Overland Content Feedback Thread

Athan1

I tried to get back into questing in Bangkorai (previously the top-level region in the DC). My bf and I played through this whole questline building Uela as a tough and dangerous villain. We got down to fighting this "boss", but she was deleted in less than 2 seconds literally, my bf who was fighting from the back didn't even get to see her and was like "was that it?".

This happens in every quest, and in solo mode too. It's completely anti-climactic that bosses are so easy. It literally breaks immersion. I'm not saying they need to be equivalent to dungeon bosses, but this is too easy. I remember only ever dying once to a quest boss, it was some Aldmeri general early in the AD questline, because she kept cloning herself and I was fighting her clones instead of the real her... I probably wasn't wearing armor either, I was too new. Why can't bosses do more like that? Dragon bosses in Elsweyr kind of addressed the issue, but it persists everywhere else.

A relevant issue is level-scaling. I get why One Tamriel happened, but it's actually terrible that you can go anywhere and do anything. The finale zones have to be more difficult/challenging than the tutorial zone, but unfortunately they are not. I think that other games like GW2 have a good balance, where your level is scaled in zones of lower level than yours, but you still can't access high-level zones. I get that people want to go anywhere, but why would a new player even want to land in zones Bangkorai when you first start the game?

The other major problem is mob AI. Mob leash is too long, they just keep chasing you forever, like kilometers, they ruin the music, and you cannot interact with any object or event in the world, can't open doors, can't gather, can't start quests, can't travel, can't mount. This is silly, because you can't fight them either because they become invincible. Most of the time you can't see them though because they get stuck against pebbles and can't reach you. This isn't a design choice imho, but poor/outdated coding.

My other problem is that the ESO world feels too void. Having played other MMOs, I have to say that the world feels dead. Not only do you hardly ever encounter other players, but there are very few NPCs as well. "Towns" have a population of like 5 or something, and cities don't feel lively enough. Meanwhile there are hundreds of bad guys appearing, completely outnumbering the population of entire zones. Idk if this has to do with performance concerns, but it just breaks immersion.

On top of that, most cities are poorly designed, they don't feel like real cities at all, but rather cloned house assets aligned next to each other for convenience. Wayrest is one of the few exceptions that feels like a real city, its design is actually amazing and it does feel like what it's supposed to represent, a medieval human city.

Anyway, the issues outlined above are unlikely to change so posts like mine are pointless, but it's still important that the game designers know how players feel about the game. These issues remind me why I don't enjoy playing ESO anymore.

SSX_Gryphon

Only request I have is to be able to instance a veteran zone. I enjoyed Blackwoods story a little less just because I breezed through the combat. It didn't feel like a lot was at stake given how mushy the enemies are.

I'm conscious that adding mechanics ore a global difficulty would just make content harder for new or lower levelled players. Instancing a vet mode zone is the only way I can think of that avoids that, but I also accept that:

1 - that's more server real estate
2 - if a vet zone has a lower population because of that difficulty then resource nodes, chests and the like need to be balanced as there's less competition for them.
3 - certain quest mechanics that persist so long as the quest is not completed could then be used to abuse other mechanics elsewhere, leading to potential cheesing of other vet areas (something that doesn't give so much of an edge at normal difficulty may give a greater edge at higher levels)

I wouldn't mind being able to repeat a zones stories under certain criteria. Some of them for the gear after CP160 if completed before then and some of them just because they were fun.

Chilly-McFreeze

SSX_Gryphon wrote: »

3 - certain quest mechanics that persist so long as the quest is not completed could then be used to abuse other mechanics elsewhere, leading to potential cheesing of other vet areas (something that doesn't give so much of an edge at normal difficulty may give a greater edge at higher levels)

Which one should that be? Anyway, if you're deliberately diving into vet overland instances just to cheese some quest content, who cares? You could always do it on normal difficulty for the same rewards anyway. (No, I don't consider a blue Alexandra's Froststaff over a green one a different item).

Ditronus

Athan1 wrote: »

I tried to get back into questing in Bangkorai (previously the top-level region in the DC). My bf and I played through this whole questline building Uela as a tough and dangerous villain. We got down to fighting this "boss", but she was deleted in less than 2 seconds literally, my bf who was fighting from the back didn't even get to see her and was like "was that it?".

This happens in every quest, and in solo mode too. It's completely anti-climactic that bosses are so easy. It literally breaks immersion. I'm not saying they need to be equivalent to dungeon bosses, but this is too easy. I remember only ever dying once to a quest boss, it was some Aldmeri general early in the AD questline, because she kept cloning herself and I was fighting her clones instead of the real her... I probably wasn't wearing armor either, I was too new. Why can't bosses do more like that? Dragon bosses in Elsweyr kind of addressed the issue, but it persists everywhere else.

