Real tanks problems = (why no tanks in game) :

alcoraptor · December 2021

Franchise408 wrote: »

alcoraptor wrote: »

Tanking is a specific role designed for a specific job - stopping the DDs and healer(s) getting killed and helping them do their jobs more effectively.
If you're doing overland content, you don't need a tank and you shouldn't build yourself as one.

As others have said, if you find that you don't want to go back to tanking after being a DD then I suspect that tanking is not for you rather than it being a problem with the architecture of ESO.
Personally, I really enjoy tanking vet dungeons and trials - it's a great challenge that comes with great risks; you literally control the battlefield. If you screw up, you wipe the group.

I never expect that my tank, in its full vet trial tanking gear, would be suitable for overland content - if I want to do overland or something that doesn't need a tank, I can:
- Switch to a different toon
- Respec my skills / sets (even easier now with the armoury station / merchant)

Allowing a tank to deal 30k dps while holding a boss would be game breaking IMO - everyone would build unkillable block tanks, and healers and DDs would become moot. Everyone will get clears in vet dungeons and trials, and any challenge from the game would be gone.

Opting to be a DPS and do 70k DPS comes with the tradeoff that you're squishy, and need a tank to take the agro while you do your role.

This misses the point. Why should someone *not* be able to have an enjoyable experience with overland playing as a tank? Why should DD builds be the only ones that can effectively overland? They are a role for a group as well, why are they the only ones that also get to solo?

It's not a matter of not wanting the responsibility - I actually prefer tanking and it is my favorite role to play in the game.

But it is a shame that any sort of questing or overland is isolated to my DD builds, meaning that a majority of my characters can't participate in anything other than group content.

What are you expecting to be able to do as a tank for overland mobs or quests? They're specifically centered around killing things. A tank's role is, by design, to aid the DPS in killing things rather than actually killing them.

No-one is saying that you *can't* play overland as a tank. You can, of course, leave your full trial setup on and group up and taunt the boss while your group mates DPS it. You can even slowly pierce armour / shield bash that world boss to death if really you want to.

But expecting a character that's role is set up specifically not to do damage to be able do damage is, frankly, odd - particularly given that you now have multiple options to switch it out to DPS at the click of a button.

jaws343 · December 2021

Franchise408 wrote: »

alcoraptor wrote: »

Tanking is a specific role designed for a specific job - stopping the DDs and healer(s) getting killed and helping them do their jobs more effectively.
If you're doing overland content, you don't need a tank and you shouldn't build yourself as one.

As others have said, if you find that you don't want to go back to tanking after being a DD then I suspect that tanking is not for you rather than it being a problem with the architecture of ESO.
Personally, I really enjoy tanking vet dungeons and trials - it's a great challenge that comes with great risks; you literally control the battlefield. If you screw up, you wipe the group.

I never expect that my tank, in its full vet trial tanking gear, would be suitable for overland content - if I want to do overland or something that doesn't need a tank, I can:
- Switch to a different toon
- Respec my skills / sets (even easier now with the armoury station / merchant)

Allowing a tank to deal 30k dps while holding a boss would be game breaking IMO - everyone would build unkillable block tanks, and healers and DDs would become moot. Everyone will get clears in vet dungeons and trials, and any challenge from the game would be gone.

Opting to be a DPS and do 70k DPS comes with the tradeoff that you're squishy, and need a tank to take the agro while you do your role.

This misses the point. Why should someone *not* be able to have an enjoyable experience with overland playing as a tank? Why should DD builds be the only ones that can effectively overland? They are a role for a group as well, why are they the only ones that also get to solo?

It's not a matter of not wanting the responsibility - I actually prefer tanking and it is my favorite role to play in the game.

But it is a shame that any sort of questing or overland is isolated to my DD builds, meaning that a majority of my characters can't participate in anything other than group content.

Because the Tank and Healer role are specifically designed to be support roles with a group composition. If you want to do more solo oriented stuff you have to build for a more solo support type role, which includes dropping tankier sets in favor of sets that deal more damage, or changing skill loadouts to be more favorable for damage.

My tank and healer do not do overland content beyond picking up skyshards. They are tank and healer builds that do those specific things in groups.

My main is a DPS who uses two entirely different setups for end game DPS content than I do for solo content. Because each setup is not ideal for the different types of gameplay. My solo build, including gear and skills, is not ideal for group content, and my group build is not ideal for solo play. The same is true for tank builds and for healer builds. You just have to adjust.

MakoRuu · December 2021

The tanks in Final Fantasy XIV are damage dealers. js

azjuwelz · December 2021

The addition of Companions was a godsend for my tank. Now with just a few damage abilities slotted, I can do all the overland content I like including world bosses and public dungeons.

I could do most of that before, but it took longer, and certain foes were unbeatable if they could outheal my tankly low damage.

But no, that's not really what discourages tanks from playing. What has made me ready to put away my tank for good is that it's so hard to find that mentor or even guild willing to teach tanks who have completed the base Craglorn vet trials but are trying to do other vet trials. They typically won't let you wear gear that might help keep you alive, and don't seem to have any patience to let you learn. I've tried four different guilds, and it just feels like I'm never able to get help because I have a job and can't play all day every day.

It simply is the hardest job when you get to hard content. The leveling and overland was easy.

Franchise408 · December 2021

MakoRuu wrote: »

The tanks in Final Fantasy XIV are damage dealers. js

Tanks in every other MMO ever are also damage dealers. It is surprising to me that people are arguing as though it's the norm when I can go through literally every MMO I've ever played and roll tanks or healers that are still solo-capable in questing content.

Dojohoda · December 2021

Since Deadlands, bash builds are a thing again. There are two sets that players are using: Deadlands Demolisher and possibly veiled heritance. I don't know how well this adds to your topic, but below are the factors regarding bash with Deadlands.

