Real tanks problems = (why no tanks in game) :

kojou

The is nothing to stop a player from running heavy armor sets that focus on damage in this game. You will be successful at almost every dungeon with the exception some hard mode boss encounters that require a bit more self sustaining.

Kryptonite_Kent

There are no "tanks" in the game because outside of the top end vet trials and brand new vet dungeons... you dont need a real tank, any idiot dps with a taunt and a little bit of self healing / maybe a single tank set like pariah can be a "tank" in normal dungeons, arena, a lot of vet dungeons, and probably a lot of normal trials... this is also the reason that no one needs an actual "healer"

Its more beneficial for time and ease to just have 4 DD's with one being a pseudo tank and everyone using self heals... but this is all because of how this game functions, actual specs are almost irrelevant

Kiralyn2000

Based on what I've seen in the forums of many other MMOs over the years, there are always tank shortages in Random Group Finders (and forming groups in chat).

And it's not because tanks can't do solo damage. Or because tanks are boring. It's because tanks are seen as responsibility - they're the 'group leader', they're the ones keeping the party from wiping, they're the ones leading the way/etc.

Not everyone enjoys that responsibility, and therefore not everyone will make a tank. No matter how much you crank their DPS, or try to make them more "fun".


Just like not everyone wants to be the team leader in sports, or the team manager on a job, etc. Many people are content to be "part of the group" or a follower. You don't need to do silly things like "oh, let tanks do Massive DPS while turtling behind their shield!" to try to change that.

As mentioned - other games, where there's cool things like Evasion Tanks, or Reflect Tanks, or Tanks that can do decent DPS... still have Tank shortages in their group finders. No matter how "cool" you make Tanks, they're still Tanks, and a lot of players just don't want to do that.

Grandchamp1989

Also If I'm a DD and the Tank only press one button each fight (taunt) on the right target we can clear the dungeon.

If I'm a Tank and the dd only press 1 button each fight i'll sit there till next week because the dmg is so low.

One role is shoehorned while the other really isn't.

Reese_Flamelocks

I think we're all probably just debating what D&D originators faced with its own creation, and of which many permutations throughout the years in games and MMOs have explored.

Hard to kill, but doesn't kill hard enough. (Tanks)

Helps others not die, but is kind of hard to kill, but kind of doesn't kill much. (Healers)

Can kill fast and many and is easy to kill. (Mages)

The wild, or trump, card-- kills fast, and is slightly easier to kill than the first two, but not the third. (Rogues)

Every extremely difficult encounter in any game will rely on this matrix of skills, which is why we're having this discussion of "fake" this or that.

We all know the saying that "A jack of all trades, but a master of none" actually has a second verse that goes "which is usually better than a master of one."

Not so in this world of fiction we play. Better to be a master of one.

Avoranti

There are a couple options for tanks that do damage. Warden tanks, and I might get scolded for this but Xynodes Natures Bounty build works great in content that is add heavy. It uses Azureblight and all the frosty stuff wardens have to its benefit.
For my DK tanks, I like using Grothdar monster helm sometimes if dps is low.

There are some other options too. I have 18 characters, 5 are tanks (2 DK, warden, necro, nb), 2 healers (necro, templar). I enjoy tanking and healing but understand the frustration when the group isn’t optimized.

Nagastani

Succuby wrote: »

Just think - you start the game.

You do no damage, have problems even with mobs in overland.

Your DPS is 4k.

You are buff bot for a groups with no damage and you even can not do effective damage.

Sets you use before now - work only on DD, so to play is just pain.

That is how tanks lives and plays.

Some one say - change gear to DD.

OK ! But if tank change gear to dd he see more interesting game play and than after some time he - DO NOT WANT PLAY TANK !

I start as a tank. Each member of our guild has tank

But when we need tank - who will go tank ? No one wants. Because game play ... #$_&-+ ... not really interesting to play.

No tanks = no tanks in random = fake tanks, because no tanks and people need to dayly.

If as a tank you get into party, if it has low dps and is not really good - you can do ... nothing. But DD can easely solo a lot of dunguans.

Tanks can not ! Sets tanks use before was remade. Now tanks can not do damage. It is not interesting to play = no tanks.

Return procs to tanks, give abilitys that let tank do normal damage.

DD can tank with frost stuffs, but tanks can not do normal DPS in block with sword and shield.

Make it possible, add sets, return old sets, give skils to let tanks do normal damage.

With out it - it will not be interesting to play tanks.

If something is not interesting = no one play it, so no tanks !

Simple logick, simple truth.

Good DD can do 50-60+ k dps on 3 kk dummy.

If it would be possible for tank do 30-35-40k dps on 3 kk dummy whyle in block (may be casting damage skill in exchange of HP) it would not be game braking !

Tanks can do up to 15 k dps passivly before, now tanks can not and are limited by sets. Tanks can only bash now to get some dps, but it cost a lot of resources.

It will not be a lot of tanks if its game play is ... like it is now.

I think a lot of people will play tanks if they can do damage whyle tanking, because now tanks fill itself helpless at all in bad groups ! It is not what tanks want !

So, retired DPS Tank here.

