Overland Content Feedback Thread

Jeremy

Vhozek wrote: »

There are people who believe everything being the same level is not a problem.

I think part of the problem is people focus too much on the level scaling.

Leveling up still gives you skill points and attributes and access to new abilities, all of which are vital to making your character more powerful. Then there is the gear progression and then finally Champion Points. So there is a lot of growth opportunity that is still inherent in the system. It's not as stagnant as it might first appear to people.

Blackbird_V

Seminolegirl1992 wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Seminolegirl1992 wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

The only time I ever heard overland difficulty being discussed in game was before One Tamriel. Players were complaining and leaving because it was too much of a struggle to be fun. That is the reason I left, too.

Since I returned a couple of years ago I have not heard a single player complain that overland is too easy. Not in zone chat, not in guild chat, not in groups, not among my friends... not one single player ever, and I play every day.

Overland difficulty isn't a game issue at all... it's a forum issue.

That's probably because you're not around the folks that find it too easy. The folks you hang around are probably more tailored to the way you like to play. Soo many of my friends (real life friends and in game) have quit because it's so easy it's boring. I miss playing with them. They don't bother coming back because the game offers little in challenge. An optional harder overland would likely increase a lottt of player interest that have given up on the stories being engaging combat-wise.

This is an inaccurate assumption about how I play and who I associate with in game.

First of all, how would I know who I'm not compatible with unless I had actually met players who made it clear they thought overland was too easy and didn't play the way I do?

Second, how in years of playing and being in guilds and grouping with random (not hand picked) players for World Bosses and Harrowstorms and Dragons and daily quests and chatting in zone and an occasional pug dungeon, have I never even once heard anyone complain that overland was too easy?

If there were really a lot of players who feel that way I should have at least run into one now and then. The fact that I haven't tells me they are a very small minority.

Because that would be an odd thing to say while doing a world boss, harrowstorm, dragon, quest, dungeons, etc. It's more of a conversation had between friends about something they wish would happen, or would like, or do like. I wouldn't group with a random and say, "Y'know, overland is too dang easy." That would be extremely odd. It's a conversation I have among friends who enjoy harder content, hence my assumption. If you don't engage in that sort of content, you're not likely to come across folks who would share that sentiment with you. I very much doubt that it's a small minority. Many of those who would love such a thing have quit already. And typically, people congregate around those with similar interests, so of course you don't see them. Whereas I see them all the time. You're also not accounting for those who never bother to visit the forums, or those who don't speak english, or as I said earlier, went elsewhere for a challenge. I think many of the long term players that spend money in the game would take renewed interest at the very least. And it would increase the fun that many of us long timers would have. It's a skewed bias basically. I don't think the number is as small as you think it is

Fully agree. I don't go around in game saying overland is too easy. It's be a weird thing to say out of the blue. Forums etc. is for that sort of stuff.

spartaxoxo wrote: »

I'm just gonna share an very common piece of feedback from back when the game was harder.

The devs know more about their game and what made people quit than any or us ever could hope to, regardless of what our guilds of like-minded people tell us. They have an unbiased and non-anecdotal view of the entire playerbase. When they say that the vast majority of people will not like something and don't engage in something, they are the authority figures. We don't have the data. We don't have the uninstall feedback.

The developers do.

You cannot force vet overland.

When the game was harder years ago and help was scarce because of alliance locking and massively lower population, so we had little to no people in other zones because it was spread thrice, and guild were of no help either because of this reason.

We're also not forcing vet overland, we're merely asking for it.

Hallothiel

Well how about this? If I stop playing because it’s too hard, I won’t buy what you put out. This has to be the only logical conclusion.

Jeremy

spartaxoxo wrote: »

I'm just gonna share an very common piece of feedback from back when the game was harder.

The devs know more about their game and what made people quit than any or us ever could hope to, regardless of what our guilds of like-minded people tell us. They have an unbiased and non-anecdotal view of the entire playerbase. When they say that the vast majority of people will not like something and don't engage in something, they are the authority figures. We don't have the data. We don't have the uninstall feedback.

The developers do.

You cannot force vet overland.

Who is trying to force people to do a Veteran overland? I haven't seen a single person in this thread who is opposed to making this optional. If there is, could you please show me this post?

And as I've told you many times before Spartaxxoxo, the Veteran Ranking system was poorly designed from the start and no one I'm aware of is asking for that particular system to be brought back. So that's a flawed analogy.

Seminolegirl1992

Blackbird_V wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Franchise408 wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Franchise408 wrote: »

SWG actually died because of its simplification, and turning it into what you are advocating for ESO to be.

