Overland Content Feedback Thread

Mayrael

Background:

So, from One Tamriel there is a noticeable drastic decrease in overland difficulty due to the fact that it was necessary to bring all locations down to a common denominator. Unfortunately this has led to a situation where players, very quickly outgrow overland content. It's not a problem for people who play occasionally, but for every player who tries to develop their skills, it quickly leads to a situation where the game simply becomes boring.

Personally, I am a player who has helped new players endless times by creating their equipment etc. Most of them (about 70% by my rough estimation) stopped playing after 2 weeks, noticing that, unfortunately, the moment they bounce back a little, the quests start to drastically bore them.

I myself created 6 characters for One Tamriel, on which I passed zone after zone doing all the quests, because it was addictive for me. Learning to play a new character was a challenge for me. Now, unfortunately, going through the DLC almost causes me physical pain.

Advantages of increasing difficulty:

How do I resolve this situation? Of course, most of us will probably agree that by "more difficult" content we don't mean enemies with 10x more HP, because that would simply be prolonging the agony.

What we really need is to improve the AI of NPCs, increase the frequency of their attacks and their strength, so that our computer enemies pose a real threat, to take full advantage of our defensive capabilities such as roll dodge, block, heals, shields, leaving the "red circle" etc. etc. Such a solution has additional benefits, in the form of a kind of forced training for new players, who incidentally learn the basic rules of combat and more difficult content such as dungeons or trials.

More options = more satisfied players.

Disatvantages:

Unfortunately, not everyone is able to improve their skills for various reasons, and there is no shame in that. Simply raising the difficulty of an overland might create a barrier for them, and you need to make sure you don't exclude them, which is really the only valid argument against raising the difficulty in general.

On the other hand, I don't think that being lazy and saying "I want easier content because I don't want to bother" is any reason not to increase the game difficulty.

Proposed solution:
Step 1: Increase NPCs AI (or at least enrich their range of moves and increase the frequency of their attacks) and at the same time increase their damage (maybe introduce the option of critical hits from NPCs - which would increase the attractiveness of traits, sets and CPs against such damage also in PvE).

Step 2 - add optional buff, increasing our stats after each of our death in overland lasting from half to full hour (stacks up to say 5 times with cool down of 1 minute between deaths). In this way, the difficulty level will automatically adjust to the player and their level of proficiency, while making sure that every now and then they face a challenge with a higher difficulty level.

This solution has a number of benefits:
1. It works automatically without the new player having to think about how to adjust the difficulty level.
2. It doesn't require a division into vet overland and regular overland.
3. It doesn't argue with the idea introduced by One Tamriel that a new player and an experienced player can play together. On the contrary, it supports it because it allows both to have fun.
4. It does not segregate rewards by difficulty level.
5. Everyone, even the weakest player, will be able to complete quests without having to worry about whether they can handle them.
6. Allows players who are looking for a challenge to play at a higher difficulty.
7. Through buffs being temporary it encourages new players to work on their skills and equipment, because it shows them that they are not as weak as they thought and that both their skills and their character is developing - which is one of the core aspects of RPG games afterall.

Edit: some typos.

Maya_Nur

Faulgor wrote: »

Fascinating that this issue has ballooned so much that it warrants an official thread. I used to joke that there is always a thread about this on the front page, so I shouldn't be surprised.

I doubt it's always the same voices raising this issue, tho. I remember being among the first who brought this up years ago, but I haven't participated in these repetitive discussions in quite some time. Since then I have heard the same complaints from all my friends who have quit, all of which by no means min-maxers or as occupied with creating builds as I am.
That the majority of the content is unengaging at endgame is a big issue for them.

In my opinion, there are two main issues with the current situation around overland content and difficulty:

For one, the vast majority of the game's content (and newly released content) is easy as pie solo overland PvE, but once you reach "endgame" (or rather max out your character), the content focus completely flips into challenging group PvE. That means on the one side people are just not prepared for the steep rise in difficulty of group content, and on the other side solo players don't have anything left to do to keep them engaged - outside of vet Maelstrom and Vateshran perhaps.

Second, which flows from the first point, is that in solo content the whole game design falls apart once you max out your character. Because the vast majority of content is so easy, there is no incentive to make use of the games systems - acquiring new sets, upgrading, crafting, potions, poisons, companions, champion points, combat mechanics, etc. Why should I invest any time in that fluff when I can walk through 95% of the new content each year like it's nothing? That's just not good game design.
It's like playing Monopoly without dice and money - fine, you might enjoy putting all your adorable houses in a row. But it's not much of a game anymore.

I might add a 3rd point, that is more ephemeral and might not be important to as many people, but I think it's worth pointing out. The magic of an Elder Scrolls game lies in its exploration of the world, and that goes hand in hand with the dangers in that world. Being able to venture into a new area because your character is finally strong enough is a vital component of the TES experience, as is preparing for the journey. ESO has become so trivial that the journey is not any more interesting than a trip down the hall to the bathroom.

RPGs rely a lot on progression. Overcoming a new obstacle, either through adjusting your playstyle or improving our character's capabilities, that's at the core of the genre, and why I and a lot of other people enjoy it. Understandably, this cannot be accomplished indefinitely. When I play through a solo RPG in 30-40 hours, I can consider that a good time and be done with it.
Multiplayer RPGs have the disadvantage that the game just never really ends - but also the advantage that they can always add new content. Most MMOs regularly increase the level and gear caps for this reason, in addition to a higher difficulty for new content. ESO is unique in that regard, which comes with its pros and cons. I love that One Tamriel lets me explore wherever I want, with whomever I want. I love that I don't have to chase new upgrade materials every update. But it also limits my engagement with all that new content, because I'm just clicking on quest markers at this point.

Optional higher difficulty settings would address a lot of these issues, bringing more coherence to the game experience. Casual players can have a more gradual progression into the more difficult endgame content, solo players can find challenges after maxing out their characters, staying engaged for longer than the 3 days it takes to play through new quests, and everyone would profit from a higher importance of the game's systems.
And yes, of course this would be optional. That the content difficulty and your or your character's abilities have to be in sync is the whole point.

Despite claims that this would be a waste of development time, it would also be the most lightweight addition possible. All the necessary systems already exist to make this happen, because everyone scales anyway. Granting optional debuffs like Battle Spirit is absolutely trivial compared to the development of antiquities or companions. It would reinvigorate old content without the need to develop new one. It's a downright steal for the development team.