Back in the day, people complained because 'hero tanks' were doing too much damage using things like Zaan + Elf Bane. And so, about 6 months after I started seeing those posts, ZOS began the process of going thru and nerfing many of the notably good DPS combos that helped Tanks do one of two things:

1) Carry people. As many groups lacked good DPS and the healer was pointing the staff in the wrong direction
2) Contributing faithfully to group DPS which actually helped relieve pressure on the group as a whole and made everyone's job I don't want to say easier but less intense.

Furthermore, generally speaking, any talk on here of Tank's doing appreciatable DPS is usually met with howls of salt and contempt. In fact, Tanks get alot of that anyways because we might make one or two little mistakes. You know, we don't "know the run" as well as Tucker does.

I finally had enough of their crap and quit. Got other things to do. Regarding this, I think the community made its bed now it can lay in it. That's the problem with the direction ESO is going in, it just doesn't feel "free to play" anymore because as soon as someone gets offended because of another person's build or idea it gets trashed. Enjoy your Tanks dealing no dmg, unable to carry the group and thus ... make up for other's lack of experience ... and no Tanks around as much because the attitude in general towards us is not friendly or professional.

FeedbackOnly

Because a DPS at cp 200 can tank veteran content?

So why take a DPS?

Dps tell you what sets to wear [snip]

[edited for baiting]

Amottica

Kiralyn2000 wrote: »

Based on what I've seen in the forums of many other MMOs over the years, there are always tank shortages in Random Group Finders (and forming groups in chat).

And it's not because tanks can't do solo damage. Or because tanks are boring. It's because tanks are seen as responsibility - they're the 'group leader', they're the ones keeping the party from wiping, they're the ones leading the way/etc.

Not everyone enjoys that responsibility, and therefore not everyone will make a tank. No matter how much you crank their DPS, or try to make them more "fun".


Just like not everyone wants to be the team leader in sports, or the team manager on a job, etc. Many people are content to be "part of the group" or a follower. You don't need to do silly things like "oh, let tanks do Massive DPS while turtling behind their shield!" to try to change that.

As mentioned - other games, where there's cool things like Evasion Tanks, or Reflect Tanks, or Tanks that can do decent DPS... still have Tank shortages in their group finders. No matter how "cool" you make Tanks, they're still Tanks, and a lot of players just don't want to do that.

A typical MMORPG raid group is DPS heavy which is part of the reason there is more DPS in a game. Also played tend to want to do damage which adds to that.

ESO is the only game I have heard tanks saying they avoid the GF because they got tired of getting groups that could not clear the content and had low DPS. It is clearly not them as I have seen them tank successfully. I have seen the very low DPS when I have queued solo. I think some people do less than 10k.

BlueRaven

Nagastani wrote: »

Succuby wrote: »

Just think - you start the game.

You do no damage, have problems even with mobs in overland.

Your DPS is 4k.

You are buff bot for a groups with no damage and you even can not do effective damage.

Sets you use before now - work only on DD, so to play is just pain.

That is how tanks lives and plays.

Some one say - change gear to DD.

OK ! But if tank change gear to dd he see more interesting game play and than after some time he - DO NOT WANT PLAY TANK !

I start as a tank. Each member of our guild has tank

But when we need tank - who will go tank ? No one wants. Because game play ... #$_&-+ ... not really interesting to play.

No tanks = no tanks in random = fake tanks, because no tanks and people need to dayly.

If as a tank you get into party, if it has low dps and is not really good - you can do ... nothing. But DD can easely solo a lot of dunguans.

Tanks can not ! Sets tanks use before was remade. Now tanks can not do damage. It is not interesting to play = no tanks.

Return procs to tanks, give abilitys that let tank do normal damage.

DD can tank with frost stuffs, but tanks can not do normal DPS in block with sword and shield.

Make it possible, add sets, return old sets, give skils to let tanks do normal damage.

With out it - it will not be interesting to play tanks.

If something is not interesting = no one play it, so no tanks !

Simple logick, simple truth.

Good DD can do 50-60+ k dps on 3 kk dummy.

If it would be possible for tank do 30-35-40k dps on 3 kk dummy whyle in block (may be casting damage skill in exchange of HP) it would not be game braking !

Tanks can do up to 15 k dps passivly before, now tanks can not and are limited by sets. Tanks can only bash now to get some dps, but it cost a lot of resources.

It will not be a lot of tanks if its game play is ... like it is now.

I think a lot of people will play tanks if they can do damage whyle tanking, because now tanks fill itself helpless at all in bad groups ! It is not what tanks want !

So, retired DPS Tank here.

Back in the day, people complained because 'hero tanks' were doing too much damage using things like Zaan + Elf Bane. And so, about 6 months after I started seeing those posts, ZOS began the process of going thru and nerfing many of the notably good DPS combos that helped Tanks do one of two things:

1) Carry people. As many groups lacked good DPS and the healer was pointing the staff in the wrong direction
2) Contributing faithfully to group DPS which actually helped relieve pressure on the group as a whole and made everyone's job I don't want to say easier but less intense.

Furthermore, generally speaking, any talk on here of Tank's doing appreciatable DPS is usually met with howls of salt and contempt. In fact, Tanks get alot of that anyways because we might make one or two little mistakes. You know, we don't "know the run" as well as Tucker does.