A relevant issue is level-scaling. I get why One Tamriel happened, but it's actually terrible that you can go anywhere and do anything. The finale zones have to be more difficult/challenging than the tutorial zone, but unfortunately they are not. I think that other games like GW2 have a good balance, where your level is scaled in zones of lower level than yours, but you still can't access high-level zones. I get that people want to go anywhere, but why would a new player even want to land in zones Bangkorai when you first start the game?

The other major problem is mob AI. Mob leash is too long, they just keep chasing you forever, like kilometers, they ruin the music, and you cannot interact with any object or event in the world, can't open doors, can't gather, can't start quests, can't travel, can't mount. This is silly, because you can't fight them either because they become invincible. Most of the time you can't see them though because they get stuck against pebbles and can't reach you. This isn't a design choice imho, but poor/outdated coding.

My other problem is that the ESO world feels too void. Having played other MMOs, I have to say that the world feels dead. Not only do you hardly ever encounter other players, but there are very few NPCs as well. "Towns" have a population of like 5 or something, and cities don't feel lively enough. Meanwhile there are hundreds of bad guys appearing, completely outnumbering the population of entire zones. Idk if this has to do with performance concerns, but it just breaks immersion.

On top of that, most cities are poorly designed, they don't feel like real cities at all, but rather cloned house assets aligned next to each other for convenience. Wayrest is one of the few exceptions that feels like a real city, its design is actually amazing and it does feel like what it's supposed to represent, a medieval human city.

Anyway, the issues outlined above are unlikely to change so posts like mine are pointless, but it's still important that the game designers know how players feel about the game. These issues remind me why I don't enjoy playing ESO anymore.

I agree with things being too easy. However, having played mmos for almost two decades, ESO is the only MMO that feels alive in cities. The cities also feel realistic to me, with NPCs going to and fro, large living quarters, profession areas, etc; it is amazing how alive the cities are with players, despite the fact there are dozens of full-scale cities, each one larger than almost any city in any other game. Overland in general feels alive, as I run into players regularly in the most remote dungeon in an expansion area that released years ago. I think the game's mega server is a huge competitive advantage. I'm just now getting into ff14, and the lack of players in major cities and any starting areas is glaring. Yet I can't join more populated servers because they are locked. This "pick a server" thing is dated and a huge drawback. ESO is great in the population regard.

Ditronus

I have to add my vote here with many others: the overland content *is* the best aspect to this game, yet it is severely diminished by the lack of challenge. Without any bit of challenge or difficulty, there's no reason to level up your CP, get better gear, create new builds, etc. While I think the combat is the worst aspect of the game, as rotations are extremely static and rely just on applying buffs, stacking dots, and spamming one move, it feels lackluster to never have to use any ability beyond one or two in a given fight. While having a couple sets active, I often 1-2 shot groups of mobs. There's so much story content that builds up into a dire climax, that always ends up being a trivial 5-second or less "boss" fight.

The game is no fun on handicap mode as it trivializes other aspects and mechanics of why we play a RPG: getting progressively stronger. Yes, there are vet dungeons and trials (I wish there was a LFR feature for trials so we could experience them), but the majority of the content in the game, and increasingly so, comes in the form of overland content. Make it more enjoyable and deadly.

SilverBride

Ditronus wrote: »

The game is no fun on handicap mode as it trivializes other aspects and mechanics of why we play a RPG: getting progressively stronger.

Progressively getting stronger means that you become stronger. It does not mean that the mobs around you become stronger, too. In fact it's quite the opposite. The stronger you become the more trivial those mobs will appear by comparison.

How can a player feel like they've progressed if easy questing mobs still give them a challenge?

Sylvermynx

Ditronus wrote: »

I have to add my vote here with many others: the overland content *is* the best aspect to this game, yet it is severely diminished by the lack of challenge. Without any bit of challenge or difficulty, there's no reason to level up your CP, get better gear, create new builds, etc. While I think the combat is the worst aspect of the game, as rotations are extremely static and rely just on applying buffs, stacking dots, and spamming one move, it feels lackluster to never have to use any ability beyond one or two in a given fight. While having a couple sets active, I often 1-2 shot groups of mobs. There's so much story content that builds up into a dire climax, that always ends up being a trivial 5-second or less "boss" fight.

The game is no fun on handicap mode as it trivializes other aspects and mechanics of why we play a RPG: getting progressively stronger. Yes, there are vet dungeons and trials (I wish there was a LFR feature for trials so we could experience them), but the majority of the content in the game, and increasingly so, comes in the form of overland content. Make it more enjoyable and deadly.

As long as "more enjoyable and deadly" is optional.

Chilly-McFreeze

Sylvermynx wrote: »

Ditronus wrote: »

I have to add my vote here with many others: the overland content *is* the best aspect to this game, yet it is severely diminished by the lack of challenge. Without any bit of challenge or difficulty, there's no reason to level up your CP, get better gear, create new builds, etc. While I think the combat is the worst aspect of the game, as rotations are extremely static and rely just on applying buffs, stacking dots, and spamming one move, it feels lackluster to never have to use any ability beyond one or two in a given fight. While having a couple sets active, I often 1-2 shot groups of mobs. There's so much story content that builds up into a dire climax, that always ends up being a trivial 5-second or less "boss" fight.