Deadlands Demolisher - new set with Deadlands
2 – Adds 1096 Maximum Stamina
3 – Adds 129 Weapon and Spell Damage
4 – Adds 1096 Maximum Stamina
5 – Your Bash attacks deal 935 more damage. When you Bash, you also deal Physical Damage in a cone in front of you, interrupting any enemies hit. This effect can occur once every 2 seconds and counts as Bash damage.

from Deadlands patchnotes:
Made the following adjustments to Bash:
-This core combat skill now has a cooldown of 333ms, down from 350ms, to ensure it can be cast up to 3 times per second at most.
-Reduced the cost to 765, down from 1889, to ensure it is 1/3rd of a melee spammable.
-The damage now scales with a mixture of your Physical and Spell Resistance + 1 extra damage (to ensure if you’re at 0 for these stats, it still hits the target!)
-Reduced the cooldown phase after activating Bash that prevented you from casting other active abilities to 333ms, down from 700ms, for smoother gameplay when utilizing.
-Fixed an issue where some proc based conditions could unintentionally succeed when removing negative ground effects.
-The damage from this can now trigger enchantments and poisons.

Fennwitty · December 2021

alcoraptor wrote: »

Franchise408 wrote: »

alcoraptor wrote: »

Tanking is a specific role designed for a specific job - stopping the DDs and healer(s) getting killed and helping them do their jobs more effectively.
If you're doing overland content, you don't need a tank and you shouldn't build yourself as one.

As others have said, if you find that you don't want to go back to tanking after being a DD then I suspect that tanking is not for you rather than it being a problem with the architecture of ESO.
Personally, I really enjoy tanking vet dungeons and trials - it's a great challenge that comes with great risks; you literally control the battlefield. If you screw up, you wipe the group.

I never expect that my tank, in its full vet trial tanking gear, would be suitable for overland content - if I want to do overland or something that doesn't need a tank, I can:
- Switch to a different toon
- Respec my skills / sets (even easier now with the armoury station / merchant)

Allowing a tank to deal 30k dps while holding a boss would be game breaking IMO - everyone would build unkillable block tanks, and healers and DDs would become moot. Everyone will get clears in vet dungeons and trials, and any challenge from the game would be gone.

Opting to be a DPS and do 70k DPS comes with the tradeoff that you're squishy, and need a tank to take the agro while you do your role.

This misses the point. Why should someone *not* be able to have an enjoyable experience with overland playing as a tank? Why should DD builds be the only ones that can effectively overland? They are a role for a group as well, why are they the only ones that also get to solo?

It's not a matter of not wanting the responsibility - I actually prefer tanking and it is my favorite role to play in the game.

But it is a shame that any sort of questing or overland is isolated to my DD builds, meaning that a majority of my characters can't participate in anything other than group content.

What are you expecting to be able to do as a tank for overland mobs or quests? They're specifically centered around killing things. A tank's role is, by design, to aid the DPS in killing things rather than actually killing them.

No-one is saying that you *can't* play overland as a tank. You can, of course, leave your full trial setup on and group up and taunt the boss while your group mates DPS it. You can even slowly pierce armour / shield bash that world boss to death if really you want to.

But expecting a character that's role is set up specifically not to do damage to be able do damage is, frankly, odd - particularly given that you now have multiple options to switch it out to DPS at the click of a button.

That's only if you know how it is to begin with.

ESO's version of tanking is quite a bit different from most games.

In other games tanks will do *less* damage -- but they will not to *close to zero* damage like in ESO.

To the initial point: The problem, as often is, is this game doesn't separate PvE from PvP well enough.

If tanks do damage (as they were able to in the past) that becomes 'best' in PvP to have high survivability and not much if any damage loss.

To prevent PvP from being a super tanky slogfest ESO continually has been reigning in any damage ability for tanks (well, they have short periods of OP boosts that make no sense and which get nerfed later).

So much about this game depends on "do a lot of damage" that full tanks become overspecialized for group content, and basically unable to do solo content like Arenas -- unless they change their setup and stop being full tanks.

New players who look at builds online do *not* realize that the build is highly focused on a specific role. They think "this is how I make an X in ESO" and they do it.

And then they wind up with wet noodle 1-h and shield attacks and wonder why they can't get anything done on their own.

EDIT: As a newbie who made a tank because ... I usually play tanks in MMORPGs, I only understood the difference after a couple weeks.

When I had collected gear and had decent armor, good defense skills, etc. I went in to the Stonefalls public dungeon. At like level 20 maybe, I didn't grind.

My 1-h tank was fighting the bear boss solo and I definitely felt "Wow it can't kill me!" which was exciting. But I also couldn't kill *it*. The fight became a three or four minute battle of attrition just wearing it down. It's just a big sack of hit points and only has two attacks. After that I realized I wouldn't be able to solo the whole dungeon like this (Public dungeon mind you!) and started training up other weapons.

My DPS characters would waltz through bosses in under a minute, even when I barely understood the game.

Tsar_Gekkou · December 2021

Most high-end tanks run with friends because the average dps is so low that makes dungeons a snoozefest.

francesinhalover · December 2021

Succuby wrote: »

Just think - you start the game.

You do no damage, have problems even with mobs in overland.

Your DPS is 4k.

You are buff bot for a groups with no damage and you even can not do effective damage.

Sets you use before now - work only on DD, so to play is just pain.

That is how tanks lives and plays.

Some one say - change gear to DD.

OK ! But if tank change gear to dd he see more interesting game play and than after some time he - DO NOT WANT PLAY TANK !

I start as a tank. Each member of our guild has tank

But when we need tank - who will go tank ? No one wants. Because game play ... #$_&-+ ... not really interesting to play.

No tanks = no tanks in random = fake tanks, because no tanks and people need to dayly.

If as a tank you get into party, if it has low dps and is not really good - you can do ... nothing. But DD can easely solo a lot of dunguans.

Tanks can not ! Sets tanks use before was remade. Now tanks can not do damage. It is not interesting to play = no tanks.

Return procs to tanks, give abilitys that let tank do normal damage.

DD can tank with frost stuffs, but tanks can not do normal DPS in block with sword and shield.

Make it possible, add sets, return old sets, give skils to let tanks do normal damage.

With out it - it will not be interesting to play tanks.

If something is not interesting = no one play it, so no tanks !

Simple logick, simple truth.

Good DD can do 50-60+ k dps on 3 kk dummy.

If it would be possible for tank do 30-35-40k dps on 3 kk dummy whyle in block (may be casting damage skill in exchange of HP) it would not be game braking !

Tanks can do up to 15 k dps passivly before, now tanks can not and are limited by sets. Tanks can only bash now to get some dps, but it cost a lot of resources.