I finally had enough of their crap and quit. Got other things to do. Regarding this, I think the community made its bed now it can lay in it. That's the problem with the direction ESO is going in, it just doesn't feel "free to play" anymore because as soon as someone gets offended because of another person's build or idea it gets trashed. Enjoy your Tanks dealing no dmg, unable to carry the group and thus ... make up for other's lack of experience ... and no Tanks around as much because the attitude in general towards us is not friendly or professional.

There is a lot of truth in this. A lot of the reasons why there are so few tanks IS community driven. So the pain the community is feeling is of their own doing.

That all being said, I do wish the dungeon scene can revert back to how the creators first conceived of it, where tanks and healers were expected to play a significant role in the damage done during dungeons, but I fear it will never be.

StevieKingslayer

Tanks can be built to do damage. My groups main tank can to damage. He took HM Lady Thorn from like 14% to like 1% and then got cc stunned and got wiped. There was alot of chat screaming. We were all dead on the floor. But he did it, and almost did it himself.

Dk's especially atm, have the ability to produce dmg. Tank parsing is a real thing for some of us now. He built damage in to contribute and because we often get pug's where I carry dps, so he built damage in to help, since he's such a good tank anyway, he can afford to lose some survivability to help.

I was doing overland content on my tank the other day with just talons and whip. Didnt take more than a few seconds longer than my end tier dps, since overland so easy anyway. *shrug*

etchedpixels

aetherial_heavenn wrote: »

What seems to be under-rated, or not really catered for is the melee weapon wielding berserker champion tank wading in at the front of the group (or alone) cutting a swathe through the enemies and whose main motivation is to defeat those enemies or die gloriously in the attempt, surrounded by a huge pile of bodies.

You can build those kinds of characters easily enough except for harder veteran content. If you go mostly stamina and medium armour along with a taunt and some shields or self heals then it works perfectly well for most content. The biggest problem is that if you go 2h / sword & board then all your resources for blocking are stamina so you have to be very sure you can sustain.

To be honest the entire bar swappery thing makes a nonsense of combat in this game anyway from a feel point of view. Pardon me whilst I casually flip my shielld onto my back pull out a staff, bang it on the ground and put my shield back on again.. seriously 8)

But then pretty much all MMO combat is looney tunes stuff. Do a bit of re-enactment in a shield wall and the games are so far from anything even in many cases the myth.

etchedpixels

WraithShadow13 wrote: »

Look at DPS, for example. My main is DPS, or i should say "DPS" because he does *maybe* 17-23k damage. It's fine for most missions and base PvE but it's entirely laughable ANYWHERE else in-game.

If you are doing 17-23K on real targets solo those are really decent numbers and well well above the average dungeon normal group. Even if you are only doing 17-23K on a trial dummy with all the buffs you are above the kind of baseline that progression guilds suggest for normal trials.

Many of the pug groups I tank have a combined DPS less than 23K.

huntgod_ESO

You can actually build a resource neutral or even resource positive tank bash build that does 30k and up...the build also works well in PVP, so you can go between the two with no real changes.

You replace your gap closer with pierce armor and it's a real tank...who deals solid DPS and it's really easy to play and gear up.

drsalvation

NerfSeige wrote: »

thorwyn wrote: »

A tank dealing 45k on a 3m dummy while blocking would NOT be game breaking???

Lmao, yeah.

I feel that these people that says tank is not fun to play probably have not done really hard content and jesus, overland is so easy you can do it tank gear, heck if you want to do damage use proc sets that scale with resists and health.

Like, who even queue for PUGs wearing full tank gear, at least wear one damage set like crimson or do a medium tank with 2H and stuff, learn to play lmao

The problem is: You CAN'T tank solo arenas like vateshran (any difficulty) or maelstrom (veteran). Why? Because of DPS checks.
There's no problem with DPS checks, but WHY in heck do we get punished with an insta-kill if we can't kill a ghost to get out of the ring before they all blow up? A massive damage that a tank could mitigate would be better, DPS would STILL need to do the DPS checks, and tanks would NEED to do tank checks.
The ENTIRE arena is fun as hell as it is for any types of builds, but they just had to go and ruin it during that last fight, forcing tanks to switch builds JUST to do that arena, and switch back later to tank (before armory, that meant spending an awful lot of gold for only 1 activity).
Second, veteran dlc dungeons and trials, yes, they ARE fun, but also, the heavy mechanics that will instantly kill ANY player, tanks included, if they don't follow mechanics, it completely ruins the point for a tank to exist (or at the very least, to optimize their tank build). Why should I spend all points on health and armor and defensive buffs if I'm still gonna get insta-killed for not standing on the red circle?

And to elaborate on that question, I'm NOT saying that those insta-kill mechanics in dungeons are poor design, they actually make the run fun to play. I'm just saying that there's no point on optimizing a tank build since you can still die just as easy as other players.

All of this is to say that if you make a tank, you'll be missing out on so much of the game's content.
If you make a damage build, you can enjoy 100% of the game's content.

There's a defense cap. You can't go over 50% if I recall correctly.
But there's no damage cap, I've seen players shooting for 90k dps.
In PvP, as a tank, I can still get absolutely NUKED by some stealthy nightblade that can pretty much one-shot me.