I am not asking that ESO become anything or change in any way. I am advocating for it to not change and to remain exactly as it has been since One Tamriel was introduced 5 years ago, as far as overland difficulty is involved. This change did not kill ESO. On the contrary, it is more successful now than it's ever been.

And an MMO cannot be stagnant. It needs to be able to change and evolve, otherwise it will die.

Right now, overland content has been stagnant since 2014. I needs an update

I disagree with your opinion. ESO has never been more successful than it is today.

"I totally hear you on the difficulty thing. I like things to be more difficult. But you know, the data doesn’t lie. And we have never been more successful than we are today. And a lot of that has to do with just how much freedom players have to go and experience story." - Rich Lambert

Yes keep quoting Rich Lambert, and ignoring the points I've and others have made on that. All your defence is is a quote and your opinion.

Us who are for veteran overland have given our opinions and thoughts, given suggestions, and you keep using the same defence, no matter what we say about it. We are literally going nowhere with this thread or on any general feedback because the same things keep being said over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over again. It's becoming extremely annoying.

This^ We've directly responded to your point about the Rich quote yet you keep quoting it, despite us giving valid reasons why that data is irrelevant. Vet Cadwell and Craglorn are awful examples of peoples' preferences regarding difficult content, and assuming that the game is successful because of its ease is silly- the game has grown tremendously, released new content, consistently improved, Covid...you cannot assume that its tied directly to ease. 7 years have passed; of course it's grown. You also mention freedom....exactly. That's what we want. Freedom to play content that gives us a challenge rather than be told to only go enjoy trials and world bosses.

spartaxoxo

Blackbird_V wrote: »

We're also not forcing vet overland, we're merely asking for it.

You're not. There's a player that stated it should be forced and that is who that response is to. Vet Overland cannot be forced.

We have tried having the game feel like it's forcing people into harder content before and people quit over it and the game was not successful. And many od them directly cited the difficulty as why. They spoke for themselves. Difficulty.

A separate vet overland won't have the same problem in regards to that as a forced one, but we know what happens when it's forced.

SilverBride

Jeremy wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

...You cannot force vet overland.

Who is trying to force people to do a Veteran overland? I haven't seen a single person in this thread who is opposed to making this optional. If there is, could you please show me this post?

I have posted several times that I am against an optional veteran overland and given reasons as to why. My first post in this thread stating this is post #33.

Blackbird_V

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Blackbird_V wrote: »

We're also not forcing vet overland, we're merely asking for it.

You're not. There's a player that stated it should be forced and that is who that response is to. Vet Overland cannot be forced.

We have tried having the game feel like it's forcing people into harder content before and people quit over it and the game was not successful.

That was clearly sarcasm what that player put. Literally sarcasm.

And forced back on games release, when it was released like that? I'm sorry, but I don't like being "forced" to do easy overland content without choice, which is what happened with One-Tamriel. I too, can use that argument.

I don't want to be "forced" to do non-challenging content and only do that in raids and dungeons. I want freedom. Freedom to do challenging overland content such as delves, public dungeons and quests which this game does not offer.

spartaxoxo

Jeremy wrote: »

And as I've told you many times before Spartaxxoxo, the Veteran Ranking system was poorly designed from the start and no one I'm aware of is asking for that particular system to be brought back. So that's a flawed analogy.

No. It is not. Because I was speaking on people directly citing the DIFFICULTY as the reason they quit, and NOT the structure. You have stated in the past that we can't compare structures and they also caused people to leave, and that is true. It does NOT negate that many people directly stated that the difficulty was the reason they were quitting.

spartaxoxo

Blackbird_V wrote: »

That was clearly sarcasm what that player put. Literally sarcasm.

Franchise408 wrote: »

.
4. If any of the above mentioned compromises are too much, then I would prefer to just see a wide spread increase in difficulty across the entire game and be made mandatory, not optional. Not changing anything is unacceptable to me, so if the above mentioned (or other) compromises are too much, then just increase the difficulty of the game to engage people who have been playing for years. This is my last preference tho, but it's better than just simply not addressing the issue.

No. It was not. It was their last preference and they stated they hoped it did not come to that, but they would rather it be forced than not have any of their solutions.

Sylvermynx

@Jeremy - from post #491 (snipped to reduce length):

Franchise408 wrote: »

4. If any of the above mentioned compromises are too much, then I would prefer to just see a wide spread increase in difficulty across the entire game and be made mandatory, not optional. Not changing anything is unacceptable to me, so if the above mentioned (or other) compromises are too much, then just increase the difficulty of the game to engage people who have been playing for years. This is my last preference tho, but it's better than just simply not addressing the issue.

