Rushing dungeons and can't even report. This is becoming a problem.

Larcomar

Avoranti wrote: »

In addition, maybe penalize players for swapping roles by also forcing them to reallocate attributes, CP and skill points every time they swap roles.

Errr no thanks. Sledgehammer to crack a nut. We're mainly talking RNDS here not vets.

Barbara73

Ryuvain wrote: »

Just had a third dungeon quest be unable to be completed because someone rushes ahead alone and solo's boss without anyone else.

Normally yes, you can report them for this, but you still lose out on a dungeon run completely. Theres also the problem of them not saying anything and leaving group immediately after doing it. That way you don't have any way to report them because there's no recent player list as far as I know.

This is becoming a huge pain and the amount of players who rush ahead and don't care seems to be increasing. If theres a recent player list let me know, otherwise this is seriously a problem.

I cured this by getting to the point I can solo them myself

Rataroto

Is it a [snip] move? Yes
Is reporting this behavior acceptable? No

Just because YOU want to do the quest and take your time and enjoy the story and what not doesn't mean THEY have to give you that. Group finder is RANDOM, so the chances you match at least once person that is doing random normals on all their 12 characters; like me for instance; is really high. And those minutes add up. So yes, I will rush the dungeon as it is my right to do so.

When I want to play the story I'll do it with friends that are doing the same on vet or even just solo it on normal if it comes to that.

[snip]

[edited for profanity bypass]

Doc45

Rataroto wrote: »

Is it a [snip] move? Yes
Is reporting this behavior acceptable? No

Just because YOU want to do the quest and take your time and enjoy the story and what not doesn't mean THEY have to give you that. Group finder is RANDOM, so the chances you match at least once person that is doing random normals on all their 12 characters; like me for instance; is really high. And those minutes add up. So yes, I will rush the dungeon as it is my right to do so.

And players can vote to kick. Simple solution. It's especially enjoyable if the one that rushed ahead made it to the final boss before getting tossed out. It can be sort of a mini-game within the game when someone completely disregards the other three in the group.

[edited to remove quote]

Elsonso

Rataroto wrote: »

Is it a [snip] move? Yes
Is reporting this behavior acceptable? No

ZOS has a bar where reporting players is no longer acceptable, and when someone hits that bar, I am going to guess that ZOS will let them know. Until then, I would assume that reporting three-asterisk moves like that would be acceptable, even if ZOS investigates and chooses to do nothing about it.

[edited to remove quote]

Elrond87

CaptainVenom wrote: »

God how I hate dungeon speedrun. The best way to easily ruin my gaming experience. I can really understand your frustration, because I feel exactly the same.

But I'm not sure if it is possible to report them... unfortunately, there are even speedrun achievements for dungeons.

i guess its all matter of opinion, say a long term player who has done the dungeon most days since 2014/2015, i would to speed through it at the speed of light to get the daily reward

Doc45

I'm CP2000+ and won't speedrun through a queued dungeon unless the group's on the same page. It doesn't matter if I've completed the dungeon hundreds of times. Others haven't. Waiting for a newer player to do the quest or have an extra few minutes to get a feel for the dungeon the first run through is just common decency in my opinion.

A lot of times, the group is happy to go as fast as possible, so it's not like every time one uses guild finder there's someone doing a quest or having another reason to go a bit slower.

Truupe

Barbara73 wrote: »

Ryuvain wrote: »

Just had a third dungeon quest be unable to be completed because someone rushes ahead alone and solo's boss without anyone else.

Normally yes, you can report them for this, but you still lose out on a dungeon run completely. Theres also the problem of them not saying anything and leaving group immediately after doing it. That way you don't have any way to report them because there's no recent player list as far as I know.

This is becoming a huge pain and the amount of players who rush ahead and don't care seems to be increasing. If theres a recent player list let me know, otherwise this is seriously a problem.

I cured this by getting to the point I can solo them myself

This and only doing a dungeon you care about with guild members.

neferpitou73

Franchise408 wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

Franchise408 wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

thesarahandcompany wrote: »

wtlonewolf20 wrote: »

SeaGtGruff wrote: »

Regarding the reasoning that the speeding players just want to farm their daily transmute crystals on multiple characters:

- How many transmute crystals do you get per dungeon?
- How many transmute crystals can an account have?
- Are they EVER going to reach their limit and stop, or are they just going to keep abusing the Group Finder to farm unending amounts of transmute crystals and convert the excess to gear?