(And before you say it's impossible to one-shot players, I mean it in the sense that I can only do break-free and before I can even chug a potion, move, or cast any other skill, I'm already dead. The player will ambush me with a massive burst damage that CC's me, and then spam the rest of their combo, so it's not a one-shot for them, but it IS a one-shot for me).

The main problem as I can think of is that this game handles MASSIVE numbers (it IS after all a math game, no matter how skilled you are, if you don't have numbers on your side, you can't do anything). The fact that it allows for DPS to shoot for 90k, but hardcaps defense is already a bad design: It implies tanking won't be your best bet to enjoy this game.

And more importantly, it all revolves to "balance"
As tanks, we have very low resource sustain. Like 500 stam/mag recovery.
That means in PvP, I'll run out of resouces before I can even kill a non-tank player.
Not only that, because I pretty much threw away all my damage for tanking, it means that I exhausted my stamina and magicka to tickle that other player who has less than half the amount of health that I have (I could barely drop them below 95%). And in the end, I'm out of stamina, I'm not getting any resources back, and the player is absolutely nuking the hell out of me with massive damage.
So how come non-tank players can tank against tanks way better than a tank tanking non-tank players? (lol, I know how that sounds) You could think that a damage player would sacrifice defense for damage, so even if my damage output is low, I should be able to still deal damage, right? But nope, they'll just hover at 90% health until we're exhausted and then they will nuke us with their massive 1.5k resource recovery.

Even as a tank, I still take 10k dmg in PvP, I can only imagine what that damage number would look like with players who aren't tanks.

I personally think that this game should have hard caps on everything.
Let builds be more of a matter of taste and choice and not a matter of necessity.
Make numbers be in more proximity to each other, where tanks can kill players even if it means prolonging the battle, and players can kill fully defensive tanks without getting stuck on an endless loop. And the only way I can think of to make this a viable choice is with hard-caps on everything.

There could be better alternatives, but none that I could think of right now.

peacenote

So, I kind of hear you, because as I mainly heal, I get frustrated when people say healers shouldn't help with DPS, as that is part of the uniqueness of ESO.

I think that half of the problem - can't beat mobs, can't quest easily, etc. - is fixed with the Amory.

But I can see how it would be nice for tanks to feel not completely helpless when there's 1% left on the boss and you can do basically 0% dps.

That said, I LOVE my necro tank and I find it challenging and fun, so it may be that those upset with tanking just aren't built for support. Or perhaps tanks should be given more tools for rezzing, which would allow them to "save the day" more without it having to be through doing damage. Every MMO I've ever played has had less tanks than anything else, but until the Amory I agree that it was just painful to level a tank in this game.

Ksariyu

The problem of tanks being the least popular role is not nearly exclusive to ESO. In fact, I've yet to see a game where this isn't the case.

From my experience, it seems that the role of tanking is just counter to what people want to do in a game. Most people like to play the hero, and to feel powerful, and tanking just doesn't give you that experience. Yes, a few people may get enjoyment from knowing that their team succeeded from their sacrifice, but clearly they are the minority. The same principle applies to healer/support roles, though these actually tend to be a bit more popular than tanks due to the fact that those who would rather be selfless and helpful also don't want to fight or kill things in the first place, and have no interest in going head to head with the big bad boss. This leaves tank in a really undesirable spot, limited to mostly to the players who crossover between combat and strategy games.

In ESO in particular, there's the additional problem of how restrictive tanking is. Most people will tell you that 1H+Shield is the ONLY weapon type to use. It certainly is the easiest and most effective (Ironic considering the other debates currently ongoing in the community). Ice staff is the only other contender, and it's still quite behind. You're also usually forced into group support sets, which make up a small percentage of heavy armors, and you pretty much have to use heavy armor as a tank. This, like everything else in the game, highlights the issue of having the illusion of choice that shatters the second you realize how big the gap is between the best and second best options.

VaranisArano

I confess I don't understand the objection that tanks can't "tank" solo arenas. Personal experience here - my main tank couldn't tank her way past the first arena in VMA the first time I tried it.

Why don't I have a problem with that?

Because solo play means doing it ALL.

Solo play means that we are tank, healer, and damage dealer. We've got to be able to take hits and survive them. We've got to be able to heal ourself. And yes, we've got to be able to deal damage too. If we can't deal enough damage to kill stuff before it or the mechanics kill us...well, this isn't a group dungeon where we're protecting the DDs who are actually going to kill stuff. Its just us. We, solo, fulfill all three roles.

Healers don't heal vMA to death.

Tanks can't tank vMA to death.

DDs who can't tank hits when needed or heal themselves aren't going to DPS vMA to death because their glass cannon is gonna be shattered.

Solo content means doing it ALL. So I can't say I understand the objection that Tanks should get to tank their way through a solo arena. I mean, the first time I tried vMA on my tank, she was probably doing 6-8k DPS in her full tank gear. And you think I should've been able to complete the arena with that?

Personally, I figure that's rather low for an arena meant to challenge players to do it ALL, and so I can't say I'm surprised that I hit difficulties in the first arena.

