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https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/684716
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https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/684716
"Joining Encounter In Progress" = VERY VERY VERY BAD IDEA
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redspecter23✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Facefister wrote: »Your definition of "griefing" can be also applied to the people who unnecessarily drag the dungeon tour.
It absolutely goes both ways, yes.1 -
DrSlaughtr✭✭✭✭✭
✭In my experience, 99% of the time you put in chat that you're doing the quest, people let you. But yeah there will always be that one dude who won't, so you vote to kick and hope it passes.
Or refuse to participate and hope they kick you so you can requeue.I drink and I stream things.2 -
Xebov✭✭✭✭✭
✭
I was actually going to post about this in another topic where someone mentioned about intentional griefing and trying to report a speedrunner as such. My only thought there is "unless you're a mind reader or the person has actually admitted to griefing, there is no way to prove it."Griefing requires intention. If different playstyles clash and each player follows his noone has intention to grief the other, they simply dont care about each other.
Basically all it boils down to is someone being inconsiderate. But that works both ways and people don't seem to realise this. Or care, perhaps (which in and of itself is being inconsiderate). If people are going to report speed runners for being inconsiderate (they call it "griefing") then I hope the people who are slow don't mind being reported for the same behaviour, i.e. being inconsiderate of someone elses' time, aka "griefing." People are throwing around "griefing" for any behaviour they don't like or don't agree with. Surely people can see how absurd this is on both sides, right?
Yes, but that unfortunately doesn't solve the issue that ZOS is basically tossing people with conflicting playstyles / goals together in content... and expecting it to be fun for everyone involved.
Thats not the problem. The problem is that many players dont understand that the group finder puts random players together for the sole purpose of completing the dungeon, the smallest common goal of the group. That results in some thinks like dailies and farming fitting better than quests or exploration. Instead of understanding this and working with it we are getting selective argumentation where certain things are viewed as bad and other as no problem. The speedrunner is considered bad as well as the fake tank and fake healer. On the other hand fake DDs or ppl that dont bother learning mechanics are considered as not bad. As a result some players think that their time and goals are more important than anyone elses with some complaints getting send to the "make a premade group" corner while other complaints are handled in the "everyone has to play like i want it corner". If the group finder would support quest only groups tomorrow we would see ppl complaining about long queue times and slow groups.0 -
seldomseenkd✭✭✭I have never seen half a group refuse to progress on a dungeon in over a decade of online gaming. It is extremely rare.
Heck, with the many threads complaining about GF groups we have seen in these forums I have Not seen one which demonstrates what I have said.
I agree. It's very rare that players troll other players when a game gives them the opportunity to do so.1 -
renne✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭The whole argument of getting stuck behind doors because someone aggro-ed the boss on the other side has an easier fix make the doors actually open and stay open once someone has gone through, you can't tell me they can't do it when they already have a mix and match of door types in various dungeons already.
I'm not talking about doors like in Wayrest of CoA2, I'm talking about those gates that close when you engage the boss so you have to stay in the boss arena, that if someone accidentally aggroes the boss, the rest of the group gets shut out.0 -
renne✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Hmmm... all those ,,carry'' sellers got mad, coz now they cant sell their carrys? XDDD Yep, one of the positive things, is that i dont see anymore in zone chat ,,want to sell bla bla all titles bla bla'' carry sellers.
Forget about it. U will have to develop skills and get something urself LOL.
And yeah, this option is a very good change. Questing is not a problem, just move with normal speed, unless u want to look on every rock in dung, then i advise u, to play with ir friends.
