mounts, pets, holiday pets, costumes, holiday costumes, music makers, holiday music makers, masks and hats, holiday masks and hats, arms packs, houses, holiday houses, and the occasional motif. One must be weary of these sets of items somehow adorning to their "personality". As such a shifting thing will be nipped at every month by a new set of unique items--because we'll rarely get something really cool in-game.

Story stagnation for profit is the biggest disservice to calling this an "Elder Scrolls" game. I don't remember the part in Skyrim where it stopped halfway through and said, "Finish the story in 6 months with a DLC!" How it manages to get away with that here is due to players not considering their financial actions.

It's very apparent the scope of paid content shrinking but costing the same. No one can dispute that. It's simple exploitation at this point. Players have gotten used to the exact same release schedule for 3+ years. ZOS won't break this tradition and it won't lower prices for less content. It will only attempt to distract you with the newest permanent system to ESO that fulfills some necessity you've been asking for a solution (whether it was more set options with antiquities, improved solo play with companions, or transmute crystals with Tales of Tribute). That necessity will excuse everything else. It really is genius to get you to pay the same price because your life is worse without this one thing.

I'm actually glad the game is shifting to total hybridization. It will breathe new life into combat design. The frustrations of getting to try out these builds and not knowing which to choose in a then over-engorged option scenario will remain, though.

And finally, the infamous craft bag has been the sole reason for ESO+ for awhile now. Many guides have come out on how to avoid it. Even I wondered how I could turn 13 months of ESO+ into 4 additional years of free content. I know it wouldn't be hard to do if I ignored crown crates and every other interesting item that cost crowns. But do I want to play ESO for 5 more years if it continues with these practices? I'd say no for myself and I'm sure for you too.

So I say again as an answer to you getting past this business model, getting past these systems, and getting past your commitment to a game you don't 100% hate: don't fall into the "Sunk cost" fallacy: Sunk cost fallacy in investing can be defined as the tendency of people to stick to their investments just because they spent a lot of time, effort, and money on them. We keep adding more to losing investments just because we already invested a lot. It's brilliant how ESO gets us to participate in so many forms of collection to further build up this sunk cost if we were to quit. Take all of your experiences with ESO and reinvest them into something that wants to make you happy without taking advantage of you. If you can't, this business model will always nag at you. Who wants that? Best of luck! Have fun in your search!

P.S. Maybe check back once every few months to see which direction ESO is heading. A game always has a chance to bring back good favor.

Gorgeous! Thank you.

FlopsyPrince

SilverBride wrote: »

DarkWombat wrote: »

I don't like it that you can't purchase a craft bag, and it stirs resentment every-time I play. Something like a crafting bag should not be the number one reason to get a subscription and designing this as a negative to get you to subscribe feels bad.

As a subscriber I would be resentful if they did sell the crafting bag to non subscribers.

But as nice as this bag is, it's not the only reason to subscribe. Double bank storage, double bag space and double housing furniture slots, plus free access to all DLCs and free crowns are also very nice perks.

The Crowns aren't free, they are part of what you are buying. I haven't thought about the cost compared to just buying the Crowns directly though. They are nice, but it is the craft bag and double space that gets me to subscribe.

Note to the OP, last I checked you couldn't even play WoW without a sub. It may be possible to use in-game gold to buy that, but it takes a lot of work to earn that gold.

FlopsyPrince

SilverBride wrote: »

Players have storage problems because they collect and keep more things than they need. ZoS could give us 10 times the current storage space and some players would have that filled up in no time.

That is not true at all. I only store a few gear pieces. The space is mostly sucked up by Surveys it seems. I know I have more, but I can only get down by about 100-150 if I am very aggressive (ESO+). I do use it for research items for my alts and to pass back things to decon while leveling crafting on alts. Doubling the storage would help my use incredibly. I doubt I am the only one that is true with.

I also have too many transmute crystals, so holding gear is no longer as important.