The game is no fun on handicap mode as it trivializes other aspects and mechanics of why we play a RPG: getting progressively stronger. Yes, there are vet dungeons and trials (I wish there was a LFR feature for trials so we could experience them), but the majority of the content in the game, and increasingly so, comes in the form of overland content. Make it more enjoyable and deadly.

As long as "more enjoyable and deadly" is optional.

Does really anyone wanted to force vet overland on everyone? Everything I read was a plea for giving options.

Sylvermynx

Well, there have been several people who do, yes. Pretty hard to find their posts in nearly 50 pages of stuff of course. And since I was replying to a new poster to the thread, that's why I stated it....

I repeat again - I would love to be able to kill mobs in a second or so, and bosses in 5 seconds, but my limitations are such that I'm pretty sure that's not going to happen. So optional will be perfectly fine with me - because I can stay in the current overland difficulty where it will still take me too long to kill stuff, and I regularly die to multiple mobs and quest bosses.

spartaxoxo

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Sylvermynx wrote: »

Ditronus wrote: »

I have to add my vote here with many others: the overland content *is* the best aspect to this game, yet it is severely diminished by the lack of challenge. Without any bit of challenge or difficulty, there's no reason to level up your CP, get better gear, create new builds, etc. While I think the combat is the worst aspect of the game, as rotations are extremely static and rely just on applying buffs, stacking dots, and spamming one move, it feels lackluster to never have to use any ability beyond one or two in a given fight. While having a couple sets active, I often 1-2 shot groups of mobs. There's so much story content that builds up into a dire climax, that always ends up being a trivial 5-second or less "boss" fight.

The game is no fun on handicap mode as it trivializes other aspects and mechanics of why we play a RPG: getting progressively stronger. Yes, there are vet dungeons and trials (I wish there was a LFR feature for trials so we could experience them), but the majority of the content in the game, and increasingly so, comes in the form of overland content. Make it more enjoyable and deadly.

As long as "more enjoyable and deadly" is optional.

Does really anyone wanted to force vet overland on everyone? Everything I read was a plea for giving options.

Yes. There are a few who do, check out page 44 for the last time it was suggested explicitly. And the likes that suggestion got (4).

It's not something people that people are posting about as often but it's definitely something some people want to do.

Blackbird_V

SilverBride wrote: »

Ditronus wrote: »

The game is no fun on handicap mode as it trivializes other aspects and mechanics of why we play a RPG: getting progressively stronger.

Progressively getting stronger means that you become stronger. It does not mean that the mobs around you become stronger, too. In fact it's quite the opposite. The stronger you become the more trivial those mobs will appear by comparison.

How can a player feel like they've progressed if easy questing mobs still give them a challenge?

Because we'd be at the point where it's become so easy for us we want to progress to something harder.

SilverBride

Blackbird_V wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Ditronus wrote: »

The game is no fun on handicap mode as it trivializes other aspects and mechanics of why we play a RPG: getting progressively stronger.

Progressively getting stronger means that you become stronger. It does not mean that the mobs around you become stronger, too. In fact it's quite the opposite. The stronger you become the more trivial those mobs will appear by comparison.

How can a player feel like they've progressed if easy questing mobs still give them a challenge?

Because we'd be at the point where it's become so easy for us we want to progress to something harder.

Something harder is found in veteran dungeons, trials and arenas. Overland is not end game content and it should not be turned into end game content.

Chilly-McFreeze

SilverBride wrote: »

Blackbird_V wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Ditronus wrote: »

The game is no fun on handicap mode as it trivializes other aspects and mechanics of why we play a RPG: getting progressively stronger.

Progressively getting stronger means that you become stronger. It does not mean that the mobs around you become stronger, too. In fact it's quite the opposite. The stronger you become the more trivial those mobs will appear by comparison.

How can a player feel like they've progressed if easy questing mobs still give them a challenge?

Because we'd be at the point where it's become so easy for us we want to progress to something harder.

Something harder is found in veteran dungeons, trials and arenas. Overland is not end game content and it should not be turned into end game content.

90% of this game is quest content. It's just natural that people ask for an option tho the biggest part of the game to fit their level.

Also, there is a lot of space between "end game content" and current quest difficulty.

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Sylvermynx wrote: »

Ditronus wrote: »

I have to add my vote here with many others: the overland content *is* the best aspect to this game, yet it is severely diminished by the lack of challenge. Without any bit of challenge or difficulty, there's no reason to level up your CP, get better gear, create new builds, etc. While I think the combat is the worst aspect of the game, as rotations are extremely static and rely just on applying buffs, stacking dots, and spamming one move, it feels lackluster to never have to use any ability beyond one or two in a given fight. While having a couple sets active, I often 1-2 shot groups of mobs. There's so much story content that builds up into a dire climax, that always ends up being a trivial 5-second or less "boss" fight.

