Overland Content Feedback Thread

Franchise408

Ravensilver wrote: »

Why is everyone focused on just the fights?

Is that all that engages you in the game?

I've seen mention of invasions. Longer questlines. More exploration. More secret locations and bosses.
I offered stuff like the entire server working together to achieve a goal - like building a city or defending one from invasion.
I'd like to see a great deal more variety (and I wouldn't even mind if the difficulty was also varied) in the overland activities.

Right now, I don't see anyone doing WBs in older zones. I sit around and wait for ages for someone to come along and help kill a dragon in NE. Why? Aren't these fights *exactly* what you're looking for?

Because the quests themselves are disengaging?

Quest arrows tell you exactly where to find whatever object the NPC is sending you off to find, there is nothing to have to figure out or work to overcome. The game tells you exactly what to do and exactly how to do it. The only thing left is the fights, and those die to 1 push of an "I win" button.

I'm honestly not sure how *anyone* can find overland and solo questing fun, it's so easy that the game is basically playing itself for you.

Blackbird_V

Franchise408 wrote: »

Ravensilver wrote: »

Why is everyone focused on just the fights?

Is that all that engages you in the game?

I've seen mention of invasions. Longer questlines. More exploration. More secret locations and bosses.
I offered stuff like the entire server working together to achieve a goal - like building a city or defending one from invasion.
I'd like to see a great deal more variety (and I wouldn't even mind if the difficulty was also varied) in the overland activities.

Right now, I don't see anyone doing WBs in older zones. I sit around and wait for ages for someone to come along and help kill a dragon in NE. Why? Aren't these fights *exactly* what you're looking for?

Because the quests themselves are disengaging?

Quest arrows tell you exactly where to find whatever object the NPC is sending you off to find, there is nothing to have to figure out or work to overcome. The game tells you exactly what to do and exactly how to do it. The only thing left is the fights, and those die to 1 push of an "I win" button.

I'm honestly not sure how *anyone* can find overland and solo questing fun, it's so easy that the game is basically playing itself for you.

And duo questing = get that April Fools broomstick & bucket helm and light attack the bosses to death/phases in 3 seconds!

I mean, someone did vMA years ago with a level 1 bucket helmet and broomstick.

This goes to show how pathetically easy overland is.

SilverBride

Faulgor wrote: »

Some people mentioned that overland content has always been easy. Others say it has only become easy due to One Tamriel. Neither is really correct in my recollection.

We did have harder overland, but it wasn't the Cadwell zones Rich mentioned, or even Craglorn.
It was everywhere.

Cadwell's Silver and Cadwell's Gold were veteran levels of the other 2 factions' zones that you did after completing your own faction's zones. This is the 2/3 of the game Rich said was not being played because players didn't like difficulty and didn't want to struggle with the story.

Craglorn was created as an "adventure zone". It was so difficult that everything you did, even questing, required a group. That is why I left when I did. I struggled through Silver and Gold but once those were completed I literally was unable to play any more. Trying to find a group to quest with where everyone was on the same step of the quest chain was next to impossible. This led to groups not even doing the story but just grouping and zerging. My character was stuck and could no longer progress.

karthrag_inak wrote: »

khajiit would enjoy if perhaps there were small regions in every zone that were populated with tougher mobs, with the benefit that perhaps they would drop better overland gear (higher chance of purple maybe) and the crafting nodes in the area would give higher chance of slightly more resources. Would add a bit of character to the zones.

We already have that with World Bosses. Western Skyrim also has Harrowstorms and Giant camps, with giants and mammoths that are more difficult than the normal mobs. Summerset has geysers. I see River Trolls in some zones that are also more difficult than normal mobs. These things are already there.

SilverBride

Franchise408 wrote: »

Because the quests themselves are disengaging?

Quest arrows tell you exactly where to find whatever object the NPC is sending you off to find, there is nothing to have to figure out or work to overcome. The game tells you exactly what to do and exactly how to do it. The only thing left is the fights, and those die to 1 push of an "I win" button.

I'm honestly not sure how *anyone* can find overland and solo questing fun, it's so easy that the game is basically playing itself for you.

Increasing the difficulty of overland mobs isn't going to fix that. What is needed is a toggle to turn off quest markers. Do we already have something like this?

Blackbird_V

SilverBride wrote: »

Franchise408 wrote: »

Because the quests themselves are disengaging?

Quest arrows tell you exactly where to find whatever object the NPC is sending you off to find, there is nothing to have to figure out or work to overcome. The game tells you exactly what to do and exactly how to do it. The only thing left is the fights, and those die to 1 push of an "I win" button.

