"Joining Encounter In Progress" = VERY VERY VERY BAD IDEA

Kwoung

Troodon80 wrote: »

Kwoung wrote: »

Yes, but that unfortunately doesn't solve the issue that ZOS is basically tossing people with conflicting playstyles / goals together in content... and expecting it to be fun for everyone involved.

I mean, yeah, people do as people do. You put a few random people into a house and tell them to get on with it... you're probably going to get some disagreements and conflicting personalities. This isn't something ZOS needs to "solve." If you want to dictate who gets into your group, that's what pre-made groups are for. That applies to both sides of the argument.

Yes, it does apply to both sides. And apparently ZOS seems to agree with you that they do not need to "solve it", even though they could, very easily, in any number of different ways.

old_scopie1945

jle30303 wrote: »

The reason it is a bad idea, is that being pulled *forwards* in a dungeon, for players who are behind a rusher because they're trying to actually deal with the dungeon's quest, means that it breaks the quest line and prevents them gaining the skill point from that dungeon.

When the rusher then dies because they couldn't handle it, it only serves them right, but even then, if a new person joins the dungeon and tries to get forward to where the rest of the team are, (a) they may have already missed one or more bosses and (b) they still have to fight, alone, through all the trash that was previously skipped BY PEOPLE WHO DID NOT EVEN WANT TO SKIP IT.

If some players are to be pulled to the location of other players in a dungeon, it must be the FRONT player that is pulled BACKWARDS.

If you don't like that: Learn to kill as you go, so that other players in the team can actually keep up.

I agree 100%

Elsonso

Amottica wrote: »

Since you edited out the situation I noted that provided context I must ask if you are suggesting it is respectful for the speedrunner, who spawn into the dungeon before the rest (as some players load faster than others), and starts running through the dungeon while ignoring requests to hold up so a group member can pick up the quest?

I consider that very disrespectful and at some point that becomes willful disregard for everyone else. So I agree, that is not griefing, it is much worse.

I often edit things down to get rid of the quote clutter. I think my reply addresses your question, though.

Xebov wrote: »

Elsonso wrote: »

That is fine, except that they could still leave the entry door unlocked so that stragglers could get in without needing to be teleported in. The door could be locked as an exit door.

You cant use it while in combat, so its a bit problematic going through with that idea.

I have to think that fixing _that_ problem would be better than yanking everyone forward.

Xebov

Elsonso wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

Since you edited out the situation I noted that provided context I must ask if you are suggesting it is respectful for the speedrunner, who spawn into the dungeon before the rest (as some players load faster than others), and starts running through the dungeon while ignoring requests to hold up so a group member can pick up the quest?

I consider that very disrespectful and at some point that becomes willful disregard for everyone else. So I agree, that is not griefing, it is much worse.

I often edit things down to get rid of the quote clutter. I think my reply addresses your question, though.

Xebov wrote: »

Elsonso wrote: »

That is fine, except that they could still leave the entry door unlocked so that stragglers could get in without needing to be teleported in. The door could be locked as an exit door.

You cant use it while in combat, so its a bit problematic going through with that idea.

I have to think that fixing _that_ problem would be better than yanking everyone forward.

Thats not a problem to fix. Thats a mechanic that forces players to kill trash groups and bosses in order to progress.

Elsonso

Xebov wrote: »

Elsonso wrote: »

Xebov wrote: »

Elsonso wrote: »

That is fine, except that they could still leave the entry door unlocked so that stragglers could get in without needing to be teleported in. The door could be locked as an exit door.

You cant use it while in combat, so its a bit problematic going through with that idea.

I have to think that fixing _that_ problem would be better than yanking everyone forward.

Thats not a problem to fix. Thats a mechanic that forces players to kill trash groups and bosses in order to progress.

It sort of is a problem to fix. The first person through the door was obviously not in combat, so one can assume that the bosses and trash mobs were cleared. There are a couple different ways to handle the locked door after that. One is to not allow the next fight until everyone is through, but a better one would be to simply remove the obstacle that blocks passage after the first person goes through. Use a gating mechanism other than a door that locks when in combat.

