"Joining Encounter In Progress" = VERY VERY VERY BAD IDEA

jle30303

The reason it is a bad idea, is that being pulled *forwards* in a dungeon, for players who are behind a rusher because they're trying to actually deal with the dungeon's quest, means that it breaks the quest line and prevents them gaining the skill point from that dungeon.

When the rusher then dies because they couldn't handle it, it only serves them right, but even then, if a new person joins the dungeon and tries to get forward to where the rest of the team are, (a) they may have already missed one or more bosses and (b) they still have to fight, alone, through all the trash that was previously skipped BY PEOPLE WHO DID NOT EVEN WANT TO SKIP IT.

If some players are to be pulled to the location of other players in a dungeon, it must be the FRONT player that is pulled BACKWARDS.

If you don't like that: Learn to kill as you go, so that other players in the team can actually keep up.

colossalvoids

Or just disable this feature in normal difficulty dungeons if they're accessed via "Random" option in Dungeon Finder tool solely allowing others to finally utilise this long awaited feature already present in all recent dlc content.

redspecter23

Perhaps it should change to a prompt.

Your teammate has engaged the next boss encounter! Press F to join the encounter in progress. Press X to initiate a vote to kick the zerger.

Vevvev

redspecter23 wrote: »

Perhaps it should change to a prompt.

Your teammate has engaged the next boss encounter! Press F to join the encounter in progress. Press X to initiate a vote to kick the zerger.

I wouldn't have it instantly default to kicking the person that jumped ahead. That's equally as abusive.

redspecter23

Vevvev wrote: »

redspecter23 wrote: »

Perhaps it should change to a prompt.

Your teammate has engaged the next boss encounter! Press F to join the encounter in progress. Press X to initiate a vote to kick the zerger.

I wouldn't have it instantly default to kicking the person that jumped ahead. That's equally as abusive.

For sure. I was going for a bit of sarcasm in the statement, but it's clear that the new system is being abused by some players. It was clear that would happen as soon as it was announced.

I enjoy the new system, but I also consider the needs of the rest of the group, which is not always the case.

Giving players a way out or some easier way to get rid of the zerger would be welcome. It's not like they can't kick them anyway, the zerging does make it difficult in the heat of combat though.

Xebov

redspecter23 wrote: »

For sure. I was going for a bit of sarcasm in the statement, but it's clear that the new system is being abused by some players. It was clear that would happen as soon as it was announced.

How is it abused? Its working exactly as intended and pulls the group together. This "feature" already was part of some dungeons from their release. The only new thing about it is that it gets added to other dungeons. For the dungeons where it was already existing i never saw a complaint that its bad.

Dragonlord573

The only dungeon you actually have to do the quest in is Vaults of Madness.

redspecter23

Xebov wrote: »

redspecter23 wrote: »

For sure. I was going for a bit of sarcasm in the statement, but it's clear that the new system is being abused by some players. It was clear that would happen as soon as it was announced.

How is it abused? Its working exactly as intended and pulls the group together. This "feature" already was part of some dungeons from their release. The only new thing about it is that it gets added to other dungeons. For the dungeons where it was already existing i never saw a complaint that its bad.

It allows for easier griefing. Players that are on quest objectives or are a bit slower. It's not a problem in all situations but when a group comes together in which the fast players are on the very fast end and the slow players are on the very slow end, this can destroy the enjoyment of the slower players. They are basically just being dragged from encounter to encounter.

In the DLC dungeons where this has already been in place, the boss encounters are generally a bit slower or even mechanically very difficult with only one player. Some of the newer dungeons with this added mechanic have bosses that can be solo blitzed extremely fast. That causes an issue where you barely get to the encounter before it's already over and someone is on their way to the next.

This is absolutely not an issue for all groups, only when you get drastically different playspeeds for the players in the group. This can even be something as simple as waiting for a quest to advance and being unable to do so.

colossalvoids

Also before dismissing this feature as a harmful just remember all those hours you were in sneak before the very doors in WS 1-2, BH etc. waiting to enter the room while some lucky fella got in.

redspecter23

colossalvoids wrote: »

Also before dismissing this feature as a harmful just remember all those hours you were in sneak before the very doors in WS 1-2, BH etc. waiting to enter the room while some lucky fella got in.