I think I already know the answer to the last question, so it's basically a rhetorical question, but I'm asking it to make a point. In fact, I'm willing to bet that the players who are the worst about abusing the Group Finder this way-- and they are indeed abusing it-- have already acquired and exceeded the maximum amount of transmute crystals on their accounts.

Abusing? How is this abuse? This is no more abuse than ANY other daily activities that you can do multiple times per day per character.

It’s not abuse, the whole idea of banning or reporting speed runners is just absurd and unreasonable. It’s literally the least charitable interpretation of people’s intentions.

Not to mention that there are literal achievements associated with running the dungeon quickly.

Correct

And once that achievement has been collected on the character, you get no more rewards for speed runs. Meaning you need to speed run once. Not every time.

To repeat your point - if you are joining the group finder for the sake of getting a speed run, you are the problem.

But that is my point. It is a two way street. Players needing to do the quest and players speed running are both legitimate playstyles since both are encouraged by the game.

Dungeon finder is not the best place for either playstyle.

But only one of those play styles, namely, doing the quests, actually works to slow down and waste the time of the group.

Both should be done with pre-formed groups for the best results. But completing the dungeon efficiently and quickly should always be the goal of the dungeon finder. Not meandering through the dungeon reading the quest dialogue. So speed running is the far more favorable option of the two.

But speed running is no less legitimate a game action that doing the quests. And certainly not a reportable offense.

And only one of those playstyles, namely, doing speed runs, actively prevent others from achieving their objectives. So no, speed running is not the more favorable option of the 2.

If someone runs ahead after you ask them to slow down because you want to complete the quest they're a jerk.

If you tell everyone to slow down because you want to meander your way through the quest and check for mats under every rock you're the jerk.

Most people I've run dungeons with are willing to compromise. If they're not, well there's really no use getting mad at strangers on the internet.

KhajiitLivesMatter

Doc45 wrote: »

I'm CP2000+ and won't speedrun through a queued dungeon unless the group's on the same page. It doesn't matter if I've completed the dungeon hundreds of times. Others haven't. Waiting for a newer player to do the quest or have an extra few minutes to get a feel for the dungeon the first run through is just common decency in my opinion.

A lot of times, the group is happy to go as fast as possible, so it's not like every time one uses guild finder there's someone doing a quest or having another reason to go a bit slower.

so if i m farming stones i do random with 18 chars if i just wait 1min longer per dungoen (which sometimes can be more depending on the randoms)
i ll need 18min more per day
126min per week ~2h
558min per month ~ 9h
and 6570 min per year ~ 110 hour


and there is litterly no way i ll throw away 4 whole days per year just cause someone wanna do a quest (which most of the time doesnt even requir to do every step listed e.g. in banished cells u can litterly ingore everything and kill the last boss and the quest will still work)

Elvenheart

Just like a player has to select a role (damage/healer/tank), have players also select a speed (normal/speedrun), or just have a box to check for speedrun. I know this separates players into two groups, but if each group is roughly the same size that should not add too much time to the queue. However, if one group is a lot larger than another, I could see how that would be an issue.

Rataroto

Elvenheart wrote: »

Just like a player has to select a role (damage/healer/tank), have players also select a speed (normal/speedrun), or just have a box to check for speedrun. I know this separates players into two groups, but if each group is roughly the same size that should not add too much time to the queue. However, if one group is a lot larger than another, I could see how that would be an issue.

Ah yes, let's make the queues even longer, let it take an hour for queue!

deleted221205-002626

DarcyMardin wrote: »

Wow, I can’t believe that people are defending this sort of griefing behavior. These are 4 person dungeons. If someone races ahead, kills the final boss and exits the group and the dungeon, leaving the other 3 people with no loot, that person should absolutely be reported for griefing the other three. If someone wants to run the dungeon alone, let them enter it solo instead of using the *group* finder.

This rude, selfish “I-want-my-reward-right-now-so-tough-for-you” behavior in group dungeons must stop!