The game is no fun on handicap mode as it trivializes other aspects and mechanics of why we play a RPG: getting progressively stronger. Yes, there are vet dungeons and trials (I wish there was a LFR feature for trials so we could experience them), but the majority of the content in the game, and increasingly so, comes in the form of overland content. Make it more enjoyable and deadly.

As long as "more enjoyable and deadly" is optional.

Does really anyone wanted to force vet overland on everyone? Everything I read was a plea for giving options.

Yes. There are a few who do, check out page 44 for the last time it was suggested explicitly. And the likes that suggestion got (4).

It's not something people that people are posting about as often but it's definitely something some people want to do.

Well, okay. Missed that. Doesn't mean that other, more sensible approaches should be wiped away because of some extreme views like "vet content must be forced upon casual questers" or "there mustn't be any option for those who outgrew current quest content". Right?

spartaxoxo

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Blackbird_V wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Ditronus wrote: »

The game is no fun on handicap mode as it trivializes other aspects and mechanics of why we play a RPG: getting progressively stronger.

Progressively getting stronger means that you become stronger. It does not mean that the mobs around you become stronger, too. In fact it's quite the opposite. The stronger you become the more trivial those mobs will appear by comparison.

How can a player feel like they've progressed if easy questing mobs still give them a challenge?

Because we'd be at the point where it's become so easy for us we want to progress to something harder.

Something harder is found in veteran dungeons, trials and arenas. Overland is not end game content and it should not be turned into end game content.

90% of this game is quest content. It's just natural that people ask for an option tho the biggest part of the game to fit their level.

Also, there is a lot of space between "end game content" and current quest difficulty.

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Sylvermynx wrote: »

Ditronus wrote: »

I have to add my vote here with many others: the overland content *is* the best aspect to this game, yet it is severely diminished by the lack of challenge. Without any bit of challenge or difficulty, there's no reason to level up your CP, get better gear, create new builds, etc. While I think the combat is the worst aspect of the game, as rotations are extremely static and rely just on applying buffs, stacking dots, and spamming one move, it feels lackluster to never have to use any ability beyond one or two in a given fight. While having a couple sets active, I often 1-2 shot groups of mobs. There's so much story content that builds up into a dire climax, that always ends up being a trivial 5-second or less "boss" fight.

The game is no fun on handicap mode as it trivializes other aspects and mechanics of why we play a RPG: getting progressively stronger. Yes, there are vet dungeons and trials (I wish there was a LFR feature for trials so we could experience them), but the majority of the content in the game, and increasingly so, comes in the form of overland content. Make it more enjoyable and deadly.

As long as "more enjoyable and deadly" is optional.

Does really anyone wanted to force vet overland on everyone? Everything I read was a plea for giving options.

Yes. There are a few who do, check out page 44 for the last time it was suggested explicitly. And the likes that suggestion got (4).

It's not something people that people are posting about as often but it's definitely something some people want to do.

Well, okay. Missed that. Doesn't mean that other, more sensible approaches should be wiped away because of some extreme views like "vet content must be forced upon casual questers" or "there mustn't be any option for those who outgrew current quest content". Right?

I don't think a statement like "as long as it's optional," wipes anything away other than it being forced.

Sylvermynx wrote: »

As long as "more enjoyable and deadly" is optional.

I would honestly imagine that such a post would be welcome and not controversial because it's what most of us want, yes? The majority seems to not want a forced vet overland but there is some that do, so it still bears repeating if you don't imo.

Sylvermynx

@Chilly-McFreeze - I also said that if the difficulty was forced upward I would try playing even with the issues I have now. I wouldn't expect to be very good at it, but I would try it. In the long run, I'd prefer something optional for those of you who are feeling left out by the "not difficult for you" overland.

SilverBride

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

90% of this game is quest content. It's just natural that people ask for an option tho the biggest part of the game to fit their level.

Also, there is a lot of space between "end game content" and current quest difficulty.

We don't know what percentage of this game is quest content, but it doesn't matter anyway. Questing zones are not meant to be a challenge. They are meant to tell the story for all players of all levels, skills and experience, and it does that very well just as it is.

Easy questing zones with challenges in dungeon and trials, or raids is pretty much the standard in many MMOs. It's a very successful formula because it makes sense.

This is the only game where I ever saw anyone level up a character for end game content, then complain that questing zones are now too easy. That is like someone earning a Phd in mathematics but wanting to spend all their time in middle school math classes, then complaining that it isn't challenging enough.

spartaxoxo

SilverBride wrote: »

Easy questing zones with challenges in dungeon and trials, or raids is pretty much the standard in many MMOs. It's a very successful formula because it makes sense.