Eh... I have pressed "awesome" but then read your last words about self-nerf As you already said, RPGs about progression, growth and self-perfection, but self-debuff will just brought us in the situation where you are struggling with one mob, while someone else kills it just by passing by! Many have already said (me including) that enemies are just not trying to kill the player. I got into situations where I wanted mobs to kill me so I could return to the exist without paying gold for teleport, but they just couldn't overdamage my Iceheart shields and HP regeneration! No, my friend, I insist if we will get vOL, then it MUST have smarter enemies who either trying to kill you or struggling not to die.

Toxic_Hemlock

Mayrael wrote: »

Background:

So, from One Tamriel there is a noticeable drastic decrease in overland difficulty due to the fact that it was necessary to bring all locations down to a common denominator. Unfortunately this has led to a situation where players, very quickly outgrow overland content. It's not a problem for people who play occasionally, but for every player who tries to develop their skills, it quickly leads to a situation where the game simply becomes boring.

Personally, I am a player who has helped new players endless times by creating their equipment etc. Most of them (about 70% by my rough estimation) stopped playing after 2 weeks, noticing that, unfortunately, the moment they bounce back a little, the quests start to drastically bore them.

I myself created 6 characters for One Tamriel, on which I passed zone after zone doing all the quests, because it was addictive for me. Learning to play a new character was a challenge for me. Now, unfortunately, going through the DLC almost causes me physical pain.

Advantages of increasing difficulty:

How do I resolve this situation? Of course, most of us will probably agree that by "more difficult" content we don't mean enemies with 10x more HP, because that would simply be prolonging the agony.

What we really need is to improve the AI of NPCs, increase the frequency of their attacks and their strength, so that our computer enemies pose a real threat, to take full advantage of our defensive capabilities such as roll dodge, block, heals, shields, leaving the "red circle" etc. etc. Such a solution has additional benefits, in the form of a kind of forced training for new players, who incidentally learn the basic rules of combat and more difficult content such as dungeons or trials.

More options = more satisfied players.

Disatvantages:

Unfortunately, not everyone is able to improve their skills for various reasons, and there is no shame in that. Simply raising the difficulty of an overland might create a barrier for them, and you need to make sure you don't exclude them, which is really the only valid argument against raising the difficulty in general.

On the other hand, I don't think that being lazy and saying "I want easier content because I don't want to bother" is any reason not to increase the game difficulty.

Proposed solution:
Step 1: Increase NPCs AI (or at least enrich their range of moves and increase the frequency of their attacks) and at the same time increase their damage (maybe introduce the option of critical hits from NPCs - which would increase the attractiveness of traits, sets and CPs against such damage also in PvE).

Step 2 - add optional buff, increasing our stats after each of our death in overland lasting from half to full hour (stacks up to say 5 times with cool down of 1 minute between deaths). In this way, the difficulty level will automatically adjust to the player and their level of proficiency, while making sure that every now and then they face a challenge with a higher difficulty level.

This solution has a number of benefits:
1. It works automatically without the new player having to think about how to adjust the difficulty level.
2. It doesn't require a division into vet overland and regular overland.
3. It doesn't argue with the idea introduced by One Tamriel that a new player and an experienced player can play together. On the contrary, it supports it because it allows both to have fun.
4. It does not segregate rewards by difficulty level.
5. Everyone, even the weakest player, will be able to complete quests without having to worry about whether they can handle them.
6. Allows players who are looking for a challenge to play at a higher difficulty.
7. Through buffs being temporary it encourages new players to work on their skills and equipment, because it shows them that they are not as weak as they thought and that both their skills and their character is developing - which is one of the core aspects of RPG games afterall.

Edit: some typos.

No thanks on the AI improvements and increased damage, I like having fun for the sake of having fun. I DON'T want to have to plan 4 steps ahead of an AI just to cater to those that want to determine what "fun" should be.

Also no thanks on the optional buff. I don't want to have to die 5 times just so the overland becomes what it currently is to me. Dying is something the hero should never do and having to die over and over again to "become" heroic is just not what would interest me in the least!

If you want to introduce a potion that makes all of the above happen, but only to the drinker, than cool I am down with that as it won't hamper my fun in any way.

Also the quote:

"On the other hand, I don't think that being lazy and saying "I want easier content because I don't want to bother" is any reason not to increase the game difficulty."

Assumes you know my reasons for wanting to enjoy the game as it is, and as I don't tell the veteran players to reduce your challenge so I enjoy it more (as I don't do any vet content) I would thank you to leave my enjoyment alone.

Edit: I am starting to think I am alone in my desire here, and if that is indeed true I wish all of those in favor of a non-optional vet overland good luck. I won't be here to see it, but I'm sure someone younger will take my place.

I only hope you all stay young because when you get older someone will inevitably want to take your fun away too.

Faulgor

Maya_Nur wrote: »

Faulgor wrote: »

Fascinating that this issue has ballooned so much that it warrants an official thread. I used to joke that there is always a thread about this on the front page, so I shouldn't be surprised.

I doubt it's always the same voices raising this issue, tho. I remember being among the first who brought this up years ago, but I haven't participated in these repetitive discussions in quite some time. Since then I have heard the same complaints from all my friends who have quit, all of which by no means min-maxers or as occupied with creating builds as I am.
That the majority of the content is unengaging at endgame is a big issue for them.

In my opinion, there are two main issues with the current situation around overland content and difficulty:

For one, the vast majority of the game's content (and newly released content) is easy as pie solo overland PvE, but once you reach "endgame" (or rather max out your character), the content focus completely flips into challenging group PvE. That means on the one side people are just not prepared for the steep rise in difficulty of group content, and on the other side solo players don't have anything left to do to keep them engaged - outside of vet Maelstrom and Vateshran perhaps.

Second, which flows from the first point, is that in solo content the whole game design falls apart once you max out your character. Because the vast majority of content is so easy, there is no incentive to make use of the games systems - acquiring new sets, upgrading, crafting, potions, poisons, companions, champion points, combat mechanics, etc. Why should I invest any time in that fluff when I can walk through 95% of the new content each year like it's nothing? That's just not good game design.
It's like playing Monopoly without dice and money - fine, you might enjoy putting all your adorable houses in a row. But it's not much of a game anymore.

I might add a 3rd point, that is more ephemeral and might not be important to as many people, but I think it's worth pointing out. The magic of an Elder Scrolls game lies in its exploration of the world, and that goes hand in hand with the dangers in that world. Being able to venture into a new area because your character is finally strong enough is a vital component of the TES experience, as is preparing for the journey. ESO has become so trivial that the journey is not any more interesting than a trip down the hall to the bathroom.