It will not be a lot of tanks if its game play is ... like it is now.

I think a lot of people will play tanks if they can do damage whyle tanking, because now tanks fill itself helpless at all in bad groups ! It is not what tanks want !

Tbh i don't understand why tanks don't do more damage...Sword n shield could use some damage buffs.

MEBengalsFan2001 · December 2021

Succuby wrote: »

Just think - you start the game.

You do no damage, have problems even with mobs in overland.

Your DPS is 4k.

You are buff bot for a groups with no damage and you even can not do effective damage.

Sets you use before now - work only on DD, so to play is just pain.

That is how tanks lives and plays.

Some one say - change gear to DD.

OK ! But if tank change gear to dd he see more interesting game play and than after some time he - DO NOT WANT PLAY TANK !

I start as a tank. Each member of our guild has tank

But when we need tank - who will go tank ? No one wants. Because game play ... #$_&-+ ... not really interesting to play.

No tanks = no tanks in random = fake tanks, because no tanks and people need to dayly.

If as a tank you get into party, if it has low dps and is not really good - you can do ... nothing. But DD can easely solo a lot of dunguans.

Tanks can not ! Sets tanks use before was remade. Now tanks can not do damage. It is not interesting to play = no tanks.

Return procs to tanks, give abilitys that let tank do normal damage.

DD can tank with frost stuffs, but tanks can not do normal DPS in block with sword and shield.

Make it possible, add sets, return old sets, give skils to let tanks do normal damage.

With out it - it will not be interesting to play tanks.

If something is not interesting = no one play it, so no tanks !

Simple logick, simple truth.

Good DD can do 50-60+ k dps on 3 kk dummy.

If it would be possible for tank do 30-35-40k dps on 3 kk dummy whyle in block (may be casting damage skill in exchange of HP) it would not be game braking !

Tanks can do up to 15 k dps passivly before, now tanks can not and are limited by sets. Tanks can only bash now to get some dps, but it cost a lot of resources.

It will not be a lot of tanks if its game play is ... like it is now.

I think a lot of people will play tanks if they can do damage whyle tanking, because now tanks fill itself helpless at all in bad groups ! It is not what tanks want !

There are armory now to resolve this.

Jeremy · December 2021

Succuby wrote: »

Just think - you start the game.

You do no damage, have problems even with mobs in overland.

Your DPS is 4k.

You are buff bot for a groups with no damage and you even can not do effective damage.

Sets you use before now - work only on DD, so to play is just pain.

That is how tanks lives and plays.

Some one say - change gear to DD.

OK ! But if tank change gear to dd he see more interesting game play and than after some time he - DO NOT WANT PLAY TANK !

I start as a tank. Each member of our guild has tank

But when we need tank - who will go tank ? No one wants. Because game play ... #$_&-+ ... not really interesting to play.

No tanks = no tanks in random = fake tanks, because no tanks and people need to dayly.

If as a tank you get into party, if it has low dps and is not really good - you can do ... nothing. But DD can easely solo a lot of dunguans.

Tanks can not ! Sets tanks use before was remade. Now tanks can not do damage. It is not interesting to play = no tanks.

Return procs to tanks, give abilitys that let tank do normal damage.

DD can tank with frost stuffs, but tanks can not do normal DPS in block with sword and shield.

Make it possible, add sets, return old sets, give skils to let tanks do normal damage.

With out it - it will not be interesting to play tanks.

If something is not interesting = no one play it, so no tanks !

Simple logick, simple truth.

Good DD can do 50-60+ k dps on 3 kk dummy.

If it would be possible for tank do 30-35-40k dps on 3 kk dummy whyle in block (may be casting damage skill in exchange of HP) it would not be game braking !

Tanks can do up to 15 k dps passivly before, now tanks can not and are limited by sets. Tanks can only bash now to get some dps, but it cost a lot of resources.

It will not be a lot of tanks if its game play is ... like it is now.

I think a lot of people will play tanks if they can do damage whyle tanking, because now tanks fill itself helpless at all in bad groups ! It is not what tanks want !

I agree with you that the gameplay for tanks on this game needs some serious work. But for different reasons. Because anyone with a decent rotation is going to obliterate overland mobs on this game. And that includes tanks. So I've never been able to relate to the argument that tanks can't do overland content on this game because I've never have any problems. World Bosses can take awhile to kill. But that's about it.

My main issue with tanking is essential actions like blocking are often obscured by effects or giant summons sitting right in your face so you can't see. Blocking also lags sometimes. Blocking generally is just poorly implemented on this game and needs a major overhaul. I've suggested giving them an ability that allows them to preemptively block heavy hitters. But the suggestion was widely mocked. So who knows, maybe tanks on this game enjoy being flattened by moves they can barely (if at all) see. That or they just us add ons that warn them when to block and then pretend it's a L2P issue when they are proof themselves that it isn't. But I digress.

The lack of an area taunt is also an issue, especially on certain fights, and can make playing as a tank absolutely miserable. So that doesn't help either.

FrancisCrawford · December 2021

Franchise408 wrote: »

alcoraptor wrote: »

Tanking is a specific role designed for a specific job - stopping the DDs and healer(s) getting killed and helping them do their jobs more effectively.
If you're doing overland content, you don't need a tank and you shouldn't build yourself as one.

As others have said, if you find that you don't want to go back to tanking after being a DD then I suspect that tanking is not for you rather than it being a problem with the architecture of ESO.
Personally, I really enjoy tanking vet dungeons and trials - it's a great challenge that comes with great risks; you literally control the battlefield. If you screw up, you wipe the group.

I never expect that my tank, in its full vet trial tanking gear, would be suitable for overland content - if I want to do overland or something that doesn't need a tank, I can:
- Switch to a different toon
- Respec my skills / sets (even easier now with the armoury station / merchant)

Allowing a tank to deal 30k dps while holding a boss would be game breaking IMO - everyone would build unkillable block tanks, and healers and DDs would become moot. Everyone will get clears in vet dungeons and trials, and any challenge from the game would be gone.

Opting to be a DPS and do 70k DPS comes with the tradeoff that you're squishy, and need a tank to take the agro while you do your role.