It's definitely a great feature for things like that. I'd argue the better fix might be to allow the door to be used even if in combat. They have a door that already functions like that at the end of Volenfell as you will always be in combat if someone is on the quest.

I don't think anyone is saying that there are no benefits. The issue is that some players are using the mechanic specifically to grief other players, which is probably not a great thing.

Yes, the issue lies with the player for the most part. The "fix" is to remove the player if it's seen as griefing in that particular group. Players either hesitate to do so or perhaps don't know they can do that.

Tannus15

Dragonlord573 wrote: »

The only dungeon you actually have to do the quest in is Vaults of Madness.

fungal 2

Adremal

In my opinion this whole runners thing is being greatly exaggerated. I've been running randoms and some pledges on my newly-50'd alts (thanks Witch Festival), at least 10 per day, if I manage 14 per day, and I've only once stumbled into a rude runner who refused to stop when someone asked to do a quest (but the others stayed behind and he didn't manage to pull anyone in), and a fake tank over 2000 CP who was hilarious because he rushed ahead and despite the dungeon being normal managed to die a lot. That's not much, considering the size of the sampling pool (it's not like I wasn't already running randoms and/or pledges before having new 50s, now I run more to do the quests and grab the points along with the crystals). Also what @colossalvoids said. A toggle to kick the zerger could easily be abused, not to mention the misclicks (am I the only one here who routinely declines a queue by accident?); there already is a kick function, it works, and when someone is rude one way or another it's enough to solve the issue in the overwhelming majority of cases I've faced.

renne

No it's a great idea. All dungeons and trials should have it. There's nothing worse than someone rushing into a boss arena, accidentally aggroing the boss and then everyone else is stuck waiting outside of the door. Or if you dc halfway through the dungeon, come back in and you can be pulled into where the rest of the group is easily.

Your second paragraph literally talks about why it's a good idea. If you're a new player joining the dungeon halfway through you shouldn't have to fight your way to the next boss, because the portal puts you at the last boss. And yeah, if you join a dungeon halfway through you ARE going to have missed bosses that's literally the point whether this mechanic exists or not. If you don't want to miss bosses or fight your way through skipped trash you are free to requeue.

This is just seems like another complaint thread about people rushing dungeons, getting in early for the Undaunted event. Your issue isn't with the "joining encounter in process" it's literally just rushers, and there's tons and tons of threads already addressing this and things you can do about it.

Xebov

redspecter23 wrote: »

It allows for easier griefing. Players that are on quest objectives or are a bit slower. It's not a problem in all situations but when a group comes together in which the fast players are on the very fast end and the slow players are on the very slow end, this can destroy the enjoyment of the slower players. They are basically just being dragged from encounter to encounter.

This has nothing to do with griefing. Its 2 players having different goals and playstyles ending up in the same place while following their goals.

The main issue with players doing their quest is that the majority does not communicate it in the group chat and instead expect that everyone magically knows it.

kargen27

Xebov wrote: »

redspecter23 wrote: »

It allows for easier griefing. Players that are on quest objectives or are a bit slower. It's not a problem in all situations but when a group comes together in which the fast players are on the very fast end and the slow players are on the very slow end, this can destroy the enjoyment of the slower players. They are basically just being dragged from encounter to encounter.

This has nothing to do with griefing. Its 2 players having different goals and playstyles ending up in the same place while following their goals.

The main issue with players doing their quest is that the majority does not communicate it in the group chat and instead expect that everyone magically knows it.

If it is two players with different goals why does the game get to decide one goal is more important than another? And why would it decide in favor of the one skipping content?

I think for daily rewards you shouldn't get the reward unless everything hostile in the dungeon is dead. No skipping a skeever stuck back in a corner somewhere. Everything dies or you didn't finish the objective. That stops the problem when it comes to players just wanting the daily rewards on multiple characters.
Bit trickier stopping the players that only want the last boss for a gear drop. That would require a rework so that the boss is isolated until all other bosses and mini bosses are dead. I know they stuck weapons and jewelry on the end boss so players couldn't just farm the first boss instead of running content. As it is now though we have the same problem just in reverse. Farming the last boss while skipping most the content.

bmnoble

I would rather it happen when someone is porting in as a replacement for someone in the group that got kicked.