RPGs rely a lot on progression. Overcoming a new obstacle, either through adjusting your playstyle or improving our character's capabilities, that's at the core of the genre, and why I and a lot of other people enjoy it. Understandably, this cannot be accomplished indefinitely. When I play through a solo RPG in 30-40 hours, I can consider that a good time and be done with it.
Multiplayer RPGs have the disadvantage that the game just never really ends - but also the advantage that they can always add new content. Most MMOs regularly increase the level and gear caps for this reason, in addition to a higher difficulty for new content. ESO is unique in that regard, which comes with its pros and cons. I love that One Tamriel lets me explore wherever I want, with whomever I want. I love that I don't have to chase new upgrade materials every update. But it also limits my engagement with all that new content, because I'm just clicking on quest markers at this point.

Optional higher difficulty settings would address a lot of these issues, bringing more coherence to the game experience. Casual players can have a more gradual progression into the more difficult endgame content, solo players can find challenges after maxing out their characters, staying engaged for longer than the 3 days it takes to play through new quests, and everyone would profit from a higher importance of the game's systems.
And yes, of course this would be optional. That the content difficulty and your or your character's abilities have to be in sync is the whole point.

Despite claims that this would be a waste of development time, it would also be the most lightweight addition possible. All the necessary systems already exist to make this happen, because everyone scales anyway. Granting optional debuffs like Battle Spirit is absolutely trivial compared to the development of antiquities or companions. It would reinvigorate old content without the need to develop new one. It's a downright steal for the development team.

Eh... I have pressed "awesome" but then read your last words about self-nerf As you already said, RPGs about progression, growth and self-perfection, but self-debuff will just brought us in the situation where you are struggling with one mob, while someone else kills it just by passing by! Many have already said (me including) that enemies are just not trying to kill the player. I got into situations where I wanted mobs to kill me so I could return to the exist without paying gold for teleport, but they just couldn't overdamage my Iceheart shields and HP regeneration! No, my friend, I insist if we will get vOL, then it MUST have smarter enemies who either trying to kill you or struggling not to die.

I feel there are already some mechanics in place that can hurt you, but there is just no reason to pay attention to them - as you said, even your Iceheart shields protect you sufficiently. I think lowering our stats would at least make us consider paying attention to the mechanics that already exist. This is also the source of the spike in difficulty between normal and veteran dungeons - in normal most groups just don't have to pay attention to the mechanics because they can power through everything.
A complete rework of overland mobs just doesn't seem feasible, because it would be an incredible amount of work, and not really desirable, because then it would no longer be optional. At that point it would be more likely to see new solo content like arenas.

Auberon1983

Toxic_Hemlock wrote: »

Mayrael wrote: »

Background:

So, from One Tamriel there is a noticeable drastic decrease in overland difficulty due to the fact that it was necessary to bring all locations down to a common denominator. Unfortunately this has led to a situation where players, very quickly outgrow overland content. It's not a problem for people who play occasionally, but for every player who tries to develop their skills, it quickly leads to a situation where the game simply becomes boring.

Personally, I am a player who has helped new players endless times by creating their equipment etc. Most of them (about 70% by my rough estimation) stopped playing after 2 weeks, noticing that, unfortunately, the moment they bounce back a little, the quests start to drastically bore them.

I myself created 6 characters for One Tamriel, on which I passed zone after zone doing all the quests, because it was addictive for me. Learning to play a new character was a challenge for me. Now, unfortunately, going through the DLC almost causes me physical pain.

Advantages of increasing difficulty:

How do I resolve this situation? Of course, most of us will probably agree that by "more difficult" content we don't mean enemies with 10x more HP, because that would simply be prolonging the agony.

What we really need is to improve the AI of NPCs, increase the frequency of their attacks and their strength, so that our computer enemies pose a real threat, to take full advantage of our defensive capabilities such as roll dodge, block, heals, shields, leaving the "red circle" etc. etc. Such a solution has additional benefits, in the form of a kind of forced training for new players, who incidentally learn the basic rules of combat and more difficult content such as dungeons or trials.

More options = more satisfied players.

Disatvantages:

Unfortunately, not everyone is able to improve their skills for various reasons, and there is no shame in that. Simply raising the difficulty of an overland might create a barrier for them, and you need to make sure you don't exclude them, which is really the only valid argument against raising the difficulty in general.

On the other hand, I don't think that being lazy and saying "I want easier content because I don't want to bother" is any reason not to increase the game difficulty.

Proposed solution:
Step 1: Increase NPCs AI (or at least enrich their range of moves and increase the frequency of their attacks) and at the same time increase their damage (maybe introduce the option of critical hits from NPCs - which would increase the attractiveness of traits, sets and CPs against such damage also in PvE).

Step 2 - add optional buff, increasing our stats after each of our death in overland lasting from half to full hour (stacks up to say 5 times with cool down of 1 minute between deaths). In this way, the difficulty level will automatically adjust to the player and their level of proficiency, while making sure that every now and then they face a challenge with a higher difficulty level.

This solution has a number of benefits:
1. It works automatically without the new player having to think about how to adjust the difficulty level.
2. It doesn't require a division into vet overland and regular overland.
3. It doesn't argue with the idea introduced by One Tamriel that a new player and an experienced player can play together. On the contrary, it supports it because it allows both to have fun.
4. It does not segregate rewards by difficulty level.
5. Everyone, even the weakest player, will be able to complete quests without having to worry about whether they can handle them.
6. Allows players who are looking for a challenge to play at a higher difficulty.
7. Through buffs being temporary it encourages new players to work on their skills and equipment, because it shows them that they are not as weak as they thought and that both their skills and their character is developing - which is one of the core aspects of RPG games afterall.

Edit: some typos.

No thanks on the AI improvements and increased damage, I like having fun for the sake of having fun. I DON'T want to have to plan 4 steps ahead of an AI just to cater to those that want to determine what "fun" should be.

Also no thanks on the optional buff. I don't want to have to die 5 times just so the overland becomes what it currently is to me. Dying is something the hero should never do and having to die over and over again to "become" heroic is just not what would interest me in the least!

If you want to introduce a potion that makes all of the above happen, but only to the drinker, than cool I am down with that as it won't hamper my fun in any way.

Also the quote:

"On the other hand, I don't think that being lazy and saying "I wan

Edit: I am starting to think I am alone in my desire here, and if that is indeed true I wish all of those in favor of a non-optional vet overland good luck. I won't be here to see it, but I'm sure someone younger will take my place.