I would definitely use more challening quest content from time to time. This is an Elder Scrolls game first and an MMO second, and thus the storyline is more important to players than is typical of an MMO.

A lot of MMOs people just skip through the dialogue as a means to an end to gearing up for group content, so it don't really matter what the story is and hardly anyone pays attention. In this game the majority of people actually listen to the story, myself included. Unlike most MMOs, the story is the most popular and used content in the game.

So I think increasing it's difficulty optionally makes a lot of sense. I think that it should come from debuffs, challenge banners, new incursions (like the wwb), and new standalone adventure zones personally. But however it gets here, I think it needs to happen, so long as it's not mandatory. As I would take nothing over forcing everyone.

SilverBride

spartaxoxo wrote: »

I would definitely use more challening quest content from time to time. This is an Elder Scrolls game first and an MMO second, and thus the storyline is more important to players than is typical of an MMO.

This is based on the Elder's Scrolls games, the same way many movies are based on books. These follow the story to a certain extent, but there are always differences to make it fit a different format.

spartaxoxo wrote: »

A lot of MMOs people just skip through the dialogue as a means to an end to gearing up for group content, so it don't really matter what the story is and hardly anyone pays attention. In this game the majority of people actually listen to the story, myself included. Unlike most MMOs, the story is the most popular and used content in the game.

I don't know that the players in this game care more about the story than players in any other game. All I know is the story doesn't change regardless if it takes one hit or a dozen to kill a mob. The story is exactly the same whether a new player or a vet plays through it.

spartaxoxo wrote: »

So I think increasing it's difficulty optionally makes a lot of sense. I think that it should come from debuffs, challenge banners, new incursions (like the wwb), and new standalone adventure zones personally. But however it gets here, I think it needs to happen, so long as it's not mandatory. As I would take nothing over forcing everyone.

I don't think overland should be changed at all because it isn't the problem. The problem is that some players don't like that they have out leveled the questing zones and find them boring now. The problem is with the player's perception so that is where the solution should lie.

This is why I support a debuff and challenge banners, because they address this just for the individual player. I also wouldn't be averse to a standalone adventure zone, but honestly think it will just show how little interest there really is.

Chilly-McFreeze

SilverBride wrote: »

We don't know what percentage of this game is quest content, but it doesn't matter anyway. Questing zones are not meant to be a challenge. They are meant to tell the story for all players of all levels, skills and experience, and it does that very well just as it is.

Precisely not. It doesn't do it "very well".

This is first and foremost a game and not a storybook. Games thrive from the fun they induce to the player. This fun can come from various sources including the feeling of archieving something by overcoming odds and beating challenges while living through a well written story. Like it is in hundreds of other games from Tetris to Super Mario to Skyrim.

For many players completing quests doesn't feel rewarding or like we archieved something because there is never any threat once you've developed a certain leve of skill. Quest content becomes less and less intriguing. You are right that it doesn't matter how many % are quest content because it's the absolute biggest part of the game. 2 overland zones full of dozens of quests each year, yet it only fits the lowest common denominator without any option for the rest avaiable.

Honestly I can't even fully comprehend your standpoint. One time it seems you are against the option for higher difficulty at all, in the next post you say you support debuffs for individuals. Why buffed + debuffed players in the same instance is a bad idea was explained on the last page.

SilverBride wrote: »

I don't know that the players in this game care more about the story than players in any other game. All I know is the story doesn't change regardless if it takes one hit or a dozen to kill a mob. The story is exactly the same whether a new player or a vet plays through it.

I don't think overland should be changed at all because it isn't the problem. The problem is that some players don't like that they have out leveled the questing zones and find them boring now. The problem is with the player's perception so that is where the solution should lie.
.

It isn't a problem to you. And if easy-only overland fits your perception, that's fine. A lot of other players have a different opinion and they should get the most bang out of their bucks too, not just those that fit the current difficulty level. That's the reason why we have difficulty sliders in single player games and vet/hm instances for dungeons, trials and arenas.

SilverBride

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Honestly I can't even fully comprehend your standpoint. One time it seems you are against the option for higher difficulty at all, in the next post you say you support debuffs for individuals. Why buffed + debuffed players in the same instance is a bad idea was explained on the last page.

We are already surrounded by players weaker than us and stronger than us in overland. A player making himself weaker with a debuff isn't going to stand out as any different than a lower level and less skilled player. No one will know they are debuffed besides the player.

As far as my stand, I am completely against a separate veteran overland but do support a debuff for this reason:

SilverBride wrote: »

I don't think overland should be changed at all because it isn't the problem. The problem is that some players don't like that they have out leveled the questing zones and find them boring now. The problem is with the player's perception so that is where the solution should lie.

