Franchise408 wrote: »alcoraptor wrote: »Tanking is a specific role designed for a specific job - stopping the DDs and healer(s) getting killed and helping them do their jobs more effectively.
If you're doing overland content, you don't need a tank and you shouldn't build yourself as one.
As others have said, if you find that you don't want to go back to tanking after being a DD then I suspect that tanking is not for you rather than it being a problem with the architecture of ESO.
Personally, I really enjoy tanking vet dungeons and trials - it's a great challenge that comes with great risks; you literally control the battlefield. If you screw up, you wipe the group.
I never expect that my tank, in its full vet trial tanking gear, would be suitable for overland content - if I want to do overland or something that doesn't need a tank, I can:
- Switch to a different toon
- Respec my skills / sets (even easier now with the armoury station / merchant)
Allowing a tank to deal 30k dps while holding a boss would be game breaking IMO - everyone would build unkillable block tanks, and healers and DDs would become moot. Everyone will get clears in vet dungeons and trials, and any challenge from the game would be gone.
Opting to be a DPS and do 70k DPS comes with the tradeoff that you're squishy, and need a tank to take the agro while you do your role.
This misses the point. Why should someone *not* be able to have an enjoyable experience with overland playing as a tank? Why should DD builds be the only ones that can effectively overland? They are a role for a group as well, why are they the only ones that also get to solo?
It's not a matter of not wanting the responsibility - I actually prefer tanking and it is my favorite role to play in the game.
But it is a shame that any sort of questing or overland is isolated to my DD builds, meaning that a majority of my characters can't participate in anything other than group content.
Franchise408 wrote: »alcoraptor wrote: »Tanking is a specific role designed for a specific job - stopping the DDs and healer(s) getting killed and helping them do their jobs more effectively.
If you're doing overland content, you don't need a tank and you shouldn't build yourself as one.
As others have said, if you find that you don't want to go back to tanking after being a DD then I suspect that tanking is not for you rather than it being a problem with the architecture of ESO.
Personally, I really enjoy tanking vet dungeons and trials - it's a great challenge that comes with great risks; you literally control the battlefield. If you screw up, you wipe the group.
I never expect that my tank, in its full vet trial tanking gear, would be suitable for overland content - if I want to do overland or something that doesn't need a tank, I can:
- Switch to a different toon
- Respec my skills / sets (even easier now with the armoury station / merchant)
Allowing a tank to deal 30k dps while holding a boss would be game breaking IMO - everyone would build unkillable block tanks, and healers and DDs would become moot. Everyone will get clears in vet dungeons and trials, and any challenge from the game would be gone.
Opting to be a DPS and do 70k DPS comes with the tradeoff that you're squishy, and need a tank to take the agro while you do your role.
This misses the point. Why should someone *not* be able to have an enjoyable experience with overland playing as a tank? Why should DD builds be the only ones that can effectively overland? They are a role for a group as well, why are they the only ones that also get to solo?
It's not a matter of not wanting the responsibility - I actually prefer tanking and it is my favorite role to play in the game.
But it is a shame that any sort of questing or overland is isolated to my DD builds, meaning that a majority of my characters can't participate in anything other than group content.
The tanks in Final Fantasy XIV are damage dealers. js
alcoraptor wrote: »Franchise408 wrote: »alcoraptor wrote: »Tanking is a specific role designed for a specific job - stopping the DDs and healer(s) getting killed and helping them do their jobs more effectively.
If you're doing overland content, you don't need a tank and you shouldn't build yourself as one.
As others have said, if you find that you don't want to go back to tanking after being a DD then I suspect that tanking is not for you rather than it being a problem with the architecture of ESO.
Personally, I really enjoy tanking vet dungeons and trials - it's a great challenge that comes with great risks; you literally control the battlefield. If you screw up, you wipe the group.
I never expect that my tank, in its full vet trial tanking gear, would be suitable for overland content - if I want to do overland or something that doesn't need a tank, I can:
- Switch to a different toon
- Respec my skills / sets (even easier now with the armoury station / merchant)
Allowing a tank to deal 30k dps while holding a boss would be game breaking IMO - everyone would build unkillable block tanks, and healers and DDs would become moot. Everyone will get clears in vet dungeons and trials, and any challenge from the game would be gone.