The whole argument of getting stuck behind doors because someone aggro-ed the boss on the other side has an easier fix make the doors actually open and stay open once someone has gone through, you can't tell me they can't do it when they already have a mix and match of door types in various dungeons already.


I had a run a few weeks back in normal fungal grotto 1, I was healing on my main, had a low level tank and damage dealer and one CP600 or so player in the group, the CP600 damage dealer rushes off the falls to go fight the last boss, I followed the other two who decided to kill their way through the dungeon(They were not doing the quest) the CP600 guy gets to the last boss as where clearing the others, he gets the boss down to 75% health then gets himself killed by it, starts yelling and screaming in chat that we should hurry up.

A whole 5 minutes later we get there after killing the bosses on the way and as a group we deal with the boss no issue.

In that example which of us would be pulled to the others? the guy going down the waterfall to the last boss or us carrying on with the other bosses, say we rush to the next boss before he reaches the final boss will he be pulled back up to the rest of the group?

If that is the case I am all for it, if we can rush to the next boss in the dungeon and pull back the rusher who tried to skip it.

jle30303

Generally: In normal, I am likely to assume that at least one person may be doing the dungeon quest (even if I am not), unless they say otherwise in chat when I ask. In veteran, I am likely to assume that nobody is, unless they speak up themselves right at the start. I think this approach makes sense.

spartaxoxo

There's only a few dungeons that absolutely have to be done in a group. I think if they made Companions easier to gear up and went back and changed forced group mechanics in dungeons like Direfrost Keep on normal, it could serve as a story mode that would let people do the story on their own. It's better on your own anyway because you actually get to hear the dialogue.

Hapexamendios

I'm fine with it myself. Don't mind being taken straight to the boss fight even if doing quest. Can always be done later.

Auztinito

Honestly, they should just remove quests from dungeons if they are going to reward rushing them and solidifying them as normal behavior. Give skill points at the end of completion of dungeon. You won’t have issues with rushers because players will not have to worry about completing a quest and players that like quests can/will ignore dungeons and not feel obligated to do them.

Skullstachio

Ideally, we already have a normal/veteran random lfg for such a purpose, but I reckon there ought to be a Random Normal/Veteran Speed LFG seperate from others as it would cater to speed runners while sharing the same lootpool as the standard lfg’s.

the only added incentive to speed LFG’s would be additional transmute crystals based on how fast each boss was killed prior to entering the dungeon and starting the first encounter, plus a bit more based on total time spent with extra crystals being allocated to players for every 5 minutes below the 30 minute threshold.

Random Speed LFG’s:

• Shares the same reward pool as standard Normal/Veteran LFG (thus you would only get the premium goods once every daily reset.)
  • You get additional transmute crystals for completing the dungeon in less than 30 minutes (Ideal to speed running times.) with extra crystals for every 5 minutes below 30. up to a good amount at a maximum of 15 minutes and no more.
  • You also get transmute crystals based on how fast you kill “All” bosses in the dungeon which is totaled up upon defeating the final boss. (skipping a boss before killing the final boss will not yield these crystals and forfeit this portion of transmute crystals for the remainder of the dungeon.)

ZOS would choose the number of crystals offered with this particular concept, but truthfully, I just want speedrunners to be gone from the normal/veteran standard lfg’s, because when people skip just to get a measly number of transmutes, it most certainly leaves a sour taste in peoples mouthes as well as affecting a portion of their psyche, thus creating an unneeded division amongst the players which may result in losses from all aspects (whether it would be players enjoying the game, those consensually buying crowns to support their favourite dev team which go all out to create that which we have bought or even be given, or even players doing each group dungeons quest to “earn a skill point” so that they can become better. or even building their character so that they may one day even be able to do Normal or even Veteran Trials for some really good trials gear to become even better in general and help others along that road, but even I’m scratching the proverbial surface of things to do in the Elder Scrolls.)

redspecter23

Xebov wrote: »

redspecter23 wrote: »

It allows for easier griefing. Players that are on quest objectives or are a bit slower. It's not a problem in all situations but when a group comes together in which the fast players are on the very fast end and the slow players are on the very slow end, this can destroy the enjoyment of the slower players. They are basically just being dragged from encounter to encounter.