This misses the point. Why should someone *not* be able to have an enjoyable experience with overland playing as a tank? Why should DD builds be the only ones that can effectively overland? They are a role for a group as well, why are they the only ones that also get to solo?

It's not a matter of not wanting the responsibility - I actually prefer tanking and it is my favorite role to play in the game.

But it is a shame that any sort of questing or overland is isolated to my DD builds, meaning that a majority of my characters can't participate in anything other than group content.

My dungeon healer builds are almost as overpowered for overland play as my straight damage builds are.

Parasaurolophus · December 2021

First, everything in this game has its own function. The tank function is group content. Today we have an arsenal and you can quickly change your builds. So the problem is solved
Secondly, every high-level player in this game, according to my observations, has an alt tank. It's just a must if you want to play dungeons when you need to.

Jeremy · December 2021

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

Franchise408 wrote: »

alcoraptor wrote: »

Tanking is a specific role designed for a specific job - stopping the DDs and healer(s) getting killed and helping them do their jobs more effectively.
If you're doing overland content, you don't need a tank and you shouldn't build yourself as one.

As others have said, if you find that you don't want to go back to tanking after being a DD then I suspect that tanking is not for you rather than it being a problem with the architecture of ESO.
Personally, I really enjoy tanking vet dungeons and trials - it's a great challenge that comes with great risks; you literally control the battlefield. If you screw up, you wipe the group.

I never expect that my tank, in its full vet trial tanking gear, would be suitable for overland content - if I want to do overland or something that doesn't need a tank, I can:
- Switch to a different toon
- Respec my skills / sets (even easier now with the armoury station / merchant)

Allowing a tank to deal 30k dps while holding a boss would be game breaking IMO - everyone would build unkillable block tanks, and healers and DDs would become moot. Everyone will get clears in vet dungeons and trials, and any challenge from the game would be gone.

Opting to be a DPS and do 70k DPS comes with the tradeoff that you're squishy, and need a tank to take the agro while you do your role.

This misses the point. Why should someone *not* be able to have an enjoyable experience with overland playing as a tank? Why should DD builds be the only ones that can effectively overland? They are a role for a group as well, why are they the only ones that also get to solo?

It's not a matter of not wanting the responsibility - I actually prefer tanking and it is my favorite role to play in the game.

But it is a shame that any sort of questing or overland is isolated to my DD builds, meaning that a majority of my characters can't participate in anything other than group content.

My dungeon healer builds are almost as overpowered for overland play as my straight damage builds are.

Same. If my healer or DPS if even looks at a mob it's instant death. That's one reason I actually prefer playing as a tank on the overland. It makes the combat a little more interesting because everything isn't melting before I can even do anything.

Grandchamp1989 · December 2021

Jeremy wrote: »

Succuby wrote: »

Just think - you start the game.

You do no damage, have problems even with mobs in overland.

Your DPS is 4k.

You are buff bot for a groups with no damage and you even can not do effective damage.

Sets you use before now - work only on DD, so to play is just pain.

That is how tanks lives and plays.

Some one say - change gear to DD.

OK ! But if tank change gear to dd he see more interesting game play and than after some time he - DO NOT WANT PLAY TANK !

I start as a tank. Each member of our guild has tank

But when we need tank - who will go tank ? No one wants. Because game play ... #$_&-+ ... not really interesting to play.

No tanks = no tanks in random = fake tanks, because no tanks and people need to dayly.

If as a tank you get into party, if it has low dps and is not really good - you can do ... nothing. But DD can easely solo a lot of dunguans.

Tanks can not ! Sets tanks use before was remade. Now tanks can not do damage. It is not interesting to play = no tanks.

Return procs to tanks, give abilitys that let tank do normal damage.

DD can tank with frost stuffs, but tanks can not do normal DPS in block with sword and shield.

Make it possible, add sets, return old sets, give skils to let tanks do normal damage.

With out it - it will not be interesting to play tanks.

If something is not interesting = no one play it, so no tanks !

Simple logick, simple truth.

Good DD can do 50-60+ k dps on 3 kk dummy.

If it would be possible for tank do 30-35-40k dps on 3 kk dummy whyle in block (may be casting damage skill in exchange of HP) it would not be game braking !

Tanks can do up to 15 k dps passivly before, now tanks can not and are limited by sets. Tanks can only bash now to get some dps, but it cost a lot of resources.

It will not be a lot of tanks if its game play is ... like it is now.

I think a lot of people will play tanks if they can do damage whyle tanking, because now tanks fill itself helpless at all in bad groups ! It is not what tanks want !

I agree with you that the gameplay for tanks on this game needs some serious work. But for different reasons. Because anyone with a decent rotation is going to obliterate overland mobs on this game. And that includes tanks. So I've never been able to relate to the argument that tanks can't do overland content on this game because I've never have any problems. World Bosses can take awhile to kill. But that's about it.

My main issue with tanking is essential actions like blocking are often obscured by effects or giant summons sitting right in your face so you can't see. Blocking also lags sometimes. Blocking generally is just poorly implemented on this game and needs a major overhaul. I've suggested giving them an ability that allows them to preemptively block heavy hitters. But the suggestion was widely mocked. So who knows, maybe tanks on this game enjoy being flattened by moves they can barely (if at all) see. That or they just us add ons that warn them when to block and then pretend it's a L2P issue when they are proof themselves that it isn't. But I digress.

The lack of an area taunt is also an issue, especially on certain fights, and can make playing as a tank absolutely miserable. So that doesn't help either.

I think you're on to something.

I have been saying for ages now that Zos should be extremely careful with their balance nerfs on a role that's barely touched in PvE as it is - Tanks.
The overall quality of life nerfs didn't help much either.

- Tanks still get 500 friendly pets in their face when they tank, even though people have been asking for a way to view-toggle them on and off for ages.
- Bye Mistform
- Bye soft taunt
- Consistant nerfs on monster set helmets, Stonekeeper, Warden and Chudan, Bloodspawn all used to be much more powerful
- Balance changes that always has to take something AWAY from tanks through penalties:
* Heavy Armor slows you (no penalties for medium armor though?)
* Block CP slows you
* Spauldron of Ruins takes away your sustain
* Proc set damage nerf for PvE tanks
- Add spawns that deliberately stress the tanks by spawning adds extremely awkwardly. Often out of sight, and often behind the adds/bosses the Tank are holding - so you can't really taunt them properly in time (Stone Garden final boss, Dread Cellar spider boss, RPB etc. etc)
- Block and taunt often not registering properly, in my experience.
- You sacrifice your own survivability to be a mule for the DDs, and that sacrifice often doesn't pay out when DPS is very low.