Opting to be a DPS and do 70k DPS comes with the tradeoff that you're squishy, and need a tank to take the agro while you do your role.
This misses the point. Why should someone *not* be able to have an enjoyable experience with overland playing as a tank? Why should DD builds be the only ones that can effectively overland? They are a role for a group as well, why are they the only ones that also get to solo?
It's not a matter of not wanting the responsibility - I actually prefer tanking and it is my favorite role to play in the game.
But it is a shame that any sort of questing or overland is isolated to my DD builds, meaning that a majority of my characters can't participate in anything other than group content.
What are you expecting to be able to do as a tank for overland mobs or quests? They're specifically centered around killing things. A tank's role is, by design, to aid the DPS in killing things rather than actually killing them.
No-one is saying that you *can't* play overland as a tank. You can, of course, leave your full trial setup on and group up and taunt the boss while your group mates DPS it. You can even slowly pierce armour / shield bash that world boss to death if really you want to.
But expecting a character that's role is set up specifically not to do damage to be able do damage is, frankly, odd - particularly given that you now have multiple options to switch it out to DPS at the click of a button.
Just think - you start the game.
You do no damage, have problems even with mobs in overland.
Your DPS is 4k.
You are buff bot for a groups with no damage and you even can not do effective damage.
Sets you use before now - work only on DD, so to play is just pain.
That is how tanks lives and plays.
Some one say - change gear to DD.
OK ! But if tank change gear to dd he see more interesting game play and than after some time he - DO NOT WANT PLAY TANK !
I start as a tank. Each member of our guild has tank
But when we need tank - who will go tank ? No one wants. Because game play ... #$_&-+ ... not really interesting to play.
No tanks = no tanks in random = fake tanks, because no tanks and people need to dayly.
If as a tank you get into party, if it has low dps and is not really good - you can do ... nothing. But DD can easely solo a lot of dunguans.
Tanks can not ! Sets tanks use before was remade. Now tanks can not do damage. It is not interesting to play = no tanks.
Return procs to tanks, give abilitys that let tank do normal damage.
DD can tank with frost stuffs, but tanks can not do normal DPS in block with sword and shield.
Make it possible, add sets, return old sets, give skils to let tanks do normal damage.
With out it - it will not be interesting to play tanks.
If something is not interesting = no one play it, so no tanks !
Simple logick, simple truth.
Good DD can do 50-60+ k dps on 3 kk dummy.
If it would be possible for tank do 30-35-40k dps on 3 kk dummy whyle in block (may be casting damage skill in exchange of HP) it would not be game braking !
Tanks can do up to 15 k dps passivly before, now tanks can not and are limited by sets. Tanks can only bash now to get some dps, but it cost a lot of resources.
It will not be a lot of tanks if its game play is ... like it is now.
I think a lot of people will play tanks if they can do damage whyle tanking, because now tanks fill itself helpless at all in bad groups ! It is not what tanks want !
Just think - you start the game.
You do no damage, have problems even with mobs in overland.
Your DPS is 4k.
You are buff bot for a groups with no damage and you even can not do effective damage.
Sets you use before now - work only on DD, so to play is just pain.
That is how tanks lives and plays.
Some one say - change gear to DD.
OK ! But if tank change gear to dd he see more interesting game play and than after some time he - DO NOT WANT PLAY TANK !
I start as a tank. Each member of our guild has tank
But when we need tank - who will go tank ? No one wants. Because game play ... #$_&-+ ... not really interesting to play.
No tanks = no tanks in random = fake tanks, because no tanks and people need to dayly.
If as a tank you get into party, if it has low dps and is not really good - you can do ... nothing. But DD can easely solo a lot of dunguans.
Tanks can not ! Sets tanks use before was remade. Now tanks can not do damage. It is not interesting to play = no tanks.
Return procs to tanks, give abilitys that let tank do normal damage.
DD can tank with frost stuffs, but tanks can not do normal DPS in block with sword and shield.
Make it possible, add sets, return old sets, give skils to let tanks do normal damage.