This is why I support a debuff and challenge banners, because they address this just for the individual player.

spartaxoxo

SilverBride wrote: »

This is based on the Elder's Scrolls games, the same way many movies are based on books. These follow the story to a certain extent, but there are always differences to make it fit a different format.

Rich in MMO interview wrote:

That was one of the lessons we had to learn really early on when we first launched in 2014. We didn’t really feel or have a clear understanding of what game we were trying to make. We tried to walk that line between Elder Scrolls and MMO, and we didn’t really hit either of those out of the park.

And so, we went back, and we listened to the community, and we listened to the team, and we focused on making it an Elder Scrolls game, first and foremost. And once we did that, the game just blew up and turned into what it is today.

It is not just based on TES, it IS an TES game. And it has the playerbase to match. People who are primarily here for story, exploration, and playing the game the way that they want to play it. Casual and Hardcore alike need to be accommodated.

I don't know that the players in this game care more about the story than players in any other game. All I know is the story doesn't change regardless if it takes one hit or a dozen to kill a mob. The story is exactly the same whether a new player or a vet plays through it.

It doesn't change in content but it does change in feel, or how a player perceives it. The same reason that makes you feel like the ultra powerful, daedric prince fighting, Vestige is reinforced for you by how easy the trash mobs are, are the same reason others look at how easily Rada goes down on their character and feel let down. Player perception is individual but is reinforced by gameplay in pretty predictable and general ways. Some people are going to encounter an easy fight and think "I am all powerful," and some are gonna think "Wow, that thing is weak." And both are having their perception of the story altered through gameplay.

I don't think overland should be changed at all because it isn't the problem. The problem is that some players don't like that they have out leveled the questing zones and find them boring now. The problem is with the player's perception so that is where the solution should lie.

This is why I support a debuff and challenge banners, because they address this just for the individual player. I also wouldn't be averse to a standalone adventure zone, but honestly think it will just show how little interest there really is.

Well, challenge banners and adventure zones are solutions that effect Overland itself. I also don't think a separate instance is the way to go about fixing this issue, so we agree on the solutions more than we disagree.

Chilly-McFreeze

So your argument is that players can simply change their idea of what is fun and engaging story content. Got it. Doesnt convince me.

Being debuffed in an instance with unnerfed players changes nothing for everyone else, right, But it changes a lot for those who go the extra step in nerfing themselves. It becomes useless bc everyone else can still run over „boss opponents“. I gain nothing. Na fun is still ruined by this anti climatic experience.

Hence the separate vet instance. What do you fear? If you don’t want to Go there, you don’t have to. Is it the low pop? According to you only a few would go there, so nothing changes for you. If a lot of people Go there , it would show how needed this option is. So the Community wins either way.

This isnt about making it harder for those who are already struggeling to clear content. It is about giving options to chose who struggle to have fun.

spartaxoxo

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

So your argument is that players can simply change their idea of what is fun and engaging story content. Got it. Doesnt convince me.

Being debuffed in an instance with unnerfed players changes nothing for everyone else, right, But it changes a lot for those who go the extra step in nerfing themselves. It becomes useless bc everyone else can still run over „boss opponents“. I gain nothing. Na fun is still ruined by this anti climatic experience.

Hence the separate vet instance. What do you fear? If you don’t want to Go there, you don’t have to. Is it the low pop? According to you only a few would go there, so nothing changes for you. If a lot of people Go there , it would show how needed this option is. So the Community wins either way.

This isnt about making it harder for those who are already struggeling to clear content. It is about giving options to chose who struggle to have fun.

The big boss fights are already privately instanced so you would not be encountering other players destroying those, only mini bosses and trash mobs. And from a gameplay perspective there is absolutely no difference between someone stronger than you and someone undebuffed killing things before you can do much. Even dragons go down during events before you can ride to the next one and those are not something people can trivially solo.

I don't find something that is true of either solution (this is a multiplayer game and some people will kill faster than me is inherent to all solutions except all quests being a private instance) to be a legitimate reason to go one solution or another.

Not every instance is populated the same. Newer zones or more popular zones like Fargrave or Alik'r desert wouldn't suffer from a separated playerbase. But there are zones that are often single server like say Malabal Tor that would suffer from a separated playerbase.

SilverBride

spartaxoxo wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

This is based on the Elder's Scrolls games, the same way many movies are based on books. These follow the story to a certain extent, but there are always differences to make it fit a different format.

Rich in MMO interview wrote:

That was one of the lessons we had to learn really early on when we first launched in 2014. We didn’t really feel or have a clear understanding of what game we were trying to make. We tried to walk that line between Elder Scrolls and MMO, and we didn’t really hit either of those out of the park.

And so, we went back, and we listened to the community, and we listened to the team, and we focused on making it an Elder Scrolls game, first and foremost. And once we did that, the game just blew up and turned into what it is today.

I don't think I saw that quote before. Thanks for pointing it out.

spartaxoxo wrote: »

I also don't think a separate instance is the way to go about fixing this issue, so we agree on the solutions more than we disagree.