Amottica

VaranisArano wrote: »

I confess I don't understand the objection that tanks can't "tank" solo arenas. Personal experience here - my main tank couldn't tank her way past the first arena in VMA the first time I tried it.

Why don't I have a problem with that?

Because solo play means doing it ALL.

Solo play means that we are tank, healer, and damage dealer. We've got to be able to take hits and survive them. We've got to be able to heal ourself. And yes, we've got to be able to deal damage too. If we can't deal enough damage to kill stuff before it or the mechanics kill us...well, this isn't a group dungeon where we're protecting the DDs who are actually going to kill stuff. Its just us. We, solo, fulfill all three roles.

Healers don't heal vMA to death.

Tanks can't tank vMA to death.

DDs who can't tank hits when needed or heal themselves aren't going to DPS vMA to death because their glass cannon is gonna be shattered.

Solo content means doing it ALL. So I can't say I understand the objection that Tanks should get to tank their way through a solo arena. I mean, the first time I tried vMA on my tank, she was probably doing 6-8k DPS in her full tank gear. And you think I should've been able to complete the arena with that?

Personally, I figure that's rather low for an arena meant to challenge players to do it ALL, and so I can't say I'm surprised that I hit difficulties in the first arena.

I thought the game was "Play as you want". Are you suggesting that does not mean they want I choose to play can do anything in the game?

Mandragora

I agree with Op about ordinary tanks being pure health bags as boring gameplay, but I liked the concepts in MMOs with some twist. Everyone can agree that you cannot have the best armor and burst dps together, but there are 2 ways for me:

As mentioned already - combat strategic tweaks - you can have aoe dots based on your health, you can have reflect, then you can have certain kind of damage focused tanks, which leads to:
dps cool/ flavor tweaks - I liked if there was some dps connected to heavy armor archetypes - like palladins with light damage, dark knights with bleeds/chocking animations, avatars of fire/cold/other elements gods, revenants with ghosts, etc which doesn't have to be good dps, but it looks and feels cool.

In ESO a lot of that is taken away into armor sets, but still a lot of them are just pure health bags.
And the flavor in classes - I think dragonknight can be fun, templar can be RP as palladin, you can make shadow tank in nightblade class, well frost is almost exclusive for tanks, also necromants are cool, so you can pick up something in ESO, but still some of is not distinctive enough for me, maybe because I don't like the classes being more gamy and less really cool fully advanced idea. It is just a torso cut in 3 gameplays of healer, dps and tank. And that is what it is for me no matter if I want it or not.

Darrett

VaranisArano wrote: »

I confess I don't understand the objection that tanks can't "tank" solo arenas. Personal experience here - my main tank couldn't tank her way past the first arena in VMA the first time I tried it.

Why don't I have a problem with that?

Because solo play means doing it ALL.

Solo play means that we are tank, healer, and damage dealer. We've got to be able to take hits and survive them. We've got to be able to heal ourself. And yes, we've got to be able to deal damage too. If we can't deal enough damage to kill stuff before it or the mechanics kill us...well, this isn't a group dungeon where we're protecting the DDs who are actually going to kill stuff. Its just us. We, solo, fulfill all three roles.

Healers don't heal vMA to death.

Tanks can't tank vMA to death.

DDs who can't tank hits when needed or heal themselves aren't going to DPS vMA to death because their glass cannon is gonna be shattered.

Solo content means doing it ALL. So I can't say I understand the objection that Tanks should get to tank their way through a solo arena. I mean, the first time I tried vMA on my tank, she was probably doing 6-8k DPS in her full tank gear. And you think I should've been able to complete the arena with that?

Personally, I figure that's rather low for an arena meant to challenge players to do it ALL, and so I can't say I'm surprised that I hit difficulties in the first arena.

Tanks can tank arenas to death, though. Aside from Vateshran, there really aren’t any DPS checks. I’ve done VMA a lot on builds with extremely low DPS, you just won’t win any speed prizes.

Even for the Void Lich, you can cheese the only DPS check with Undo if you like.

So I also don’t understand the complaint, because you can do it. It isn’t as easy on a healer or tank setup, but there’s nothing preventing the clear.

Brrrofski

The reason people don't play tank is the same in every game. Less people find it interesting.

And people can't do damage because everyone builds a tank like they're tanking hardmode rockgrove.

For 4 man content, you can use whatever you want.

My saptank can tank every DLC hardmode dungeon, with no healer and pull off 25-30k damage (depending on mechanics).

BalticBlues

Once upon a time, Tanks in ESO could do good damage.
[snip]
So ZOS crippled Tank damage to a point that today Tanks only can tickle...

[edited for bashing]

Michaelkeir

Amottica wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

I confess I don't understand the objection that tanks can't "tank" solo arenas. Personal experience here - my main tank couldn't tank her way past the first arena in VMA the first time I tried it.

Why don't I have a problem with that?

Because solo play means doing it ALL.

Solo play means that we are tank, healer, and damage dealer. We've got to be able to take hits and survive them. We've got to be able to heal ourself. And yes, we've got to be able to deal damage too. If we can't deal enough damage to kill stuff before it or the mechanics kill us...well, this isn't a group dungeon where we're protecting the DDs who are actually going to kill stuff. Its just us. We, solo, fulfill all three roles.

Healers don't heal vMA to death.