No one sells carries for random normals, my guy. Carries are organised groups that can clear hard content for titles and skins, and that's not happening through Group Finder.0 -
renne✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭You do all know that if they did make these changes you want - that people can't start the boss until the slowest person arrives, or people get dragged back to where the slowest person is, etc - that all this would result in is the slowpoke getting kicked, right? You know that?3 -
Jeremy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭The solution is to increase the difficulty of dungeons to the point that if you try to run through them you die. They need to bring back support jobs and require Crowd Control to engage large pulls. Because just running through "trash" is a trend on all MMORPGs (not just this one) and it is moronically dumb.Edited by Jeremy on November 11, 2021 9:59PM1 -
Jeremy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭The whole argument of getting stuck behind doors because someone aggro-ed the boss on the other side has an easier fix make the doors actually open and stay open once someone has gone through, you can't tell me they can't do it when they already have a mix and match of door types in various dungeons already.
I'm not talking about doors like in Wayrest of CoA2, I'm talking about those gates that close when you engage the boss so you have to stay in the boss arena, that if someone accidentally aggroes the boss, the rest of the group gets shut out.
I don't know why they add obnoxious doors like that to boss rooms that shut players out if they aren't right behind when they enter. All I can guess is to prevent players from running away? I dunno...0 -
kargen27✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭If youre not with the tank, youve fallen behind and need to catch up.
If you fail to do so, and miss loot/credit etc, thats your fault.
That is a poor attitude. The armada is only as fast as the slowest ship. If you are on a magicka build and don't have skills that help with evasion you find yourself behind the group out of stamina and facing the ball of mobs the tank streaked past.
Just keep up isn't a good answer for most the player base.
Queue times are long as it is so separate queues do not make sense. So I go back to requiring everything to die before the dungeon is complete. If all the adds bosses and mini bosses are not dead then no reward for completing.
And for the players just wanting final boss for the drop obviously they don't care if the dungeon is complete or not. So to combat that the final boss should be locked until all other bosses are down.
If Fungal Grotto it takes longer to show a new player how to climb the bank from the river than it would to just kill all the bosses. Even if it were tons faster I think that shortcut and others should be removed. Best way to do that is require everything die. You want the rewards do the content.and then the parrot said, "must be the water mines green too."2 -
spartaxoxo✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭spartaxoxo wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »A better, and very effective course of action would have been to make it impossible ot start the boss encounter without all members present. This would mean the person who rushed ahead would have to wait for the rest of the group to catch up.
It would both end a situation where one person could control the speed of the run as they can now. It would also allow players who were on the quest to complete conversations required for the quest.
That just allows duo and stop the dungeon from being completed. Fast may annoy some people but this solution doesn't allow someone make you miss your drops or boss kills.
I do not think we should concern ourselves with an extremely unlikely outcome.
It's not unlikely. This is why many games that don't it. Because griefers use any tool they can. I guess they could put a countdown timer, that's a solution to that some games do. But I get the feeling people wouldn't be happy with that either.
I have never seen half a group refuse to progress on a dungeon in over a decade of online gaming. It is extremely rare.
Heck, with the many threads complaining about GF groups we have seen in these forums I have Not seen one which demonstrates what I have said.
And how many of those made you wait for everyone before starting something? It's really not that rare. It's not common per say but it is not rare. Developers didn't add countdown timers in many games that feature that functionality because it's rare.
Why would you see a complaint about that in this game when it doesn't have that feature? Like this game doesn't give you the opportunity to stop everyone from doing a boss so of course you don't see any complaints about afk'ers...Edited by spartaxoxo on November 11, 2021 11:20PM0 -
renne✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭The whole argument of getting stuck behind doors because someone aggro-ed the boss on the other side has an easier fix make the doors actually open and stay open once someone has gone through, you can't tell me they can't do it when they already have a mix and match of door types in various dungeons already.
I'm not talking about doors like in Wayrest of CoA2, I'm talking about those gates that close when you engage the boss so you have to stay in the boss arena, that if someone accidentally aggroes the boss, the rest of the group gets shut out.
I don't know why they add obnoxious doors like that to boss rooms that shut players out if they aren't right behind when they enter. All I can guess is to prevent players from running away? I dunno...
