How do I get past this business model?

DarkWombat

I have 1,500 plus hours into this game. I also sometimes play World of Warcraft, Guild Wars 2 and Lord of the Rings Online.

I have a couple friends and also my son who dabble with ESO from time to time and we all agree the whole payment model just rubs us the wrong way. I try to tell myself if I pay a monthly subscription like WoW I get all the content minus any expansions but something about ESO still rubs me the wrong way.

• I don't like all these mounts and cool items behind loot boxes.
• I don't like artificial "LIMITED TIME" pop ups when I log in to create fear of missing out.
• I don't like buying an expansion like the Skyrim one, and only getting to play half of the story and find out there is another half that is not included in the expansion.
• I don't like it how expansions and their land masses and content have gotten smaller and smaller and the content seems to be getting worse not better.
• I don't like it how damage done is based on total mana or stamina, a system so bad that no MMO in history has used it before and the only one who uses it is the one universe that actually had the most hybrids in its single player games, so this system actually hurts that!
• I don't like it that you can't purchase a craft bag, and it stirs resentment every-time I play. Something like a crafting bag should not be the number one reason to get a subscription and designing this as a negative to get you to subscribe feels bad.

Whats funny is I actually like the combat, I like the graphics and UI with addons. I love the music and love being in Tamriel.
Its just when I log in, I get mad. I have to physically try to play the game and not think about it.

How do I get past this or is there even a way?

spartaxoxo

The same way you move past any other psychological block. You have to first accept the payment model is what it is, and that lots of people don't mind it. Only once you accept it that it exists (accept and condone aren't the same) can you move past it. It's not changeable because so many others accept or even like it.

Then you have to acknowledge your feelings, allow yourself to be mad for a bit.

Then make any changes to your gameplay that you do have power over. E.g. You don't necessarily have to subscribe, you can just buy the expansions and ditch the craft bag.

Then try to be focus on the positives of the game once you've done these things. Constantly trying to bury your resentment doesn't work in this or life in general. Acknowledge and then release the anger.

Necrotech_Master

i use an addon to block the announcement window that pops up on login (addon is "no thank you", also good addon to block a lot of other useless notifications)

SilverBride

DarkWombat wrote: »

I don't like it that you can't purchase a craft bag, and it stirs resentment every-time I play. Something like a crafting bag should not be the number one reason to get a subscription and designing this as a negative to get you to subscribe feels bad.

As a subscriber I would be resentful if they did sell the crafting bag to non subscribers.

But as nice as this bag is, it's not the only reason to subscribe. Double bank storage, double bag space and double housing furniture slots, plus free access to all DLCs and free crowns are also very nice perks.

DarkWombat

SilverBride wrote: »

As a subscriber I would be resentful if they did sell the crafting bag to non subscribers.

Exactly and you should not feel that way. But because you would feel that way proves it is wrong. It should be a core part of the game.

Fennwitty

Your points are nearly all related to the implementation of ESO+, and a less-than-charitable interpretation of motives on the part of the developers perhaps.

Now the company obviously wants to maximize profit and minimize costs. Their information (whatever it is) has told them the best model (for profit) at present is a hybrid free/subscription/lootbox payment model.

Other games have done loot boxes far worse -- including actual useful gear and other 'best' items in the cash shop. We're fortunate ESO has restrained itself from that. Though yes there is always the 'new best thing' in new content.

Now about the total magicka/stam -- that's not entirely accurate. Your max stats do contribute to damage, but it's far less impactful than it used to be.



Regarding chapters/expansions: I agree to an extent, but feel you might be overstating continuity between Greymoor and Markarth DLC. This is the ongoing conflict with "year long stories" and how it seems to not produce very good content.

I really don't believe it's an issue of 'bad motives' by the dev team -- they're doing what they have to do during work-from-home (which hit them very hard vs. some other companies). It's an issue of an unsustainable release schedule.