It just seems to me that ZOS implemented something that is not the best solution to the problem of a locked door blocking a dungeon party member. They implemented one that works, and covers other scenarios, but I feel they could have done better on this particular problem.

A side effect of that better solution would be that players are not unceremoniously yanked forward.

SeaGtGruff

Xebov wrote: »

redspecter23 wrote: »

For sure. I was going for a bit of sarcasm in the statement, but it's clear that the new system is being abused by some players. It was clear that would happen as soon as it was announced.

How is it abused? Its working exactly as intended and pulls the group together. This "feature" already was part of some dungeons from their release. The only new thing about it is that it gets added to other dungeons. For the dungeons where it was already existing i never saw a complaint that its bad.

If the feature was already existing but you never saw a complaint about it, could it be that the speedrunners who are abusing the Group Finder to farm TCs on multiple characters every day and ignoring the rest of the group's requests to slow down have been abandoning the DLC(?) dungeons where it was already implemented as soon as they saw they hadn't been put into an easy base-game dungeon?

LalMirchi

I personally would like a mechanism like this for every boss in grouped encounters.

Whiskey_JG

jle30303 wrote: »

The reason it is a bad idea, is that being pulled *forwards* in a dungeon, for players who are behind a rusher because they're trying to actually deal with the dungeon's quest, means that it breaks the quest line and prevents them gaining the skill point from that dungeon.

When the rusher then dies because they couldn't handle it, it only serves them right, but even then, if a new person joins the dungeon and tries to get forward to where the rest of the team are, (a) they may have already missed one or more bosses and (b) they still have to fight, alone, through all the trash that was previously skipped BY PEOPLE WHO DID NOT EVEN WANT TO SKIP IT.

If some players are to be pulled to the location of other players in a dungeon, it must be the FRONT player that is pulled BACKWARDS.

If you don't like that: Learn to kill as you go, so that other players in the team can actually keep up.

I sympathize with the issue you are saying. But the problem here is not the "joining encounter" thing, its players being selfish. Its unreasonable to pin this problem on ZoS because there are more instances where this feature is very useful.

In such cases either leave the dungeon or kick the selfish player. I tend to avoid random people and run dungeons with friends. Avoids this issue.

LashanW

Love this feature!

Farm runs can be made so much quicker with it. Basically filled the stickerbook for Black Drake Villa today. Less than 10 minutes per normal run (with a premade group that was a pug at first).

renne

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Group Finder is primarily for people who can't make a premade. So telling them to just go make a premade is not a valid solution to group finder issues.

Why can't they though?

Is it because they actually "can't" (which, again, many, many options suggested on how they can and in my own comment, too!) or is it because actually, they don't want to put in the effort, because every single time I've seen someone give excuses on why they "can't" it's been a case of not wanting to even try.

spartaxoxo

renne wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Group Finder is primarily for people who can't make a premade. So telling them to just go make a premade is not a valid solution to group finder issues.

Why can't they though?

Is it because they actually "can't" (which, again, many, many options suggested on how they can and in my own comment, too!) or is it because actually, they don't want to put in the effort, because every single time I've seen someone give excuses on why they "can't" it's been a case of not wanting to even try.

Because the schedule isn't right, their guilds ignored them, etc etc.

This is why the group finder exists. If you make the claim it's invalid to not be able form a premade at the drop of a hat then they might as well delete the group finder entirely and not give anyone any rewards.

Because the fact of the matter is that is the sole reason for group finders existence. It is not to give you transmutes for no reasons. It's explicitly there to form groups when premades aren't avaialble at that time. That is the purpose of group finder in this and pretty every game with one. Because the fact of the matter is that it's common for people to not be able to form one for a variety of reasons at the same time they want to do a dungeon.

Since group finder is apparently a buggy tool that doesn't actually serves it's purpose, might as well delete it.

madrab73

spartaxoxo wrote: »

renne wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Group Finder is primarily for people who can't make a premade. So telling them to just go make a premade is not a valid solution to group finder issues.