Though yes, he does indicate it's his "last preference". And of course, I have myself been playing for years, and I'm fully engaged with the game as it is right now. But I wouldn't argue with optional harder overland - only forced harder overland.

Jeremy

SilverBride wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

...You cannot force vet overland.

Who is trying to force people to do a Veteran overland? I haven't seen a single person in this thread who is opposed to making this optional. If there is, could you please show me this post?

I have posted several times that I am against an optional veteran overland and given reasons as to why. My first post in this thread stating this is post #33.

You misunderstand what I'm saying.

I am talking about out of the posters who are advocating for a Veteran Overland, none of them that I have seen are opposed to making it optional. In other words: no one I have seen is trying to force others into Veteran Overland. There may be some, but if there are they are few and far between. The vast majority of players who are asking for Vet Overland are for making it optional.

Don't worry, I'm aware you're against giving players the option to enjoy Veteran Level questing. Why however is something I have never understood and likely never will.

Seminolegirl1992

So aside from one individual saying forced if no other option was available, every single one of us has begged for optional because we want everyone to play they want.

SilverBride

Blackbird_V wrote: »

I don't like being "forced" to do easy overland content without choice, which is what happened with One-Tamriel.

One Tamriel was implemented 5 years ago and has been very successful for a number of reasons, one being that it addressed the difficulty that was causing a lot of players to not even play 2/3 of the content. The problem of overland being too difficult back then was bad enough that they lost a lot of players over it, because it was extremely difficult to progress.

Blackbird_V wrote: »

I don't want to be "forced" to do challenging content only in raids and dungeons. I want freedom. Freedom to do challenging overland content such as delves, public dungeons and quests which this game does not offer.

Easy questing zones with the challenge in dungeons and trials, or raids as some call them, is pretty much the standard in most MMO's.

Jeremy

Sylvermynx wrote: »

@Jeremy - from post #491 (snipped to reduce length):

Franchise408 wrote: »

4. If any of the above mentioned compromises are too much, then I would prefer to just see a wide spread increase in difficulty across the entire game and be made mandatory, not optional. Not changing anything is unacceptable to me, so if the above mentioned (or other) compromises are too much, then just increase the difficulty of the game to engage people who have been playing for years. This is my last preference tho, but it's better than just simply not addressing the issue.

Though yes, he does indicate it's his "last preference". And of course, I have myself been playing for years, and I'm fully engaged with the game as it is right now. But I wouldn't argue with optional harder overland - only forced harder overland.

As you say, that's just his last preference. So I don't think that poster is against having an optional Veteran Overland. In fact that seems to be his preferred solution.

It's just in the event we never get an optional Vet Overland he would prefer the challenge be increased across the board. So I don't think that post conflicts directly with what I said.

spartaxoxo

Jeremy wrote: »

In other words: no one I have seen is trying to force others into Veteran Overland. There may be some, but if there are they are few and far between. The vast majority of players who are asking for Vet Overland are for making it optional.

It doesn't really actually inspire much confidence that y'all are in agreement it shouldn't be forced when the response to someone responding to someone saying "vet overland shouldn't be forced" isn't agreement with that statement, but instead acting like we're painting the entire thread as wanting it forced.

Just saying. Regardless, I don't want it forced and will talk about how forced overland is unhealthy anytime I see that proposed as a solution. It should not be forced. If it doesn't apply to what you want, then I'm not speaking to or about you.

SilverBride

Jeremy wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

...You cannot force vet overland.

Who is trying to force people to do a Veteran overland? I haven't seen a single person in this thread who is opposed to making this optional. If there is, could you please show me this post?

I have posted several times that I am against an optional veteran overland and given reasons as to why. My first post in this thread stating this is post #33.

You misunderstand what I'm saying.

I am talking about out of the posters who are advocating for a Veteran Overland, none of them that I have seen are opposed to making it optional. In other words: no one I have seen is trying to force others into Veteran Overland. There may be some, but if there are they are few and far between. The vast majority of players who are asking for Vet Overland are for making it optional.

Don't worry, I'm aware you're against giving players the option to enjoy Veteran Level question. Why however is something I have never understood and likely never will.

I thought you were referring to all the posters in this thread and not just those who want veteran overland.

I don't know how to make you understand my view any more than the reasons I already gave for opposing it. We just have to agree to disagree.