In fact, there's very little connection at all between Greymoor and Markarth. Except at the end there's a "final, final" questline that opens for characters who completed both. That really rubbed me the wrong way because they locked the green dye behind it, which typically was not done in the past (dyes were tied to 'complete the zone,' not 'complete both zones' and that was only a problem for me because I didn't realize it in advance and did the zones on two separate characters).

The story wasn't great or cohesive, but Greymoore had *a* self contained story that didn't at all require Markarth to finish. As did Markarth.

Also I'm 99% sure there are addons you can get which will block the 'advertisements'. Now to claim your daily login loot you'll probably still have to see it but addons can suppress the splash screen whenever you log in.


If I were in your position and only cared about enjoying the game, I would resolve to either take a break for X months, or else I would subscribe ongoing to ESO+ so it was available whenever I did decide to log in.

Is it possibly a bad use of money? Sure but at some level, outside of considering it a form of therapy or release video games are all bad uses of money.

spartaxoxo

SilverBride wrote: »

DarkWombat wrote: »

I don't like it that you can't purchase a craft bag, and it stirs resentment every-time I play. Something like a crafting bag should not be the number one reason to get a subscription and designing this as a negative to get you to subscribe feels bad.

As a subscriber I would be resentful if they did sell the crafting bag to non subscribers.

But as nice as this bag is, it's not the only reason to subscribe. Double bank storage, double bag space and double housing furniture slots, plus free access to all DLCs and free crowns are also very nice perks.

As a subscriber, it would personally depend on how they released it to me. The crafting bag is a somewhat predatory transaction after all, so reducing the predatory nature of it in some way would definitely be consumer friendly. But, at the same time I don't think it should be full released because it is a convenience item that some of us are paying real money to use.

I think a more limited version would be a good thing though, and would also help people who are only subbing for the bag. Like how many people out there don't want the dlc dungeons but feel forced to own them anyway for that bag? That seems a problem with the bag being "p2w-ish" (not literally p2w) moreso than a problem with the way the queues work imo. If going without one was more viable, then less people would feel the need to use it.

If there was a limited one that let you have up to say 100 of each ingredient, that would make the paid bag much superior without making it feel so mandatory to so many players.

SilverBride

DarkWombat wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

As a subscriber I would be resentful if they did sell the crafting bag to non subscribers.

Exactly and you should not feel that way. But because you would feel that way proves it is wrong. It should be a core part of the game.

How is it wrong that I don't want a perk I pay for monthly to be sold to others for a one time price? Subbing should give nice perks, and it does. If it didn't no one would sub, and someone has to pay the bills.

DarkWombat

SilverBride wrote: »

DarkWombat wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

As a subscriber I would be resentful if they did sell the crafting bag to non subscribers.

Exactly and you should not feel that way. But because you would feel that way proves it is wrong. It should be a core part of the game.

How is it wrong that I don't want a perk I pay for monthly to be sold to others for a one time price? Subbing should give nice perks, and it does. If it didn't no one would sub, and someone has to pay the bills.

But didn't you mention all the other great things being a subscriber has? Isn't that enough for you? It obviously isn't because if the crafting bag was allowed to be purchased it would make you mad. This is my point., Its value is way too high. Why not allow people to buy it for $19.99? They still have to spend 20 dollars and you still as a subscriber get to have all those nice other things you mentioned? If that bothers you then the WEIGHT of the craft bag for subscriptions is too great.. Many people sub just for the craft bag and I feel that is totally wrong.

SilverBride

DarkWombat wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

DarkWombat wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

As a subscriber I would be resentful if they did sell the crafting bag to non subscribers.

Exactly and you should not feel that way. But because you would feel that way proves it is wrong. It should be a core part of the game.

How is it wrong that I don't want a perk I pay for monthly to be sold to others for a one time price? Subbing should give nice perks, and it does. If it didn't no one would sub, and someone has to pay the bills.

