Real tanks problems = (why no tanks in game) :

Succuby

Just think - you start the game.

You do no damage, have problems even with mobs in overland.

Your DPS is 4k.

You are buff bot for a groups with no damage and you even can not do effective damage.

Sets you use before now - work only on DD, so to play is just pain.

That is how tanks lives and plays.

Some one say - change gear to DD.

OK ! But if tank change gear to dd he see more interesting game play and than after some time he - DO NOT WANT PLAY TANK !

I start as a tank. Each member of our guild has tank

But when we need tank - who will go tank ? No one wants. Because game play ... #$_&-+ ... not really interesting to play.

No tanks = no tanks in random = fake tanks, because no tanks and people need to dayly.

If as a tank you get into party, if it has low dps and is not really good - you can do ... nothing. But DD can easely solo a lot of dunguans.

Tanks can not ! Sets tanks use before was remade. Now tanks can not do damage. It is not interesting to play = no tanks.

Return procs to tanks, give abilitys that let tank do normal damage.

DD can tank with frost stuffs, but tanks can not do normal DPS in block with sword and shield.

Make it possible, add sets, return old sets, give skils to let tanks do normal damage.

With out it - it will not be interesting to play tanks.

If something is not interesting = no one play it, so no tanks !

Simple logick, simple truth.

Good DD can do 50-60+ k dps on 3 kk dummy.

If it would be possible for tank do 30-35-40k dps on 3 kk dummy whyle in block (may be casting damage skill in exchange of HP) it would not be game braking !

Tanks can do up to 15 k dps passivly before, now tanks can not and are limited by sets. Tanks can only bash now to get some dps, but it cost a lot of resources.

It will not be a lot of tanks if its game play is ... like it is now.

I think a lot of people will play tanks if they can do damage whyle tanking, because now tanks fill itself helpless at all in bad groups ! It is not what tanks want !

BlueRaven

Yup.

I made a similar post in September;

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/7390607#Comment_7390607

“ healers fun to play, and that includes being fun when NOT in a group environment.

But hey, let’s keep nerfing their damage so it takes forever to burn down a regular overland mob, then collectively scratch our heads wondering why no one plays them.”

••••

And yes I am aware of the new armory system and it’s not really going to help too much, if at all.

Succuby

BlueRaven wrote: »

Yup.

I made a similar post in September;

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/7390607#Comment_7390607

“ healers fun to play, and that includes being fun when NOT in a group environment.

But hey, let’s keep nerfing their damage so it takes forever to burn down a regular overland mob, then collectively scratch our heads wondering why no one plays them.”

••••

And yes I am aware of the new armory system and it’s not really going to help too much, if at all.

I like armory, but it will not really help with no tanks. It is boring and painfull gameplay of full helpness. Even if oeople do tank and run 2-3 times, they will go as DD on 4 th run

thorwyn

A tank dealing 45k on a 3m dummy while blocking would NOT be game breaking???

NerfSeige

thorwyn wrote: »

A tank dealing 45k on a 3m dummy while blocking would NOT be game breaking???

Lmao, yeah.

I feel that these people that says tank is not fun to play probably have not done really hard content and jesus, overland is so easy you can do it tank gear, heck if you want to do damage use proc sets that scale with resists and health.

Like, who even queue for PUGs wearing full tank gear, at least wear one damage set like crimson or do a medium tank with 2H and stuff, learn to play lmao

Succuby

thorwyn wrote: »

A tank dealing 45k on a 3m dummy while blocking would NOT be game breaking???

45 without blocking, 30-35 in block would not.
(For good tank like 50-60k is normal for good DD)

In a lot of games tanks work in this standarts:

https://youtu.be/NyjHlU0Xamo

https://youtu.be/xIw47q16ZrM

It both are tanks and look on its damage output.

It can be good alternate to buff bots tank gameplay people wants from tank.

ixthUA

With armory system i created a DD build for overland and my DPS went from 15k to 25k.
Companions and armory definitely made playing tanks and healers enjoyable.

Succuby

ixthUA wrote: »

With armory system i created a DD build for overland and my DPS went from 15k to 25k.
Companions and armory definitely made playing tanks and healers enjoyable.

In overland yes companion is must have for tank. But random dunguans is next tanks pain. And tank is needed for dunguans and trials to start with. All other content is more simple to play as dd to start with.

Succuby

NerfSeige wrote: »

thorwyn wrote: »

A tank dealing 45k on a 3m dummy while blocking would NOT be game breaking???

Lmao, yeah.

I feel that these people that says tank is not fun to play probably have not done really hard content and jesus, overland is so easy you can do it tank gear, heck if you want to do damage use proc sets that scale with resists and health.