Vhozek

Jeremy wrote: »

Vhozek wrote: »

There are people who believe everything being the same level is not a problem.

I think part of the problem is people focus too much on the level scaling.

Leveling up still gives you skill points and attributes and access to new abilities, all of which are vital to making your character more powerful. Then there is the gear progression and then finally Champion Points. So there is a lot of growth opportunity that is still inherent in the system. It's not as stagnant as it might first appear to people.

So does my opinion not matter? Because it is incredibly stagnant to me and others.
It is DREADFUL.

Vhozek

Hallothiel wrote: »

Well how about this? If I stop playing because it’s too hard, I won’t buy what you put out. This has to be the only logical conclusion.

Except we're all proposing for options.
I'm not sure why you would choose to make it harder for yourself and then quit because it's too hard.

Jeremy

SilverBride wrote: »

Blackbird_V wrote: »

I don't like being "forced" to do easy overland content without choice, which is what happened with One-Tamriel.

One Tamriel was implemented 5 years ago and has been very successful for a number of reasons, one being that it addressed the difficulty that was causing a lot of players to not even play 2/3 of the content. The problem of overland being too difficult back then was bad enough that they lost a lot of players over it, because it was extremely difficult to progress.
.

It was the exact opposite problem for me.

Before One Tamriel most of the zones became way too easy. You literally could not spend any amount of time in a zone questing and exploring without completely out-leveling the content and making it irrelevant and tedious to the point enemies would not even drop you loot.

One Tamriel was designed to address this problem, and allowed players to match the difficulty of the content no matter where they were so they could travel where they liked and do content when and where they wanted to. To accept any quest, fight any monster, and experience a world of adventure without limits!

So I don't think One Tamirel was implemented to make the game easier. It was implemented to allow for more freedom of play, which the game desperately needed. It just needs a Veteran scaling for more experience players (like they do with dungeons) and it would be golden.

Vhozek

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Blackbird_V wrote: »

We're also not forcing vet overland, we're merely asking for it.

You're not. There's a player that stated it should be forced and that is who that response is to. Vet Overland cannot be forced.

We have tried having the game feel like it's forcing people into harder content before and people quit over it and the game was not successful. And many od them directly cited the difficulty as why. They spoke for themselves. Difficulty.

A separate vet overland won't have the same problem in regards to that as a forced one, but we know what happens when it's forced.

Ok and it shouldn't be forced although I personally have a conflicting opinion that it SHOULD be forced because it adds more weight to the story.
I understand there are people that don't care about the story, so optional it is. Too bad, but we gotta make sure people that liked it still like it.
I wish that was the mentality that went behind One Tamriel though.

SilverBride

Jeremy wrote: »

So I don't think One Tamirel was implemented to make the game easier. It was implemenedt to allow for more freedom of play, which the game desperately needed.

One Tamriel did address a few issues, but difficulty was most definitely on that list.

Vhozek

Jeremy wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Blackbird_V wrote: »

I don't like being "forced" to do easy overland content without choice, which is what happened with One-Tamriel.

One Tamriel was implemented 5 years ago and has been very successful for a number of reasons, one being that it addressed the difficulty that was causing a lot of players to not even play 2/3 of the content. The problem of overland being too difficult back then was bad enough that they lost a lot of players over it, because it was extremely difficult to progress.
.

It was the exact opposite problem for me.

Before One Tamriel most of the zones became way too easy. You literally could not spend any amount of time in a zone questing and exploring without completely out-leveling the content and making it irrelevant and tedious to the point enemies would not even drop you loot.

One Tamriel was designed to address this problem, and allowed players to match the difficulty of the content no matter where they were so they could travel where they liked and do content when and where they wanted to. To accept any quest, fight any monster, and experience a world of adventure without limits!

So I don't think One Tamirel was implemented to make the game easier. It was implemenedt to allow for more freedom of play, which the game desperately needed.

Sounds more like they needed to fix that, not completely scrap it.

Franchise408

Vhozek wrote: »

If the server is able to maintain track of a player's level and scale everything to that person's level while at the same time taking into account the quote on quote "10 million" other player's level, then it should be able to maintain track of who has something like a "veteran mode" and scale levels differently so long as the toggle replaces the initial calculations with new calculations.

I believe the problem here is profit, not implementation.
Well, how about this? If I stop playing because it's boring, I won't buy what you put out.
This has to be the only logical conclussion. This topic has been alive for many years on the forums.

Yup.