But didn't you mention all the other great things being a subscriber has? Isn't that enough for you? It obviously isn't because if the crafting bag was allowed to be purchased it would make you mad. This is my point., Its value is way too high. Why not allow people to buy it for $19.99? They still have to spend 20 dollars and you still as a subscriber get to have all those nice other things you mentioned? If that bothers you then the WEIGHT of the craft bag for subscriptions is too great.. Many people sub just for the craft bag and I feel that is totally wrong.

They have to offer perks that have a positive impact or there is no point. The craft bag does that, but that alone wouldn't get me to subscribe. It's the total package that drew me in, craft bag included.

spartaxoxo

I'm not gonna lie, I am mostly subbed for the craft bag. I get the dlc separately anyway. I'd probably sub sometimes without anyway as I enjoy the crowns and I enjoy the free furniture, but it's mostly the bag

Celephantsylvius_Bornasfinmo

It's gonna become an issue, I told ya so.

Pricing and business model aren't in tune with the audience nor with what the game has offer, globally.

SilverBride

spartaxoxo wrote: »

I'm not gonna lie, I am mostly subbed for the craft bag. I get the dlc separately anyway.

All the more reason not to sell it separately. It is the main draw for a lot of players and if they let others buy it for a one time cost subscriptions would plummet.

Subscribing has to have perks with a positive impact to make it worth the cost to the player.

Oreyn_Bearclaw

If you pay a sub and buy the yearly chapter, you get everything that isnt aesthetic. It will either work for you or it wont. If you are patient, you can buy a chapter for like 10 bucks once it goes on sale.

Also, I love how you slip in your beef with how characters scale into a thread about pricing. What on earth does that have to do with this games business model?

DarkWombat

SilverBride wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

I'm not gonna lie, I am mostly subbed for the craft bag. I get the dlc separately anyway.

All the more reason not to sell it separately. It is the main draw for a lot of players and if they let others buy it for a one time cost subscriptions would plummet.

Subscribing has to have perks with a positive impact to make it worth the cost to the player.

But that's wrong and borderline predatory business practice. A craft bag should not be the sole reason to sub, ever. That is a convenience item, that's total BS.

DarkWombat

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Also, I love how you slip in your beef with how characters scale into a thread about pricing. What on earth does that have to do with this games business model?

I was on a rant and threw that in there, not sure why lol.

Casul

As much as I hate pvp performance issue I have to say the sub is honestly very solid. If you don't mind being late to the party then you can feasibly never spend more then the sub cost.

spartaxoxo

SilverBride wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

I'm not gonna lie, I am mostly subbed for the craft bag. I get the dlc separately anyway.

All the more reason not to sell it separately. It is the main draw for a lot of players and if they let others buy it for a one time cost subscriptions would plummet.

Subscribing has to have perks with a positive impact to make it worth the cost to the player.

I don't subscriber perks should be gameplay problems that are placed into the game purely to sell subs. Other games manage to have subscriber perks without inventory management being as ridiculously difficult as it is ESO to drive sales. And we already have lootboxes, houses, etc that draw in enough revenue alone to keep other games running, sure this one is not different.

DarkWombat

SilverBride wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

I'm not gonna lie, I am mostly subbed for the craft bag. I get the dlc separately anyway.

All the more reason not to sell it separately. It is the main draw for a lot of players and if they let others buy it for a one time cost subscriptions would plummet.

Subscribing has to have perks with a positive impact to make it worth the cost to the player.

Also, you cant have it both ways. One of the following is true:

1. The craft bag is only part of the subscription and the subscription is worth it enough for me to not be upset if it is sold separately, or
2. The craft bag is the main draw of the subscription but it is wrong to have a convenience item be such a draw over content.

spartaxoxo

DarkWombat wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

I'm not gonna lie, I am mostly subbed for the craft bag. I get the dlc separately anyway.

All the more reason not to sell it separately. It is the main draw for a lot of players and if they let others buy it for a one time cost subscriptions would plummet.

Subscribing has to have perks with a positive impact to make it worth the cost to the player.

Also, you cant have it both ways. One of the following is true:

1. The craft bag is only part of the subscription and the subscription is worth it enough for me to not be upset if it is sold separately, or
3. The craft bag is the main draw of the subscription but it is wrong to have a convenience item be such a draw over content.