Tanks can't tank vMA to death.

DDs who can't tank hits when needed or heal themselves aren't going to DPS vMA to death because their glass cannon is gonna be shattered.

Solo content means doing it ALL. So I can't say I understand the objection that Tanks should get to tank their way through a solo arena. I mean, the first time I tried vMA on my tank, she was probably doing 6-8k DPS in her full tank gear. And you think I should've been able to complete the arena with that?

Personally, I figure that's rather low for an arena meant to challenge players to do it ALL, and so I can't say I'm surprised that I hit difficulties in the first arena.

I thought the game was "Play as you want". Are you suggesting that does not mean they want I choose to play can do anything in the game?

That’s the thing. You can “Play as you want”, but they never said you’d be able to do everything in the game well. So you could technically play as a bare fisted Nord if you wanted or sneak thief high-elf assassin. And run some vet stuff, just don’t expect to do it in a timely manner. Besides the play as you want “wall” was made mostly by the community and not the delves. So if a guild or group refuses to let you run with them with less then optimized builds then that has nothing to do with the devs.

As as far as tanks being able to run things, they can. As others have said, it’s possible to run solo vet arenas on tanks, but common sense would tell you to run a DPS set to get through it in a timely manner. I’ve run a sword and board dragon knight tank through vet Maelstrom Arena and only thing I changed was I added self crafted dps set to help with the damage.

Now with the armory system, you can literally change specs on the fly so you could swap between a tank spec and dps spec in an instant or a trip to your house if you choose not to pay for the convenience of having the guy with you.

VaranisArano

Amottica wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

I confess I don't understand the objection that tanks can't "tank" solo arenas. Personal experience here - my main tank couldn't tank her way past the first arena in VMA the first time I tried it.

Why don't I have a problem with that?

Because solo play means doing it ALL.

Solo play means that we are tank, healer, and damage dealer. We've got to be able to take hits and survive them. We've got to be able to heal ourself. And yes, we've got to be able to deal damage too. If we can't deal enough damage to kill stuff before it or the mechanics kill us...well, this isn't a group dungeon where we're protecting the DDs who are actually going to kill stuff. Its just us. We, solo, fulfill all three roles.

Healers don't heal vMA to death.

Tanks can't tank vMA to death.

DDs who can't tank hits when needed or heal themselves aren't going to DPS vMA to death because their glass cannon is gonna be shattered.

Solo content means doing it ALL. So I can't say I understand the objection that Tanks should get to tank their way through a solo arena. I mean, the first time I tried vMA on my tank, she was probably doing 6-8k DPS in her full tank gear. And you think I should've been able to complete the arena with that?

Personally, I figure that's rather low for an arena meant to challenge players to do it ALL, and so I can't say I'm surprised that I hit difficulties in the first arena.

I thought the game was "Play as you want". Are you suggesting that does not mean they want I choose to play can do anything in the game?

When the Devs have talked about it, "Play the way you like" generally means that classes will be viable, but not necessarily optimal in most roles. It doesn't mean that I can complete every piece of content in whatever build I can slap together.

Darrett wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

I confess I don't understand the objection that tanks can't "tank" solo arenas. Personal experience here - my main tank couldn't tank her way past the first arena in VMA the first time I tried it.

Why don't I have a problem with that?

Because solo play means doing it ALL.

Solo play means that we are tank, healer, and damage dealer. We've got to be able to take hits and survive them. We've got to be able to heal ourself. And yes, we've got to be able to deal damage too. If we can't deal enough damage to kill stuff before it or the mechanics kill us...well, this isn't a group dungeon where we're protecting the DDs who are actually going to kill stuff. Its just us. We, solo, fulfill all three roles.

Healers don't heal vMA to death.

Tanks can't tank vMA to death.

DDs who can't tank hits when needed or heal themselves aren't going to DPS vMA to death because their glass cannon is gonna be shattered.

Solo content means doing it ALL. So I can't say I understand the objection that Tanks should get to tank their way through a solo arena. I mean, the first time I tried vMA on my tank, she was probably doing 6-8k DPS in her full tank gear. And you think I should've been able to complete the arena with that?

Personally, I figure that's rather low for an arena meant to challenge players to do it ALL, and so I can't say I'm surprised that I hit difficulties in the first arena.

Tanks can tank arenas to death, though. Aside from Vateshran, there really aren’t any DPS checks. I’ve done VMA a lot on builds with extremely low DPS, you just won’t win any speed prizes.

Even for the Void Lich, you can cheese the only DPS check with Undo if you like.

So I also don’t understand the complaint, because you can do it. It isn’t as easy on a healer or tank setup, but there’s nothing preventing the clear.

It was a couple years since I last tried on my tank. It's not that I doubt you, it's just that I've seen several other tanks complain because their tank build wasn't able to complete vMA or Vateshran. And so a part of me thinks, "Well, doesn't it make sense that you should change your tank build until you can?"

But that's not been the answer they were looking for. They were hoping that ZOS would change the content so their current tank build could finish without being stymied by the DPS checks.

drsalvation

I mean, why would there be sets like harbinger, resilient yokeda, crimson, etc that are supposed to be tank sets, that also deal damage, when the role of tank "isn't supposed to be a damage build"?