With out it - it will not be interesting to play tanks.
If something is not interesting = no one play it, so no tanks !
Simple logick, simple truth.
Good DD can do 50-60+ k dps on 3 kk dummy.
If it would be possible for tank do 30-35-40k dps on 3 kk dummy whyle in block (may be casting damage skill in exchange of HP) it would not be game braking !
Tanks can do up to 15 k dps passivly before, now tanks can not and are limited by sets. Tanks can only bash now to get some dps, but it cost a lot of resources.
It will not be a lot of tanks if its game play is ... like it is now.
I think a lot of people will play tanks if they can do damage whyle tanking, because now tanks fill itself helpless at all in bad groups ! It is not what tanks want !
Just think - you start the game.
You do no damage, have problems even with mobs in overland.
Your DPS is 4k.
You are buff bot for a groups with no damage and you even can not do effective damage.
Sets you use before now - work only on DD, so to play is just pain.
That is how tanks lives and plays.
Some one say - change gear to DD.
OK ! But if tank change gear to dd he see more interesting game play and than after some time he - DO NOT WANT PLAY TANK !
I start as a tank. Each member of our guild has tank
But when we need tank - who will go tank ? No one wants. Because game play ... #$_&-+ ... not really interesting to play.
No tanks = no tanks in random = fake tanks, because no tanks and people need to dayly.
If as a tank you get into party, if it has low dps and is not really good - you can do ... nothing. But DD can easely solo a lot of dunguans.
Tanks can not ! Sets tanks use before was remade. Now tanks can not do damage. It is not interesting to play = no tanks.
Return procs to tanks, give abilitys that let tank do normal damage.
DD can tank with frost stuffs, but tanks can not do normal DPS in block with sword and shield.
Make it possible, add sets, return old sets, give skils to let tanks do normal damage.
With out it - it will not be interesting to play tanks.
If something is not interesting = no one play it, so no tanks !
Simple logick, simple truth.
Good DD can do 50-60+ k dps on 3 kk dummy.
If it would be possible for tank do 30-35-40k dps on 3 kk dummy whyle in block (may be casting damage skill in exchange of HP) it would not be game braking !
Tanks can do up to 15 k dps passivly before, now tanks can not and are limited by sets. Tanks can only bash now to get some dps, but it cost a lot of resources.
It will not be a lot of tanks if its game play is ... like it is now.
I think a lot of people will play tanks if they can do damage whyle tanking, because now tanks fill itself helpless at all in bad groups ! It is not what tanks want !
Franchise408 wrote: »alcoraptor wrote: »Tanking is a specific role designed for a specific job - stopping the DDs and healer(s) getting killed and helping them do their jobs more effectively.
If you're doing overland content, you don't need a tank and you shouldn't build yourself as one.
As others have said, if you find that you don't want to go back to tanking after being a DD then I suspect that tanking is not for you rather than it being a problem with the architecture of ESO.
Personally, I really enjoy tanking vet dungeons and trials - it's a great challenge that comes with great risks; you literally control the battlefield. If you screw up, you wipe the group.
I never expect that my tank, in its full vet trial tanking gear, would be suitable for overland content - if I want to do overland or something that doesn't need a tank, I can:
- Switch to a different toon
- Respec my skills / sets (even easier now with the armoury station / merchant)
Allowing a tank to deal 30k dps while holding a boss would be game breaking IMO - everyone would build unkillable block tanks, and healers and DDs would become moot. Everyone will get clears in vet dungeons and trials, and any challenge from the game would be gone.
Opting to be a DPS and do 70k DPS comes with the tradeoff that you're squishy, and need a tank to take the agro while you do your role.
This misses the point. Why should someone *not* be able to have an enjoyable experience with overland playing as a tank? Why should DD builds be the only ones that can effectively overland? They are a role for a group as well, why are they the only ones that also get to solo?
It's not a matter of not wanting the responsibility - I actually prefer tanking and it is my favorite role to play in the game.
But it is a shame that any sort of questing or overland is isolated to my DD builds, meaning that a majority of my characters can't participate in anything other than group content.