I only hope you all stay young because when you get older someone will inevitably want to take your fun away too.

Toxic_Hemlock wrote: »

Mayrael wrote: »

Background:

So, from One Tamriel there is a noticeable drastic decrease in overland difficulty due to the fact that it was necessary to bring all locations down to a common denominator. Unfortunately this has led to a situation where players, very quickly outgrow overland content. It's not a problem for people who play occasionally, but for every player who tries to develop their skills, it quickly leads to a situation where the game simply becomes boring.

Personally, I am a player who has helped new players endless times by creating their equipment etc. Most of them (about 70% by my rough estimation) stopped playing after 2 weeks, noticing that, unfortunately, the moment they bounce back a little, the quests start to drastically bore them.

I myself created 6 characters for One Tamriel, on which I passed zone after zone doing all the quests, because it was addictive for me. Learning to play a new character was a challenge for me. Now, unfortunately, going through the DLC almost causes me physical pain.

Advantages of increasing difficulty:

How do I resolve this situation? Of course, most of us will probably agree that by "more difficult" content we don't mean enemies with 10x more HP, because that would simply be prolonging the agony.

What we really need is to improve the AI of NPCs, increase the frequency of their attacks and their strength, so that our computer enemies pose a real threat, to take full advantage of our defensive capabilities such as roll dodge, block, heals, shields, leaving the "red circle" etc. etc. Such a solution has additional benefits, in the form of a kind of forced training for new players, who incidentally learn the basic rules of combat and more difficult content such as dungeons or trials.

More options = more satisfied players.

Disatvantages:

Unfortunately, not everyone is able to improve their skills for various reasons, and there is no shame in that. Simply raising the difficulty of an overland might create a barrier for them, and you need to make sure you don't exclude them, which is really the only valid argument against raising the difficulty in general.

On the other hand, I don't think that being lazy and saying "I want easier content because I don't want to bother" is any reason not to increase the game difficulty.

Proposed solution:
Step 1: Increase NPCs AI (or at least enrich their range of moves and increase the frequency of their attacks) and at the same time increase their damage (maybe introduce the option of critical hits from NPCs - which would increase the attractiveness of traits, sets and CPs against such damage also in PvE).

Step 2 - add optional buff, increasing our stats after each of our death in overland lasting from half to full hour (stacks up to say 5 times with cool down of 1 minute between deaths). In this way, the difficulty level will automatically adjust to the player and their level of proficiency, while making sure that every now and then they face a challenge with a higher difficulty level.

This solution has a number of benefits:
1. It works automatically without the new player having to think about how to adjust the difficulty level.
2. It doesn't require a division into vet overland and regular overland.
3. It doesn't argue with the idea introduced by One Tamriel that a new player and an experienced player can play together. On the contrary, it supports it because it allows both to have fun.
4. It does not segregate rewards by difficulty level.
5. Everyone, even the weakest player, will be able to complete quests without having to worry about whether they can handle them.
6. Allows players who are looking for a challenge to play at a higher difficulty.
7. Through buffs being temporary it encourages new players to work on their skills and equipment, because it shows them that they are not as weak as they thought and that both their skills and their character is developing - which is one of the core aspects of RPG games afterall.

Edit: some typos.

No thanks on the AI improvements and increased damage, I like having fun for the sake of having fun. I DON'T want to have to plan 4 steps ahead of an AI just to cater to those that want to determine what "fun" should be.

Also no thanks on the optional buff. I don't want to have to die 5 times just so the overland becomes what it currently is to me. Dying is something the hero should never do and having to die over and over again to "become" heroic is just not what would interest me in the least!

If you want to introduce a potion that makes all of the above happen, but only to the drinker, than cool I am down with that as it won't hamper my fun in any way.

Also the quote:

"On the other hand, I don't think that being lazy and saying "I want easier content because I don't want to bother" is any reason not to increase the game difficulty."

Assumes you know my reasons for wanting to enjoy the game as it is, and as I don't tell the veteran players to reduce your challenge so I enjoy it more (as I don't do any vet content) I would thank you to leave my enjoyment alone.

Edit: I am starting to think I am alone in my desire here, and if that is indeed true I wish all of those in favor of a non-optional vet overland good luck. I won't be here to see it, but I'm sure someone younger will take my place.

I only hope you all stay young because when you get older someone will inevitably want to take your fun away too.

I assure you, you aren't alone in not wanting non-optional difficulty increases. I don't want "true overland" to change at all, or if it does, strictly optional. Similar to my suggestion to strictly optional harder story boss fights.

As my screen name suggests, I'm in my late 30's. I have a wife, twin daughters, we moved my mother in with us last year because of her health, a full time career, a mortgage, five cats, two dogs, bills, etc. It's why I don't play games like Dark Souls/Bloodborne. I'm terrible at them, largely because I completely lack the time to "git gud". I get maybe 2-3 hours a day to game. Old farts like me just don't have the time we used to have.

So I know I'm not alone. Plenty of ESO players are in my shoes. If I get two hours to say, do Antiquities, I don't want to spend 50%+ of that in prolonged combat with Harpies or Bandits.

I do, though, have to remind myself that there are much younger players, too, who don't have that laundry list of responsibilities (IN NO WAY AM I SAYING YOUNG PEOPLE ARE IRRESPONSIBLE), and they shouldn't. An 18 year old living with their parents shouldn't have all those things. I have to remember they DO have the time to "git gud". I can definitely see why they would want a much harder game.

That's why I propose a compromise: totally optional harder content. Let's also not forget the people that main Tanks. I cannot expect a player who does maybe 2k damage per light attack to fight a boss with 3M+ health solo.

Also, sorry if anyone feels I'm generalizing, because I am. There are playersy age with hours of free time, and younger players with less time than me. I know this. I was just using player age as an example.

Toxic_Hemlock

@Auberon1983

I can only wish I was in my late 30's

StevieKingslayer

One extra aside; Have you guys seen the animations of the new mobs in the new land?
Im betting most of you havent, because they are being killed to quickly.

I went to the new land, and was running around with invis pots to investigate the mobs, they looked so cool - and as it turns out, if you trigger combat with them - The paindancers I believe they are called especially, have some WICKED new moves we've never seen before. It was so damn cool. But....we never get to see any of these. A dude came along lower level than me and oneshot everything we were looking at

This is why I want mobs with a little more backbone, I mean...Zenimax designed these AMAZING new combat moves for the enemy npcs, I mean even the staff users....I saw one slam down their staff and it was so damn cool. But we never would have seen that, if we had attacked them. We were just taunting them and then standing there pushing absolutely nothing so we could even see their rotation of moves, and then -always- someone comes along and just oneshots them.