I'm honestly not sure how *anyone* can find overland and solo questing fun, it's so easy that the game is basically playing itself for you.

Increasing the difficulty of overland mobs isn't going to fix that. What is needed is a toggle to turn off quest markers. Do we already have something like this?

How is a toggle on quest markers going to make it better?

---

SilverBride wrote: »

Faulgor wrote: »

Some people mentioned that overland content has always been easy. Others say it has only become easy due to One Tamriel. Neither is really correct in my recollection.

We did have harder overland, but it wasn't the Cadwell zones Rich mentioned, or even Craglorn.
It was everywhere.

This is not correct. Cadwell's Silver and Cadwell's Gold were veteran levels of the other 2 factions' zones that you did after completing your own faction's zones. This is the 2/3 of the game Rich said was not being played because players didn't like difficulty and didn't want to struggle with the story.

Craglorn was created as an "adventure zone". It was so difficult that everything you did, even questing, required a group. That is why I left when I did. I struggled through Silver and Gold but once those were completed I literally was unable to play any more. Trying to find a group to quest with where everyone was on the same step of the quest chain was next to impossible. This led to groups not even doing the story but just grouping and zerging. My character was stuck and could no longer progress.

karthrag_inak wrote: »

khajiit would enjoy if perhaps there were small regions in every zone that were populated with tougher mobs, with the benefit that perhaps they would drop better overland gear (higher chance of purple maybe) and the crafting nodes in the area would give higher chance of slightly more resources. Would add a bit of character to the zones.

We already have that with World Bosses. Western Skyrim also has Harrowstorms and Giant camps, with giants and mammoths that are more difficult than the normal mobs. Summerset has geysers. I see River Trolls in some zones that are also more difficult than normal mobs. These things are already there.

And read my comments from before. Cadwell zones were unpopular due to a lower playerbase and alliance locking made everything just bland.

As for Craglorn: it was handled badly, I agree. Game has changed since then. Please think about it [snip]. That stuff was unpopular because the game was different then. Alliance locking was so bad..... it caused massive divide and was less socialising. Like please, just understand. 5+ years and the game has change A LOT since then. We have EVEN more players now.....................

[edited for baiting]

Magdalina

Kwoung wrote: »

Magdalina wrote: »

Far as solutions...personally, I think it's high time we try another vet zone like original Craglorn - but without forced grouping and with better rewards.

So I am a bit confused here, are you actually looking for a greater challenge, or just another zone to get better rewards from? Not to be judgmental here, but I "feel" like a good portion of the folks who support this, know they blow through vet content regardless of how hard ZOS makes it, and just want more places to do it and reap better rewards from it. Like purple jewelry from trash mobs in overland being the common drop and gold from all the bosses.

Feel free to correct me, but wanting a greater challenge traversing the world to make it more exciting, and having more places to farm better loot, aren't the same thing... at least I don't see it that way. Would you be satisfied with just the challenge?

My 'reward' comment was rather in relation to original Craglorn, not current game. I suppose I may have worded that poorly. I don't know if you were here when original Craglorn launched, but it had objectively worst rewards the game's ever had in risk + time vs reward ratio. There were a couple very lucrative grinding spots at some point which ZOS quickly nerfed to nothing, there were Trials, but actual questing and world events dropped GREEN gear of super useless sets. Imagine going through like 2-3 hours of completing Shada's Tear (that place HURT back then) and recieving 1 green trash item as reward. And it was a daily too, in fact there were quite a few dailies like that. Imagine if dragon dailies in Elsweyr only dropped green trash?

I'd be fine with it simply having rewards on par with any of the recent zones. Blue gear, maybe some semi-useful set somewhere, a memento or something somewhere perhaps, dailies rewarding motifs/furnishings recipes, some titles/outfits obtained by questing or doing zone achieves, etc. That's plenty enough for a zone to not feel useless. Too bad they didn't realize that back before Craglorn.

Blackbird_V

Magdalina wrote: »

Kwoung wrote: »

Magdalina wrote: »

Far as solutions...personally, I think it's high time we try another vet zone like original Craglorn - but without forced grouping and with better rewards.

So I am a bit confused here, are you actually looking for a greater challenge, or just another zone to get better rewards from? Not to be judgmental here, but I "feel" like a good portion of the folks who support this, know they blow through vet content regardless of how hard ZOS makes it, and just want more places to do it and reap better rewards from it. Like purple jewelry from trash mobs in overland being the common drop and gold from all the bosses.

Feel free to correct me, but wanting a greater challenge traversing the world to make it more exciting, and having more places to farm better loot, aren't the same thing... at least I don't see it that way. Would you be satisfied with just the challenge?