FrancisCrawford wrote: »Franchise408 wrote: »alcoraptor wrote: »Tanking is a specific role designed for a specific job - stopping the DDs and healer(s) getting killed and helping them do their jobs more effectively.
If you're doing overland content, you don't need a tank and you shouldn't build yourself as one.
As others have said, if you find that you don't want to go back to tanking after being a DD then I suspect that tanking is not for you rather than it being a problem with the architecture of ESO.
Personally, I really enjoy tanking vet dungeons and trials - it's a great challenge that comes with great risks; you literally control the battlefield. If you screw up, you wipe the group.
I never expect that my tank, in its full vet trial tanking gear, would be suitable for overland content - if I want to do overland or something that doesn't need a tank, I can:
- Switch to a different toon
- Respec my skills / sets (even easier now with the armoury station / merchant)
Allowing a tank to deal 30k dps while holding a boss would be game breaking IMO - everyone would build unkillable block tanks, and healers and DDs would become moot. Everyone will get clears in vet dungeons and trials, and any challenge from the game would be gone.
Opting to be a DPS and do 70k DPS comes with the tradeoff that you're squishy, and need a tank to take the agro while you do your role.
This misses the point. Why should someone *not* be able to have an enjoyable experience with overland playing as a tank? Why should DD builds be the only ones that can effectively overland? They are a role for a group as well, why are they the only ones that also get to solo?
It's not a matter of not wanting the responsibility - I actually prefer tanking and it is my favorite role to play in the game.
But it is a shame that any sort of questing or overland is isolated to my DD builds, meaning that a majority of my characters can't participate in anything other than group content.
My dungeon healer builds are almost as overpowered for overland play as my straight damage builds are.
Just think - you start the game.
You do no damage, have problems even with mobs in overland.
Your DPS is 4k.
You are buff bot for a groups with no damage and you even can not do effective damage.
Sets you use before now - work only on DD, so to play is just pain.
That is how tanks lives and plays.
Some one say - change gear to DD.
OK ! But if tank change gear to dd he see more interesting game play and than after some time he - DO NOT WANT PLAY TANK !
I start as a tank. Each member of our guild has tank
But when we need tank - who will go tank ? No one wants. Because game play ... #$_&-+ ... not really interesting to play.
No tanks = no tanks in random = fake tanks, because no tanks and people need to dayly.
If as a tank you get into party, if it has low dps and is not really good - you can do ... nothing. But DD can easely solo a lot of dunguans.
Tanks can not ! Sets tanks use before was remade. Now tanks can not do damage. It is not interesting to play = no tanks.
Return procs to tanks, give abilitys that let tank do normal damage.
DD can tank with frost stuffs, but tanks can not do normal DPS in block with sword and shield.
Make it possible, add sets, return old sets, give skils to let tanks do normal damage.
With out it - it will not be interesting to play tanks.
If something is not interesting = no one play it, so no tanks !
Simple logick, simple truth.
Good DD can do 50-60+ k dps on 3 kk dummy.
If it would be possible for tank do 30-35-40k dps on 3 kk dummy whyle in block (may be casting damage skill in exchange of HP) it would not be game braking !
Tanks can do up to 15 k dps passivly before, now tanks can not and are limited by sets. Tanks can only bash now to get some dps, but it cost a lot of resources.
It will not be a lot of tanks if its game play is ... like it is now.
I think a lot of people will play tanks if they can do damage whyle tanking, because now tanks fill itself helpless at all in bad groups ! It is not what tanks want !
I agree with you that the gameplay for tanks on this game needs some serious work. But for different reasons. Because anyone with a decent rotation is going to obliterate overland mobs on this game. And that includes tanks. So I've never been able to relate to the argument that tanks can't do overland content on this game because I've never have any problems. World Bosses can take awhile to kill. But that's about it.
My main issue with tanking is essential actions like blocking are often obscured by effects or giant summons sitting right in your face so you can't see. Blocking also lags sometimes. Blocking generally is just poorly implemented on this game and needs a major overhaul. I've suggested giving them an ability that allows them to preemptively block heavy hitters. But the suggestion was widely mocked. So who knows, maybe tanks on this game enjoy being flattened by moves they can barely (if at all) see. That or they just us add ons that warn them when to block and then pretend it's a L2P issue when they are proof themselves that it isn't. But I digress.