These are big bad daedra....we shouldnt be able to just...idk flick them away like their nothing. Zenimax put alot of effort into those new combat animations I can tell, and I was so excited to see them as briefly as I could. For everyone arguing "resources of the dev team", I mean....it's wasted resources what their doing right now in the current state of overland Their spending all this time programming these cool things no one ever sees if they attack the enemy with more than a rock.

I urge you all to go and see for yourself the new npc animation (just run up to them and dont attack, let them attack you for a bit, just shield) and ask yourself if you see the effort and work they put into it - and then ask if it's worth adding even just a little more health to them so you can see some of those moves more often. Otherwise why do we bother having a team that pours their heart into the overland combat, only for its audience to never see it and appreciate the work of art that it is.

Mayrael

Toxic_Hemlock wrote: »

Mayrael wrote: »

Background:

So, from One Tamriel there is a noticeable drastic decrease in overland difficulty due to the fact that it was necessary to bring all locations down to a common denominator. Unfortunately this has led to a situation where players, very quickly outgrow overland content. It's not a problem for people who play occasionally, but for every player who tries to develop their skills, it quickly leads to a situation where the game simply becomes boring.

Personally, I am a player who has helped new players endless times by creating their equipment etc. Most of them (about 70% by my rough estimation) stopped playing after 2 weeks, noticing that, unfortunately, the moment they bounce back a little, the quests start to drastically bore them.

I myself created 6 characters for One Tamriel, on which I passed zone after zone doing all the quests, because it was addictive for me. Learning to play a new character was a challenge for me. Now, unfortunately, going through the DLC almost causes me physical pain.

Advantages of increasing difficulty:

How do I resolve this situation? Of course, most of us will probably agree that by "more difficult" content we don't mean enemies with 10x more HP, because that would simply be prolonging the agony.

What we really need is to improve the AI of NPCs, increase the frequency of their attacks and their strength, so that our computer enemies pose a real threat, to take full advantage of our defensive capabilities such as roll dodge, block, heals, shields, leaving the "red circle" etc. etc. Such a solution has additional benefits, in the form of a kind of forced training for new players, who incidentally learn the basic rules of combat and more difficult content such as dungeons or trials.

More options = more satisfied players.

Disatvantages:

Unfortunately, not everyone is able to improve their skills for various reasons, and there is no shame in that. Simply raising the difficulty of an overland might create a barrier for them, and you need to make sure you don't exclude them, which is really the only valid argument against raising the difficulty in general.

On the other hand, I don't think that being lazy and saying "I want easier content because I don't want to bother" is any reason not to increase the game difficulty.

Proposed solution:
Step 1: Increase NPCs AI (or at least enrich their range of moves and increase the frequency of their attacks) and at the same time increase their damage (maybe introduce the option of critical hits from NPCs - which would increase the attractiveness of traits, sets and CPs against such damage also in PvE).

Step 2 - add optional buff, increasing our stats after each of our death in overland lasting from half to full hour (stacks up to say 5 times with cool down of 1 minute between deaths). In this way, the difficulty level will automatically adjust to the player and their level of proficiency, while making sure that every now and then they face a challenge with a higher difficulty level.

This solution has a number of benefits:
1. It works automatically without the new player having to think about how to adjust the difficulty level.
2. It doesn't require a division into vet overland and regular overland.
3. It doesn't argue with the idea introduced by One Tamriel that a new player and an experienced player can play together. On the contrary, it supports it because it allows both to have fun.
4. It does not segregate rewards by difficulty level.
5. Everyone, even the weakest player, will be able to complete quests without having to worry about whether they can handle them.
6. Allows players who are looking for a challenge to play at a higher difficulty.
7. Through buffs being temporary it encourages new players to work on their skills and equipment, because it shows them that they are not as weak as they thought and that both their skills and their character is developing - which is one of the core aspects of RPG games afterall.

Edit: some typos.

No thanks on the AI improvements and increased damage, I like having fun for the sake of having fun. I DON'T want to have to plan 4 steps ahead of an AI just to cater to those that want to determine what "fun" should be.

Also no thanks on the optional buff. I don't want to have to die 5 times just so the overland becomes what it currently is to me. Dying is something the hero should never do and having to die over and over again to "become" heroic is just not what would interest me in the least!

If you want to introduce a potion that makes all of the above happen, but only to the drinker, than cool I am down with that as it won't hamper my fun in any way.

Also the quote:

"On the other hand, I don't think that being lazy and saying "I want easier content because I don't want to bother" is any reason not to increase the game difficulty."

Assumes you know my reasons for wanting to enjoy the game as it is, and as I don't tell the veteran players to reduce your challenge so I enjoy it more (as I don't do any vet content) I would thank you to leave my enjoyment alone.

Edit: I am starting to think I am alone in my desire here, and if that is indeed true I wish all of those in favor of a non-optional vet overland good luck. I won't be here to see it, but I'm sure someone younger will take my place.

I only hope you all stay young because when you get older someone will inevitably want to take your fun away too.

So basically your fun is more important than someone's fun? And just because you don't like some idea (heroes don't die) you want limit others from having fun? That idea doesn't limit your fun, you will still be able to do what you do or even more, you will learn something new, but just because you don't like some minor changes, you want to ruin fun for thousands of other people? You don't even try to understand the other side and you don't want to find a solution that would allow everyone to have fun, you just care about your self and preserving current status quo. This is not the way to solve a problem.

Araxyte

StevieKingslayer wrote: »

One extra aside; Have you guys seen the animations of the new mobs in the new land?
Im betting most of you havent, because they are being killed to quickly.

This. The amount of time devs must have spent making these new models, animations and combat mechanics, especially for the bosses, just for them to get wasted by a couple abilities. And no, you don't need to be max cp with top gear to kill them quickly. You can practically light attack them to death in seconds whilst naked.

The fact of the matter is, this issue seems to be gaining traction whether people like it or not. It's no good stating what Rich or any other zos employee has said on the matter when they're looking at the data pre One Tamriel. Yes the game is more successful than ever, but that is possibly due to other factors such as an increased interest in video games as a whole, the pandemic, other MMO's not doing so well, etc...

I would like to play the main part of this game, quests, the way I want. Just as the casual players on this thread want to play quests in their own way. I'm all up for story mode in dungeons and trials as some have suggested, but I'm also for vet mode overland. I'm sure Zos could find a way, whether it be taking one of the existing overland instances and making vet, or giving the player an item which debuffs them. There has to be something.