It is not hard to see why people don't prefer to play a slow role, with no damage. A role that by far gets the most stressful and often awkward mechs to deal with on top of it..

dem0n1k · December 2021

General forum : Thread about not enough tanks.
Alliance War forum : Thread about too many tanks.

hrrmm...

SickDuck · December 2021

In group content a good tank can increase the DD's damage output easily to compensate the lack of its own damage.

Outside of group content, just learn to change clothes ffs. ZOS kindly gave us the perfect tool in the last update, so any excuse is outdated.

aetherial_heavenn · December 2021

Was discussing this with a tank the other day. Some of my thoughts. Well I'm kite flying really.

Tanks in groups in ESO are mainly modelled on the high health meat shield, protect your group, guardian style tanking role where the motivation is to protect your group and eat/block huge damage while keeping the enemy's attention so others in the group deal the damage and do the killing. This appeals to some players and motivates them to learn to tank early in game. But many find it tedious.

What seems to be under-rated, or not really catered for is the melee weapon wielding berserker champion tank wading in at the front of the group (or alone) cutting a swathe through the enemies and whose main motivation is to defeat those enemies or die gloriously in the attempt, surrounded by a huge pile of bodies. ie their motivation is not just to protect the other players. The role still could be heavy/medium armour wearing, melee weapon wielding (like a meat shield) but astute target switching to give melee aoe dps, more mobility, precise movement would all be necessary to survive. (ie the opposite of stand your ground block tanks.) These tanks would also love a pocket healer as they would be more fragile than the conventional high health block tank. So this option could solve the healers being redundant in most content problem.

I don't see a new class necessary to make the berserker tank work but a rework of tanking options in classes/skill lines and maybe some different armour sets could make the second role more viable and attractive in all content, not just easy overland stuff. I'd see it as primarily a stam based build BTW. but i am no theory crafter.

This may solve the current 'tanking is boring' in all but the most difficult dungeons/trials problem that we hear daily.

Or they could rework the entire threat table system. And I can't see that happening soon.

Amottica · December 2021

There are plenty of tanks in ESO. I have no problem getting a tank for a dungeon. Tanks in my guilds and some who have commented in threads like this say they refuse to use the GF due to getting paired with such low DPS too many times. They prefer to run with the guild so they know they will have a good run.

Also, with the new system, it makes it easy for a tank to swap to a build where they can do some damage for questing and swap back to tanking quickly. I did this with my tank even before this new system. It is very easy.

Kessra · December 2021

My main issue as a tank with this game is, that the whole content is catered around DPS. The more, the better. Seeing that DPS on (very) good DDs went from roughly 10-12k DPS before One Tamriel to now 160k+ DPS and comparing that with the DPS gains tanks received in the same time window, there is hardly any observable TBH. Back then in full tank gear I did like 5-6k, now I'm doing 6-7k. 1k+ in 7 years is not that much TBH.

I don't think tanking is overall complicated. Sure, tanks have a higher responsibility or higher barrier of entry if you will as the group more or less expects you to know by heart where each of the mobs spawn, where to place them and what mechanics the boss has to call them out to the raid and stuff. Though once you figured that out, tanking is for the most parts fine. The more progress-oriented the group you are in is playing, the more they will demand that you have to wear certain sets to provide the group with essential buffs and thus increase the ovearll DPS. These demands often come on the expanse of survivability as you also have to drop your block to do your support thing but also try to sneak in some heavy attacks to replensih your resources. The more independent you are from healers, the more healers can do their support for DDs. And this is a constant back and forth. In the end, DDs are the ones who usually dominate the gearing-choice like as mentioned before DPS is king and with enough DPS you are eventually able to skip certain mechanics. And who of the DDs really want to play mechanics when you simply rattle off your rotation and don't mind the remaining encounter. Just ask in the next raid how many of the people are familiar with playing the lunar phase at Rakkhat (vMoL) and you might be surprised how few actually do. I never understood that ZOS didn't intervene after seeing Beyond Infinity bursting Rakkhat before the lunar phase could even start. Other games litterally tide mechanics to certain boss percentage and if you are that good at dealing damage you might have overlapping mechanics which are usually devastating to the group. This at least didn't make those mechanics worthless and forced people to know about them.

As a tank from the first hour I never considered hiding behind block really an enjoyable gameplay and there is so much more you can do between certain boss abilities and an active taunt on the mob and all the tanks I had the pleasure to raid with more or less shared the same sentiment. But the "tankiness" also lead ZOS obviously no other choice as to implement block-or-die mechanics, which to this day I just find stupid and brainless. Especially when servers are laggy, which they used to be around Sunspire, that often lead to DDs demanding higher buff/debuff uptimes and one-shots through non-telegraphed and non-animated boss attacks wich were so fun to play that out of frustration after a couple of weaks running hardmodes I stopped playing ESO completly for more than 2 years.

In regards to killing overland stuff. I think most people are exaggerating here a bit. Sure, tanks wont kill normal trash mobs with a single hit, but they aren't a road blocker either. Especially when you have unlocked and leveled you companions a bit overland questing and stuff isn't a big problem. If you mean by overland stuff worldbosses, especially in DLC areas, sure, as a single tank you might be fighting for 20 minutes, but if played smart they also wont kill you in those 20 minutes. Companions however are usually not that smart and usually die rather quickly at those. But still I use them to speed things up a bit.

One thing that may not appeal others to tanking though is that for endgame raiding you are usually expected to have like 10-12 sets present to choose between. Dedicated setups for certain bosses and trash fights aren't that uncommon and you often run with full bags around as unlike DDs which are good to go with like 3-4 sets to choose between, you more or less carry your whole closet with you. But healers are somehow in the same boat I admit.