You can't put your own personal view as hers, and then say she can't have it both ways. She clearly doesn't view convenience items as a problem being the main draw for subbing, and instead actually insists that subbing should have that type of perk. It is you that think it's wrong.

belial5221_ESO

DarkWombat wrote: »

I have 1,500 plus hours into this game. I also sometimes play World of Warcraft, Guild Wars 2 and Lord of the Rings Online.

I have a couple friends and also my son who dabble with ESO from time to time and we all agree the whole payment model just rubs us the wrong way. I try to tell myself if I pay a monthly subscription like WoW I get all the content minus any expansions but something about ESO still rubs me the wrong way.

• I don't like all these mounts and cool items behind loot boxes.
• I don't like artificial "LIMITED TIME" pop ups when I log in to create fear of missing out.
• I don't like buying an expansion like the Skyrim one, and only getting to play half of the story and find out there is another half that is not included in the expansion.
• I don't like it how expansions and their land masses and content have gotten smaller and smaller and the content seems to be getting worse not better.
• I don't like it how damage done is based on total mana or stamina, a system so bad that no MMO in history has used it before and the only one who uses it is the one universe that actually had the most hybrids in its single player games, so this system actually hurts that!
• I don't like it that you can't purchase a craft bag, and it stirs resentment every-time I play. Something like a crafting bag should not be the number one reason to get a subscription and designing this as a negative to get you to subscribe feels bad.

Whats funny is I actually like the combat, I like the graphics and UI with addons. I love the music and love being in Tamriel.
Its just when I log in, I get mad. I have to physically try to play the game and not think about it.

How do I get past this or is there even a way?

*They added endeavors,you'll have to have patience to get what you want for free.
*They are limited time and gone til they put em back,some items haven't been back yet.
*All games,movies,shows do that,keep ppl interested and wanting to come back.
*Land mass is dependant on area they are doing story for,some small,some larger.How good or bad it is, is opinion based.
*Damage done is based on a few different parts of the system,magic/stamina is just part of it.
*Craftbag is not number one reason,it's just part,the main selling point was all DLCs except latest chapter,and more crowns that the 15$ crown package.You pay a sub for WoW and still have to buy dlcs to play areas,no free currency,and nothing special,so dunno what the issue is with this part.

spartaxoxo

I should also note that I fall in between your two views. I agree with SilverBride that convenience should be a perk of subbing and don't view it as wrong or predatory inherently.

But unlike her, I have drawn a line at the craft bag. That is because I feel when a convenience items feels mandatory because there is no in game equivalent and on top of that not paying is extremely inconvenient through developer contrivance, it becomes p2w-adjacent rather than a nice perk.

DarkWombat

spartaxoxo wrote: »

You can't put your own personal view as hers, and then say she can't have it both ways. She clearly doesn't view convenience items as a problem being the main draw for subbing, and instead actually insists that subbing should have that type of perk. It is you that think it's wrong.

She said the craft bag was not enough by itself to make her subscribe stating the value one gets from the other benefits of a subscription. If the value of those items were enough she should not be upset if a crafting bag was sold separately. Obviously she said she would be mad at that, so the other perks aren't enough, making the crafting bag weigh too much as far as value goes. And a luxury item weighing that much (*as you yourself said you ONLY get the sub for the bag)over content is wrong...

Elsonso

DarkWombat wrote: »

I don't like all these mounts and cool items behind loot boxes.

I can't say that I disagree with that. The way I deal with them is just to not want them. Chances are that, even if I had them, I would not use them. I don't like flashy mounts. Find a reason to not need them.

DarkWombat wrote: »

I don't like artificial "LIMITED TIME" pop ups when I log in to create fear of missing out.

I find that a lot of the FOMO in the world is artificial, so I equate what ZOS does to sales at local stores, etc. This makes it something that I ignore every day, and that makes it much easier to ignore these. Anything I am meant to have, I will have.