_Zathras_

Toxic_Hemlock wrote: »

Edit: I am starting to think I am alone in my desire here, and if that is indeed true I wish all of those in favor of a non-optional vet overland good luck. I won't be here to see it, but I'm sure someone younger will take my place.

I only hope you all stay young because when you get older someone will inevitably want to take your fun away too.

You aren't alone. As I quoted on the first page, straight from Rich Lambert, this is an old topic and they simply aren't interested in increasing the overland difficulty level. If people want a challenge, there are places they can go to do so.

So, while this thread did get stickied, it is a focus for the people who want to keep discussing it, rather than creating multitudes of threads again and again.

In this thread, you won't win against the opposing voices. In the actual game, things will remain the same, with a spectrum of difficulty that makes the game accessible to a broader audience.

You're just going to beat your head against a wall here.

Araxyte

_Zathras_ wrote: »

Toxic_Hemlock wrote: »

Edit: I am starting to think I am alone in my desire here, and if that is indeed true I wish all of those in favor of a non-optional vet overland good luck. I won't be here to see it, but I'm sure someone younger will take my place.

I only hope you all stay young because when you get older someone will inevitably want to take your fun away too.

You aren't alone. As I quoted on the first page, straight from Rich Lambert, this is an old topic and they simply aren't interested in increasing the overland difficulty level. If people want a challenge, there are places they can go to do so.

So, while this thread did get stickied, it is a focus for the people who want to keep discussing it, rather than creating multitudes of threads again and again.

In this thread, you won't win against the opposing voices. In the actual game, things will remain the same, with a spectrum of difficulty that makes the game accessible to a broader audience.

You're just going to beat your head against a wall here.

A few points here:

• Overland is the majority of the game, why should some have fun with it and others not?
• Most of us are asking for optional, would this really cause you guys to quit? I don't want any of you to quit, that would be bad for everyone.
• The reason ZOS are hesitant with this is the general opinion of pre One Tamriel. The game has changed so much since then - power creep. People are getting stronger in terms of stats and ability to play, you can see this when running pug dungeons and trials. Pug groups are alot stronger now days.

Ravensilver

Toxic_Hemlock wrote: »

@Auberon1983

I can only wish I was in my late 30's

Oh Gods, yes!

That's so long ago, I'm not even sure I remember...

Toxic_Hemlock

Mayrael wrote: »

Toxic_Hemlock wrote: »

Mayrael wrote: »

Background:

So, from One Tamriel there is a noticeable drastic decrease in overland difficulty due to the fact that it was necessary to bring all locations down to a common denominator. Unfortunately this has led to a situation where players, very quickly outgrow overland content. It's not a problem for people who play occasionally, but for every player who tries to develop their skills, it quickly leads to a situation where the game simply becomes boring.

Personally, I am a player who has helped new players endless times by creating their equipment etc. Most of them (about 70% by my rough estimation) stopped playing after 2 weeks, noticing that, unfortunately, the moment they bounce back a little, the quests start to drastically bore them.

I myself created 6 characters for One Tamriel, on which I passed zone after zone doing all the quests, because it was addictive for me. Learning to play a new character was a challenge for me. Now, unfortunately, going through the DLC almost causes me physical pain.

Advantages of increasing difficulty:

How do I resolve this situation? Of course, most of us will probably agree that by "more difficult" content we don't mean enemies with 10x more HP, because that would simply be prolonging the agony.

What we really need is to improve the AI of NPCs, increase the frequency of their attacks and their strength, so that our computer enemies pose a real threat, to take full advantage of our defensive capabilities such as roll dodge, block, heals, shields, leaving the "red circle" etc. etc. Such a solution has additional benefits, in the form of a kind of forced training for new players, who incidentally learn the basic rules of combat and more difficult content such as dungeons or trials.

More options = more satisfied players.

Disatvantages:

Unfortunately, not everyone is able to improve their skills for various reasons, and there is no shame in that. Simply raising the difficulty of an overland might create a barrier for them, and you need to make sure you don't exclude them, which is really the only valid argument against raising the difficulty in general.

On the other hand, I don't think that being lazy and saying "I want easier content because I don't want to bother" is any reason not to increase the game difficulty.

Proposed solution:
Step 1: Increase NPCs AI (or at least enrich their range of moves and increase the frequency of their attacks) and at the same time increase their damage (maybe introduce the option of critical hits from NPCs - which would increase the attractiveness of traits, sets and CPs against such damage also in PvE).

Step 2 - add optional buff, increasing our stats after each of our death in overland lasting from half to full hour (stacks up to say 5 times with cool down of 1 minute between deaths). In this way, the difficulty level will automatically adjust to the player and their level of proficiency, while making sure that every now and then they face a challenge with a higher difficulty level.

This solution has a number of benefits:
1. It works automatically without the new player having to think about how to adjust the difficulty level.
2. It doesn't require a division into vet overland and regular overland.
3. It doesn't argue with the idea introduced by One Tamriel that a new player and an experienced player can play together. On the contrary, it supports it because it allows both to have fun.
4. It does not segregate rewards by difficulty level.
5. Everyone, even the weakest player, will be able to complete quests without having to worry about whether they can handle them.
6. Allows players who are looking for a challenge to play at a higher difficulty.
7. Through buffs being temporary it encourages new players to work on their skills and equipment, because it shows them that they are not as weak as they thought and that both their skills and their character is developing - which is one of the core aspects of RPG games afterall.

Edit: some typos.

No thanks on the AI improvements and increased damage, I like having fun for the sake of having fun. I DON'T want to have to plan 4 steps ahead of an AI just to cater to those that want to determine what "fun" should be.

Also no thanks on the optional buff. I don't want to have to die 5 times just so the overland becomes what it currently is to me. Dying is something the hero should never do and having to die over and over again to "become" heroic is just not what would interest me in the least!

If you want to introduce a potion that makes all of the above happen, but only to the drinker, than cool I am down with that as it won't hamper my fun in any way.

Also the quote:

"On the other hand, I don't think that being lazy and saying "I want easier content because I don't want to bother" is any reason not to increase the game difficulty."

Assumes you know my reasons for wanting to enjoy the game as it is, and as I don't tell the veteran players to reduce your challenge so I enjoy it more (as I don't do any vet content) I would thank you to leave my enjoyment alone.