Kessra · December 2021

Jeremy wrote: »

My main issue with tanking is essential actions like blocking are often obscured by effects or giant summons sitting right in your face so you can't see. Blocking also lags sometimes. Blocking generally is just poorly implemented on this game and needs a major overhaul. I've suggested giving them an ability that allows them to preemptively block heavy hitters. But the suggestion was widely mocked. So who knows, maybe tanks on this game enjoy being flattened by moves they can barely (if at all) see. That or they just us add ons that warn them when to block and then pretend it's a L2P issue when they are proof themselves that it isn't. But I digress.

I agree that especially deadroth standing right in front of the mob prevent you from seing animation telegraphs and are therefore annoying. Though usually most abilities in normal/vet dungeons don't kill you instantly when you not block them. In raids those sets are luckily not that present.

But in the same topic, I'd really love to know who had the glorious idea to make the four copies you had to face-block during the Pinnacle Factotum encounter in Halls of Fabrication (vHOF) almost transparent and considered that fun. Especially as the few magica classes back then played with lightning staffs their wall of elements and eventually the staff ultimate all had the same color as the copies and therefore mad it almost impossible to really say with confidence which of the four copies is going to do the blow. To this day I sometimes dream of tanking those and I more or less stopped raiding 2 1/2 years ago ...

Jeremy wrote: »

The lack of an area taunt is also an issue, especially on certain fights, and can make playing as a tank absolutely miserable. So that doesn't help either.

As mentioned in an other thread I don't think AE taunts are necessary. They just foster a slopy playstyle and drag away some of the situation awareness a tank should have. Sure, it might be appealing for new tanks and esecially make some of the early dungeons you get into while leveling up a tank easier to tank, especially on classes that do not have that CC arsenal others have, but it also teaches tanks rather early on that not every mob needs or should be tanked and that tanks need to select their targets respectively for obvious reasons. That decision process gets easier with experience and knowledge, but also, I have rarely seen people blaming tanks that want to tank but lack experience.

NylAR · December 2021

thorwyn wrote: »

This is not a lot of games, this is ESO. What's possile in other games is completely irrelevant. We need to make THIS game work.

As a general rule of thumb, a DPS output of 35k on a 3m dummy roughly translates to 60-70k when fully buffed. So a trial group consisting of 10 blocking "tanks" and 2 healers would reliably generate round about 500k to 600k DPS... in tank gear and while blocking. You can easily do the math and see where that would lead to in veteran trials.

A tank is a role in a group. It has a purpose and the purpose is not deal damage. The purpose is to tank! That's your job. If that's too boring for you, you are either not playing the right content, or tank is not your cup of tea.

Exactly why ESO needs the change lol 😂

Jeremy · December 2021

Kessra wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

My main issue with tanking is essential actions like blocking are often obscured by effects or giant summons sitting right in your face so you can't see. Blocking also lags sometimes. Blocking generally is just poorly implemented on this game and needs a major overhaul. I've suggested giving them an ability that allows them to preemptively block heavy hitters. But the suggestion was widely mocked. So who knows, maybe tanks on this game enjoy being flattened by moves they can barely (if at all) see. That or they just us add ons that warn them when to block and then pretend it's a L2P issue when they are proof themselves that it isn't. But I digress.

I agree that especially deadroth standing right in front of the mob prevent you from seing animation telegraphs and are therefore annoying. Though usually most abilities in normal/vet dungeons don't kill you instantly when you not block them. In raids those sets are luckily not that present.

But in the same topic, I'd really love to know who had the glorious idea to make the four copies you had to face-block during the Pinnacle Factotum encounter in Halls of Fabrication (vHOF) almost transparent and considered that fun. Especially as the few magica classes back then played with lightning staffs their wall of elements and eventually the staff ultimate all had the same color as the copies and therefore mad it almost impossible to really say with confidence which of the four copies is going to do the blow. To this day I sometimes dream of tanking those and I more or less stopped raiding 2 1/2 years ago ...

Jeremy wrote: »

The lack of an area taunt is also an issue, especially on certain fights, and can make playing as a tank absolutely miserable. So that doesn't help either.

As mentioned in an other thread I don't think AE taunts are necessary. They just foster a slopy playstyle and drag away some of the situation awareness a tank should have. Sure, it might be appealing for new tanks and esecially make some of the early dungeons you get into while leveling up a tank easier to tank, especially on classes that do not have that CC arsenal others have, but it also teaches tanks rather early on that not every mob needs or should be tanked and that tanks need to select their targets respectively for obvious reasons. That decision process gets easier with experience and knowledge, but also, I have rarely seen people blaming tanks that want to tank but lack experience.

It's not necessary.

But after playing with the The Tormenter set for over a month now I've come to the conclusion it actually does improve the tank game play. I used to agree with you, and made similar arguments against it. But now I'm admitting I was wrong. Because requiring tanks to taunt one mob at a time doesn't really add anything of value to the game. The "taunt only the dangerous mobs" sounds good in theory, but it doesn't really translate into the reality, especially if you pug a lot and play with inexperienced groups that need a lot more than the two mobs in the group with heavy attacks taunted to stay alive (which is a regular occurrence for any tank who pugs). The alternative is just so much better on every level, and you won't ever see me tanking on this game ever again without an AoE taunt. I've already been thoroughly converted. I look back now and don't even see how I put up with it.

But I do imagine this is probably one of the reasons Dragon Knights are so popular as tanks, because they have an effective AoE CC. So it's probably less of any issue for them.

Succuby · December 2021

NylAR wrote: »

thorwyn wrote: »

This is not a lot of games, this is ESO. What's possile in other games is completely irrelevant. We need to make THIS game work.

As a general rule of thumb, a DPS output of 35k on a 3m dummy roughly translates to 60-70k when fully buffed. So a trial group consisting of 10 blocking "tanks" and 2 healers would reliably generate round about 500k to 600k DPS... in tank gear and while blocking. You can easily do the math and see where that would lead to in veteran trials.

A tank is a role in a group. It has a purpose and the purpose is not deal damage. The purpose is to tank! That's your job. If that's too boring for you, you are either not playing the right content, or tank is not your cup of tea.

Exactly why ESO needs the change lol 😂

People with not enough games knowledge try to teach people about their roles job

Yes exactly it is a problem of this game.

And what if people do not want ?

Some DD say to tanks how they must enjoy to play. Play tank yourself than, you play DD becouse it is fun.

Tank is not.