I do agree with you 100% even tho ive recently returned and am liking fast runs for the cp grind. There is however the other end of the stick that is also an issue, the people dragging behind like wayy behind checking every container in the entire dungeon not even contributing to the rest of the group. These are equally a problem.

Chaquinho89

Welcome to Elder Scrolls Online!

RodneyRegis

Hallothiel wrote: »

It’s selfish behaviour.

And much more indefensible than someone doing the quest/looting everything if others can’t loot properly.

Seriously, is their time so precious they can’t wait? Rubbish. Selfish & entitled behaviour with no spirit of co-operation.

[snip]

If either of these people don't like it they should find a group.

[edited for rude/insulting comment]

Facefister

Elvenheart wrote: »

Just like a player has to select a role (damage/healer/tank), have players also select a speed (normal/speedrun), or just have a box to check for speedrun. I know this separates players into two groups, but if each group is roughly the same size that should not add too much time to the queue. However, if one group is a lot larger than another, I could see how that would be an issue.

At the end of the day your average "quest enjoyer" will still pick "speedrun" because they'll also be fed up by an hour long normal dungeon sooner or later. This whole thread is a luxury problem, they complain about <10 minute random runs but deep down, they want it that way.

etchedpixels

KhajiitLivesMatter wrote: »

so if i m farming stones i do random with 18 chars if i just wait 1min longer per dungoen (which sometimes can be more depending on the randoms)
i ll need 18min more per day
126min per week ~2h
558min per month ~ 9h
and 6570 min per year ~ 110 hour

And this is exactly why their should be either a per account cap and a bonus for vet that is meaningful or as solo option.

A solo option pushes a lot of people into just speedrunning it in private which is good news for the rest of us, and probably suits most of them fine.

A crystal cap per day also stops the "18 character crown store pay to win" problem

A cap with bigger rewards for vet, vet hard, vet dlc etc pushes people out of the normal queue but still lets the crystal obsessed get lots of them.

Don't get me wrong - I'm not against people farming them, I just want ZOS to change the optimal approach to it so it's not toxic to the typical player base. If that means making it better to do vet ones or solo and you are out of the normal queue then everyone wins.

Facefister

"And this is exactly why their should be either a per account cap and a bonus for vet that is meaningful or as solo option."
First you guys want speedrunners to be punished and now you want to handicap everyone so you can enjoy your one-time quest run? All because you guys have literally no way to find like-minded people for your runs? Disgusting.

"meaningful vet bonus"
Wont ever happen since the moment ZoS decides to do that is the moment when your "quest enjoyers" will flock to the forum and complain why they can't get it. See Maelstrom Arena, see skin and title handouts. Monster Sets are the last "bastion" of vet exclusive rewards. Give me gold jewellery, give me perfected sets and I promise you I will never set a foot inside a normal dungeon ever again.

etchedpixels

Facefister wrote: »

"And this is exactly why their should be either a per account cap and a bonus for vet that is meaningful or as solo option."
First you guys want speedrunners to be punished and now you want to handicap everyone so you can enjoy your one-time quest run? All because you guys have literally no way to find like-minded people for your runs? Disgusting.

Not what I said. Let me quote myself since you apparently didn't read what I wrote

"Don't get me wrong - I'm not against people farming them, I just want ZOS to change the optimal approach to it so it's not toxic to the typical player base. If that means making it better to do vet ones or solo and you are out of the normal queue then everyone wins."

So no I don't want speedrunners to be punished. I want speedrunners to stop the way they (through no choice of their own) making the game worse for others. Can you solo speedrun your randoms ? then having a solo queue doesn't punish speedrunners it makes their lives a lot nicer. No queueing. Likewise an ability to group queue any premade group of 1-4 people as is into a random dungeon would do the job. Want to just take two decent dds and Bastian on your random you should be able to do that. No more message about invalid group compositions but a 'Do you really want to do that".

It's not about punishing anyone, it's about fixing the mechanics so everyone is happier. The more polite speedrunners don't end up waiting for quest players, the quest players or folks want run the dungeon more casually don't have to deal with one person running through all the trash to the end boss leaving them in the ensuing chaos.

"meaningful vet bonus"
Wont ever happen

Really - I don't see folk complaining that you only get two keys for vet hm and that's not fair ? If you can speedrun the vet version of a dungeon for 20 crystals not 10 that's the same basically behaviour. It's not about extra shinies you only get for being good enough to do something. It might even be an incentive for more people to try their hand at vet content.