Dungeons and trials can only hold attention for so long. If you're going to tell a significant chunk of your player base that 90% of the game's content isn't for them, then our time in game is going to be about 90% less than what it could be.

And the types of players that are being driven away are the types that would spend money in the game on subs and crowns. The type of people that would be spending money on additional DLC's and chapters. These are the kinds of people you want in your game, because they are the ones tha tinvest the most into it.

Jeremy

Vhozek wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

Vhozek wrote: »

There are people who believe everything being the same level is not a problem.

I think part of the problem is people focus too much on the level scaling.

Leveling up still gives you skill points and attributes and access to new abilities, all of which are vital to making your character more powerful. Then there is the gear progression and then finally Champion Points. So there is a lot of growth opportunity that is still inherent in the system. It's not as stagnant as it might first appear to people.

So does my opinion not matter? Because it is incredibly stagnant to me and others.
It is DREADFUL.

Of course it matters. I just don't think the problem is the level scaling itself.

The problem is - while there is plenty of room for newer players to grow and progress under the current system - there isn't for experienced players who eventually just become way too powerful for the current standard. That's why we need two One Tamriels, a normal version and then a veteran one that scales at a higher level that better accommodates veteran players.

Franchise408

spartaxoxo wrote: »

I'm just gonna share an very common piece of feedback from back when the game was harder.

The devs know more about their game and what made people quit than any or us ever could hope to, regardless of what our guilds of like-minded people tell us. They have an unbiased and non-anecdotal view of the entire playerbase. When they say that the vast majority of people will not like something and don't engage in something, they are the authority figures. We don't have the data. We don't have the uninstall feedback.

The developers do.

You cannot force vet overland.

Corporations make bad decisions re: misreading customer wants and desires all the time. It's not an uncommon thing. Online gaming in particular is notorious for not listening to what the player base wants and trying to force something in the name of what they find to be most profitable.

You have to remember, what is "profitable" isn't always what is best for the customer.

Jeremy

Vhozek wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Blackbird_V wrote: »

I don't like being "forced" to do easy overland content without choice, which is what happened with One-Tamriel.

One Tamriel was implemented 5 years ago and has been very successful for a number of reasons, one being that it addressed the difficulty that was causing a lot of players to not even play 2/3 of the content. The problem of overland being too difficult back then was bad enough that they lost a lot of players over it, because it was extremely difficult to progress.
.

It was the exact opposite problem for me.

Before One Tamriel most of the zones became way too easy. You literally could not spend any amount of time in a zone questing and exploring without completely out-leveling the content and making it irrelevant and tedious to the point enemies would not even drop you loot.

One Tamriel was designed to address this problem, and allowed players to match the difficulty of the content no matter where they were so they could travel where they liked and do content when and where they wanted to. To accept any quest, fight any monster, and experience a world of adventure without limits!

So I don't think One Tamirel was implemented to make the game easier. It was implemenedt to allow for more freedom of play, which the game desperately needed.

Sounds more like they needed to fix that, not completely scrap it.

How else would you fix it if not by scaling the content? Because that's always been a big problem with the linear level design of MMORPGs, that players tended to out-level the content and render much of the game irrelevant and boring. So I think scaling was a step in the right direction. They just need to take that next step and allow for a Veteran Scaling of the overland like they already do with dungeons.

Franchise408

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Blackbird_V wrote: »

That was clearly sarcasm what that player put. Literally sarcasm.

Franchise408 wrote: »

.
4. If any of the above mentioned compromises are too much, then I would prefer to just see a wide spread increase in difficulty across the entire game and be made mandatory, not optional. Not changing anything is unacceptable to me, so if the above mentioned (or other) compromises are too much, then just increase the difficulty of the game to engage people who have been playing for years. This is my last preference tho, but it's better than just simply not addressing the issue.

No. It was not. It was their last preference and they stated they hoped it did not come to that, but they would rather it be forced than not have any of their solutions.

How is that difference than yourself, SilverBride, and others, trying to *force* me into easy overland?

Franchise408

Wrong post...

Jeremy

SilverBride wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

So I don't think One Tamirel was implemented to make the game easier. It was implemenedt to allow for more freedom of play, which the game desperately needed.

One Tamriel did address a few issues, but difficulty was most definitely on that list.

Nothing I saw in the advertising of One Tamriel mentioned anything about making the game easier. It was all about giving players the freedom to explore Tamriel as they wished.

This game was even easier before One Tamriel. It was a complete joke for anyone who took the time to fully explore and quest in. The only zones that had any challenge to them were the "endgame" zones or zones people went to early before they were at the recommended levels.