I agree.

SilverBride

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Being debuffed in an instance with unnerfed players changes nothing for everyone else, right, But it changes a lot for those who go the extra step in nerfing themselves. It becomes useless bc everyone else can still run over „boss opponents“. I gain nothing. Na fun is still ruined by this anti climatic experience.

Hence the separate vet instance. What do you fear? If you don’t want to Go there, you don’t have to. Is it the low pop? According to you only a few would go there, so nothing changes for you. If a lot of people Go there , it would show how needed this option is. So the Community wins either way.

This isnt about making it harder for those who are already struggeling to clear content. It is about giving options to chose who struggle to have fun.

Someone running over someone else's boss opponents can happen now, and could also happen in a separate veteran overland. Unless a player is CP 3600 and in the best in slot gear and experienced at all veteran content, there is always going to be someone stronger than them around.

I don't see how someone else being strong would hurt anyone's experience anyway. If a player chooses to debuff they are doing it because they want more challenging fights, and the fact that others don't choose to do the same doesn't affect them in the least.

I am far from "fearful" of a veteran overland. I just think it is a very bad idea and would negatively impact the game I love.

AvalonRanger

tonyblack wrote: »

AvalonRanger wrote: »

I know this schematics is too much exaggerated. But. just I wanted to tell my feeling of this game instantly.
Dear ZoS. Please keep hold on green zone. Do not underestimate importance of "A" line.

PS. I love design and animation of new huge caterpillar creature of dead-land.
I want statue of that thing.

Funny, but if I have to make a connection between eso and this picture than the difficulty would be way below average. As a brand new player in any game on normal difficulty i tend to die occasionally to big boss, overwhelming wave of mobs or confusing mechanics. In eso none of those things pose a challenge in content balanced for solo player: bosses deal low damage and have extremely low hp, mobs do as much damage as your health recovery restore and you encounter 3 of them at best, all mechanics very obvious if not trivial and forgiving to every mistake. I haven’t die or failed anything quest related (so i have to google a solution for example) back when i was a new player and it’s much worse now. Nothing was learned, memorized or made me exited about my experience. The whole premise of the complaints is that a considerable number of players unsatisfied with such balancing and find it way too easy. If you happy to one-shot those poor 30k hp mobs with 400 dps or 100k hp bosses with 1500 dps, it’s fine but not everyone feels the same.

-->> difficulty would be way below average

Sorry, maybe my explanation was lack of precise. That's my fault.
Exactly say...

Too much easy= It's too much predictable game, so it's boring. Always it's same.

Too much hard= Most of people can't understand game concept or something game gimmick.

-->> <for example>
When I've been farming at the G-dungeon the "Cradle of the Shadow" for the "Sicith of the Gaze".
Our two DPS had fallen instantly by the sudden death spike from ground. I checked Youtube guide
before play it. So, I could avoid it. But it's a nonsense game design at all.

ZoS is amateur game designer. I have huge confidence saying like that.

Each time I met those type of game design or unreasonable balance. I lost passion to play this game.

Arthtur

Please remeber that BiS/Meta gear is weaker than Heartland + Hunding/Julianos in overland (except world bosses and group activities). That "meta" gear usually needs 5-10s to start doing anything. If fight lasts 5s then u know... that meta gear is kinda useless. Its more about knowledge not gear. And all overland content is scalled to the same level. There is no progress.
Its good becasue we can do zones we like. We arent forced to do zones that we dont like.
Its bad because the moment player gets some knowledge, overland loses all of its challenge. Of course not everyone wants challenge (or not everyone can deal with harder stuff) but there should be an option for those who wants something harder. And no dungeons, trials and arenas arent "something" harder. Its a group content. If u want to enjoy them u need a group. With pugs u wont be able to even read the dialogs. And soloing dungeons isnt that easy.

For me Craglorn has a good difficulty (except world bosses - too easy). Its not hard for me so i can chill out here. But its not so easy that im dying from boredom... And u know, my friend can play too instead of following me and just picking up loot...

So yes, overland isnt endgame and it shouldnt be. The thing is nobody wants to make its hard as vet dlc dungeons (i hope). Ppl just want to have fun in overland too. Is it really so bad? The last time when i tried to do quests i was just dissapointed. Its was the newest prologue. And the mobs had 12k hp. And there were like 10+ other players. Sorry but i just couldnt enjoy the story...

Also every time we get a new zone its the same stuff - u cant enjoy WB because there is a lot of ppl, u cant enjoy Group Events because there is a lot of ppl. And when zone is dying they add new blueprints and motifs so u still cant enjoy stuff.
Of course for ppl who just want the story it doesnt matter. For ppl who like the challenge its rather bad. And u know, not long ago there was even thread about ppl griefing on WB... because someone couldnt get loot.