My 'reward' comment was rather in relation to original Craglorn, not current game. I suppose I may have worded that poorly. I don't know if you were here when original Craglorn launched, but it had objectively worst rewards the game's ever had in risk + time vs reward ratio. There were a couple very lucrative grinding spots at some point which ZOS quickly nerfed to nothing, there were Trials, but actual questing and world events dropped GREEN gear of super useless sets. Imagine going through like 2-3 hours of completing Shada's Tear (that place HURT back then) and recieving 1 green trash item as reward. And it was a daily too, in fact there were quite a few dailies like that. Imagine if dragon dailies in Elsweyr only dropped green trash?

I'd be fine with it simply having rewards on par with any of the recent zones. Blue gear, maybe some semi-useful set somewhere, a memento or something somewhere perhaps, dailies rewarding motifs/furnishings recipes, some titles/outfits obtained by questing or doing zone achieves, etc. That's plenty enough for a zone to not feel useless. Too bad they didn't realize that back before Craglorn.

Rewards ALWAYS incentivise. It's the reason new trials have perfected gear. In MANY games, harder difficulty always gives better rewards.

Your point about Craglorn is 100% correct. Became quickly a dead zone, only used for pugging, trading and crafting. The absolute end-game area that gave next to nothing killed it off. The only time I remember people doing Craglorn stuff in the day was for the Yokeda motif, which was worth a good penny back then.

This is an MMO. You get rewarded for your time. The more time spent should always mean a better reward. Not some set item that is dead. Also back then with Trials you had tradeable rewards like Worm, Soulshine etc (raids still are done because of rewards). You can see this by seeing how dead vCraglorn Trials are. All are practically dead other than vHRC due to Advancing Yokeda set. They're also nowhere near as fun as the DLC Trials. I love me a good vMoL.

Rewards incentivise people to do harder content. People will "git gud" in order to get through harder content for rewards. They may begin to enjoy it and get better at the game, and may go on to maybe do Gryphon Heart. You never know. Until ZoS experiments with this I can only speculate.

SilverBride

Blackbird_V wrote: »

How is a toggle on quest markers going to make it better?

By removing the markers that the poster is unhappy with.

Blackbird_V wrote: »

As for Craglorn: it was handled badly, I agree. Game has changed since then...

...That stuff was unpopular because the game was different then. Alliance locking was so bad..... it caused massive divide and was less socialising. Like please, just understand. 5+ years and the game has change A LOT since then. We have EVEN more players now.....................

Craglorn was unpopular because of the difficulty and forced grouping. And the reason we have even more players now is because they removed the veteran overland zones and tuned Craglorn difficulty way down.

Removing alliance locking took away the split playerbase which is something we don't want to create again by creating separate veteran zones, optional or otherwise.

Blackbird_V

SilverBride wrote: »

Blackbird_V wrote: »

How is a toggle on quest markers going to make it better?

By removing the markers that the poster is unhappy with.

[snip]

Blackbird_V wrote: »

As for Craglorn: it was handled badly, I agree. Game has changed since then...

...That stuff was unpopular because the game was different then. Alliance locking was so bad..... it caused massive divide and was less socialising. Like please, just understand. 5+ years and the game has change A LOT since then. We have EVEN more players now.....................

Craglorn was unpopular because of the difficulty and forced grouping. And the reason we have even more players now is because they removed the veteran overland zones and tuned Craglorn difficulty way down.

Removing alliance locking took away the split playerbase which is something we don't want to create again by creating separate veteran zones, optional or otherwise. [/quote]


You cannot for sure say to me or anyone removing the vet zones caused an influx of players. It may have helped, sure, but the alliance locking in PvE was a massive turn off for people. I still agree with craglorn. It was overtuned too much.

Adding optional veteran overland zones will not split the player base massively. Cadwells was awful because it did it 3 times, and ya know, back then the game had a lot, lot, less amount of players.

You seem so scared of Veteran Overland and I just have no idea why. It will likely not affect you. You sort of players have been catered too for so long now and it's about time the end-game/veteran players get something other than a few dungeons and 1 trial a year.

[edited for baiting]

Franchise408

Blackbird_V wrote: »

Magdalina wrote: »

Kwoung wrote: »

Magdalina wrote: »

Far as solutions...personally, I think it's high time we try another vet zone like original Craglorn - but without forced grouping and with better rewards.

So I am a bit confused here, are you actually looking for a greater challenge, or just another zone to get better rewards from? Not to be judgmental here, but I "feel" like a good portion of the folks who support this, know they blow through vet content regardless of how hard ZOS makes it, and just want more places to do it and reap better rewards from it. Like purple jewelry from trash mobs in overland being the common drop and gold from all the bosses.