Like, who even queue for PUGs wearing full tank gear, at least wear one damage set like crimson or do a medium tank with 2H and stuff, learn to play lmao

https://youtu.be/zgRZiNbflxI

I close 3 in 1 on tank 2-3 years ago, so you can say without lmao to me

And as example Archer random run:
https://youtu.be/6qKPqSwrF4k

What is more fun ?

DD is much more fun.

adyreonb14_ESO

Outside of a few instances in game (like when doing dark brotherhood quests), I run around in "tank" gear all the time; doing overland quests, public dungeons, delves, world bosses, etc. I run with all heavy armor, 1 bar sword/board for tanking, and 1 bar for dps; sometimes staff, two-handed, dual wield, etc. depending on what I feel like for the day.

I have no issues killing most of the mobs quickly (outside of world bosses - that do take some time).

I rarely block or roll dodge, and just dps away, so I rarely use the sword/board except when dealing with a DLC world boss, or event (such as dragons, wandering world bosses, or in a 4 man dungeon), in which case I taunt/block with sword/board, and then switch to my dps bar in between those big hits.

I am a casual player, but rarely die (even when carrying a group in a 4-man dungeon).

For those playing as tank, I recommend playing in all heavy gear, having a dps bar, and a tank bar. Keep self-heals and tanking skills on one bar, and go all out dps on the other. Get used to knowing when to switch to block the big hits, keep your self-heal up, and then just dps away to have fun.

thorwyn

This is not a lot of games, this is ESO. What's possile in other games is completely irrelevant. We need to make THIS game work.

As a general rule of thumb, a DPS output of 35k on a 3m dummy roughly translates to 60-70k when fully buffed. So a trial group consisting of 10 blocking "tanks" and 2 healers would reliably generate round about 500k to 600k DPS... in tank gear and while blocking. You can easily do the math and see where that would lead to in veteran trials.

A tank is a role in a group. It has a purpose and the purpose is not deal damage. The purpose is to tank! That's your job. If that's too boring for you, you are either not playing the right content, or tank is not your cup of tea.

Succuby

I love sword and board, i love 2 handed sword.

But this game do not give me option i like in other games with it unfortunatly.

I really try, but for now tanks is not interesting by gameplay, i hope it will change some day. It already change but for DD - it tanks quite good. Mày be 1 day tanks start DPS too.

Gundug

Tanking and healing are the most important roles by far in hard group content. They are what make it possible for the DPS to do their job. I’m not explicitly against a tank that can do 30k DPS in block, although that would make it possible to easily solo a great majority of content in the game with nearly no risk of being killed. Four tank hard mode DLC dungeons would be a good choice for trifecta runs.

Just keep your tank setup for hard stuff, and make a DPS setup for everything else. There’s no excuse to complain about this with the armory in the game now.

Succuby

Gundug wrote: »

Tanking and healing are the most important roles by far in hard group content. I’m not explicitly against a tank that can do 30k DPS in block, although that would make it possible to easily solo a great majority of content in the game with nearly no risk of being killed. Four tank hard mode DLC dungeons would be a good choice for trifecta runs.

As a 4 healers and 4 dds

I am against role system i like when all 3 was possible to take - like it was before.

Peoole say what 3 roles - a noob ?

And i say "hmmm what randoms gives us today", and do work of role that was needed

It is much more interesting gameplay. Real random run Not like today.

Xebov

Succuby wrote: »

But when we need tank - who will go tank ? No one wants. Because game play ... #$_&-+ ... not really interesting to play.

That has nothing to do with gameplay but with responsibilty. If i play hard content as a tank and die you likely get a group wipe. If you die as DD its often recoverable and noone wants to have this resposibility.

VaranisArano

Ironically, I quite like playing my tank in overland content because it means I'm not slaughtering mobs and bosses in a handful of seconds.

Like, Varanis fought the final boss of Blackwood a couple weeks ago, and I actually got to enjoy how the fight mechanics ramp up in each phase!

Grandchamp1989

Well, nobody wants to play a tank in ESO.
I think it would be worthwhile for Zos to investigate why many people don't find the experience rewarding..

etchedpixels

It depends how you build your tank. If you simply copy 'generic allegeedly unkillable end game dk trial tank number 1' from streamer of the week then chances are it'll totally suck at dps because it was min/maxed by the streamer for vet trial content and one job.

If you are not going to tank hard veteran dlc content or trials then you don't need to build like that in the first place. Medusa/mother's sorrow on a templar with almost everything in magicka works just fine so long as you do the tanking with some of the medusa on the body and know how to a) block b) heal and c) spam shields or heals when needed. Also take a look at PvP buillds. In the PvP space you need to be able to take it and dish it out so the builds are often much better for multiple roles.

Likewise you can tank most non endgame content on a dd build simply by wearing plague doctor and slotting a taunt and you can heal pretty much all of th enormal dungeon content by just slotting some restro skills and wearing winter's respite.