Honestly, I don't know either. Possibly that, possibly also making it so you have to fight the boss in the arena and less chance of just being able to cheese it on a bit of scenery? Who knows.0 -
moleculardrugs✭✭✭✭Maybe there should be an option to disable "join encounter in progress," unless it's like an important important encounter. Like the last boss in Wayrest Sewers I versus her brother who isn't at all that important IMO.
I think the pull could be really beneficial. For example, I joined a random dungeon and it was BDV (Blackdrake Villa). They were basically at the last boss. I did not know they could pull me, so I ran almost 92% of the way there, pass all the mobs people usually skip, just to be pulled in. Wish I had known
but I think it's a useful feature 0 -
Amottica✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭spartaxoxo wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »A better, and very effective course of action would have been to make it impossible ot start the boss encounter without all members present. This would mean the person who rushed ahead would have to wait for the rest of the group to catch up.
It would both end a situation where one person could control the speed of the run as they can now. It would also allow players who were on the quest to complete conversations required for the quest.
That just allows duo and stop the dungeon from being completed. Fast may annoy some people but this solution doesn't allow someone make you miss your drops or boss kills.
I do not think we should concern ourselves with an extremely unlikely outcome.
It's not unlikely. This is why many games that don't it. Because griefers use any tool they can. I guess they could put a countdown timer, that's a solution to that some games do. But I get the feeling people wouldn't be happy with that either.
I have never seen half a group refuse to progress on a dungeon in over a decade of online gaming. It is extremely rare.
Heck, with the many threads complaining about GF groups we have seen in these forums I have Not seen one which demonstrates what I have said.
And how many of those made you wait for everyone before starting something? It's really not that rare. It's not common per say but it is not rare. Developers didn't add countdown timers in many games that feature that functionality because it's rare.
Why would you see a complaint about that in this game when it doesn't have that feature? Like this game doesn't give you the opportunity to stop everyone from doing a boss so of course you don't see any complaints about afk'ers...
Your reply concerned two people preventing the group from completing the dungeon and indicated it was a common occurrence in MMORPGs when players could do such a thing. A single afker is not relevant as they can be vote kicked which solves the problem.
Considering it is near impossible to vote kick someone rushing past mobs to the next boss as the vote to kick disappears into the notifications when in combat, the issue brought up with this thread is much bigger than that afker than is easily dealt with making that afker pretty much a non-issue.1 -
spartaxoxo✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭spartaxoxo wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »A better, and very effective course of action would have been to make it impossible ot start the boss encounter without all members present. This would mean the person who rushed ahead would have to wait for the rest of the group to catch up.
It would both end a situation where one person could control the speed of the run as they can now. It would also allow players who were on the quest to complete conversations required for the quest.
That just allows duo and stop the dungeon from being completed. Fast may annoy some people but this solution doesn't allow someone make you miss your drops or boss kills.
I do not think we should concern ourselves with an extremely unlikely outcome.
It's not unlikely. This is why many games that don't it. Because griefers use any tool they can. I guess they could put a countdown timer, that's a solution to that some games do. But I get the feeling people wouldn't be happy with that either.
I have never seen half a group refuse to progress on a dungeon in over a decade of online gaming. It is extremely rare.
Heck, with the many threads complaining about GF groups we have seen in these forums I have Not seen one which demonstrates what I have said.
And how many of those made you wait for everyone before starting something? It's really not that rare. It's not common per say but it is not rare. Developers didn't add countdown timers in many games that feature that functionality because it's rare.
Why would you see a complaint about that in this game when it doesn't have that feature? Like this game doesn't give you the opportunity to stop everyone from doing a boss so of course you don't see any complaints about afk'ers...
Your reply concerned two people preventing the group from completing the dungeon and indicated it was a common occurrence in MMORPGs when players could do such a thing. A single afker is not relevant as they can be vote kicked which solves the problem.
Considering it is near impossible to vote kick someone rushing past mobs to the next boss as the vote to kick disappears into the notifications when in combat, the issue brought up with this thread is much bigger than that afker than is easily dealt with making that afker pretty much a non-issue.