Feel free to correct me, but wanting a greater challenge traversing the world to make it more exciting, and having more places to farm better loot, aren't the same thing... at least I don't see it that way. Would you be satisfied with just the challenge?

My 'reward' comment was rather in relation to original Craglorn, not current game. I suppose I may have worded that poorly. I don't know if you were here when original Craglorn launched, but it had objectively worst rewards the game's ever had in risk + time vs reward ratio. There were a couple very lucrative grinding spots at some point which ZOS quickly nerfed to nothing, there were Trials, but actual questing and world events dropped GREEN gear of super useless sets. Imagine going through like 2-3 hours of completing Shada's Tear (that place HURT back then) and recieving 1 green trash item as reward. And it was a daily too, in fact there were quite a few dailies like that. Imagine if dragon dailies in Elsweyr only dropped green trash?

I'd be fine with it simply having rewards on par with any of the recent zones. Blue gear, maybe some semi-useful set somewhere, a memento or something somewhere perhaps, dailies rewarding motifs/furnishings recipes, some titles/outfits obtained by questing or doing zone achieves, etc. That's plenty enough for a zone to not feel useless. Too bad they didn't realize that back before Craglorn.

Rewards ALWAYS incentivise. It's the reason new trials have perfected gear. In MANY games, harder difficulty always gives better rewards.

Your point about Craglorn is 100% correct. Became quickly a dead zone, only used for pugging, trading and crafting. The absolute end-game area that gave next to nothing killed it off. The only time I remember people doing Craglorn stuff in the day was for the Yokeda motif, which was worth a good penny back then.

This is an MMO. You get rewarded for your time. The more time spent should always mean a better reward. Not some set item that is dead. Also back then with Trials you had tradeable rewards like Worm, Soulshine etc (raids still are done because of rewards). You can see this by seeing how dead vCraglorn Trials are. All are practically dead other than vHRC due to Advancing Yokeda set. They're also nowhere near as fun as the DLC Trials. I love me a good vMoL.

Rewards incentivise people to do harder content. People will "git gud" in order to get through harder content for rewards. They may begin to enjoy it and get better at the game, and may go on to maybe do Gryphon Heart. You never know. Until ZoS experiments with this I can only speculate.

Rewards in vet overland should be better for no other reason than that is the model followed throughout the rest of the game. Vet dungeons drop better loot than normal dungeons, vet trials drop better loot than normal trials, vet arenas drop better loot than normal arenas. The challenge is greater, so the reward should be greater.

But as dungeons, trials, and arenas, any vet overland should also follow the same model, in so far as the extra reward is the difference between a green or blue drop in normal, and a blue or purple drop in vet. Vet overland should not carry unique sets, nor unique rewards, and I'd even argue should not drop unique motifs or mats. It should just be a slightly higher quality of the same drop.

I'd also suggest that as this is the feedback thread, we keep the discussion here for *feedback* about the issues, and not let it get derailed with a back and forth with those who disagree. I have been just as guilty of that, but I would hate to get the discussion sidetracked and derailed, and the valid concerns and complaints get dismissed as just argumentation. Let's discuss 1. the problem and 2. how it can be fixed. The severity of the issue may be up for debate for some people, but the fact is, this is an issue. We can toss out ESO+ subs this and that all we want, but the fact is, that is anecdotal. We can all play that game. I own multiple copies of every TES game released since Morrowind - including multiple copies of ESO on various platforms. I am a TES / Bethesda die hard - I am part of the core audience they are trying to appeal to. I've been with ESO since beta, and I was driven away many times early on in the game's life due to how simple and unengaging it has always been. I wasn't driven off because it was too hard... I was driven off because it was too simplistic. It wasn't until about my 3rd or 4th attempt to give ESO a shot that I finally started finding content that appealed to me through dungeons, and later trials. As a TES die hard, it shouldn't take me 3 or 4 attempts to become engaged with the game, so to me, there is a huge issue at hand that needs to be addressed.

So to start off with, I'd like to present my order of preference for changes to the game.