Edit: I am starting to think I am alone in my desire here, and if that is indeed true I wish all of those in favor of a non-optional vet overland good luck. I won't be here to see it, but I'm sure someone younger will take my place.

I only hope you all stay young because when you get older someone will inevitably want to take your fun away too.

So basically your fun is more important than someone's fun? And just because you don't like some idea (heroes don't die) you want limit others from having fun? That idea doesn't limit your fun, you will still be able to do what you do or even more, you will learn something new, but just because you don't like some minor changes, you want to ruin fun for thousands of other people? You don't even try to understand the other side and you don't want to find a solution that would allow everyone to have fun, you just care about your self and preserving current status quo. This is not the way to solve a problem.

You are reading it wrong. My fun is no more or less important than that of anyone else, and I'll prove it to you...

My point was simply that I am happy with the way it is currently, and if made optional I don't care what is added, within reason. That reason being DEVELOPER TIME. The changes you purpose will take TONS of time to implement (new AI? are you kidding me?) and in doing so you will remove fun from everyone (understanding enough for ya) while they wait possibly years to get new content. Many of us, I am sure, don't want to become stronger, nor do we want to be challenged when we play a game just to quest. As has been said WE DON"T WANT TO PLAY DARK SOULS when we are just out questing!

An optional self nerfing potion could be added much easier as hinder health potions are already in the base game and could be modified easier. If you truly only want a challenge then these would suit the bill IMO; OK you wouldn't get a shiny new AI but then again the rest of us could enjoy some new content within this decade.

Amottica

Faulgor wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

Rudrani wrote: »

If people wanna enjoy the story without a fight, make a movie.
No serious, keep normal overland the way it is, but allow a vet instance for people that want it.

And RIch said it is not that simple. Seriously. Those were his words answering the question about an optional higher difficulty.

Even beyond that Rich indicated that the game became immensely more successful with the current design.

Source? I haven't kept up with the discussion in a few months, and am not used to devs talking to us in the first place lol

@Faulgor

The video is linked somewhere in the thread I am linking. Have at it and you will find I kept things very much in context.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/588060/800k-people-dont-seem-to-mind-difficult-overworld/p1

Mayrael

Toxic_Hemlock wrote: »

Mayrael wrote: »

Toxic_Hemlock wrote: »

Mayrael wrote: »

Background:

So, from One Tamriel there is a noticeable drastic decrease in overland difficulty due to the fact that it was necessary to bring all locations down to a common denominator. Unfortunately this has led to a situation where players, very quickly outgrow overland content. It's not a problem for people who play occasionally, but for every player who tries to develop their skills, it quickly leads to a situation where the game simply becomes boring.

Personally, I am a player who has helped new players endless times by creating their equipment etc. Most of them (about 70% by my rough estimation) stopped playing after 2 weeks, noticing that, unfortunately, the moment they bounce back a little, the quests start to drastically bore them.

I myself created 6 characters for One Tamriel, on which I passed zone after zone doing all the quests, because it was addictive for me. Learning to play a new character was a challenge for me. Now, unfortunately, going through the DLC almost causes me physical pain.

Advantages of increasing difficulty:

How do I resolve this situation? Of course, most of us will probably agree that by "more difficult" content we don't mean enemies with 10x more HP, because that would simply be prolonging the agony.

What we really need is to improve the AI of NPCs, increase the frequency of their attacks and their strength, so that our computer enemies pose a real threat, to take full advantage of our defensive capabilities such as roll dodge, block, heals, shields, leaving the "red circle" etc. etc. Such a solution has additional benefits, in the form of a kind of forced training for new players, who incidentally learn the basic rules of combat and more difficult content such as dungeons or trials.

More options = more satisfied players.

Disatvantages:

Unfortunately, not everyone is able to improve their skills for various reasons, and there is no shame in that. Simply raising the difficulty of an overland might create a barrier for them, and you need to make sure you don't exclude them, which is really the only valid argument against raising the difficulty in general.

On the other hand, I don't think that being lazy and saying "I want easier content because I don't want to bother" is any reason not to increase the game difficulty.

Proposed solution:
Step 1: Increase NPCs AI (or at least enrich their range of moves and increase the frequency of their attacks) and at the same time increase their damage (maybe introduce the option of critical hits from NPCs - which would increase the attractiveness of traits, sets and CPs against such damage also in PvE).

Step 2 - add optional buff, increasing our stats after each of our death in overland lasting from half to full hour (stacks up to say 5 times with cool down of 1 minute between deaths). In this way, the difficulty level will automatically adjust to the player and their level of proficiency, while making sure that every now and then they face a challenge with a higher difficulty level.

This solution has a number of benefits:
1. It works automatically without the new player having to think about how to adjust the difficulty level.
2. It doesn't require a division into vet overland and regular overland.
3. It doesn't argue with the idea introduced by One Tamriel that a new player and an experienced player can play together. On the contrary, it supports it because it allows both to have fun.
4. It does not segregate rewards by difficulty level.
5. Everyone, even the weakest player, will be able to complete quests without having to worry about whether they can handle them.
6. Allows players who are looking for a challenge to play at a higher difficulty.
7. Through buffs being temporary it encourages new players to work on their skills and equipment, because it shows them that they are not as weak as they thought and that both their skills and their character is developing - which is one of the core aspects of RPG games afterall.

Edit: some typos.

No thanks on the AI improvements and increased damage, I like having fun for the sake of having fun. I DON'T want to have to plan 4 steps ahead of an AI just to cater to those that want to determine what "fun" should be.

Also no thanks on the optional buff. I don't want to have to die 5 times just so the overland becomes what it currently is to me. Dying is something the hero should never do and having to die over and over again to "become" heroic is just not what would interest me in the least!

If you want to introduce a potion that makes all of the above happen, but only to the drinker, than cool I am down with that as it won't hamper my fun in any way.

Also the quote:

"On the other hand, I don't think that being lazy and saying "I want easier content because I don't want to bother" is any reason not to increase the game difficulty."

Assumes you know my reasons for wanting to enjoy the game as it is, and as I don't tell the veteran players to reduce your challenge so I enjoy it more (as I don't do any vet content) I would thank you to leave my enjoyment alone.

Edit: I am starting to think I am alone in my desire here, and if that is indeed true I wish all of those in favor of a non-optional vet overland good luck. I won't be here to see it, but I'm sure someone younger will take my place.

I only hope you all stay young because when you get older someone will inevitably want to take your fun away too.