It will not be a problem if tanks do 30k dps to 3 kk dummy in block. 30k*2 full buffed is 60 k DPS. It is enough to close HMs of trials with really good tanks, but not enough to close trifectas as example.

But you can close a lot even with out a tank, problem is not enough DD skilled in it.

And when you get damage your DPS falls.

2 simple rules. Not about tanks must or must not do.

You as DD want it from tank - tank really must not anything !

Such game play of be buff bot is not what a lot of good tank players wants.

More dinamik play can be a solution, just look what DD with 40-50 k dps on dummy can do on bosses solo, and why not to give at least 30 k dps to tanks to not be buff botes and have better gameplay ?

https://youtu.be/aeDsOVw9wrE

A lot of tanks would may be like more dinamik gameplay by do damage to boss, but with more easy way to get it. Others would play like now.

Now tanks even have not alternate to this. They can not effectivly do damage in block like before.

So you play and be buff bot or you do not play.

Now we just walk with out tank, becouse we each have alt tank, it is not fun to play it.

Meet shield role is not what a lot of tanks want and i do not see reason do not give any alternate to it ! To people who can not tank on DD - give option to DD on tanks and may be when it becomes more fun you will see more tanks in randoms ?

Jamdarius · December 2021

Let us be honest for a second, although the tanking in ESO is unique it is simply not fun for most players. I have always played support roles in every single mmo, be it tank or healer or just bard/buffer type class and in ESO tanking is just ... boring? Sure you can debuff and so on or pull enemy mobs, gotta keep that aggro going (without AoE taunt sigh) but holding RMB all the time is just so boring... As for the healer I got tired of how ZOS manages healers for different classes but that's off topic, so let's save it for another discussion.

WraithShadow13 · December 2021

I think, part of the issue, is that the game doesn't really TEACH you how to do the roles. I love that this game is very much "play your own way" allowing us to use whatever skills we want and leveling said skills based on how much we use them. I LOVE that. But the game doesn't teach you anything about how to play.

Look at DPS, for example. My main is DPS, or i should say "DPS" because he does *maybe* 17-23k damage. It's fine for most missions and base PvE but it's entirely laughable ANYWHERE else in-game. The game really seems to punish you for not doing any more damage than that, and thanks to a very toxic community, the PLAYERS will also punish you for it. The down side being that, not only does the game NOT teach you how to do DPS, but it totally caters to those doing MASSIVE DPS, further distancing players and content. I have to go to other websites to learn how to do the higher DPS, and even then, it takes away from the game because Min-Maxers usually have to have X meta gear, X rotations, X skill points, etc, which takes away a lot of the fun of the "play your own way" aspect.

As a tank, I've basically done a lot of "bullet sponge" style, which works in most places but in the same vein, the game doesn't TEACH you how to tank. And more so, thanks to the DPS catering and things like the ring of the pale order, those high-end DPS builds or min-maxed builds can often out tank me WHILE out DPSing me. Toss on top of that, the toxic community, now equipped with a build and rotation copy/pasted from a website or youtube video, and suddenly, now i'm being trash talked by the guy trying to tank or standing in AOE's because they're taking damage or the boss keeps attacking them. I've even had people get mad at me for not tanking when THEY were the ones running ahead and starting fights without the rest of the team.

As a healer, it's easier than tanking or DPS because there are plenty of choices for healing and self-heals. There is a weapon singularly dedicated to healing, and when dungeoning, you can easily set up a decent base healer build without having to worry about it. But just like everything else, the game does NOTHING to TEACH you how to heal. Or more so, those same high powered DPS players can use that DPS to somehow throw out some insane self-healing, even without the Pale Order ring? It just seems like either a VERY broken system, or that Zos has neglected to balance this game, at all, and just catered to the already one-sided DPS in this game. Can you really tank in PvP? If you're a healer in PvP, is there any point when those very players are doing more damage than some classes have health points?

It's all an excessively one-sided thing, just like the OP was saying.

Zos isn't balancing the game. Zos isn't keeping tanking or healing anywhere near as viable as DPS. As the DPS numbers continue to grow higher at those far ends, Zos isn't doing anything to teach players how to achieve such DPS, despite it being such a big part of end game, PvP, and any content above normal difficulty. Granted, they also don't do anything against the growing distance between min-maxed dps vs casual dps and they most certainly aren't doing anything about toxic community issues, so i doubt that ANY of the issued brought up in this threat are going to be fixed anytime soon.

At this point, if they're not going to bother fixing the actual issues, maybe they should just drop the trinity all together, removing the need for tanks and healers in dungeons. I'm sure that plenty of the hardcore players could easily do the vet content with 4 DPS, faster than any random team on normal would do.

Regardless, this has been a constant issue in the game for a while now and they really need to address it. Zos NEEDS to address this, as it's clearly getting worse and will continue to do so, without getting better or evening out. I would recommend doing an official thread on the forums, asking the players for advice, suggestions, and possible solutions or compromises for the current state of things.

NerfSeige · December 2021

[snip] like you can tank vet content in medium and in relation to that, you can do damage as a stam spec even on tank gear (PA body+etc).

You want heavy armor? Then use proc sets that scale with hp and resists.

You want S&B? Then use class spammables, build SD/WD through other means, use lover or skills for pen.

I swear to god, you guys need to PVP so that you can learn how to build damage in whatever you want to wear.

Of course most things will not be optimal on group content but who cares? You do you, unless it’s an organized prog/ball group then you gotta build with the group in mind.

[edited for baiting]

edward_frigidhands · December 2021

Franchise408 wrote: »

alcoraptor wrote: »

Tanking is a specific role designed for a specific job - stopping the DDs and healer(s) getting killed and helping them do their jobs more effectively.
If you're doing overland content, you don't need a tank and you shouldn't build yourself as one.

As others have said, if you find that you don't want to go back to tanking after being a DD then I suspect that tanking is not for you rather than it being a problem with the architecture of ESO.
Personally, I really enjoy tanking vet dungeons and trials - it's a great challenge that comes with great risks; you literally control the battlefield. If you screw up, you wipe the group.