1. What I'd love to see most, but unfortunately it's not feasible, as it would entail an entire rework of the game. At that point, I may as well just be asking for ESO 2. But ultimately, what I would love to see is a total rework of overland, from the questing to the combat. Questing wouldn't be just follow an arrow that tells you exactly what you need to do, where, and how. The current setup removes literally any sort of problem solving or thinking from the game, and there's nothing that actually engages the player. The system is *not* the same as Skyrim's just because they have quest markers, because even though Skyrim had quest markers, there were still things that you had to figure out. Skyrim didn't figure those things out for you. I don't think that quests need to be as challenging to figure out as Morrowind, where certain quests purposefully misled you (and no, I'm not the type that thinks that Morrowind was "smarter" in their quests than Skyrim, and I do believe that the challenge in Morrowind is vastly over-rated through nostalgia glasses), but it would be nice to not have the quest figure everything out for me before I even start it, and the quests be more involved than just go from point A to point B. A total rework of overland content to add more mechanics to existing mobs also falls under this "not feasible" category, as the developers would actually have to take time to create these new mechanics for literally all the content already existing in the game. As much as we'd all love to see a "vet overland" instance, I do agree that it is simply not feasible, and the undertaking would prevent new content from being developed. Some may see this as an acceptable form of "new content", as would I, but from a business perspective, it won't happen. So we have to figure out other alternatives.
2. That brings me to my next idea that I mentioned, which I believe both 1. works within the framework of the already existing game and 2. allows everyone to get what they want, both from a vet overland preference, as well as those that want to be left alone to a game with no challenge. Instead of remaking all the older zones with new mechanics, simply make some of the *new* content for vet players. As I've mentioned before, with our recent chapters, there are 2 new zones over the life of the chapter. With Elsweyr, there was Northern Elsweyr and Southern Elsweyr, and with Greymoor there was Western Skyrim and there was The Reach. My proposal is that of those 2 zone releases, one of them (the first release; I.E. Northern Elsweyr or Western Skyrim) will be a "normal" level zone where the main story of the chapter takes place. The zone will be just as zones are now, there will be no enhanced difficulty. Normal mobs, and there will be world bosses and world events for a greater challenge and group content. The 2nd zone (the 2nd release; I.E. Southern Elsweyr or The Reach) will be an enhanced difficulty zone, or a "veteran zone". This will have PVE that is more towards higher gamers, closer to Craglorn, Wrothgar, or even places like Imperial City or PVE aspects of Cyrodiil. There will be quests with tougher bosses, overland mobs with better mechanics, and an overall more engaging experience for higher level players that want the challenge. The reason this works is that players not looking for a challenge can stay in their "normal" zone, and have all their quests and rewards and such. Higher level players can then have their own zone that normal level players do not have to enter. There will be no development time taken to redesign the already existing content, it will be dev time spent on new content which they will be doing anyways. It gives new content to all levels of players. Another possibility to go along with this proposal is to give a "veteran" version to all delves as well. Delves are already instanced, so choosing a normal or vet option can work within the same parameters as the already existing normal / vet dungeons and trials. The only difference in vet delves would be 1. enhanced challenge through more mechanics 2. blue drops rather than green.
3. My next preference would be optional vet instance of overland, where the difference between vet and normal would be the same as the delves in #2 - enhanced challenge through more mechanics, and blue drops rather than green from quest rewards. But I put this lower, because of all of the work that it would take to redesign all of the game's existing content. But I would rather this be done than nothing, and tbh if this was the focus of the next chapter, and I had to sacrifice new content to get more engaging versions of the content we already have, I would prefer to take that, because as it stands, whatever new content is released won't be engaging for me anyways.
4. If any of the above mentioned compromises are too much, then I would prefer to just see a wide spread increase in difficulty across the entire game and be made mandatory, not optional. Not changing anything is unacceptable to me, so if the above mentioned (or other) compromises are too much, then just increase the difficulty of the game to engage people who have been playing for years. This is my last preference tho, but it's better than just simply not addressing the issue.

SilverBride

Franchise408 wrote: »

If any of the above mentioned compromises are too much, then I would prefer to just see a wide spread increase in difficulty across the entire game and be made mandatory, not optional.

If this were to happen the game would lose the majority of its playerbase and no longer be financially viable, and would have to be shut down.

Franchise408

SilverBride wrote: »

Franchise408 wrote: »

If any of the above mentioned compromises are too much, then I would prefer to just see a wide spread increase in difficulty across the entire game and be made mandatory, not optional.

If this were to happen the game would lose the majority of its playerbase and no longer be financially viable, and would have to be shut down.

Doubtful, as every MMO in existence is harder than ESO is, and plenty of them are far more successful.

The games that do shut down aren't shut down because they are too hard. They are shut down because they are mismanaged through other means or the game has simply run it's course.

But as this is the feedback thread, I'm not going to continue feeding doom and gloom posts that aren't really based on any sort of precedent or evidence, but rather are based on feeling and emotion. That is a distraction from the subject at hand, which is how can we best address the issue of overland that is far too easy.

