"Joining Encounter In Progress" = VERY VERY VERY BAD IDEA

seldomseenkd

Facefister wrote: »

What frustration? The only thing I've read "I couldn't complete my quest!" or "I couldn't get loot!". If getting the daily reward under 10 minutes is so bad and frustrating, why don't you seek out a adventurer RP guild? Besides, I also RP when I queue as a healer. I am Archmage Titangrip, the flawless conqueror of the Maelstrom Arena and the Slayer of Spirits who helps out unfortunate adventurers who lost themselves in dangerous cellars and dungeons!

What on earth are you going on about? I'm fine with speedrunning. I'm saying the opposite side of the conversation isn't as ridiculous as you're trying to paint it.

Elsonso

Xebov wrote: »

Thats very simple, because the boss has its arena. Go to Tempest Island, the end boss has no door and a jumping mechanic. If you stay in the doorway or slightly outside and you get jumped at the boss resets because he left his arena. This reset is to prevent getting him stuck or exploiting to kill him. So the only way to solve it becomes doors on the entrance and exit.

That is fine, except that they could still leave the entry door unlocked so that stragglers could get in without needing to be teleported in. The door could be locked as an exit door.

Jazraena

Facefister wrote: »

What frustration? The only thing I've read "I couldn't complete my quest!" or "I couldn't get loot!". If getting the daily reward under 10 minutes is so bad and frustrating, why don't you seek out a adventurer RP guild? Besides, I also RP when I queue as a healer. I am Archmage Titangrip, the flawless conqueror of the Maelstrom Arena and the Slayer of Spirits who helps out unfortunate adventurers who lost themselves in dangerous cellars and dungeons!

You're needlessly belittling people making justified complaints about a game design flaw, and then somehow turn it into a mystifying and entirely flawed roleplaying comparison that doesn't even have remote connections to the topic being discussed.

Please cease.

Jazraena

Nobody should be belittled, period, and it's worrying that you think so at all.

The underlying issue here is not 'punishing people' but a design flaw that continually has detrimental effects for a part of the dungeon group. This design flaw could be solved or mitigated in a number of ways without punishing or hindering anyone.

Facefister

Jazraena wrote: »

Nobody should be belittled, period, and it's worrying that you think so at all.

The underlying issue here is not 'punishing people' but a design flaw that continually has detrimental effects for a part of the dungeon group. This design flaw could be solved or mitigated in a number of ways without punishing or hindering anyone.

It is, and people on the first page try to do all kind of mental gymnastics in order to classify speedrunners as griefers. And putting together random people into a group is flawed in its very core. People wouldn't even touch the random finder with a ten-foot pole if it weren't for the transmutation stones and exp.

spartaxoxo

Random matchmaking for stuff is like a cornerstone of online games. I wouldn't necessarily think speeding is griefing, but I can understand people who do when you don't wait to attack bosses (and only then). It's incredibly rude and unfair to your team. The dev team clearly implemented this to try and solve the clear problem that these people cause for groups without punishing them because it don't quite rise to the level of griefing.

I am glad this was implemented though. At least now people shouldn't miss the bosses.

ThePedge

Can't wait for it to be in every fight in every content so deadweight can help everyone else.

ZOS_Icy

Hi there,

Recently we've had to remove a few posts for baiting and flaming, content that is against the Community Rules.

• Flaming: It’s okay to disagree and debate on the official ESO forums, but we do ask that you keep all disagreements civil, constructive, and on-topic. If a discussion gets heated and turns into a debate, remember that you should stick to debating the post and/or thread topic. It is never appropriate to resort to personal comments or jabs about those participating in the thread discussion.

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For further posts be sure to stay constructive and respectful to avoid thread derailment.

Thank you for understanding.

Amottica

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

A better, and very effective course of action would have been to make it impossible ot start the boss encounter without all members present. This would mean the person who rushed ahead would have to wait for the rest of the group to catch up.

It would both end a situation where one person could control the speed of the run as they can now. It would also allow players who were on the quest to complete conversations required for the quest.

That just allows duo and stop the dungeon from being completed. Fast may annoy some people but this solution doesn't allow someone make you miss your drops or boss kills.

I do not think we should concern ourselves with an extremely unlikely outcome.

It's not unlikely. This is why many games that don't it. Because griefers use any tool they can. I guess they could put a countdown timer, that's a solution to that some games do. But I get the feeling people wouldn't be happy with that either.

I have never seen half a group refuse to progress on a dungeon in over a decade of online gaming. It is extremely rare.

Heck, with the many threads complaining about GF groups we have seen in these forums I have Not seen one which demonstrates what I have said.

And how many of those made you wait for everyone before starting something? It's really not that rare. It's not common per say but it is not rare. Developers didn't add countdown timers in many games that feature that functionality because it's rare.