Why is sword and shield limited to just tanking? Why can't we have a DPS sword and shield build that is actually effective? (I'm not saying a tank that can do DPS, I just want to use sword and shield in a DPS set,

VaranisArano wrote: »

I confess I don't understand the objection that tanks can't "tank" solo arenas. Personal experience here - my main tank couldn't tank her way past the first arena in VMA the first time I tried it.

Why don't I have a problem with that?

Because solo play means doing it ALL.

Solo play means that we are tank, healer, and damage dealer. We've got to be able to take hits and survive them. We've got to be able to heal ourself. And yes, we've got to be able to deal damage too. If we can't deal enough damage to kill stuff before it or the mechanics kill us...well, this isn't a group dungeon where we're protecting the DDs who are actually going to kill stuff. Its just us. We, solo, fulfill all three roles.

Healers don't heal vMA to death.

Tanks can't tank vMA to death.

DDs who can't tank hits when needed or heal themselves aren't going to DPS vMA to death because their glass cannon is gonna be shattered.

Solo content means doing it ALL. So I can't say I understand the objection that Tanks should get to tank their way through a solo arena. I mean, the first time I tried vMA on my tank, she was probably doing 6-8k DPS in her full tank gear. And you think I should've been able to complete the arena with that?

Personally, I figure that's rather low for an arena meant to challenge players to do it ALL, and so I can't say I'm surprised that I hit difficulties in the first arena.

I don't need to change my DPS build to do the solo arenas tho, I can simply swap malacath's band of brutality for ring of the pale order.

madrab73

VaranisArano wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

I confess I don't understand the objection that tanks can't "tank" solo arenas. Personal experience here - my main tank couldn't tank her way past the first arena in VMA the first time I tried it.

Why don't I have a problem with that?

Because solo play means doing it ALL.

Solo play means that we are tank, healer, and damage dealer. We've got to be able to take hits and survive them. We've got to be able to heal ourself. And yes, we've got to be able to deal damage too. If we can't deal enough damage to kill stuff before it or the mechanics kill us...well, this isn't a group dungeon where we're protecting the DDs who are actually going to kill stuff. Its just us. We, solo, fulfill all three roles.

Healers don't heal vMA to death.

Tanks can't tank vMA to death.

DDs who can't tank hits when needed or heal themselves aren't going to DPS vMA to death because their glass cannon is gonna be shattered.

Solo content means doing it ALL. So I can't say I understand the objection that Tanks should get to tank their way through a solo arena. I mean, the first time I tried vMA on my tank, she was probably doing 6-8k DPS in her full tank gear. And you think I should've been able to complete the arena with that?

Personally, I figure that's rather low for an arena meant to challenge players to do it ALL, and so I can't say I'm surprised that I hit difficulties in the first arena.

I thought the game was "Play as you want". Are you suggesting that does not mean they want I choose to play can do anything in the game?

When the Devs have talked about it, "Play the way you like" generally means that classes will be viable, but not necessarily optimal in most roles. It doesn't mean that I can complete every piece of content in whatever build I can slap together.

Darrett wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

I confess I don't understand the objection that tanks can't "tank" solo arenas. Personal experience here - my main tank couldn't tank her way past the first arena in VMA the first time I tried it.

Why don't I have a problem with that?

Because solo play means doing it ALL.

Solo play means that we are tank, healer, and damage dealer. We've got to be able to take hits and survive them. We've got to be able to heal ourself. And yes, we've got to be able to deal damage too. If we can't deal enough damage to kill stuff before it or the mechanics kill us...well, this isn't a group dungeon where we're protecting the DDs who are actually going to kill stuff. Its just us. We, solo, fulfill all three roles.

Healers don't heal vMA to death.

Tanks can't tank vMA to death.

DDs who can't tank hits when needed or heal themselves aren't going to DPS vMA to death because their glass cannon is gonna be shattered.

Solo content means doing it ALL. So I can't say I understand the objection that Tanks should get to tank their way through a solo arena. I mean, the first time I tried vMA on my tank, she was probably doing 6-8k DPS in her full tank gear. And you think I should've been able to complete the arena with that?

Personally, I figure that's rather low for an arena meant to challenge players to do it ALL, and so I can't say I'm surprised that I hit difficulties in the first arena.

Tanks can tank arenas to death, though. Aside from Vateshran, there really aren’t any DPS checks. I’ve done VMA a lot on builds with extremely low DPS, you just won’t win any speed prizes.

Even for the Void Lich, you can cheese the only DPS check with Undo if you like.

So I also don’t understand the complaint, because you can do it. It isn’t as easy on a healer or tank setup, but there’s nothing preventing the clear.

It was a couple years since I last tried on my tank. It's not that I doubt you, it's just that I've seen several other tanks complain because their tank build wasn't able to complete vMA or Vateshran. And so a part of me thinks, "Well, doesn't it make sense that you should change your tank build until you can?"

But that's not been the answer they were looking for. They were hoping that ZOS would change the content so their current tank build could finish without being stymied by the DPS checks.

A search on Youtube would show you Xynode clearing VMA on a tank?

VaranisArano

madrab73 wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

I confess I don't understand the objection that tanks can't "tank" solo arenas. Personal experience here - my main tank couldn't tank her way past the first arena in VMA the first time I tried it.