SilverBride

Franchise408 wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Franchise408 wrote: »

If any of the above mentioned compromises are too much, then I would prefer to just see a wide spread increase in difficulty across the entire game and be made mandatory, not optional.

If this were to happen the game would lose the majority of its playerbase and no longer be financially viable, and would have to be shut down.

Doubtful, as every MMO in existence is harder than ESO is, and plenty of them are far more successful.

Other games have level ranges for their zones and are very linear in how a player progresses through these. Even then the questing zones in most MMO's are not difficult.

Blackbird_V

SilverBride wrote: »

Franchise408 wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Franchise408 wrote: »

If any of the above mentioned compromises are too much, then I would prefer to just see a wide spread increase in difficulty across the entire game and be made mandatory, not optional.

If this were to happen the game would lose the majority of its playerbase and no longer be financially viable, and would have to be shut down.

Doubtful, as every MMO in existence is harder than ESO is, and plenty of them are far more successful.

Other games have level ranges for their zones and are very linear in how a player progresses through these. Even then the questing zones in most MMO's are not difficult.

But bosses and monsters don't get 1 shot. Every played GW2? Try the quest "To kill a God". Literally compare it to ESO.

This game used to have level ranges too, and it shouldn't for this game, but still I want a challenge so a veteran overland option would be nice for me, and others. Not everything will be doom and gloom.

Franchise408

SilverBride wrote: »

Franchise408 wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Franchise408 wrote: »

If any of the above mentioned compromises are too much, then I would prefer to just see a wide spread increase in difficulty across the entire game and be made mandatory, not optional.

If this were to happen the game would lose the majority of its playerbase and no longer be financially viable, and would have to be shut down.

Doubtful, as every MMO in existence is harder than ESO is, and plenty of them are far more successful.

Other games have level ranges for their zones and are very linear in how a player progresses through these. Even then the questing zones in most MMO's are not difficult.

Games like EverQuest and SWG were far more challenging and engaging than anything ESO has ever offered, and in their day, they were the kings of the genre before WoW. SWG actually died because of its simplification, and turning it into what you are advocating for ESO to be. Questing in MMO's became what it is 100% due to WoW, and that is not a positive thing, because any semblance of originality or innovation has been removed from the genre, and ESO is a defining example of that.

The problems that ESO struggled with early on were not due to difficulty. I'm not sure how many times this needs to be explained, but the problems with ESO in the early days were numerous, and the things that changed that breathed new life into the game wasn't making it easier. There is a huge re-writing of history in the narrative that says the game was harder pre-One Tamriel. It was not harder. Not unless you went into a zone that was above your level. End game failed because it was a horrible creative decision to make you repeat the same content, just in a different faction. The rest of the game failed because alliance lock meant you weren't able to play with your friends, and the one ambitious thing ZOS did try - which was the different quest instances - locked you out of being able to group with people. The content wasn't too hard, it was just horribly designed. Once those things were cleared up, the game became more accessible and more appealing. It did not become "easier".

Again, you are distracting from the conversation about how to address the issue of easy overland.

SilverBride

Franchise408 wrote: »

SWG actually died because of its simplification, and turning it into what you are advocating for ESO to be.

I am not asking that ESO become anything or change in any way. I am advocating for it to not change and to remain exactly as it has been since One Tamriel was introduced 5 years ago, as far as overland difficulty is involved. This change did not kill ESO. On the contrary, it is more successful now than it's ever been.

Blackbird_V

SilverBride wrote: »

Franchise408 wrote: »

SWG actually died because of its simplification, and turning it into what you are advocating for ESO to be.

I am not asking that ESO become anything or change in any way. I am advocating for it to not change and to remain exactly as it has been since One Tamriel was introduced 5 years ago, as far as overland difficulty is involved. This change did not kill ESO. On the contrary, it is now more successful now than it's ever been.

You're not seeing the points we're making, [snip]. You can not say that or certain.

[edited for baiting]

Hallothiel

No, this is a feedback thread for Overland Content. All feedback, not just solutions for your ‘issues’.

You (& others posting here) have an ‘issue’ with what you perceive as ‘easy’ overland. Others do not agree or do not agree with your proposals. They also have a right to share their views, and it is not a ‘distraction’.

Franchise408

SilverBride wrote: »

Franchise408 wrote: »

SWG actually died because of its simplification, and turning it into what you are advocating for ESO to be.

I am not asking that ESO become anything or change in any way. I am advocating for it to not change and to remain exactly as it has been since One Tamriel was introduced 5 years ago, as far as overland difficulty is involved. This change did not kill ESO. On the contrary, it is more successful now than it's ever been.

