"Joining Encounter In Progress" = VERY VERY VERY BAD IDEA

Amottica

A better, and very effective course of action would have been to make it impossible ot start the boss encounter without all members present. This would mean the person who rushed ahead would have to wait for the rest of the group to catch up.

It would both end a situation where one person could control the speed of the run as they can now. It would also allow players who were on the quest to complete conversations required for the quest.

spartaxoxo

Amottica wrote: »

A better, and very effective course of action would have been to make it impossible ot start the boss encounter without all members present. This would mean the person who rushed ahead would have to wait for the rest of the group to catch up.

It would both end a situation where one person could control the speed of the run as they can now. It would also allow players who were on the quest to complete conversations required for the quest.

That just allows duo and stop the dungeon from being completed. Fast may annoy some people but this solution doesn't allow someone make you miss your drops or boss kills.

Cirantille

It also gets stuck.
As you can see we killed the boss here but she is still up and keeps us in combat.
No matter how many times we tried to advance it kept saying "Join progress" and pulled us back to the dead boss

mocap

"Joining Encounter In Progress" - called "backfill" for shorten. Just in case )
Oki in many DLC, since there are mostly "kill last boss" quest. Not so in vanilla.

Also you can ask to kick you, so dungeon finder cooldown (mistakenly called by many players "deserter penalty") will reset immediately. Though this can lead to some drama&lulz in chat xd

Initiate self kick procedure can kinda resolve this problem, however it must be marked on the promt screen that guy initiate excactly self kick.

LyraEmber

If you just keep up with your tank, I dont see what the issue is. ZOS's solution by adding this new jump to encounter is awesome. It will save so many people stuck behind doors.

Xebov

redspecter23 wrote: »

Xebov wrote: »

redspecter23 wrote: »

It allows for easier griefing. Players that are on quest objectives or are a bit slower. It's not a problem in all situations but when a group comes together in which the fast players are on the very fast end and the slow players are on the very slow end, this can destroy the enjoyment of the slower players. They are basically just being dragged from encounter to encounter.

This has nothing to do with griefing. Its 2 players having different goals and playstyles ending up in the same place while following their goals.

The main issue with players doing their quest is that the majority does not communicate it in the group chat and instead expect that everyone magically knows it.

When 2 different playstyles clash, both sides are being grieved. In this situation, the slower players have an out by voting to kick. The faster players can run as fast as they want and risk getting kicked.

It's the nature of random groups. Sometimes players will have different playstyles. There is no right or wrong, just behavior that can get you kicked in any given group.

There is also the option of just not using the group finder and running with friends and guildmates. That way, neither side feels grieved ideally. It should be a more enjoyable run for all.

The point is that griefing is subjective. Anyone can feel they have been grieved. It may not even necessarily be against any rules, which is what we have here. Running really fast through a dungeon, not caring about anyone else is not inherently an actionable offense. It's inconsiderate potentially and that's up to any given individual to decide if they care about that or not. In extreme situations anything can be considered actionable griefing when reported to ZOS. That's up for them to decide.

Griefing requires intention. If different playstyles clash and each player follows his noone has intention to grief the other, they simply dont care about each other.

LordRukia

I love it. Sometimes you're the only one who can't go through a stupid ass door..

orgin_stadia

I genuinely love this new feature! Can't wait for them to add it to all dungeons.

Now also make a separate rnd queue for those who want to do quests or to go slow and we're all fine.

tim77

it's also amazing how many people need the quest. i think back in the days on my tank i had the last 50 runs not a single group, where noone needed the quest and so no chance to finish it quickly.
One of the reasons i completely stopped queueing with my tank. Dont get me wrong, i remember how it was when i was new in a dungeon, so i took time and lets them slowly do the quest and listening without being toxic at all and also explained mechanics if it was needed, ...but deep in my inside it was annoying to get in 50 random-normal runs like 45 runs with 3 new lvl 20 chars all needing the quest.
I dont want to mess up their experience but i would be really happy to get some of those runner everybody complaing in here, and it messed up my experience in a strange way. I dont know a solution to this, but i stopped running normals because it was less and less fun each run.

Sarannah

I would love a joining-encounter-in-progress, as long as ZOS makes it so encounters cannot be started with less than 3 players and bosses can't be skipped/ran by.

As a bonus I would also love it if joining-encounter-in-progress, at the same time, ports in all the skipped trash mobs as well.