This has nothing to do with griefing. Its 2 players having different goals and playstyles ending up in the same place while following their goals.

The main issue with players doing their quest is that the majority does not communicate it in the group chat and instead expect that everyone magically knows it.

When 2 different playstyles clash, both sides are being grieved. In this situation, the slower players have an out by voting to kick. The faster players can run as fast as they want and risk getting kicked.

It's the nature of random groups. Sometimes players will have different playstyles. There is no right or wrong, just behavior that can get you kicked in any given group.

There is also the option of just not using the group finder and running with friends and guildmates. That way, neither side feels grieved ideally. It should be a more enjoyable run for all.

The point is that griefing is subjective. Anyone can feel they have been grieved. It may not even necessarily be against any rules, which is what we have here. Running really fast through a dungeon, not caring about anyone else is not inherently an actionable offense. It's inconsiderate potentially and that's up to any given individual to decide if they care about that or not. In extreme situations anything can be considered actionable griefing when reported to ZOS. That's up for them to decide.

Kiralyn2000

If you're dealing with a speedrunner, were you even going to be able to get the quest in the first place? Or would the dungeon end (or a step be skipped by the boss dying) before you got it.

In which case, getting dragged to the end at least means you don't miss out on the kill/loot.

Ippokrates

redspecter23 wrote: »

Perhaps it should change to a prompt.

Your teammate has engaged the next boss encounter! Press F to join the encounter in progress. Press X to initiate a vote to kick the zerger.

Yup, that is the best solution, i mean F button

I lost one or two chests because of automatic TP.

Troodon80

I always, always, always wait for people in random queues. If you have the quest then I'm the one to remind you that you need to speak to an NPC before we go further.



I'm a firm believer that a group is as strong as its weakest link and that a group should go as slow as its slowest member. While the former is true, few people will care about the latter. A random group, however, will most often go as fast as whoever takes control and sets the pace.

This is the same in any MMO and more especially towards content where roles don't matter as much. Anyone who knows Palace of the Dead or Heaven-on-High knows what I'm talking about. If you can't keep up, that's what the new system is there for; to ensure you get your rewards and that you won't miss out. If you don't like that someone else is controlling the pace of "your" dungeon run, I strongly encourage you to find a group of friends or join a guild where you get to set the pace in a pre-made group.

Kwoung

Simple fix would be take the opposite approach, instead of pulling group members forward who may not be ready, haven't clicked their quest mob, or whatever. Simply block engaging bosses until your entire group is in range and ready. This would put the onus of wanting to "speed run" on the person wanting to do it, he will have to find a speed run group, instead of forcing everyone else who may not want that to keep up with him.

Could be as simple as the hard mode switch, click thing by boss, everyone has to answer ready, and until then the boss can't be engaged. Seems a far more reasonable approach that would actually "fix" the issue, than yanking folks forward who may not be ready.

lolo_01b16_ESO

kargen27 wrote: »

Xebov wrote: »

redspecter23 wrote: »

It allows for easier griefing. Players that are on quest objectives or are a bit slower. It's not a problem in all situations but when a group comes together in which the fast players are on the very fast end and the slow players are on the very slow end, this can destroy the enjoyment of the slower players. They are basically just being dragged from encounter to encounter.

This has nothing to do with griefing. Its 2 players having different goals and playstyles ending up in the same place while following their goals.

The main issue with players doing their quest is that the majority does not communicate it in the group chat and instead expect that everyone magically knows it.

If it is two players with different goals why does the game get to decide one goal is more important than another? And why would it decide in favor of the one skipping content?

I think for daily rewards you shouldn't get the reward unless everything hostile in the dungeon is dead. No skipping a skeever stuck back in a corner somewhere. Everything dies or you didn't finish the objective. That stops the problem when it comes to players just wanting the daily rewards on multiple characters.
Bit trickier stopping the players that only want the last boss for a gear drop. That would require a rework so that the boss is isolated until all other bosses and mini bosses are dead. I know they stuck weapons and jewelry on the end boss so players couldn't just farm the first boss instead of running content. As it is now though we have the same problem just in reverse. Farming the last boss while skipping most the content.