Why would you see a complaint about that in this game when it doesn't have that feature? Like this game doesn't give you the opportunity to stop everyone from doing a boss so of course you don't see any complaints about afk'ers...

Your reply concerned two people preventing the group from completing the dungeon and indicated it was a common occurrence in MMORPGs when players could do such a thing. A single afker is not relevant as they can be vote kicked which solves the problem.

Considering it is near impossible to vote kick someone rushing past mobs to the next boss as the vote to kick disappears into the notifications when in combat, the issue brought up with this thread is much bigger than that afker than is easily dealt with making that afker pretty much a non-issue.

Yes, because it is not uncommon. People do it all the time in games with either no vote kick or ones that require group consensus by bringing a friend. When you give people tools to grief, they do it. Again, this often solved with a countdown timer in games. But I don't think people would be happy with being given like what 10 to 30 seconds to catchup.

Three people choosing to not vote kick someone who is causing the group to wait is not the same as two people preventing the group from completing a dungeon which is what you said happens all the time.

So I will stick to what is both material and not a rare chance of happening.

I am saying people griefing systems that let them grief is what is common. In this game that would be grabbing a buddy and using it to grief groups, having a buddy prevents the vote kick.

Already see people do it by queuing as a tank without a taunt a decent amount of time. A system where they could prevent the entire dungeon from being run with no recourse would also be done.

I gave the other examples as things that also happen in other games where people grief timers that prevent people from starting content.

Actually, you said it is common for two people to prevent a group from clearing a dungeon which is incorrect. Look at the first reply to my comment and that’s what it says.

However, the new argument put forth is almost as incorrect. Besides someone for some reason needs a moment which causes the group to wait a short time os not a player trying to grief the group, things happen and you choose to vote them out or wait. That’s life and not someone trying to grief the group. I also used your example as a great demonstration.

To bring this point to a real in-game experience. A recent GF group the healer (vet dungeon) asked for a moment. This is not griefing. It was only a moment.

Even then, things like this are rare so it is a stretch to suggest actual griefing in this manner is common.

Jazraena

ThePedge wrote: »

Can't wait for it to be in every fight in every content so deadweight can help everyone else.

How exactly are people wanting to do all bosses or the quest 'deadweight' ?

PizzaCat82

Honestly there just needs to be a story mode where the boss is the same difficulty as a public dungeon boss so that people can solo them with a little bit of challenge.

You're not going to stop the rushers, even if you make it impossible to rush very far. They will still rush.

seldomseenkd

Facefister wrote: »

Jazraena wrote: »

Nobody should be belittled, period, and it's worrying that you think so at all.

The underlying issue here is not 'punishing people' but a design flaw that continually has detrimental effects for a part of the dungeon group. This design flaw could be solved or mitigated in a number of ways without punishing or hindering anyone.

It is, and people on the first page try to do all kind of mental gymnastics in order to classify speedrunners as griefers. And putting together random people into a group is flawed in its very core. People wouldn't even touch the random finder with a ten-foot pole if it weren't for the transmutation stones and exp.

I agree with most of this. The matchmaking system puts players with conflicting objectives in the same group and understandably it's bringing out the worst in people. The fault lies with the system, not the players. Everyone's just trying to get their stuff done.

Any real solution to this problem would need to resolve this conflict one way or another. Porting players to encounters does not do this, which is why it seems to have poured petrol on the fire.

LyraEmber

The entitlement of someone saying "hey guys, can we turn this 5 minute run into a 30 minute run because Im roleplaying a poor person and want to check all these boxes for a few spare coin" is extremely rude and I ignore it anyways.

They will keep up, or be kept up by teleports. Roleplay on your own time, not mine.

Jazraena

LyraEmber wrote: »

The entitlement of someone saying "hey guys, can we turn this 5 minute run into a 30 minute run because Im roleplaying a poor person and want to check all these boxes for a few spare coin" is extremely rude and I ignore it anyways.

They will keep up, or be kept up by teleports. Roleplay on your own time, not mine.

Wanting to do a quest or all the bosses is not roleplaying, nor does it turn 5 minutes to 30. You're generalizing with sheer hyperbole.

Galaen_Frost

Not to mention that it's every single other players time too. Nobody really stops to check every sack laying around either. Rushing to the last boss is forcing others to skip bosses that may have the drops they need.

spartaxoxo

Jazraena wrote: »

LyraEmber wrote: »

The entitlement of someone saying "hey guys, can we turn this 5 minute run into a 30 minute run because Im roleplaying a poor person and want to check all these boxes for a few spare coin" is extremely rude and I ignore it anyways.

They will keep up, or be kept up by teleports. Roleplay on your own time, not mine.

Wanting to do a quest or all the bosses is not roleplaying, nor does it turn 5 minutes to 30. You're generalizing with sheer hyperbole.