SilverBride

Arthtur wrote: »

So yes, overland isnt endgame and it shouldnt be. The thing is nobody wants to make its hard as vet dlc dungeons (i hope). Ppl just want to have fun in overland too. Is it really so bad? The last time when i tried to do quests i was just dissapointed. Its was the newest prologue. And the mobs had 12k hp. And there were like 10+ other players. Sorry but i just couldnt enjoy the story...

Also every time we get a new zone its the same stuff - u cant enjoy WB because there is a lot of ppl, u cant enjoy Group Events because there is a lot of ppl. And when zone is dying they add new blueprints and motifs so u still cant enjoy stuff.
Of course for ppl who just want the story it doesnt matter. For ppl who like the challenge its rather bad. And u know, not long ago there was even thread about ppl griefing on WB... because someone couldnt get loot.

Any time there is something new introduced there will be a lot of activity at first. It does quickly die down though to a more normal population. Making the mobs more difficult probably would run players out faster, but then you are left with a ghost town.

tonyblack

AvalonRanger wrote: »

tonyblack wrote: »

AvalonRanger wrote: »

I know this schematics is too much exaggerated. But. just I wanted to tell my feeling of this game instantly.
Dear ZoS. Please keep hold on green zone. Do not underestimate importance of "A" line.

PS. I love design and animation of new huge caterpillar creature of dead-land.
I want statue of that thing.

Funny, but if I have to make a connection between eso and this picture than the difficulty would be way below average. As a brand new player in any game on normal difficulty i tend to die occasionally to big boss, overwhelming wave of mobs or confusing mechanics. In eso none of those things pose a challenge in content balanced for solo player: bosses deal low damage and have extremely low hp, mobs do as much damage as your health recovery restore and you encounter 3 of them at best, all mechanics very obvious if not trivial and forgiving to every mistake. I haven’t die or failed anything quest related (so i have to google a solution for example) back when i was a new player and it’s much worse now. Nothing was learned, memorized or made me exited about my experience. The whole premise of the complaints is that a considerable number of players unsatisfied with such balancing and find it way too easy. If you happy to one-shot those poor 30k hp mobs with 400 dps or 100k hp bosses with 1500 dps, it’s fine but not everyone feels the same.

-->> difficulty would be way below average

Sorry, maybe my explanation was lack of precise. That's my fault.
Exactly say...

Too much easy= It's too much predictable game, so it's boring. Always it's same.

Too much hard= Most of people can't understand game concept or something game gimmick.

-->> <for example>
When I've been farming at the G-dungeon the "Cradle of the Shadow" for the "Sicith of the Gaze".
Our two DPS had fallen instantly by the sudden death spike from ground. I checked Youtube guide
before play it. So, I could avoid it. But it's a nonsense game design at all.

ZoS is amateur game designer. I have huge confidence saying like that.

Each time I met those type of game design or unreasonable balance. I lost passion to play this game.

Huh? I’ve been running this dungeon multiple times as random normal being dps with taunt and I haven’t encountered anything like that. The only dangerous mechanic on normal is interrupt on dark elf assassin boss and probably killing his shades in reasonable amount of time. Other than that it is simply combat awareness and don’t stay in red. The final boss hp is so low on normal so I never saw her doing “don’t move a muscle” move but I assume it’s forgiving on normal and not one shot as on vet. And if it was trash mobs I don’t remember anything dangerous either. On vet ogrim mob put huge dot, but only if you failed dps check and stood in red but on normal it’s little damage. On vet, yes, all bosses barring spider one become far more dangerous you need carefully position yourself as dd, same as for all other vet dlc dungeons, but that is the point of veteran mode it isn’t supposed to be a cakewalk and fun part is to try to figure out optimal strategy and combat mechanics of each boss and there are always guides if you need them.
Personally, I think devs done a good job designing dungeons mechanics and they fairly balanced between normal and veteran. Something i wish was relevant for at least portion of the questing. And the best part is if you pressured to watch for guides or videos for group content to not drag others behind, in solo you can do it at your own pace and figure out everything yourself.
Unfortunately, I can point out same loss of passion for overland content for how trivial and boring it is combat wise. If it weren’t for dungeons and trials I wouldn’t have a reason to log in at all.

spartaxoxo

Arthtur wrote: »

So yes, overland isnt endgame and it shouldnt be. The thing is nobody wants to make its hard as vet dlc dungeons (i hope). Ppl just want to have fun in overland too. Is it really so bad? The last time when i tried

Now I don't think they should do a separate instance of vet overland. But if they decide to go that route I actually hope they DO make it that difficulty of moreso like VVH which is designed to be tackled solo.

If they gonna spend a ton of work on a challenge mode than I want a real challenge not just some boring 5 minute mud crab fight. Give me something that might make me want to pull my hair out the first time I fight it and then scream for joy when I beat it. Give a final boss fight that makes me want to grab a can of Red Bull.

Go Big or Go Home.