You are aware that there are dungeons with bugged unkillable adds? So in those dungeons following your idea you could never get a reward anymore because it's impossible to kill all adds. (And before you say ZOS should fix those adds: As far as I'm aware, they have failed to fix them for roughly 5 years, so that's not going to happen).

spartaxoxo

Troodon80 wrote: »

. If you can't keep up, that's what the new system is there for; to ensure you get your rewards and that you won't miss out. If you don't like that someone else is controlling the pace of "your" dungeon run, I strongly encourage you to find a group of friends or join a guild where you get to set the pace in a pre-made group.

I agree. I've even offered several times to run people a second time if I see them lagging behind trying to do the quest and got no response during any of them. I haven't had any takers but I also seen enough people complain about missing it to know it's an issue. I feel like people being unable to hear the quest is an issue, but not with random dungeons. I think the very concept of random dungeons makes it totally ill-suited to hearing a quest.

The pace will inevitably be set by someone taking charge and everyone more or less following that person. And sometimes that person is gonna want to go fast. Simple as that.

Ippokrates

Kwoung wrote: »

Simple fix would be take the opposite approach, instead of pulling group members forward who may not be ready, haven't clicked their quest mob, or whatever. Simply block engaging bosses until your entire group is in range and ready. This would put the onus of wanting to "speed run" on the person wanting to do it, he will have to find a speed run group, instead of forcing everyone else who may not want that to keep up with him.

Could be as simple as the hard mode switch, click thing by boss, everyone has to answer ready, and until then the boss can't be engaged. Seems a far more reasonable approach that would actually "fix" the issue, than yanking folks forward who may not be ready.

There is too many DC to make it work. People would start to massively vote kicking disconnected and probably slower players.

Kwoung

Ippokrates wrote: »

Kwoung wrote: »

Simple fix would be take the opposite approach, instead of pulling group members forward who may not be ready, haven't clicked their quest mob, or whatever. Simply block engaging bosses until your entire group is in range and ready. This would put the onus of wanting to "speed run" on the person wanting to do it, he will have to find a speed run group, instead of forcing everyone else who may not want that to keep up with him.

Could be as simple as the hard mode switch, click thing by boss, everyone has to answer ready, and until then the boss can't be engaged. Seems a far more reasonable approach that would actually "fix" the issue, than yanking folks forward who may not be ready.

There is too many DC to make it work. People would start to massively vote kicking disconnected and probably slower players.

Can't speak to getting DCed, because honestly, that shouldn't be enough of a thing to even take into consideration (please note I said shouldn't), but if someone was being a troll and purposefully holding the group up, beyond clicking quests mobs, they deserve to be kicked. If they wanted story mode, they should have done it with friends.

redspecter23

Kwoung wrote: »

Ippokrates wrote: »

Kwoung wrote: »

Simple fix would be take the opposite approach, instead of pulling group members forward who may not be ready, haven't clicked their quest mob, or whatever. Simply block engaging bosses until your entire group is in range and ready. This would put the onus of wanting to "speed run" on the person wanting to do it, he will have to find a speed run group, instead of forcing everyone else who may not want that to keep up with him.

Could be as simple as the hard mode switch, click thing by boss, everyone has to answer ready, and until then the boss can't be engaged. Seems a far more reasonable approach that would actually "fix" the issue, than yanking folks forward who may not be ready.

There is too many DC to make it work. People would start to massively vote kicking disconnected and probably slower players.

Can't speak to getting DCed, because honestly, that shouldn't be enough of a thing to even take into consideration (please note I said shouldn't), but if someone was being a troll and purposefully holding the group up, beyond clicking quests mobs, they deserve to be kicked. If they wanted story mode, they should have done it with friends.

That is the other side which isn't quite as vocal here, but just as legitimate. There can be players that are extremely slow compared to the rest of the group. They are also in a way being inconsiderate of the needs of the group as a whole. If three people go at one pace and the 4th is either too fast or too slow, they are the one at risk of being kicked.

Dungeons are a social situation and it can be beneficial to try to play the way the majority are playing even if you might not completely agree that it's your style.