DarkWombat wrote: »

I don't like buying an expansion like the Skyrim one, and only getting to play half of the story and find out there is another half that is not included in the expansion.

I also wish that they would sell the entire year of content in one package. However, I subscribe to ESO Plus and that gives me everything except for the Chapter, which I then buy separately.

DarkWombat wrote: »

I don't like it how expansions and their land masses and content have gotten smaller and smaller and the content seems to be getting worse not better.

The newer zones seem more detailed, even if "Blackwood" is neither "black/dark" nor "wooded". I do think that Blackwood feels small because there is no massive terrain feature that separates the zone, like we have with Vvardenfell, Summerset, and Elsweyr.

DarkWombat wrote: »

I don't like it that you can't purchase a craft bag, and it stirs resentment every-time I play. Something like a crafting bag should not be the number one reason to get a subscription and designing this as a negative to get you to subscribe feels bad.

I know a lot of people subscribe for the crafting bag, and it is useful, but what I really need from the subscription is the DLC content. I hate not being able to go everywhere. Extra bank space, extra housing space, and craft bag is "inventory management" and that is easier with ESO Plus, but not impossible without. The player just needs to sell or destroy more things.

spartaxoxo

DarkWombat wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

You can't put your own personal view as hers, and then say she can't have it both ways. She clearly doesn't view convenience items as a problem being the main draw for subbing, and instead actually insists that subbing should have that type of perk. It is you that think it's wrong.

She said the craft bag was not enough by itself to make her subscribe stating the value one gets from the other benefits of a subscription. If the value of those items were enough she should not be upset if a crafting bag was sold separately. Obviously she said she would be mad at that, so the other perks aren't enough, making the crafting bag weigh too much as far as value goes. And a luxury item weighing that much (*as you yourself said you ONLY get the sub for the bag)over content is wrong...

Her saying "I'd be upset if others got it" =/= SHE feels it weighs too much in the subscription. She clearly thinks it appropriate. I don't agree with her, but she's made it clear she is fine with the current way the craft bag operates. Therefore her stance of "The craft bag is a good and reasonable perk, and therefore I don't think the system needs a change" is perfectly logical. If she agreed it was predatory and bad but still wanted it the same, you'd have a point. But she does not agree with us.

DarkWombat

spartaxoxo wrote: »

If she agreed it was predatory and bad but still wanted it the same, you'd have a point. But she does not agree with us.

Unless your copium levels are off the charts I doubt many would spend money on something and agree it is predatory at the same time.

spartaxoxo

Elsonso wrote: »

I know a lot of people subscribe for the crafting bag, and it is useful, but what I really need from the subscription is the DLC content. I hate not being able to go everywhere. Extra bank space, extra housing space, and craft bag is "inventory management" and that is easier with ESO Plus, but not impossible without. The player just needs to sell or destroy more things.

By the way, if you don't care about the inventory management features, it is cheaper to buy the individual expansions separately than sub once you have all the current stuff/after the first year if you had spent all the money buying up stuff instead buying dlc.

Edit:

spartaxoxo wrote: »

When you factor in all of the dlc, the membership does have a lower upfront cost. But because it's an ongoing cost, it is still a cheaper deal to own the dlc.

A person who has been playing for years would need to buy the Chapter, 2 dungeons, and the DLC every year rather than renting to access it. That's 40 dollars for the chapter and then 5000 crowns for all the dlc (2x dungeon dlcs at 1500 each is 3000 crowns, 2000 crowns for the small dlc is 5000 crowns). That's another 40 dollars.

This means it's 80 dollars each year to get ALL of the content releases for that year vs 139 dollars to access them all with ESO+. And then to access the old ones the following year, it's another 139 dollars. Meanwhile there is a 0 dollar cost to access those old ones you already own the following year. Every year that passes increases the cost to access that dlc on eso+ versus just owning it.

Now a new player coming it will much more expensive because they have to play catchup with all those previous years. So there's a higher upfront cost, so eso+ is cheaper. There are bundles and such to help them though.