Yes, because it is not uncommon. People do it all the time in games with either no vote kick or ones that require group consensus by bringing a friend. When you give people tools to grief, they do it. Again, this often solved with a countdown timer in games. But I don't think people would be happy with being given like what 10 to 30 seconds to catchup.Edited by spartaxoxo on November 12, 2021 2:45AM0 -
LyraEmber✭✭✭If youre not with the tank, youve fallen behind and need to catch up.
If you fail to do so, and miss loot/credit etc, thats your fault.
That is a poor attitude. The armada is only as fast as the slowest ship. If you are on a magicka build and don't have skills that help with evasion you find yourself behind the group out of stamina and facing the ball of mobs the tank streaked past.
Just keep up isn't a good answer for most the player base.
Queue times are long as it is so separate queues do not make sense. So I go back to requiring everything to die before the dungeon is complete. If all the adds bosses and mini bosses are not dead then no reward for completing.
And for the players just wanting final boss for the drop obviously they don't care if the dungeon is complete or not. So to combat that the final boss should be locked until all other bosses are down.
If Fungal Grotto it takes longer to show a new player how to climb the bank from the river than it would to just kill all the bosses. Even if it were tons faster I think that shortcut and others should be removed. Best way to do that is require everything die. You want the rewards do the content.
Me and ZOS both disagree.
People will have to keep up or they will be ported to the encounter.1 -
M0ntie✭✭✭✭✭This is one of the best changes ever. Without it, someone can still run ahead and kill the bosses, and then group members are locked out and miss drops. At least with this enhancement, nobody gets left behind. People questing would have their quest fail even without this.3
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Xebov✭✭✭✭✭
✭The whole argument of getting stuck behind doors because someone aggro-ed the boss on the other side has an easier fix make the doors actually open and stay open once someone has gone through, you can't tell me they can't do it when they already have a mix and match of door types in various dungeons already.
I'm not talking about doors like in Wayrest of CoA2, I'm talking about those gates that close when you engage the boss so you have to stay in the boss arena, that if someone accidentally aggroes the boss, the rest of the group gets shut out.
I don't know why they add obnoxious doors like that to boss rooms that shut players out if they aren't right behind when they enter. All I can guess is to prevent players from running away? I dunno...The whole argument of getting stuck behind doors because someone aggro-ed the boss on the other side has an easier fix make the doors actually open and stay open once someone has gone through, you can't tell me they can't do it when they already have a mix and match of door types in various dungeons already.
I'm not talking about doors like in Wayrest of CoA2, I'm talking about those gates that close when you engage the boss so you have to stay in the boss arena, that if someone accidentally aggroes the boss, the rest of the group gets shut out.
I don't know why they add obnoxious doors like that to boss rooms that shut players out if they aren't right behind when they enter. All I can guess is to prevent players from running away? I dunno...
Honestly, I don't know either. Possibly that, possibly also making it so you have to fight the boss in the arena and less chance of just being able to cheese it on a bit of scenery? Who knows.
Thats very simple, because the boss has its arena. Go to Tempest Island, the end boss has no door and a jumping mechanic. If you stay in the doorway or slightly outside and you get jumped at the boss resets because he left his arena. This reset is to prevent getting him stuck or exploiting to kill him. So the only way to solve it becomes doors on the entrance and exit.0 -
Amottica✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭spartaxoxo wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »A better, and very effective course of action would have been to make it impossible ot start the boss encounter without all members present. This would mean the person who rushed ahead would have to wait for the rest of the group to catch up.
It would both end a situation where one person could control the speed of the run as they can now. It would also allow players who were on the quest to complete conversations required for the quest.
That just allows duo and stop the dungeon from being completed. Fast may annoy some people but this solution doesn't allow someone make you miss your drops or boss kills.
I do not think we should concern ourselves with an extremely unlikely outcome.
It's not unlikely. This is why many games that don't it. Because griefers use any tool they can. I guess they could put a countdown timer, that's a solution to that some games do. But I get the feeling people wouldn't be happy with that either.