Minyassa

Just out of curiosity...okay, so 4-man Random Daily dungeons, both Normal and Vet, have a desirable reward that is enough for people to want to do it daily as a regular task they don't want to do slowly. This is meant to be played by 4 players to get the reward for playing through. If someone who can solo the dungeon chooses to solo it in the Random Daily queue in order to get the reward, therefore using the Random Daily mechanics to get that reward while soloing a dungeon, isn't it a form of exploit? They've found a trick to getting random daily rewards for soloing a dungeon, basically.

Xebov

etchedpixels wrote: »

So no I don't want speedrunners to be punished. I want speedrunners to stop the way they (through no choice of their own) making the game worse for others. Can you solo speedrun your randoms ? then having a solo queue doesn't punish speedrunners it makes their lives a lot nicer. No queueing. Likewise an ability to group queue any premade group of 1-4 people as is into a random dungeon would do the job. Want to just take two decent dds and Bastian on your random you should be able to do that. No more message about invalid group compositions but a 'Do you really want to do that".

The problem is that you have to proof that speedrunning is an actual issue.

I run dungeons very frequently and usually i run 3 daily dungeons per day and sometimes even some extra runs for additional stickerbook gear. That means i have ran several hundred dungeons this year. Iam a tank in heavy armor so iam by default the slowest moving member of the group.
During all these dungeon runs i only had a single incident of a player that was running through all adds completeley ignoring them. A single one out of hundrets.
I had a small number ( <10) of very fast players where i had issues keeping up that killed everything.
All the remaining runs where groups that where anything between slow and fast, but they where all slow enought that quests could be made and the only reasons quests failed where that players themselves messed them up or didnt notify the group about it so some extra bosses could be made.
Based on the above experience you have a very hard time convincing me that speedrunning is an actual issue that happens frequently because my experience clearly says its occuring very rarely.

_Zathras_

Xebov wrote: »

etchedpixels wrote: »

So no I don't want speedrunners to be punished. I want speedrunners to stop the way they (through no choice of their own) making the game worse for others. Can you solo speedrun your randoms ? then having a solo queue doesn't punish speedrunners it makes their lives a lot nicer. No queueing. Likewise an ability to group queue any premade group of 1-4 people as is into a random dungeon would do the job. Want to just take two decent dds and Bastian on your random you should be able to do that. No more message about invalid group compositions but a 'Do you really want to do that".

you have a very hard time convincing me that speedrunning is an actual issue that happens frequently because my experience clearly says its occuring very rarely.

I don't think anyone needs to convince one person, like yourself.

I think the reason why this topic keeps coming up, year after year, is to (hopefully) have it land on someone's desk, or as part of an email of in-game community concerns. They have the data to tell the difference between anecdotal chatter, and a problem that might need addressing. Even if they can't get the data, or don't want to spend the man hours forensically digging through reports and/or group behavior, having the discussion being visible again and again can help to enact change.

Minyassa wrote: »

If someone who can solo the dungeon chooses to solo it in the Random Daily queue in order to get the reward, therefore using the Random Daily mechanics to get that reward while soloing a dungeon, isn't it a form of exploit? They've found a trick to getting random daily rewards for soloing a dungeon, basically.

This is a very good point. Aside from the actual griefing to the group, it can very much be viewed as an exploit: of (initially) using the group to get past a mechanic, to increase their rewards.

Xebov

_Zathras_ wrote: »

Xebov wrote: »

etchedpixels wrote: »

So no I don't want speedrunners to be punished. I want speedrunners to stop the way they (through no choice of their own) making the game worse for others. Can you solo speedrun your randoms ? then having a solo queue doesn't punish speedrunners it makes their lives a lot nicer. No queueing. Likewise an ability to group queue any premade group of 1-4 people as is into a random dungeon would do the job. Want to just take two decent dds and Bastian on your random you should be able to do that. No more message about invalid group compositions but a 'Do you really want to do that".

you have a very hard time convincing me that speedrunning is an actual issue that happens frequently because my experience clearly says its occuring very rarely.

I don't think anyone needs to convince one person, like yourself.