It depends on if they try to listen to the dialogue or not, and if it's a DLC where they upped the story. This is why I suggested a story mode some time ago.

Like if I don't know the precise amount of time 36 minute video is heavily edited to reduce time combat and what's just dialogue. But I'd guess maybe like 25 minutes is dialogue.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/579181/normal-frostvault-storytime-with-bastian-and-why-we-need-a-story-mode/p1

barney2525

This could be fixed easily if each section of the dungeon exited into the next section, and ALL participants were required to click on that exit before any players materialized in the next section. Could even use this technique at the end so that players don't get yanked out before they can complete the quest. Although you might want a timer on this as well so the group does not get stuck in limbo forever.

IMHO

madrab73

Just adopt zero tolerance for the fake heals running ahead - vote to kick - job done

Oreyn_Bearclaw

barney2525 wrote: »

This could be fixed easily if each section of the dungeon exited into the next section, and ALL participants were required to click on that exit before any players materialized in the next section. Could even use this technique at the end so that players don't get yanked out before they can complete the quest. Although you might want a timer on this as well so the group does not get stuck in limbo forever.

IMHO

They can't even get the door to work properly in Wayrest after 7 years. We need less random things to go wrong, not more. This sounds terrible, IMHO.

Amottica

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Random matchmaking for stuff is like a cornerstone of online games. I wouldn't necessarily think speeding is griefing, but I can understand people who do when you don't wait to attack bosses (and only then). It's incredibly rude and unfair to your team. The dev team clearly implemented this to try and solve the clear problem that these people cause for groups without punishing them because it don't quite rise to the level of griefing.

I am glad this was implemented though. At least now people shouldn't miss the bosses.

When the speed runner is preventing a player from doing the quest it can easily be considered griefing.

And yes, I’ve seen this in ESO where someone starts running through and one of the players cannot even pick up the quest. There are multiple dungeons where this becomes an issue Wayrest comes to mind as the NPCs move forward as combat begins. They can end up in the walls as well.

karekiz

I think its just time for QUESTS and OLD PLEDGES to get a nice new coat of paint.

There should NEVER be times where quests progression break. You should NEVER enter a Pledge dungeon to realize that you need to queue again becasue they killed a couple of pledge bosses.

All this is old remains from the [snip] version of the game long needing an update

[edited for profanity bypass]

Elsonso

Amottica wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Random matchmaking for stuff is like a cornerstone of online games. I wouldn't necessarily think speeding is griefing, but I can understand people who do when you don't wait to attack bosses (and only then). It's incredibly rude and unfair to your team. The dev team clearly implemented this to try and solve the clear problem that these people cause for groups without punishing them because it don't quite rise to the level of griefing.

I am glad this was implemented though. At least now people shouldn't miss the bosses.

When the speed runner is preventing a player from doing the quest it can easily be considered griefing.

I have to disagree.

I do think that players should respect each other. If someone wants to speed run and there is a quester in there, the speed runner slows down to accommodate. Likewise, someone who wants to do the quest in a group that is not should be doing the quest as fast as they can, which may mean not reading every book, or taking every dialog option, so that the group can go faster. This is a PUG, and both side should be respecting the other.

Griefing is a willful antisocial behavior. Griefing would be deliberately doing a speed run _because_ they know that doing this would annoying others in the party. It is a form of malice.

spartaxoxo

Amottica wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Random matchmaking for stuff is like a cornerstone of online games. I wouldn't necessarily think speeding is griefing, but I can understand people who do when you don't wait to attack bosses (and only then). It's incredibly rude and unfair to your team. The dev team clearly implemented this to try and solve the clear problem that these people cause for groups without punishing them because it don't quite rise to the level of griefing.

I am glad this was implemented though. At least now people shouldn't miss the bosses.

When the speed runner is preventing a player from doing the quest it can easily be considered griefing.

And yes, I’ve seen this in ESO where someone starts running through and one of the players cannot even pick up the quest. There are multiple dungeons where this becomes an issue Wayrest comes to mind as the NPCs move forward as combat begins. They can end up in the walls as well.

The player isn't there to help them complete the quest though. They are there to help them complete the dungeon. This is likely why the devs decided this is an issue but not griefing and made the decision to add the join encounter functionality to old dungeons even though they generally don't like modifying old content in this manner.

I tried to ask them and get them to consider unskippable dialogue in dungeons and they way it interacts with the join encouter function in the Deadlands Q&A thread. But I think they misunderstood what I was asking because they started talking about DSA.

I agree that it's an issue. They really should update those quests such that they only require killing the final boss to finish. Same with pledges. The other steps should be optional.

I also really believe in making them more soloable somehow so players can actually hear these quests.