Indigogo

What we need now is for the skill point to be separated from the quest. Have it be like a public dungeon where killing the end boss grants the skill point.

I'd never do a quest on a new toon again.
Imagine not having to wait for npcs in VoM?! The dream.

Fazuszek

Hmmm... all those ,,carry'' sellers got mad, coz now they cant sell their carrys? XDDD Yep, one of the positive things, is that i dont see anymore in zone chat ,,want to sell bla bla all titles bla bla'' carry sellers.

Forget about it. U will have to develop skills and get something urself LOL.

And yeah, this option is a very good change. Questing is not a problem, just move with normal speed, unless u want to look on every rock in dung, then i advise u, to play with ir friends.

IsharaMeradin

All I know is that this feature helped one of my characters complete a dungeon. I had solo'd a dungeon all the way up to the final boss and couldn't continue on my own. Asked guild for help. Got the help. But while one asked me a question in chat, another ran in to start the fight. I got my reply out beforehand but the doors closed shut in my face. If it weren't for the new pull forward feature, I'd have been stuck on the opposite side of the door unable to get any hits in on the boss.

So there are legitimate times that this is useful and needed.

le_spy

This feature sucks for casuals trying to get their achievements and trifectas complete, it has been really nice to have carry buyers just afk in lobby while 2-3 others just clear the dungeon and take the gold for the sold trifecta.

For all the people thinking tirfecta carries won't happen anymore, of course they will, we'll just charge you double. LOL

kojou

Us players could solve this ourselves with a little dungeon etiquette and understanding.

1. Try asking the player to slow down because you are doing the quest

Even if I am in a hurry to blast through the dungeon and get my random daily reward, I will slow down and let someone interact with the NPC before killing the next boss. A lot of times I will even look to see if someone is going to the quest giver's spot on dungeons where there are talking cut scenes that we potentially have to wait for, but I wouldn't expect that from most players...

2. Agree if you are skipping the trash or not

If you are going to skip trash to the boss, tell everyone that is what you want to do. If someone doesn't want to then be a nice guy/girl and kill all the trash. If someone is skipping to the boss and you don't want them to then ask nicely for them to stop.

3. If you do this and a player is still running through and ignoring your requests...

Talk to the other 3 players. Agree to drop group and reform, or kick the player out of the group.

I think you would be surprised at how many players aren't intentionally being rude and will actually help make your dungeon experience a little better with some communication. With some communication you might even make some like minded friends that you can add to your friend's list and pick up and run dungeons with later and even get in Discord and {gasp} talk to each other.

Several of the in game friends I have I made running dungeons together. I even make a note on my friend list when I find someone that is a particularly decent tank, those are worth their weight in gold.

Amottica

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

A better, and very effective course of action would have been to make it impossible ot start the boss encounter without all members present. This would mean the person who rushed ahead would have to wait for the rest of the group to catch up.

It would both end a situation where one person could control the speed of the run as they can now. It would also allow players who were on the quest to complete conversations required for the quest.

That just allows duo and stop the dungeon from being completed. Fast may annoy some people but this solution doesn't allow someone make you miss your drops or boss kills.

I do not think we should concern ourselves with an extremely unlikely outcome.

Elsonso

LordRukia wrote: »

I love it. Sometimes you're the only one who can't go through a stupid ass door..

Honestly, I consider that to just be poor design choices. The fast-forward saving people locked behind the door is just hiding it.

Larcomar

After doing a few RNDs this am, I'm going to have to agree that adding "join encounter in progress" to the basegame dungeons has significantly increased the problem with speed runners. Every single dungeon I played, one of the "team" - usually the "healer" - just took off and absolutely sprinted though the dungeon.

If I'm honest, it didn't really feel like we were doing the dungeon - people were just getting sucked forwards, bypassing almost all of the trash mobs and, quite often - where they weren't essential for progress - the mini bosses. All it takes is one person to reach the next boss and everyone's just pulled forwards whether they like it or not.

I doubt that's an exploit - people have been skipping in fg1 etc for ever. But I didn't really feel like I'd earned my ten transmutes. And if Im honest, it wasn't really fun trying to keep up in heavy armor. Zos might as well just give out transmutes for sprinting 300 yards and killing a WB at this point. And award the skill pt for entering the dungeon.