I think the reason why this topic keeps coming up, year after year, is to (hopefully) have it land on someone's desk, or as part of an email of in-game community concerns. They have the data to tell the difference between anecdotal chatter, and a problem that might need addressing. Even if they can't get the data, or don't want to spend the man hours forensically digging through reports and/or group behavior, having the discussion being visible again and again can help to enact change.

The discussion will not enact anything because you have a big disparity between individual players visible here. If it would be an issue or big issue like some claim that comes up again and again then it would result in a better visibility among player aka more players seing it happen somewhat regularly with a more equal distribution. This is not the case. Instead you have some players claiming it as a frequent issue while others seem to not seeing it at all or so rarely that it can be dismissed. Its extremely unlikely that players are this unequally effected. Its much more likely that the players that claim it as an issue are part of the issue by simply being slower than the average group and as such percieve way more players as speedrunenrs than there actually are.

_Zathras_

Xebov wrote: »

_Zathras_ wrote: »

Xebov wrote: »

etchedpixels wrote: »

So no I don't want speedrunners to be punished. I want speedrunners to stop the way they (through no choice of their own) making the game worse for others. Can you solo speedrun your randoms ? then having a solo queue doesn't punish speedrunners it makes their lives a lot nicer. No queueing. Likewise an ability to group queue any premade group of 1-4 people as is into a random dungeon would do the job. Want to just take two decent dds and Bastian on your random you should be able to do that. No more message about invalid group compositions but a 'Do you really want to do that".

you have a very hard time convincing me that speedrunning is an actual issue that happens frequently because my experience clearly says its occuring very rarely.

I don't think anyone needs to convince one person, like yourself.

I think the reason why this topic keeps coming up, year after year, is to (hopefully) have it land on someone's desk, or as part of an email of in-game community concerns. They have the data to tell the difference between anecdotal chatter, and a problem that might need addressing. Even if they can't get the data, or don't want to spend the man hours forensically digging through reports and/or group behavior, having the discussion being visible again and again can help to enact change.

Its much more likely that the players that claim it as an issue are part of the issue by simply being slower than the average group and as such percieve way more players as speedrunenrs than there actually are.

Ah, there we go. "Players that claim it is an issue."

Nothing helps a discussion more than entirely dismissing one side, while also blaming them as well.

Gaslighting. Look it up.

Xebov

_Zathras_ wrote: »

Xebov wrote: »

_Zathras_ wrote: »

Xebov wrote: »

etchedpixels wrote: »

So no I don't want speedrunners to be punished. I want speedrunners to stop the way they (through no choice of their own) making the game worse for others. Can you solo speedrun your randoms ? then having a solo queue doesn't punish speedrunners it makes their lives a lot nicer. No queueing. Likewise an ability to group queue any premade group of 1-4 people as is into a random dungeon would do the job. Want to just take two decent dds and Bastian on your random you should be able to do that. No more message about invalid group compositions but a 'Do you really want to do that".

you have a very hard time convincing me that speedrunning is an actual issue that happens frequently because my experience clearly says its occuring very rarely.

I don't think anyone needs to convince one person, like yourself.

I think the reason why this topic keeps coming up, year after year, is to (hopefully) have it land on someone's desk, or as part of an email of in-game community concerns. They have the data to tell the difference between anecdotal chatter, and a problem that might need addressing. Even if they can't get the data, or don't want to spend the man hours forensically digging through reports and/or group behavior, having the discussion being visible again and again can help to enact change.

Its much more likely that the players that claim it as an issue are part of the issue by simply being slower than the average group and as such percieve way more players as speedrunenrs than there actually are.

Ah, there we go. "Players that claim it is an issue."

Nothing helps a discussion more than entirely dismissing one side, while also blaming them as well.

Gaslighting. Look it up.

Iam not dismissing it. Iam pointing out that there are players here who clearly say they rarely seen it and some that say it happens often but basically noone in between. Basic statistics make this practically impossible to happen. There has to be a big number of players observing the middle ground wherever it is. Instead almost everyone fits into the 2 extrems of very common or extremely uncommon. Since movement speed through dungeons is percieved differently by players there is a possibility that the issue stems from them being used to or expecting a slower group movement. Since neither side has actual data showing their runs and how often it happens everything is essentially a claim, even my point is just a claim.

thesarahandcompany

Avoranti wrote: »

Speed runners and fake roles are something I really hate in this game. I find speed running to be selfish and fake roles to teach bad habits. Nothing like a new player who learned to queue as a fake role become confused, frustrated or even angry because they got kicked from a vet dlc for doing the same thing.