Why don't I have a problem with that?

Because solo play means doing it ALL.

Solo play means that we are tank, healer, and damage dealer. We've got to be able to take hits and survive them. We've got to be able to heal ourself. And yes, we've got to be able to deal damage too. If we can't deal enough damage to kill stuff before it or the mechanics kill us...well, this isn't a group dungeon where we're protecting the DDs who are actually going to kill stuff. Its just us. We, solo, fulfill all three roles.

Healers don't heal vMA to death.

Tanks can't tank vMA to death.

DDs who can't tank hits when needed or heal themselves aren't going to DPS vMA to death because their glass cannon is gonna be shattered.

Solo content means doing it ALL. So I can't say I understand the objection that Tanks should get to tank their way through a solo arena. I mean, the first time I tried vMA on my tank, she was probably doing 6-8k DPS in her full tank gear. And you think I should've been able to complete the arena with that?

Personally, I figure that's rather low for an arena meant to challenge players to do it ALL, and so I can't say I'm surprised that I hit difficulties in the first arena.

I thought the game was "Play as you want". Are you suggesting that does not mean they want I choose to play can do anything in the game?

When the Devs have talked about it, "Play the way you like" generally means that classes will be viable, but not necessarily optimal in most roles. It doesn't mean that I can complete every piece of content in whatever build I can slap together.

Darrett wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

I confess I don't understand the objection that tanks can't "tank" solo arenas. Personal experience here - my main tank couldn't tank her way past the first arena in VMA the first time I tried it.

Why don't I have a problem with that?

Because solo play means doing it ALL.

Solo play means that we are tank, healer, and damage dealer. We've got to be able to take hits and survive them. We've got to be able to heal ourself. And yes, we've got to be able to deal damage too. If we can't deal enough damage to kill stuff before it or the mechanics kill us...well, this isn't a group dungeon where we're protecting the DDs who are actually going to kill stuff. Its just us. We, solo, fulfill all three roles.

Healers don't heal vMA to death.

Tanks can't tank vMA to death.

DDs who can't tank hits when needed or heal themselves aren't going to DPS vMA to death because their glass cannon is gonna be shattered.

Solo content means doing it ALL. So I can't say I understand the objection that Tanks should get to tank their way through a solo arena. I mean, the first time I tried vMA on my tank, she was probably doing 6-8k DPS in her full tank gear. And you think I should've been able to complete the arena with that?

Personally, I figure that's rather low for an arena meant to challenge players to do it ALL, and so I can't say I'm surprised that I hit difficulties in the first arena.

Tanks can tank arenas to death, though. Aside from Vateshran, there really aren’t any DPS checks. I’ve done VMA a lot on builds with extremely low DPS, you just won’t win any speed prizes.

Even for the Void Lich, you can cheese the only DPS check with Undo if you like.

So I also don’t understand the complaint, because you can do it. It isn’t as easy on a healer or tank setup, but there’s nothing preventing the clear.

It was a couple years since I last tried on my tank. It's not that I doubt you, it's just that I've seen several other tanks complain because their tank build wasn't able to complete vMA or Vateshran. And so a part of me thinks, "Well, doesn't it make sense that you should change your tank build until you can?"

But that's not been the answer they were looking for. They were hoping that ZOS would change the content so their current tank build could finish without being stymied by the DPS checks.

A search on Youtube would show you Xynode clearing VMA on a tank?

You know, I thought I just clarified that the complaints I've seen (and that I don't really understand) were from tanks who weren't able to complete the arena(s) on their tank build? drsalvation is saying stuff like "You CAN'T tank solo arenas like vateshran (any difficulty) or maelstrom (veteran)" on this thread.

I appreciate the Xynode mention inasmuch as it proves the point that tanks can and should do enough damage to complete the content and don't need arenas like vMA nerfed for them.

The other two fairly recent complaints I was thinking about when I wrote my post are here:

Complaint about Vateshran and Maelstrom: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/590111/why-do-people-and-this-game-itself-hate-tanks-so-much/p1

Complaint about Vateshran: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/558865/tank-at-vateshran-hollows/p1

In both of those, I'll note that my general opinion is the same as here: If your tank build can't complete the content because of a DPS check, then tweak it until you've got sufficient damage. I don't think it's sensible to ask ZOS to nerf arena mechanics for every single tank build.

spartaxoxo

I do think the one shot in VVH for not doing the ring should be eatable by a full support tank personally. It wouldn't make the rest of the arena any easier and would solve a lot of the problem that comes from this particular dps check being difficult mostly due to this game's poor targeting system.

Tannus15

I've cleared vMA on a tank.
If you're doing it right 20k dps on a tank in real content is very doable.

The key thing is to stop blocking all the time and run max stam & stam regen food.

I run front bar knight-errant with power slam as my main spammable and pierce armour as a debuff with VO on jewels and 2pc body, lord warden monster set. Backbar is infused crusher maelstrom bow.

Buffed i'm at 31k resists, 30k max health and have no dramas tanking all base game vet hm, and some of the vet dlc hm. This is not a trial ready build, but for most dungeons it's fine and my extra 20k dps can really help the group out.