That said, while I do wonder if this is working as intended, I really don't understand some of the outrage / demands for ZOS to step in etc.

Group need to police themselves. If it's one guy charging ahead and ruining it for everyone else, use the vote kick function. It's what it's there for.

If the rest of the group won't kick, then I fear you need to either keep up - or find another group. They have just as much right to play their way as you do, and if they want to speed run...

Personally, in future, I'm just going to wait at the door, let the guy in medium with ROTWH on run on ahead, and just get ported to the boss for the final fight....

Fazuszek

le_spy wrote: »

This feature sucks for casuals trying to get their achievements and trifectas complete, it has been really nice to have carry buyers just afk in lobby while 2-3 others just clear the dungeon and take the gold for the sold trifecta.

For all the people thinking tirfecta carries won't happen anymore, of course they will, we'll just charge you double. LOL

Nope, coz u need ,,no death'' - and typical causual Joe, who pays for carry, cant even get no death on vet banished cells XD. They will get TP to boss fight and death in sec.

And if someone is capable to get no death... he dont needs to pay XD

Troodon80

Xebov wrote: »

Griefing requires intention. If different playstyles clash and each player follows his noone has intention to grief the other, they simply dont care about each other.

I was actually going to post about this in another topic where someone mentioned about intentional griefing and trying to report a speedrunner as such. My only thought there is "unless you're a mind reader or the person has actually admitted to griefing, there is no way to prove it."

Basically all it boils down to is someone being inconsiderate. But that works both ways and people don't seem to realise this. Or care, perhaps (which in and of itself is being inconsiderate). If people are going to report speed runners for being inconsiderate (they call it "griefing") then I hope the people who are slow don't mind being reported for the same behaviour, i.e. being inconsiderate of someone elses' time, aka "griefing." People are throwing around "griefing" for any behaviour they don't like or don't agree with. Surely people can see how absurd this is on both sides, right?

Facefister

I greet this. I hope all my random normals begin at the last boss so it takes like 30 seconds to get my reward.

Kwoung

Troodon80 wrote: »

Xebov wrote: »

Griefing requires intention. If different playstyles clash and each player follows his noone has intention to grief the other, they simply dont care about each other.

I was actually going to post about this in another topic where someone mentioned about intentional griefing and trying to report a speedrunner as such. My only thought there is "unless you're a mind reader or the person has actually admitted to griefing, there is no way to prove it."

Basically all it boils down to is someone being inconsiderate. But that works both ways and people don't seem to realise this. Or care, perhaps (which in and of itself is being inconsiderate). If people are going to report speed runners for being inconsiderate (they call it "griefing") then I hope the people who are slow don't mind being reported for the same behaviour, i.e. being inconsiderate of someone elses' time, aka "griefing." People are throwing around "griefing" for any behaviour they don't like or don't agree with. Surely people can see how absurd this is on both sides, right?

Yes, but that unfortunately doesn't solve the issue that ZOS is basically tossing people with conflicting playstyles / goals together in content... and expecting it to be fun for everyone involved.

spartaxoxo

Amottica wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

A better, and very effective course of action would have been to make it impossible ot start the boss encounter without all members present. This would mean the person who rushed ahead would have to wait for the rest of the group to catch up.

It would both end a situation where one person could control the speed of the run as they can now. It would also allow players who were on the quest to complete conversations required for the quest.

That just allows duo and stop the dungeon from being completed. Fast may annoy some people but this solution doesn't allow someone make you miss your drops or boss kills.

I do not think we should concern ourselves with an extremely unlikely outcome.

It's not unlikely. This is why many games that don't it. Because griefers use any tool they can. I guess they could put a countdown timer, that's a solution to that some games do. But I get the feeling people wouldn't be happy with that either.

zaria

Xebov wrote: »

redspecter23 wrote: »

For sure. I was going for a bit of sarcasm in the statement, but it's clear that the new system is being abused by some players. It was clear that would happen as soon as it was announced.

How is it abused? Its working exactly as intended and pulls the group together. This "feature" already was part of some dungeons from their release. The only new thing about it is that it gets added to other dungeons. For the dungeons where it was already existing i never saw a complaint that its bad.

This, note if the others run ahead and kill the last boss without you the quest will usually fail anyway.
I say it will probably make it easier to complete quests as you do not need to run and reach next boss before its killed.
Now in some of the lower tire dungeons bosses can be very close together like banished cell, here the trash is also weakest so its short time between boss fights. In DLC dungeons this is less of an problem, bosses is farther from each other and trash more trash with more health so time between boss fights are much longer.