I never expect that my tank, in its full vet trial tanking gear, would be suitable for overland content - if I want to do overland or something that doesn't need a tank, I can:
- Switch to a different toon
- Respec my skills / sets (even easier now with the armoury station / merchant)

Allowing a tank to deal 30k dps while holding a boss would be game breaking IMO - everyone would build unkillable block tanks, and healers and DDs would become moot. Everyone will get clears in vet dungeons and trials, and any challenge from the game would be gone.

Opting to be a DPS and do 70k DPS comes with the tradeoff that you're squishy, and need a tank to take the agro while you do your role.

This misses the point. Why should someone *not* be able to have an enjoyable experience with overland playing as a tank? Why should DD builds be the only ones that can effectively overland? They are a role for a group as well, why are they the only ones that also get to solo?

It's not a matter of not wanting the responsibility - I actually prefer tanking and it is my favorite role to play in the game.

But it is a shame that any sort of questing or overland is isolated to my DD builds, meaning that a majority of my characters can't participate in anything other than group content.

Because it will break the balance of the game.

Succuby · December 2021

Before this updates tank can use any proc sets, now choise is to limited !

It is not play like your want at all, game needs a lot if alternates in a lot of ways possible.

Trials, with bosses go in rage and lose agro, more clewer fights. Now it looks like game try to just overkill players with adds and stats.

In a lot of games taunt has its limit to not let overdamage bosses. Tesso is other game.

It really did not let play like you want. It try to make all like buff stats last updated.

Let us look on old content. It was more thoughtful.

Current game just make it impossible to pass some achivments with not enough dps.

Only stat buff and dps game type was promoted.

No real chalange, no real fun. People just kill boss whyle it stands like a dummy.

It is named "skiled" in this game.

Make at least 1 trial where boss lose agr, go enrage and say - do you think you can just dps me - and go strike people in their faces. It would be more fun, than AOE - Adds, lets buff group and kill it quickly game play. Because last trials are just like: DPS DPS DPS and buff the group.

No real alternate to only 1 game style, it is not like - play like you want.

It was before, but no you get hard limitation on sets and stats for it, better sets with too big values.

You have to buff group as a tank - you have no alternate to it. I want tanks can have it by doing damage of near same ammount as example. Not be buff bots for the group of:

Buff - 100 k dps per DD, phase skip, phase skip -> the end.

A lot if people can not already do it any other way. They will wipe if they will not skip.

And only this game stlye is promoted ! Where is alternate, where is play like you want ?
It have to change, fights have to be more epic. Than game will be more interesting to play and we will get more tanks.

Lets look in standart group:
75 k dps*8DD= 600k DPS

If each tank buff party for 8-10% it would be 700 k dps.

If each tank do 50-60 k DPS in dps sets it will be the same number. And for a lot of people it can be more interesting gameplay.

With out a buff it will be about 30-35 k DPS, but tank will not be helpless. It can do DPS it can pass with bad groups. It is more interesting to play like this

It can solo dunguans, like DD already can.

Why not to give such option ?

And it already was such option to start with before proc sets nerf for tanks !

Kessra · December 2021

Jeremy wrote: »

But after playing with the The Tormenter set for over a month now I've come to the conclusion it actually does improve the tank game play. I used to agree with you, and made similar arguments against it. But now I'm admitting I was wrong. Because requiring tanks to taunt one mob at a time doesn't really add anything of value to the game. The "taunt only the dangerous mobs" sounds good in theory, but it doesn't really translate into the reality, especially if you pug a lot and play with inexperienced groups that need a lot more than the two mobs in the group with heavy attacks taunted to stay alive (which is a regular occurrence for any tank who pugs). The alternative is just so much better on every level, and you won't ever see me tanking on this game ever again without an AoE taunt. I've already been thoroughly converted. I look back now and don't even see how I put up with it.

It's fine for me that you have your tormenter set and find it more enjoyable. I personally have never felt the need to have one TBH. Part of the challenge of tanks is to have the situation awareness to bring control and coordination to a chaotic situation. If you take that away by simply introducing an AE taunt through abilities, i.e. changing the other morph of ransack to be an AE taunt, you make tanking even less challenging and thus boring. Where DDs can show off their skill by learning their rotation by heart and execute them even under pressure, the skill level for tanks shows how they are able to handle chaotic situations IMO. Sure, that is not everyones favorite thing to do, but at least IMO divides good tanks from the mediocre.

Jeremy wrote: »

But I do imagine this is probably one of the reasons Dragon Knights are so popular as tanks, because they have an effective AoE CC. So it's probably less of any issue for them.

I'm not sur what tank class you play, but as a DK, Warden and Necro tank I never missed an AE taunt TBH. As sorc, templar or NB tank I can though see your argument. The former three have decent CC abilities you can use to taunt mobs one by one and bring a bit of control to the usual chaotic pull scenario, especially after changing the "initial agro" on running into the group first.

Jamdarius wrote: »

... ESO tanking is just ... boring? Sure you can debuff and so on or pull enemy mobs, gotta keep that aggro going (without AoE taunt sigh) but holding RMB all the time is just so boring... As for the healer I got tired of how ZOS manages healers for different classes but that's off topic, so let's save it for another discussion.

The more experience you have in tanking, the less you will hide behind the shield and only block when necessary. Especially in end-game raiding as a tank you are more or less supposed to debuff mobs and then buff your group as much as possible. Good groups litterally damnd a certain amount of buff/debuff uptimes which are only obtainable by blocking just the essential, block-or-die, stuff.

NerfSeige wrote: »

[snip] like you can tank vet content in medium and in relation to that, you can do damage as a stam spec even on tank gear (PA body+etc).

I hope you mean me, but I'm tanking (vet) dungeons in medium gear already

Though I usually wear support-gear through and through. Otherwise keeping up with those fast-paced DDs rushing forward is hard. Supports sets though are only benefitial if you group actually is able to utilize those buffs. With a group dps of less than 30k such sets though are usually ... worthless as using warhorn is and other support stuff like spaming vigor with powerful assault gear and stuff like that.

Tanking PvE and PvP however are two different beasts. There are certain PvP builds out there which also don't aim at killing people but focusing at not dying and sitting out fights against more players till other players come to join the battle. And to be fair, the current PvP meta is not very appealing also, especially with that heavy focus on light-attack weaving that most of the heavy-pvpers almost execute perfectly and thus almost don't allow any room for real counters except for back-pressure.

[edited to remove quote]