Elsweyr (3500 crowns), Year One (4k crowns) and the Morrowind year (3500 crowns) all have bundles. Summerset year and Greymoor year don't so that's another 10k crowns (5k crowns each).

10,000+ 3500 + 4000 + 3500 = 21k crowns to own all the dlc and then 60 bucks more for all the chapters (buying the latest chapter sans discount gives access to all previous chapters). That is 169 dollars to own all the dlc outright. And it's 139 dollars for 1 year of eso+.

However on year 2 of owning all of those old dlc, it's 139 dollars for eso+. And it's 0 dollars for ownership.

So in your first year, it's cheaper to own eso+ because of the high upfront cost of owning all of the dlc. But on year two, it's cheaper to own the dlc. Because to continue to own all dlc moving forward it is 80 dollars (new chapters only) per year versus 139 dollars per year (still paying for previous years chapters and new chapters).

ESO+ is not cheaper for owning all the dlc in the long-term. It's less expensive upfront but then gets more expensive long-term because it is an ongoing cost.

This is why ESO+ adds additonal value to it besides just dlc ownership, such as the craft bag, crowns, extra exp, etc. When you add in all the perks, THAT is what makes it worth it to subscribe rather than own

It is the inventory perks and the bonus crowns that make ESO+ a good deal.

SilverBride

spartaxoxo wrote: »

DarkWombat wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

You can't put your own personal view as hers, and then say she can't have it both ways. She clearly doesn't view convenience items as a problem being the main draw for subbing, and instead actually insists that subbing should have that type of perk. It is you that think it's wrong.

She said the craft bag was not enough by itself to make her subscribe stating the value one gets from the other benefits of a subscription. If the value of those items were enough she should not be upset if a crafting bag was sold separately. Obviously she said she would be mad at that, so the other perks aren't enough, making the crafting bag weigh too much as far as value goes. And a luxury item weighing that much (*as you yourself said you ONLY get the sub for the bag)over content is wrong...

Her saying "I'd be upset if others got it" =/= SHE feels it weighs too much in the subscription. She clearly thinks it appropriate. I don't agree with her, but she's made it clear she is fine with the current way the craft bag operates. Therefore her stance of "The craft bag is a good and reasonable perk, and therefore I don't think the system needs a change" is perfectly logical. If she agreed it was predatory and bad but still wanted it the same, you'd have a point. But she does not agree with us.

That is exactly how I see it and I appreciate that you understand my view even though you don't agree with it.

spartaxoxo

DarkWombat wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

If she agreed it was predatory and bad but still wanted it the same, you'd have a point. But she does not agree with us.

Unless your copium levels are off the charts I doubt many would spend money on something and agree it is predatory at the same time.

I literally just did that exact thing. I do have high "copium" though, I suppose.

SilverBride

DarkWombat wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

I'm not gonna lie, I am mostly subbed for the craft bag. I get the dlc separately anyway.

All the more reason not to sell it separately. It is the main draw for a lot of players and if they let others buy it for a one time cost subscriptions would plummet.

Subscribing has to have perks with a positive impact to make it worth the cost to the player.

But that's wrong and borderline predatory business practice. A craft bag should not be the sole reason to sub, ever. That is a convenience item, that's total BS.

A convenience item isn't necessary to gameplay. It has no impact on how successful a player can be.

What would be predatory is if they only offered certain sets for example to subscribers, or other such items that do affect a player's success.

worrallj

I share your frustration with the microtransaction business model but I don't share your other complaints (quality if dlc and combat stats system).

As far as the craft bag being the main motivators for ESO+ subscriptions.... I mean what should be the main motivation? They absolutely need subscribers and if it's not the craft bag it's going to be something even more essential.

But getting dinged with all kinds cheap casino "crown crates limited time only" [snip] is definitely a huge pet peeves of mine. At times it can feel like your being manipulated like a rat in a maze and it's really really annoying.

[edited for profanity bypass]