The lack of an area taunt is also an issue, especially on certain fights, and can make playing as a tank absolutely miserable. So that doesn't help either.
I agree that especially deadroth standing right in front of the mob prevent you from seing animation telegraphs and are therefore annoying. Though usually most abilities in normal/vet dungeons don't kill you instantly when you not block them. In raids those sets are luckily not that present.My main issue with tanking is essential actions like blocking are often obscured by effects or giant summons sitting right in your face so you can't see. Blocking also lags sometimes. Blocking generally is just poorly implemented on this game and needs a major overhaul. I've suggested giving them an ability that allows them to preemptively block heavy hitters. But the suggestion was widely mocked. So who knows, maybe tanks on this game enjoy being flattened by moves they can barely (if at all) see. That or they just us add ons that warn them when to block and then pretend it's a L2P issue when they are proof themselves that it isn't. But I digress.
As mentioned in an other thread I don't think AE taunts are necessary. They just foster a slopy playstyle and drag away some of the situation awareness a tank should have. Sure, it might be appealing for new tanks and esecially make some of the early dungeons you get into while leveling up a tank easier to tank, especially on classes that do not have that CC arsenal others have, but it also teaches tanks rather early on that not every mob needs or should be tanked and that tanks need to select their targets respectively for obvious reasons. That decision process gets easier with experience and knowledge, but also, I have rarely seen people blaming tanks that want to tank but lack experience.The lack of an area taunt is also an issue, especially on certain fights, and can make playing as a tank absolutely miserable. So that doesn't help either.
This is not a lot of games, this is ESO. What's possile in other games is completely irrelevant. We need to make THIS game work.
As a general rule of thumb, a DPS output of 35k on a 3m dummy roughly translates to 60-70k when fully buffed. So a trial group consisting of 10 blocking "tanks" and 2 healers would reliably generate round about 500k to 600k DPS... in tank gear and while blocking. You can easily do the math and see where that would lead to in veteran trials.
A tank is a role in a group. It has a purpose and the purpose is not deal damage. The purpose is to tank! That's your job. If that's too boring for you, you are either not playing the right content, or tank is not your cup of tea.
I agree that especially deadroth standing right in front of the mob prevent you from seing animation telegraphs and are therefore annoying. Though usually most abilities in normal/vet dungeons don't kill you instantly when you not block them. In raids those sets are luckily not that present.My main issue with tanking is essential actions like blocking are often obscured by effects or giant summons sitting right in your face so you can't see. Blocking also lags sometimes. Blocking generally is just poorly implemented on this game and needs a major overhaul. I've suggested giving them an ability that allows them to preemptively block heavy hitters. But the suggestion was widely mocked. So who knows, maybe tanks on this game enjoy being flattened by moves they can barely (if at all) see. That or they just us add ons that warn them when to block and then pretend it's a L2P issue when they are proof themselves that it isn't. But I digress.
But in the same topic, I'd really love to know who had the glorious idea to make the four copies you had to face-block during the Pinnacle Factotum encounter in Halls of Fabrication (vHOF) almost transparent and considered that fun. Especially as the few magica classes back then played with lightning staffs their wall of elements and eventually the staff ultimate all had the same color as the copies and therefore mad it almost impossible to really say with confidence which of the four copies is going to do the blow. To this day I sometimes dream of tanking those and I more or less stopped raiding 2 1/2 years ago ...As mentioned in an other thread I don't think AE taunts are necessary. They just foster a slopy playstyle and drag away some of the situation awareness a tank should have. Sure, it might be appealing for new tanks and esecially make some of the early dungeons you get into while leveling up a tank easier to tank, especially on classes that do not have that CC arsenal others have, but it also teaches tanks rather early on that not every mob needs or should be tanked and that tanks need to select their targets respectively for obvious reasons. That decision process gets easier with experience and knowledge, but also, I have rarely seen people blaming tanks that want to tank but lack experience.The lack of an area taunt is also an issue, especially on certain fights, and can make playing as a tank absolutely miserable. So that doesn't help either.