LyraEmber

If youre not with the tank, youve fallen behind and need to catch up.

If you fail to do so, and miss loot/credit etc, thats your fault.

Amottica

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

A better, and very effective course of action would have been to make it impossible ot start the boss encounter without all members present. This would mean the person who rushed ahead would have to wait for the rest of the group to catch up.

It would both end a situation where one person could control the speed of the run as they can now. It would also allow players who were on the quest to complete conversations required for the quest.

That just allows duo and stop the dungeon from being completed. Fast may annoy some people but this solution doesn't allow someone make you miss your drops or boss kills.

I do not think we should concern ourselves with an extremely unlikely outcome.

It's not unlikely. This is why many games that don't it. Because griefers use any tool they can. I guess they could put a countdown timer, that's a solution to that some games do. But I get the feeling people wouldn't be happy with that either.

I have never seen half a group refuse to progress on a dungeon in over a decade of online gaming. It is extremely rare.

Heck, with the many threads complaining about GF groups we have seen in these forums I have Not seen one which demonstrates what I have said.

Mandragora

Why not alter the quests? like instead of "clear all mobs around" in Tempest island it would be without it - just start the quest.
Instead of "wait until they finish their speach" in Vault of madness it would be with prompt and talking after that.
Frostvault is the worst - you have to kill a boss you cannot kill solo. There could be just soloable NPCs? Or atleast some loot, I don't know. You still need 2 people for a dung with companions and because it is very slow with them, nobody is willing to help with that. It is just easier to retry and wait for someone willing to help you.

Troodon80

Kwoung wrote: »

Yes, but that unfortunately doesn't solve the issue that ZOS is basically tossing people with conflicting playstyles / goals together in content... and expecting it to be fun for everyone involved.

I mean, yeah, people do as people do. You put a few random people into a house and tell them to get on with it... you're probably going to get some disagreements and conflicting personalities. This isn't something ZOS needs to "solve." If you want to dictate who gets into your group, that's what pre-made groups are for. That applies to both sides of the argument.

redspecter23

Xebov wrote: »

redspecter23 wrote: »

Xebov wrote: »

redspecter23 wrote: »

It allows for easier griefing. Players that are on quest objectives or are a bit slower. It's not a problem in all situations but when a group comes together in which the fast players are on the very fast end and the slow players are on the very slow end, this can destroy the enjoyment of the slower players. They are basically just being dragged from encounter to encounter.

This has nothing to do with griefing. Its 2 players having different goals and playstyles ending up in the same place while following their goals.

The main issue with players doing their quest is that the majority does not communicate it in the group chat and instead expect that everyone magically knows it.

When 2 different playstyles clash, both sides are being grieved. In this situation, the slower players have an out by voting to kick. The faster players can run as fast as they want and risk getting kicked.

It's the nature of random groups. Sometimes players will have different playstyles. There is no right or wrong, just behavior that can get you kicked in any given group.

There is also the option of just not using the group finder and running with friends and guildmates. That way, neither side feels grieved ideally. It should be a more enjoyable run for all.

The point is that griefing is subjective. Anyone can feel they have been grieved. It may not even necessarily be against any rules, which is what we have here. Running really fast through a dungeon, not caring about anyone else is not inherently an actionable offense. It's inconsiderate potentially and that's up to any given individual to decide if they care about that or not. In extreme situations anything can be considered actionable griefing when reported to ZOS. That's up for them to decide.

Griefing requires intention. If different playstyles clash and each player follows his noone has intention to grief the other, they simply dont care about each other.

This appears to be where we have differing opinions on the matter. I believe that someone can be grieved or offended even if there is no ill intent behind the action. Someone can do something they believe is helping the group (running forward), but others don't believe that action is beneficial for their preferred playstyle. It may not be actionable griefing. The player likely wouldn't be banned or even officially warned by doing it, but it absolutely can potentially affect the gameplay experience of the other player in a negative way as evidenced in this very thread.

You can certainly argue that the action isn't bannable, but to suggest it isn't harming the gameplay experience of others is just plain wrong. There are examples all over the forums lately.

Facefister

Your definition of "griefing" can be also applied to the people who unnecessarily drag the dungeon tour.