Araneae6537

I reeeally don’t like this “feature” and find it quite obnoxious! Sure, I’ve been locked out of fights before, usually by accident. But you can also not be able to complete a pledge or quest if a particular boss that you need is skipped. (I guess now I could force them not to be by going over and starting the fight myself? That doesn’t feel right to me. I’ll speak up and if people still rush or skip, I can always leave or kick, depending on who the outlier is.)

I encountered this new “feature” for the first time today when someone called a chest and I stopped with them to get it while the other two continued. Normally, no big deal. A moment and we’d have grabbed our loot and joined them. Instead, we were yanked ahead to an encounter I know not why as it was some minor boss I guess but not on my pledge “hit list.” It was very irritating but I don’t blame the group as it would not have been a problem before and a chest isn’t sooo big a deal, it was more the feeling of not being in control of what I do and being yanked ahead. ZOS created a problem where before none existed.

Ascarl

I would rather implement a mechanism that punishes the rusher and pulls the rusher back to the group.

Xebov

Elsonso wrote: »

Xebov wrote: »

Thats very simple, because the boss has its arena. Go to Tempest Island, the end boss has no door and a jumping mechanic. If you stay in the doorway or slightly outside and you get jumped at the boss resets because he left his arena. This reset is to prevent getting him stuck or exploiting to kill him. So the only way to solve it becomes doors on the entrance and exit.

That is fine, except that they could still leave the entry door unlocked so that stragglers could get in without needing to be teleported in. The door could be locked as an exit door.

You cant use it while in combat, so its a bit problematic going through with that idea.

renne

Honestly, the most frustrating thing about threads like this is that people are offered tons of ways that everyone can do their quests and get their skill points (and, may I add, help 3 other people who may in the same boat) and they're just constantly like "No! I don't want to change anything at all about the way I play! ZoS should have to change the game FOR me! Other people should have to change!"

If you don't want to change your own behaviour, why expect that everyone else will want to change to accommodate you instead?

There's plenty of "meeting halfway" options being suggested, like saying you're doing the quest, in which case the majority of people will slow down so you can do it.

And there's plenty of options suggested that might take a tiny bit more effort but will also help out others - join a guild, pull together a group in zone chat, make your OWN guild for this - but instead we just have people thinking this issue is big enough to complain about but not seem to care enough to actively to anything about it.

Amottica

Elsonso wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Random matchmaking for stuff is like a cornerstone of online games. I wouldn't necessarily think speeding is griefing, but I can understand people who do when you don't wait to attack bosses (and only then). It's incredibly rude and unfair to your team. The dev team clearly implemented this to try and solve the clear problem that these people cause for groups without punishing them because it don't quite rise to the level of griefing.

I am glad this was implemented though. At least now people shouldn't miss the bosses.

When the speed runner is preventing a player from doing the quest it can easily be considered griefing.

I have to disagree.

I do think that players should respect each other. If someone wants to speed run and there is a quester in there, the speed runner slows down to accommodate. Likewise, someone who wants to do the quest in a group that is not should be doing the quest as fast as they can, which may mean not reading every book, or taking every dialog option, so that the group can go faster. This is a PUG, and both side should be respecting the other.

Griefing is a willful antisocial behavior. Griefing would be deliberately doing a speed run _because_ they know that doing this would annoying others in the party. It is a form of malice.

I agree players should respect each other, but it is clear that does not always happen in a pug GF group.

Since you edited out the situation I noted that provided context I must ask if you are suggesting it is respectful for the speedrunner, who spawn into the dungeon before the rest (as some players load faster than others), and starts running through the dungeon while ignoring requests to hold up so a group member can pick up the quest?

I consider that very disrespectful and at some point that becomes willful disregard for everyone else. So I agree, that is not griefing, it is much worse. That situation, though with less detail, was what was edited out of the comment you quoted.

@Elsonso

LyraEmber

When I am speedrunning a dungeon, if people start complaining, I just ignore chat or say "no english."

spartaxoxo

renne wrote: »

There's plenty of "meeting halfway" options being suggested, like saying you're doing the quest, in which case the majority of people will slow down so you can do it.

Group Finder is primarily for people who can't make a premade. So telling them to just go make a premade is not a valid solution to group finder issues.

Join Encounter is a gameplay change that tackles the issue, so is the bosses being locked until the party is together, quests being updated so the last quest is all that's needed and people can't make you miss out is another, etc. All come with benefits and drawbacks.

It makes perfect sense for people who identify a gameplay issue to ask for a gameplay change.

LyraEmber wrote: »

When I am speedrunning a dungeon, if people start complaining, I just ignore chat or say "no english."

Most of the people who don't wait at bosses are like this, so asking is also not valid. They don't actually don't really care what the group wants and just want to get their transmute crystals and get out. The ones willing to be considerate of other people wait at bosses or at least wait to kill the boss by default. Saying something if these people don't notice you're lagging behind to those may work, but they aren't the ones being complained about. It's the ones that ignore the group entirely.