But the real problem here is the reward. Transmute crystals. Having random normal dungeons give 10 per character per day has created this toxicity. The fake role situation has contributed to it.

The fake role thing is also the result of a bad queue system. On PlayStation, queueing as a tank or healer almost always gets you in quickly while queueing as a DD can sometimes take up to 2 hours for a pick up. So as a result, a lot of DD’s swap roles so they aren’t waiting for hours to get in.

The solution? Perhaps not awarding 10 transmutes for a random normal. Award them for a random vet and I bet a lot of the speed running and fake roles will probably go away.
In addition, maybe penalize players for swapping roles by also forcing them to reallocate attributes, CP and skill points every time they swap roles. And lastly, make improvements to the queue system so that it doesn’t take 2 hours for a DD to get a pick up.

I think "teaching bad habits" is a giant stretch. Most normal dungeons, if any, don't require all three roles filled. Even so, at lower levels you're literally locked out of certain dungeons and DLCs until higher level. Fake roles allow for us to do our dailies and get on with our lives and is pretty unreasonable to 'hate' someone for that.

10 transmutes isn't enough for veteran randoms. The whole point of RNDs is they're quick access to easy dungeons. I'd only queue for random veterans if it were this:

1) Random NonDLC Veteran Dungeon -- 10 Transmutes
2) Random Hard Mode NonDLC Veteran Dungeon -- 25 Transmutes
3) Random DLC Veteran Dungeon -- 25 Transmutes
4) Random Hard Mode DLC Veteran Dungeon -- 50 Transmutes

renne

etchedpixels wrote: »

A solo option pushes a lot of people into just speedrunning it in private which is good news for the rest of us, and probably suits most of them fine.

And then questers complain about queue times and not being able to get into dungeons at all because everyone else is just running FG1 solo on every one of their toons so they don't need to use the GF.

etchedpixels wrote: »

A crystal cap per day also stops the "18 character crown store pay to win" problem

You can't get transmutes in the crown store, it's not "pay 2 win". Having transmutes is not "pay 2 win", because you have to earn them and find the gear, you can't buy gear in the crown store.

If buying additional character slots is "pay 2 win" then, by this logic, literally everything in the game you do is "pay 2 win", especially if you're using a toon whose slot you bought.

etchedpixels wrote: »

A cap with bigger rewards for vet, vet hard, vet dlc etc pushes people out of the normal queue but still lets the crystal obsessed get lots of them.

I do agree with this though, even just random vets should have a higher crystal cap than random normals.

newtinmpls

Just ran Fungal Grotto as a random

On silly person ran ahead, go themselves killed at the first boss, and was conspicuously NOT rezzed by anyone when we finally got there to finish the fight.

Then once back up, ran past the rest, started a fight with the final boss.

Claimed to be surprised when he (or she) was vote kicked.

I would hope this could be a learning experience...but I'm not gonna hold my breath

Nanfoodle

My favorite role is playing a healer but I have given up running dungeons in this game because of the speed running community. If I can't get the quest done and earn the skill point, I'm not interested in the experience of helping speed runners.

Hagrett

The main issue is a bunch of players with different goals all being funnelled into the same groups. I don't know what kind of fix there would be for that issue that wouldn't also have negative repercussions for queue times.

The best solution I can think of would be for dungeon quests to be converted into repeatable quests and the undaunted supplies from the random dungeon finder reward to be moved to the first dungeon quest completion on the character that day when joined through the random finder (to avoid FG1 spam).

People could speed through still, and maybe have to take a minute extra or two in some dungeons to wait for the quest to progress, which means those who are there for the skill point etc would also get the quest completion even if at a faster pace then they wanted.

A compromise basically.

It would also mean people would have the option to go back and experience the quests at their own pace at a later time if they didn't manage to originally as they were rushing through text to keep up with their group or w/e.

The recent rush of speedrunners will also die down in the next few weeks when the majority of people who are currently speed farming through dungeons to make use of the new curated drops system that came with the update complete their item collections.