And an MMO cannot be stagnant. It needs to be able to change and evolve, otherwise it will die.

Right now, overland content has been stagnant since 2014. I needs an update

SilverBride

Franchise408 wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Franchise408 wrote: »

SWG actually died because of its simplification, and turning it into what you are advocating for ESO to be.

I am not asking that ESO become anything or change in any way. I am advocating for it to not change and to remain exactly as it has been since One Tamriel was introduced 5 years ago, as far as overland difficulty is involved. This change did not kill ESO. On the contrary, it is more successful now than it's ever been.

And an MMO cannot be stagnant. It needs to be able to change and evolve, otherwise it will die.

Right now, overland content has been stagnant since 2014. I needs an update

I disagree. ESO is not stagnant and has never been more successful than it is today.

"I totally hear you on the difficulty thing. I like things to be more difficult. But you know, the data doesn’t lie. And we have never been more successful than we are today. And a lot of that has to do with just how much freedom players have to go and experience story." - Rich Lambert

Blackbird_V

SilverBride wrote: »

Franchise408 wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Franchise408 wrote: »

SWG actually died because of its simplification, and turning it into what you are advocating for ESO to be.

I am not asking that ESO become anything or change in any way. I am advocating for it to not change and to remain exactly as it has been since One Tamriel was introduced 5 years ago, as far as overland difficulty is involved. This change did not kill ESO. On the contrary, it is more successful now than it's ever been.

And an MMO cannot be stagnant. It needs to be able to change and evolve, otherwise it will die.

Right now, overland content has been stagnant since 2014. I needs an update

I disagree with your opinion. ESO has never been more successful than it is today.

"I totally hear you on the difficulty thing. I like things to be more difficult. But you know, the data doesn’t lie. And we have never been more successful than we are today. And a lot of that has to do with just how much freedom players have to go and experience story." - Rich Lambert

Yes keep quoting Rich Lambert, and ignoring the points I've and others have made on that. All your defence is is a quote and your opinion.

Us who are for veteran overland have given our opinions and thoughts, given suggestions, and you keep using the same defence, no matter what we say about it. We are literally going nowhere with this thread or on any general feedback because the same things keep being said over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over again. It's becoming extremely annoying.

Araxyte

SilverBride wrote: »

Franchise408 wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Franchise408 wrote: »

SWG actually died because of its simplification, and turning it into what you are advocating for ESO to be.

I am not asking that ESO become anything or change in any way. I am advocating for it to not change and to remain exactly as it has been since One Tamriel was introduced 5 years ago, as far as overland difficulty is involved. This change did not kill ESO. On the contrary, it is more successful now than it's ever been.

And an MMO cannot be stagnant. It needs to be able to change and evolve, otherwise it will die.

Right now, overland content has been stagnant since 2014. I needs an update

I disagree. ESO is not stagnant and has never been more successful than it is today.

"I totally hear you on the difficulty thing. I like things to be more difficult. But you know, the data doesn’t lie. And we have never been more successful than we are today. And a lot of that has to do with just how much freedom players have to go and experience story." - Rich Lambert

Again, Rich is referring to the current number of players on ESO when he states "we have never been more successful than we are today". Do you really think this is purely to do with how easy overland content is? No, as many have stated, this could be due to a huge number of reasons. Now for the other part: "a lot of that has to do with just how much freedom players have to go and experience story" . So please try to tell us, how would an optional veteran overland hinder a players freedom to experience quests on normal mode?

The fact is, you don't want everyone to have fun experiencing quests and story the way they want. You just want quests to stay dead easy for everyone without an option for higher tier players that want to experience quests in their own way. I don't understand your reason for this, [snip]. Everyone should have this so called freedom you keep quoting to play the largest part of this game, quests, the way they want.

[edited for baiting]

Wolfkeks

Haven't read through the whole thread so someone might have already suggested this...
I would be happy if the overland would be a bit more dynamic, like the idea behind the wandering bossed in the new dlc.
Does not mean overland would have to become extremly difficult but maybe we could get these dynamic bosses more often in the upcoming dlcs.

Tigertron

Whoa 17 pages! sorry too long didn't read.

Overland is just a part of the story and not meant as a challenge. So leave it be.

If you really want some fun just turn off the HUD. No quest markers or compass pointers no skill bar or health/mana/stamina and see how long you can play before you turn it back on. They could call that "questing hardmode" and give an achievement for it.

I do it all the time and only turn on for NPC dialog. You should try it.