Why can't they though?

Is it because they actually "can't" (which, again, many, many options suggested on how they can and in my own comment, too!) or is it because actually, they don't want to put in the effort, because every single time I've seen someone give excuses on why they "can't" it's been a case of not wanting to even try.

Because the schedule isn't right, their guilds ignored them, etc etc.

This is why the group finder exists. If you make the claim it's invalid to not be able form a premade at the drop of a hat then they might as well delete the group finder entirely and not give anyone any rewards.

Because the fact of the matter is that is the sole reason for group finders existence. It is not to give you transmutes for no reasons. It's explicitly there to form groups when premades aren't avaialble at that time. That is the purpose of group finder in this and pretty every game with one. Because the fact of the matter is that it's common for people to not be able to form one for a variety of reasons at the same time they want to do a dungeon.

Since group finder is apparently a buggy tool that doesn't actually serves it's purpose, might as well delete it.

There are lots of guilds, they should join one suitable. Very little point of being in one where you are online while everyone else isn't.

madrab73

Can we add this for evry boss please? The change to Wayrest 1 is awesome.

spartaxoxo

madrab73 wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

renne wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Group Finder is primarily for people who can't make a premade. So telling them to just go make a premade is not a valid solution to group finder issues.

Why can't they though?

Is it because they actually "can't" (which, again, many, many options suggested on how they can and in my own comment, too!) or is it because actually, they don't want to put in the effort, because every single time I've seen someone give excuses on why they "can't" it's been a case of not wanting to even try.

Because the schedule isn't right, their guilds ignored them, etc etc.

This is why the group finder exists. If you make the claim it's invalid to not be able form a premade at the drop of a hat then they might as well delete the group finder entirely and not give anyone any rewards.

Because the fact of the matter is that is the sole reason for group finders existence. It is not to give you transmutes for no reasons. It's explicitly there to form groups when premades aren't avaialble at that time. That is the purpose of group finder in this and pretty every game with one. Because the fact of the matter is that it's common for people to not be able to form one for a variety of reasons at the same time they want to do a dungeon.

Since group finder is apparently a buggy tool that doesn't actually serves it's purpose, might as well delete it.

There are lots of guilds, they should join one suitable. Very little point of being in one where you are online while everyone else isn't.

Who said they weren't online? Sometimes they are doing that trial run you weren't signed up for or whatever. Sometimes they are just busy.

This is the reality of online multiplayer and that's why most of them have group finders. This is the entire reason it exists. You wouldn't be getting your transmutes at all without it.

newtinmpls

kargen27 wrote: »

I think for daily rewards you shouldn't get the reward unless everything hostile in the dungeon is dead. No skipping a skeever stuck back in a corner somewhere. Everything dies or you didn't finish the objective.

I so love this idea

kargen27 wrote: »

That stops the problem when it comes to players just wanting the daily rewards on multiple characters.

Speaking as someone who already prefers to do thorough runs with multiple players - no. No it really doesn't

kargen27 wrote: »

Bit trickier stopping the players that only want the last boss for a gear drop. That would require a rework so that the boss is isolated until all other bosses and mini bosses are dead.

I hate the jerks who do this crap so much I would like to see ... if someone kills the final boss alone in a group, that they instantly lose every set bit gained from the run and get NO undaunted reward letter. Heck maybe a note from Maj saying something sarcastic.

FlopsyPrince

I know from personal experience that running Fungal Grotto I for the quest can be foolish in the upcoming Undaunted event.

I was in the whole time and got caught in those piles of mobs. I also missed the final boss kill for the quest because I was so far away. I tried to catch up, but it was not possible.

LalMirchi

madrab73 wrote: »

Can we add this for evry boss please? The change to Wayrest 1 is awesome.

Yes please! Wouldn't this solve the rushers and laggers "problem". Every group event should have this upgrade.

Lauranae

reading the whole thread it seems you forget something.

Both side have valid arguments, but ZOS is not responsible for player behavior.

Saying that the one who need the quest have to say it, yes its right, but you can not ask someone with a mind set to run fast to read the chat.