That said, I can only make 1 set or so without running out of crystals for that, so storing those is too low.

SilverBride

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Players have storage problems because they collect and keep more things than they need. ZoS could give us 10 times the current storage space and some players would have that filled up in no time.

That is not true at all. I only store a few gear pieces. The space is mostly sucked up by Surveys it seems. I know I have more, but I can only get down by about 100-150 if I am very aggressive (ESO+). I do use it for research items for my alts and to pass back things to decon while leveling crafting on alts. Doubling the storage would help my use incredibly. I doubt I am the only one that is true with.

I also have too many transmute crystals, so holding gear is no longer as important.

That said, I can only make 1 set or so without running out of crystals for that, so storing those is too low.

Don't let surveys accumulate. I do the surveys I get from writs every day as soon as I get them, and I've never put one in my bank.

And it is true that some players have the tendency collect way more than they need and giving them more storage space won't help them at all because it will soon be filled up, too.

DagenHawk

So what's the purpose of this thread to complain about buying crowns and telling other customers they are being Prayed Upon if they buy crowns? We have done this over and over since the store was introduced.

I'm honestly personally offended when I am told that I am weak and a victim of a predatory system because I enjoy optional items on a video game store.

Yet post like these stand...why? That is my simple question to the moderators.

This is not baiting I simply want to know, I enjoy the forums and yet I come here and told I am a bad person because I subscribe and buy crowns, mission accomplished I guess. I will no longer spend my money.

Thank you for your time.

FlopsyPrince

SilverBride wrote: »

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Players have storage problems because they collect and keep more things than they need. ZoS could give us 10 times the current storage space and some players would have that filled up in no time.

That is not true at all. I only store a few gear pieces. The space is mostly sucked up by Surveys it seems. I know I have more, but I can only get down by about 100-150 if I am very aggressive (ESO+). I do use it for research items for my alts and to pass back things to decon while leveling crafting on alts. Doubling the storage would help my use incredibly. I doubt I am the only one that is true with.

I also have too many transmute crystals, so holding gear is no longer as important.

That said, I can only make 1 set or so without running out of crystals for that, so storing those is too low.

Don't let surveys accumulate. I do the surveys I get from writs every day as soon as I get them, and I've never put one in my bank.

And it is true that some players have the tendency collect way more than they need and giving them more storage space won't help them at all because it will soon be filled up, too.

That is silly advice for me. Surveys are nice, but running all over for a single survey is a waste of time. I have so much else to do (finding skyshards, playing the storyline, etc.) that I refuse to let survey time consume me.

ZOS has enough in the game to fill up the space we have and while I suppose it could always be full, that doesn't mean it is ideal right now.

SilverBride

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Don't let surveys accumulate. I do the surveys I get from writs every day as soon as I get them, and I've never put one in my bank.

And it is true that some players have the tendency collect way more than they need and giving them more storage space won't help them at all because it will soon be filled up, too.

That is silly advice for me. Surveys are nice, but running all over for a single survey is a waste of time. I have so much else to do (finding skyshards, playing the storyline, etc.) that I refuse to let survey time consume me.

ZOS has enough in the game to fill up the space we have and while I suppose it could always be full, that doesn't mean it is ideal right now.

That is good advice that works very well for a lot of players. Some days I get several surveys but some days I don't get any at all, but it never takes me more than 10 minutes, if that, to complete them and not have to deal with storing them and spending hours later trying to catch up with hundreds of them. Plus refining the resources they provide often results in getting some gold crafting mats.

xXSilverDragonXx

Surveys are awesome. Don't want them, destroy them. My gods, some people will get pissy even when they give you nice stuff for virtually nothing.

spartaxoxo

Surveys are the most annoying waste of time in this game. The rewards are too nice to get rid of but the surveys themselves are the definitions of time wasting fetch junk designed to do nothing but keep you online doing micromanagement nonsense. UGH!