Succuby

Xebov wrote: »

Succuby wrote: »

But when we need tank - who will go tank ? No one wants. Because game play ... #$_&-+ ... not really interesting to play.

That has nothing to do with gameplay but with responsibilty. If i play hard content as a tank and die you likely get a group wipe. If you die as DD its often recoverable and noone wants to have this resposibility.

Yes thats why tank need have option do dps with out droping the block.

Raideen

I can't say how unique my perspective is, but tanking to me has always meant "an unstoppable juggernaut" like my Black Orc in Warhammer Online or tanking with my Turtle or my Clefthoof pet in wow, or a giant shoulder fat looking tauren paladin. I like my tanks to look the part as much as they act the part.

ESO in my mind has aways had one race...bog standard human. Everyone is pretty much the same and even the tallest high elf or Nord with settings jacked to max for chest size, arm size etc, they are still "small" compared to the size difference between a human in warhammer online and a black orc.

Tanks in ESO just look wimpy. If we had some beefier armor, something that made us look stout, tough, impenetrable, I might be more inclined to play a tank. My primary complaint are the arms and legs.

But, it is what it is, those things I mentioned do not take place in the Elder Scrolls lore and the games design does not really facilitate chances in this direction. Bosses are often the same size or slightly larger than the player making it hard to see the boss (heck I cant even see their animation to block sometimes due to spell effects if the boss is smaller) so any form of larger, beefier, more burly tank most likely would not work as the rest of the group might not be able to see the boss if the tank was larger than they are now.

This illustration showcases how I wish I could make my tanks look. Beefy, thick, and unstoppable.

BXR_Lonestar

I started life as a healer, so I knew that leveling up a tank was going to be hard work. That is why both my tanks started off as DPS characters, and I converted them to tanks when I felt I had enough skill points unlocked.

But the reason there are no tanks in the game is that tanking is the hardest position to play in organized PVE. You can't simply read a guide, farm up the gear, and suddenly be a good tank. You need to know how to read mechanics, boss tells, AOE's on the floor (which hits can be absorbed, which hits are instant death, etc.) and the only way you learn that is by having experience playing as a tank. And in those same situations, the group is depending on you for survivability, meaning, if you suck or if your struggling, the entire group will feel it, and nothing can really cover that up for you, so there is definitely a lot of pressure on the tank.

Additionally, boss fight mechanics, minions, etc. cause chaos which the tank is usually charged with curbing (by chaining/rooting/taunting minions), so a tank really needs to be able to manage chaos.

The demands on the other roles pale in comparison IMO. Healer just has to heal and maintain uptime on buffs/debuffs which is easy once you've gotten into the rythem of doing so. DPS? Once you've mastered your rotation and mastered "don't stand in stupid", your set.

That is why there's so few tanks, IMO. Not the difficulty in leveling them, but the pressure that is actually placed on the tank. Its why real (good!) tanks are rockstars!

etchedpixels

Succuby wrote: »

Xebov wrote: »

Succuby wrote: »

But when we need tank - who will go tank ? No one wants. Because game play ... #$_&-+ ... not really interesting to play.

That has nothing to do with gameplay but with responsibilty. If i play hard content as a tank and die you likely get a group wipe. If you die as DD its often recoverable and noone wants to have this resposibility.

Yes thats why tank need have option do dps with out droping the block.

Firstly there are lots of spammables you can combine with block. Templar jabs being a notable exception. There are lots of non channelled skills in the game. Secondly you don't need to hold block in most content, just block the right heavy attacks. In fact you'll tend to run into sustain problems if you just hold block.

Templar tanking a normal dungeon boss for example is usually something like sun shield, vampires bane, jabbity jab, block on the yellow heavy attack telegraph, rinse repeat and even if you get it a bit wrong or a lag spike you'll get slapped back a short way and have to stand up whilst protected by your shields. For the trash you just dd but with a few more heavy attacks and the heavy armour passives to get resource back.

alcoraptor

Tanking is a specific role designed for a specific job - stopping the DDs and healer(s) getting killed and helping them do their jobs more effectively.
If you're doing overland content, you don't need a tank and you shouldn't build yourself as one.

As others have said, if you find that you don't want to go back to tanking after being a DD then I suspect that tanking is not for you rather than it being a problem with the architecture of ESO.
Personally, I really enjoy tanking vet dungeons and trials - it's a great challenge that comes with great risks; you literally control the battlefield. If you screw up, you wipe the group.

I never expect that my tank, in its full vet trial tanking gear, would be suitable for overland content - if I want to do overland or something that doesn't need a tank, I can:
- Switch to a different toon
- Respec my skills / sets (even easier now with the armoury station / merchant)

Allowing a tank to deal 30k dps while holding a boss would be game breaking IMO - everyone would build unkillable block tanks, and healers and DDs would become moot. Everyone will get clears in vet dungeons and trials, and any challenge from the game would be gone.