This is not a lot of games, this is ESO. What's possile in other games is completely irrelevant. We need to make THIS game work.
As a general rule of thumb, a DPS output of 35k on a 3m dummy roughly translates to 60-70k when fully buffed. So a trial group consisting of 10 blocking "tanks" and 2 healers would reliably generate round about 500k to 600k DPS... in tank gear and while blocking. You can easily do the math and see where that would lead to in veteran trials.
A tank is a role in a group. It has a purpose and the purpose is not deal damage. The purpose is to tank! That's your job. If that's too boring for you, you are either not playing the right content, or tank is not your cup of tea.
Exactly why ESO needs the change lol 😂
Franchise408 wrote: »alcoraptor wrote: »Tanking is a specific role designed for a specific job - stopping the DDs and healer(s) getting killed and helping them do their jobs more effectively.
If you're doing overland content, you don't need a tank and you shouldn't build yourself as one.
As others have said, if you find that you don't want to go back to tanking after being a DD then I suspect that tanking is not for you rather than it being a problem with the architecture of ESO.
Personally, I really enjoy tanking vet dungeons and trials - it's a great challenge that comes with great risks; you literally control the battlefield. If you screw up, you wipe the group.
I never expect that my tank, in its full vet trial tanking gear, would be suitable for overland content - if I want to do overland or something that doesn't need a tank, I can:
- Switch to a different toon
- Respec my skills / sets (even easier now with the armoury station / merchant)
Allowing a tank to deal 30k dps while holding a boss would be game breaking IMO - everyone would build unkillable block tanks, and healers and DDs would become moot. Everyone will get clears in vet dungeons and trials, and any challenge from the game would be gone.
Opting to be a DPS and do 70k DPS comes with the tradeoff that you're squishy, and need a tank to take the agro while you do your role.
This misses the point. Why should someone *not* be able to have an enjoyable experience with overland playing as a tank? Why should DD builds be the only ones that can effectively overland? They are a role for a group as well, why are they the only ones that also get to solo?
It's not a matter of not wanting the responsibility - I actually prefer tanking and it is my favorite role to play in the game.
But it is a shame that any sort of questing or overland is isolated to my DD builds, meaning that a majority of my characters can't participate in anything other than group content.
It's fine for me that you have your tormenter set and find it more enjoyable. I personally have never felt the need to have one TBH. Part of the challenge of tanks is to have the situation awareness to bring control and coordination to a chaotic situation. If you take that away by simply introducing an AE taunt through abilities, i.e. changing the other morph of ransack to be an AE taunt, you make tanking even less challenging and thus boring. Where DDs can show off their skill by learning their rotation by heart and execute them even under pressure, the skill level for tanks shows how they are able to handle chaotic situations IMO. Sure, that is not everyones favorite thing to do, but at least IMO divides good tanks from the mediocre.
But after playing with the The Tormenter set for over a month now I've come to the conclusion it actually does improve the tank game play. I used to agree with you, and made similar arguments against it. But now I'm admitting I was wrong. Because requiring tanks to taunt one mob at a time doesn't really add anything of value to the game. The "taunt only the dangerous mobs" sounds good in theory, but it doesn't really translate into the reality, especially if you pug a lot and play with inexperienced groups that need a lot more than the two mobs in the group with heavy attacks taunted to stay alive (which is a regular occurrence for any tank who pugs). The alternative is just so much better on every level, and you won't ever see me tanking on this game ever again without an AoE taunt. I've already been thoroughly converted. I look back now and don't even see how I put up with it.
But I do imagine this is probably one of the reasons Dragon Knights are so popular as tanks, because they have an effective AoE CC. So it's probably less of any issue for them.
... ESO tanking is just ... boring? Sure you can debuff and so on or pull enemy mobs, gotta keep that aggro going (without AoE taunt sigh) but holding RMB all the time is just so boring... As for the healer I got tired of how ZOS manages healers for different classes but that's off topic, so let's save it for another discussion.
[snip] like you can tank vet content in medium and in relation to that, you can do damage as a stam spec even on tank gear (PA body+etc).