I have never seen half a group refuse to progress on a dungeon in over a decade of online gaming. It is extremely rare.
Heck, with the many threads complaining about GF groups we have seen in these forums I have Not seen one which demonstrates what I have said.
And how many of those made you wait for everyone before starting something? It's really not that rare. It's not common per say but it is not rare. Developers didn't add countdown timers in many games that feature that functionality because it's rare.
Why would you see a complaint about that in this game when it doesn't have that feature? Like this game doesn't give you the opportunity to stop everyone from doing a boss so of course you don't see any complaints about afk'ers...
Your reply concerned two people preventing the group from completing the dungeon and indicated it was a common occurrence in MMORPGs when players could do such a thing. A single afker is not relevant as they can be vote kicked which solves the problem.
Considering it is near impossible to vote kick someone rushing past mobs to the next boss as the vote to kick disappears into the notifications when in combat, the issue brought up with this thread is much bigger than that afker than is easily dealt with making that afker pretty much a non-issue.
Yes, because it is not uncommon. People do it all the time in games with either no vote kick or ones that require group consensus by bringing a friend. When you give people tools to grief, they do it. Again, this often solved with a countdown timer in games. But I don't think people would be happy with being given like what 10 to 30 seconds to catchup.
Three people choosing to not vote kick someone who is causing the group to wait is not the same as two people preventing the group from completing a dungeon which is what you said happens all the time.
So I will stick to what is both material and not a rare chance of happening.0 -
spartaxoxo✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭spartaxoxo wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »A better, and very effective course of action would have been to make it impossible ot start the boss encounter without all members present. This would mean the person who rushed ahead would have to wait for the rest of the group to catch up.
It would both end a situation where one person could control the speed of the run as they can now. It would also allow players who were on the quest to complete conversations required for the quest.
That just allows duo and stop the dungeon from being completed. Fast may annoy some people but this solution doesn't allow someone make you miss your drops or boss kills.
I do not think we should concern ourselves with an extremely unlikely outcome.
It's not unlikely. This is why many games that don't it. Because griefers use any tool they can. I guess they could put a countdown timer, that's a solution to that some games do. But I get the feeling people wouldn't be happy with that either.
I have never seen half a group refuse to progress on a dungeon in over a decade of online gaming. It is extremely rare.
Heck, with the many threads complaining about GF groups we have seen in these forums I have Not seen one which demonstrates what I have said.
And how many of those made you wait for everyone before starting something? It's really not that rare. It's not common per say but it is not rare. Developers didn't add countdown timers in many games that feature that functionality because it's rare.
Why would you see a complaint about that in this game when it doesn't have that feature? Like this game doesn't give you the opportunity to stop everyone from doing a boss so of course you don't see any complaints about afk'ers...
Your reply concerned two people preventing the group from completing the dungeon and indicated it was a common occurrence in MMORPGs when players could do such a thing. A single afker is not relevant as they can be vote kicked which solves the problem.
Considering it is near impossible to vote kick someone rushing past mobs to the next boss as the vote to kick disappears into the notifications when in combat, the issue brought up with this thread is much bigger than that afker than is easily dealt with making that afker pretty much a non-issue.
Yes, because it is not uncommon. People do it all the time in games with either no vote kick or ones that require group consensus by bringing a friend. When you give people tools to grief, they do it. Again, this often solved with a countdown timer in games. But I don't think people would be happy with being given like what 10 to 30 seconds to catchup.
Three people choosing to not vote kick someone who is causing the group to wait is not the same as two people preventing the group from completing a dungeon which is what you said happens all the time.
So I will stick to what is both material and not a rare chance of happening.
I am saying people griefing systems that let them grief is what is common. In this game that would be grabbing a buddy and using it to grief groups, having a buddy prevents the vote kick.
Already see people do it by queuing as a tank without a taunt a decent amount of time. A system where they could prevent the entire dungeon from being run with no recourse would also be done.