Opting to be a DPS and do 70k DPS comes with the tradeoff that you're squishy, and need a tank to take the agro while you do your role.

Xebov

Succuby wrote: »

Xebov wrote: »

Succuby wrote: »

But when we need tank - who will go tank ? No one wants. Because game play ... #$_&-+ ... not really interesting to play.

That has nothing to do with gameplay but with responsibilty. If i play hard content as a tank and die you likely get a group wipe. If you die as DD its often recoverable and noone wants to have this resposibility.

Yes thats why tank need have option do dps with out droping the block.

That makes no sense. Having dps options does not change the resposibility at all. Also you dont have to block all the time. Additionally dps is what i have 2 DDs for. Why should i take over their role as well?

Larcomar

I never quite get the issue. I mean, I have 8 characters. They all carry sets for dps, pvp and tanking. Granted, for serious end game content, you might need to shift your cp around a bit to min max for diff roles, but it's pretty easy to get enough to have spare slottables now. On PC its one button to change loadout, two if you want switch cps out. Ok on console, its going to be a bit more hassle to swap load outs, but it doesnt take that long to equip 5 bits of med armor.

Edit - it sounds like you may want to do damage while tanking. I just don't think that's the tanks jobs in harder content. In easier though, it's pretty easy to build a hybrid. And certainyl advisable for rnds etc. Try a dps heavy armor set like ravager or medusa, or even something simple like heavy hundings + a 2h bar (for trash) + a snb back bar (for bosses).

redspecter23

I have tanks. I don't tank in pugs. I will happily tank for groups that I know have capable dps and the ability to complete content at a reasonable pace. I do spend plenty of time helping new players, but when I do want to go complete a dungeon at a pace I feel comfortable with and without holding any hands, I don't even consider the queue as an option.

Some people like that random element and from time to time, I do queue to fill in a 4th member in an already premade group. I'm probably a bit jaded 7 years into the game, but I can't ever see the dungeon finder as a primary method of completing content efficiently. That's why I don't bother tanking there.

Vevvev

All these issues listed above feel like a tank that doesn't have a DPS set to change into. I always carry my high damage PvP sets and healer sets in my inventory, but when I go out tanking I pull my tanking stuff from the bank. You build for the content you're going into and with the armory system here tanks have access to a free way to flip from their tank to a solo/DPS in the click of a button.

El_Borracho

Agree that DD is typically more fun but there are days I just want to tank, even in pugs. Yes it can be frustrating, but that's why there is the ability to quit and leave the group. Like @redspecter23 said, I don't expect to clear vet content efficiently in group finder, so I don't use it for DD or tanking. That's what guilds and friends are for.

I completely disagree that they should change the game to make it so tanks can do 45K DPS while tanking, in tank gear, with a tank setup. Sounds more like someone who wants to be a DD but not die. Go play Skyrim if you want that.

Galaen_Frost

I run both tanks and dps in other trinity style MMOs and I just can't seem to pick up the interest in being a tank in this game. The solo gameplay is bad and group gameplay has always been like herding cats no matter the game.

Vaoh

It’s a tank though lol. Damage dealers do not have even remotely close to the kind of survivability as tanks.

I hope we never reach a point where a group comp of 11 tanks/1 healer push out enough dps for Godslayer.

Franchise408

alcoraptor wrote: »

Tanking is a specific role designed for a specific job - stopping the DDs and healer(s) getting killed and helping them do their jobs more effectively.
If you're doing overland content, you don't need a tank and you shouldn't build yourself as one.

As others have said, if you find that you don't want to go back to tanking after being a DD then I suspect that tanking is not for you rather than it being a problem with the architecture of ESO.
Personally, I really enjoy tanking vet dungeons and trials - it's a great challenge that comes with great risks; you literally control the battlefield. If you screw up, you wipe the group.

I never expect that my tank, in its full vet trial tanking gear, would be suitable for overland content - if I want to do overland or something that doesn't need a tank, I can:
- Switch to a different toon
- Respec my skills / sets (even easier now with the armoury station / merchant)

Allowing a tank to deal 30k dps while holding a boss would be game breaking IMO - everyone would build unkillable block tanks, and healers and DDs would become moot. Everyone will get clears in vet dungeons and trials, and any challenge from the game would be gone.

Opting to be a DPS and do 70k DPS comes with the tradeoff that you're squishy, and need a tank to take the agro while you do your role.

This misses the point. Why should someone *not* be able to have an enjoyable experience with overland playing as a tank? Why should DD builds be the only ones that can effectively overland? They are a role for a group as well, why are they the only ones that also get to solo?

It's not a matter of not wanting the responsibility - I actually prefer tanking and it is my favorite role to play in the game.

But it is a shame that any sort of questing or overland is isolated to my DD builds, meaning that a majority of my characters can't participate in anything other than group content.