I do not count how may times i met that kind of people, leaving me at the end with my quest not done because after informing i was on quest, still go on running and yell a ohhh i am sorry at the end, did not saw that

So if you want this to work, why the person who want to run do not inform the people that it is a run fast instance ? some would leave and requeue, as i do now when i see i am not listened. And the risk for the runner is finally to be alone and kicked by the instance itself.

This is a two side respect. I totally understand that sometimes who has less time, or know too well the dungeon want this to be done fast. But i totally understand too that not everyone knows the instance, did the quest, or is able to run as fast as the runner (less reflex, disabled, stressed, or as for me very old)

Or do you think that i have not my place on the game ? Because when you run in front, this is what i feel.

Personally the first thing i do entering an instance is to say : Hello, then if i need the quest, i say : ON quest please

And if i dont need the quest i say Hello, and ask : anyone on quest ? if the answer is yes, i add : say if you need to speak

and remind them a the end to speak to the npc.

Why ? simple respect. My time is valuable but theirs too, and above my time, fun and pleasure to help. And ZOS has no responsability in this.

KhajiitLivesMatter

jle30303 wrote: »

The reason it is a bad idea, is that being pulled *forwards* in a dungeon, for players who are behind a rusher because they're trying to actually deal with the dungeon's quest, means that it breaks the quest line and prevents them gaining the skill point from that dungeon.

When the rusher then dies because they couldn't handle it, it only serves them right, but even then, if a new person joins the dungeon and tries to get forward to where the rest of the team are, (a) they may have already missed one or more bosses and (b) they still have to fight, alone, through all the trash that was previously skipped BY PEOPLE WHO DID NOT EVEN WANT TO SKIP IT.

If some players are to be pulled to the location of other players in a dungeon, it must be the FRONT player that is pulled BACKWARDS.

If you don't like that: Learn to kill as you go, so that other players in the team can actually keep up.

the feature was implementet cause random noobs crying in forum that the boss is dead before they arive

now they fix ne problem and ur still mad?
whatever

Lauranae

KhajiitLivesMatter wrote: »

jle30303 wrote: »

the feature was implementet cause random noobs crying in forum that the boss is dead before they arive

now they fix ne problem and ur still mad?
whatever

You seem to be part of those random elitist.

renne

spartaxoxo wrote: »

renne wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Group Finder is primarily for people who can't make a premade. So telling them to just go make a premade is not a valid solution to group finder issues.

Why can't they though?

Is it because they actually "can't" (which, again, many, many options suggested on how they can and in my own comment, too!) or is it because actually, they don't want to put in the effort, because every single time I've seen someone give excuses on why they "can't" it's been a case of not wanting to even try.

Because the schedule isn't right, their guilds ignored them, etc etc.

This is why the group finder exists. If you make the claim it's invalid to not be able form a premade at the drop of a hat then they might as well delete the group finder entirely and not give anyone any rewards.

Because the fact of the matter is that is the sole reason for group finders existence. It is not to give you transmutes for no reasons. It's explicitly there to form groups when premades aren't avaialble at that time. That is the purpose of group finder in this and pretty every game with one. Because the fact of the matter is that it's common for people to not be able to form one for a variety of reasons at the same time they want to do a dungeon.

Since group finder is apparently a buggy tool that doesn't actually serves it's purpose, might as well delete it.

I've never once claimed the GF is invalid. Infact - and you LITERALLY quoted this the first time - I said the easiest way of dealing with it for everyone is to tell the ppl in the group you have the quest???

But the excuse of schedule, guilds, etc is still that - an excuse for not making the effort if they're that desperate to not have people rushing in the GF groups. There is literally no timezone where no one is on - I know, I play in Australia. There are guilds available on all timezones with lots and lots of people.

All I am seeing is people who don't even want to put the effort of putting "doing quest" in the chat box - they just want everyone else to cater to them.

spartaxoxo

renne wrote: »

But the excuse of schedule, guilds, etc is still that - an excuse for not making the effort if they're that desperate to not have people rushing in the GF groups. There is literally no timezone where no one is on - I know, I play in Australia. There are guilds available on all timezones with lots and lots of people.