I gave the other examples as things that also happen in other games where people grief timers that prevent people from starting content.Edited by spartaxoxo on November 12, 2021 4:26AM1 -
Boboli✭✭✭I have been playing since release and will only solo dungeons I can handle. I’ve spent tons of time reading ESO threads over the years and it’s threads like this that keeps me from ever wanting to group for dungeons. I know I miss a ton of great story and challenging combat but I find zero fun dealing with people who only want to grief and/or speed run them caring less about everyone else in the group…it’s not worth my time.
I play games for fun not for aggravation. Hopefully, maybe, someday this will be better implemented to allow easier access to tough/DLC dungeons for players who don’t want to deal with the bickering messes caused by group dungeon dynamics as designed.0 -
Jazraena✭✭✭✭✭
✭Totally radical idea: Maybe dungeons that allow for easy skipping of quest steps and bosses should just be redesigned to prevent that. I've been in a handful of FG runs where people even missed out on the endboss because of some speedrunner swimming across. VoM, Tempest, CoH are other prime candidates, and they could easily be changed to reduce the vast majority of such issues.2 -
Xebov✭✭✭✭✭
✭Totally radical idea: Maybe dungeons that allow for easy skipping of quest steps and bosses should just be redesigned to prevent that. I've been in a handful of FG runs where people even missed out on the endboss because of some speedrunner swimming across. VoM, Tempest, CoH are other prime candidates, and they could easily be changed to reduce the vast majority of such issues.
Or maybe they should just make the steps optional and allow the quest to conclude with the end bosses death. BC1 for example has the side bosses optional, you can go on and kill the big skeleton and fast forward the quest. This would be a lot easier to do and also help players that forgot a step.0 -
Jazraena✭✭✭✭✭
✭Also an option, of course, but IMHO dungeon design shouldn't incentivize skipping bosses and quest steps in the first place - and plenty of places with the issues would have some very easy fixes.
Like, why is one of the quest steps and a boss in CoH1 in a deadend room that everyone not explicitly farming for gear drops or doing the quest (and plenty that do, by accident) just runs past? Just... lead people through it.0 -
seldomseenkd✭✭✭A solution would be to synchronise the competing goals of different players. They could make the pledges/daily dungeon dependant on completing a repeatable version of the dungeon quest. This would definitely cause lots of tears, but it would mitigate the worst of the problems caused by grouping players with competing goals.
Another solution would be to remove the dungeon quests entirely, but that should also come with a removal of the dungeon skillpoints they earned for those dungeons since new players will no longer be able to get them.0 -
Facefister✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭"My daily normal dungeons getting completed too fast! I don't want that, I want it to stop!"
Even if ZoS introduces some "adventure" or "quest" mode to the group finder, you "adventurers" wont use it since it will take too long to enter and complete it, even for you. This thread is nothing but a low-key "I hate 'elitists' so much!" thread.2 -
seldomseenkd✭✭✭Facefister wrote: »"My daily normal dungeons getting completed too fast! I don't want that, I want it to stop!"
Even if ZoS introduces some "adventure" or "quest" mode to the group finder, you "adventurers" wont use it since it will take too long to enter and complete it, even for you. This thread is nothing but a low-key "I hate 'elitists' so much!" thread.
This is called strawmanning. Yes, I know it's a joke. But the intent is to clown the people on opposite side of the conversation to undermine their credibility rather than tackle what they're actually saying. The amount of people saying that the group finder is frustrating because they complete the dungeon too fast is precisely zero, no matter how many quotation marks you use.2 -
Facefister✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭What frustration? The only thing I've read "I couldn't complete my quest!" or "I couldn't get loot!". If getting the daily reward under 10 minutes is so bad and frustrating, why don't you seek out a adventurer RP guild? Besides, I also RP when I queue as a healer. I am Archmage Titangrip, the flawless conqueror of the Maelstrom Arena and the Slayer of Spirits who helps out unfortunate adventurers who lost themselves in dangerous cellars and dungeons!0