SilverBride

Blackbird_V wrote: »

Yes keep quoting Rich Lambert, and ignoring the points I've and others have made on that. All your defence is is a quote and your opinion.

I don't have a defense, I have an opinion which is an important part of feedback. Backing up an opinion with facts is valid as it lends more credence to the opinion.

Jeremy

Tigertron wrote: »

Whoa 17 pages! sorry too long didn't read.

Overland is just a part of the story and not meant as a challenge. So leave it be.

If you really want some fun just turn off the HUD. No quest markers or compass pointers no skill bar or health/mana/stamina and see how long you can play before you turn it back on. They could call that "questing hardmode" and give an achievement for it.

I do it all the time and only turn on for NPC dialog. You should try it.

If Overland is not meant to be a challenge then why have enemies trying to kill you at all? Why have a level system? Why have bosses? Why have gear upgrades and health bars at all?

It would just be a sightseeing game with NPCs to talk to. So this idea that the overland is not meant to be a challenge doesn't make any sense. Sorry. Anytime combat is involved there is at least some level of challenge that is intended.

The question here is what level of challenge is appropriate. And that will vary on who you ask. Some players are content with the current challenge. Other players are not. That's why I've long said giving players an optional Veteran Overland to quest in is the best solution. Then both sides of the debate should be happy. There is just no good argument against this and never has been. It's also an approach they have already taken in regards to dungeons and no one seems to have a problem with it.

Vhozek

There are people who believe everything being the same level is not a problem.

Seminolegirl1992

SilverBride wrote: »

Seminolegirl1992 wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

The only time I ever heard overland difficulty being discussed in game was before One Tamriel. Players were complaining and leaving because it was too much of a struggle to be fun. That is the reason I left, too.

Since I returned a couple of years ago I have not heard a single player complain that overland is too easy. Not in zone chat, not in guild chat, not in groups, not among my friends... not one single player ever, and I play every day.

Overland difficulty isn't a game issue at all... it's a forum issue.

That's probably because you're not around the folks that find it too easy. The folks you hang around are probably more tailored to the way you like to play. Soo many of my friends (real life friends and in game) have quit because it's so easy it's boring. I miss playing with them. They don't bother coming back because the game offers little in challenge. An optional harder overland would likely increase a lottt of player interest that have given up on the stories being engaging combat-wise.

This is an inaccurate assumption about how I play and who I associate with in game.

First of all, how would I know who I'm not compatible with unless I had actually met players who made it clear they thought overland was too easy and didn't play the way I do?

Second, how in years of playing and being in guilds and grouping with random (not hand picked) players for World Bosses and Harrowstorms and Dragons and daily quests and chatting in zone and an occasional pug dungeon, have I never even once heard anyone complain that overland was too easy?

If there were really a lot of players who feel that way I should have at least run into one now and then. The fact that I haven't tells me they are a very small minority.

Because that would be an odd thing to say while doing a world boss, harrowstorm, dragon, quest, dungeons, etc. It's more of a conversation had between friends about something they wish would happen, or would like, or do like. I wouldn't group with a random and say, "Y'know, overland is too dang easy." That would be extremely odd. It's a conversation I have among friends who enjoy harder content, hence my assumption. If you don't engage in that sort of content, you're not likely to come across folks who would share that sentiment with you. I very much doubt that it's a small minority. Many of those who would love such a thing have quit already. And typically, people congregate around those with similar interests, so of course you don't see them. Whereas I see them all the time. You're also not accounting for those who never bother to visit the forums, or those who don't speak english, or as I said earlier, went elsewhere for a challenge. I think many of the long term players that spend money in the game would take renewed interest at the very least. And it would increase the fun that many of us long timers would have. It's a skewed bias basically. I don't think the number is as small as you think it is

spartaxoxo

I'm just gonna share an very common piece of feedback from back when the game was harder.

The devs know more about their game and what made people quit than any or us ever could hope to, regardless of what our guilds of like-minded people tell us. They have an unbiased and non-anecdotal view of the entire playerbase. When they say that the vast majority of people will not like something and don't engage in something, they are the authority figures. We don't have the data. We don't have the uninstall feedback.

The developers do.

You cannot force vet overland.

Vhozek

If the server is able to maintain track of a player's level and scale everything to that person's level while at the same time taking into account the quote on quote "10 million" other player's level, then it should be able to maintain track of who has something like a "veteran mode" and scale levels differently so long as the toggle replaces the initial calculations with new calculations.

I believe the problem here is profit, not implementation.
Well, how about this? If I stop playing because it's boring, I won't buy what you put out.
This has to be the only logical conclussion. This topic has been alive for many years on the forums.