Nobody in this game has 24/7 on demand access to their guildmates. That some guild you're not in somewhere would have been willing to run it with you then is completely irrelevant.

When it comes down to it, making a premade is NOT a valid fix for issues with the guild finder. For one, it's explicitly created because of the fact that nobody has 24/7 on demand access to their guild mates and friends, and will sometimes find themselves in a position where they just wouldn't be running the dungeon if it weren't for guild finder.

The other reason is that avoiding a problem and leaving it to be someone else's problem does not solve a problem.

Simply put, premades do not fix issues within guildfinder. There are number of fixes that can be implemented like "joining encounter" that do.

Brenticus12

Fazuszek wrote: »

Hmmm... all those ,,carry'' sellers got mad, coz now they cant sell their carrys? XDDD Yep, one of the positive things, is that i dont see anymore in zone chat ,,want to sell bla bla all titles bla bla'' carry sellers.

Forget about it. U will have to develop skills and get something urself LOL.

And yeah, this option is a very good change. Questing is not a problem, just move with normal speed, unless u want to look on every rock in dung, then i advise u, to play with ir friends.

Oh don't worry about the carry market. It's still going strong. Most carry requests are for gear runs anyway so that's a steady supply of gold and this change has literally no effect on that.

The change does effect some dungeons and trial trifecta/achievement carries though but we've just doubled the prices on those achievements now. A little worse for both the seller and the buyer, but still very much a thing available to players.

Brenticus12

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

I know from personal experience that running Fungal Grotto I for the quest can be foolish in the upcoming Undaunted event.

I was in the whole time and got caught in those piles of mobs. I also missed the final boss kill for the quest because I was so far away. I tried to catch up, but it was not possible.

So what you're saying is that the "joining encounter in progress" feature would actually help you in this case lmao

Kiyakotari

Dragonlord573 wrote: »

The only dungeon you actually have to do the quest in is Vaults of Madness.

Tempest Island

Kiyakotari

Dragonlord573 wrote: »

The only dungeon you actually have to do the quest in is Vaults of Madness.

City of Ash

Jazraena

There will always be constellations to prevent premades, there will always be people with differing goals for a dungeon. The only solid approach is to make certain this misalignment is as rare as possible and to make certain those following one goal cannot prevent the others from attaining their goals.

Some simple quest objective changes and minor geometry redesign can easily solve the vast majority of cases. Another easy win is making certain every player in a dungeon gets credit for any defeated enemy, so even if someone does charge ahead and solo-kill an endboss after all, you're at least not loosing out on completion.

You'll still have some annoying corner cases most likely, but the worst should be easy to handle.

James-Wayne

colossalvoids wrote: »

Or just disable this feature in normal difficulty dungeons if they're accessed via "Random" option in Dungeon Finder tool solely allowing others to finally utilise this long awaited feature already present in all recent dlc content.

Agreed. This is all that is needed as we know the system was changed because of people paying for specific dungeon clears.

zaria

It would solve some issues like some getting stuck behind the second door in Wayrest sewer. ICP also has closing doors who can lock some out of the fight.

Jaimeh

For premade groups I think it's a convenient feature, because if someone disconnects and returns, they don't have to run all the way back to the boss (and in some trials it takes a bit), they'll just tell the group to start the fight and they'll get pulled in. Also for some farms runs, where you want to go fast and maybe skip some trash packs, you can sneak past them, reach the boss, and pull the rest of the group in. When you are running something like BDV for the 50th time, it comes in handy. However, I can see how this is problematic for PUGs, since not everyone is there for the same purpose, some have the quest, some are farming gear or xp, or doing a random normal... and even though a player could ask the others to stay a bit after the end so they could go kill the skipped mobs, or search for chests, etc., it's still troublesome, even more so if they missed a quest objective and are not able to complete it. Since the feature exists, I think it necessitates going in with a premade group, if you are doing the quest, or at least let the group know from the start, so they don't pull bosses way ahead.