So basically your fun is more important than someone's fun? And just because you don't like some idea (heroes don't die) you want limit others from having fun? That idea doesn't limit your fun, you will still be able to do what you do or even more, you will learn something new, but just because you don't like some minor changes, you want to ruin fun for thousands of other people? You don't even try to understand the other side and you don't want to find a solution that would allow everyone to have fun, you just care about your self and preserving current status quo. This is not the way to solve a problem.

You are reading it wrong. My fun is no more or less important than that of anyone else, and I'll prove it to you...

My point was simply that I am happy with the way it is currently, and if made optional I don't care what is added, within reason. That reason being DEVELOPER TIME. The changes you purpose will take TONS of time to implement (new AI? are you kidding me?) and in doing so you will remove fun from everyone (understanding enough for ya) while they wait possibly years to get new content. Many of us, I am sure, don't want to become stronger, nor do we want to be challenged when we play a game just to quest. As has been said WE DON"T WANT TO PLAY DARK SOULS when we are just out questing!

An optional self nerfing potion could be added much easier as hinder health potions are already in the base game and could be modified easier. If you truly only want a challenge then these would suit the bill IMO; OK you wouldn't get a shiny new AI but then again the rest of us could enjoy some new content within this decade.

You are deceiving yourself. When a proposition about content difficulty is made that cannot be negated in any way it always, but always, falls flat about ZOS resources. This is not your or any of our business, because we have absolutely no knowledge on this subject and building any argument on guesswork is pointless.

The new AI as I put it in brackets does not have to be anything advanced. Just a few patterns of new behavior for most of the mobs, because they use the same ones anyway. Increasing the frequency and strength of attacks is not particularly demanding, it doesn't require new logic, just changing values in existing functions. New doesn't mean complicated.

And optional nerf the only thing that will introduce is that instead of more interesting fights we will only have longer fights and as I wrote no one wants that. Nobody wants to do DPS parse every time in the fight, we want the fight to be more engaging, so that we have to actively block, dodge, heal, etc. and to do this we need to change the behavior of mobs, at least minimally. On the other hand, if someone couldn't handle such mechanics on lower difficulty levels even if they got a full combo from an NPC their HP wouldn't budge much as it is now. There's nothing about this that would hinder your game in any way. NOTHING!

And like I said, let the ZOS decide how to allocate their resources, because only they know the actual amount of work needed to make such changes. The hyperbole of saying "years without new content" is exaggerated and you know it, because somehow the change in the other direction i.e. when One Tamriel was introduced didn't take ZOS whole years, so a subtle change in NPC behavior shouldn't take them more. Logic is your friend.

Hallothiel

A new AI is not optional. That is the issue.

Other suggestions at least stress that they should be optional, and which is about the only thing agreed upon.

Toxic_Hemlock

Mayrael wrote: »

Toxic_Hemlock wrote: »

Mayrael wrote: »

Toxic_Hemlock wrote: »

Mayrael wrote: »

Background:

So, from One Tamriel there is a noticeable drastic decrease in overland difficulty due to the fact that it was necessary to bring all locations down to a common denominator. Unfortunately this has led to a situation where players, very quickly outgrow overland content. It's not a problem for people who play occasionally, but for every player who tries to develop their skills, it quickly leads to a situation where the game simply becomes boring.

Personally, I am a player who has helped new players endless times by creating their equipment etc. Most of them (about 70% by my rough estimation) stopped playing after 2 weeks, noticing that, unfortunately, the moment they bounce back a little, the quests start to drastically bore them.

I myself created 6 characters for One Tamriel, on which I passed zone after zone doing all the quests, because it was addictive for me. Learning to play a new character was a challenge for me. Now, unfortunately, going through the DLC almost causes me physical pain.

Advantages of increasing difficulty:

How do I resolve this situation? Of course, most of us will probably agree that by "more difficult" content we don't mean enemies with 10x more HP, because that would simply be prolonging the agony.

What we really need is to improve the AI of NPCs, increase the frequency of their attacks and their strength, so that our computer enemies pose a real threat, to take full advantage of our defensive capabilities such as roll dodge, block, heals, shields, leaving the "red circle" etc. etc. Such a solution has additional benefits, in the form of a kind of forced training for new players, who incidentally learn the basic rules of combat and more difficult content such as dungeons or trials.

More options = more satisfied players.

Disatvantages:

Unfortunately, not everyone is able to improve their skills for various reasons, and there is no shame in that. Simply raising the difficulty of an overland might create a barrier for them, and you need to make sure you don't exclude them, which is really the only valid argument against raising the difficulty in general.

On the other hand, I don't think that being lazy and saying "I want easier content because I don't want to bother" is any reason not to increase the game difficulty.

Proposed solution:
Step 1: Increase NPCs AI (or at least enrich their range of moves and increase the frequency of their attacks) and at the same time increase their damage (maybe introduce the option of critical hits from NPCs - which would increase the attractiveness of traits, sets and CPs against such damage also in PvE).

Step 2 - add optional buff, increasing our stats after each of our death in overland lasting from half to full hour (stacks up to say 5 times with cool down of 1 minute between deaths). In this way, the difficulty level will automatically adjust to the player and their level of proficiency, while making sure that every now and then they face a challenge with a higher difficulty level.

This solution has a number of benefits:
1. It works automatically without the new player having to think about how to adjust the difficulty level.
2. It doesn't require a division into vet overland and regular overland.
3. It doesn't argue with the idea introduced by One Tamriel that a new player and an experienced player can play together. On the contrary, it supports it because it allows both to have fun.
4. It does not segregate rewards by difficulty level.
5. Everyone, even the weakest player, will be able to complete quests without having to worry about whether they can handle them.
6. Allows players who are looking for a challenge to play at a higher difficulty.
7. Through buffs being temporary it encourages new players to work on their skills and equipment, because it shows them that they are not as weak as they thought and that both their skills and their character is developing - which is one of the core aspects of RPG games afterall.

Edit: some typos.

No thanks on the AI improvements and increased damage, I like having fun for the sake of having fun. I DON'T want to have to plan 4 steps ahead of an AI just to cater to those that want to determine what "fun" should be.

Also no thanks on the optional buff. I don't want to have to die 5 times just so the overland becomes what it currently is to me. Dying is something the hero should never do and having to die over and over again to "become" heroic is just not what would interest me in the least!

If you want to introduce a potion that makes all of the above happen, but only to the drinker, than cool I am down with that as it won't hamper my fun in any way.

Also the quote:

"On the other hand, I don't think that being lazy and saying "I want easier content because I don't want to bother" is any reason not to increase the game difficulty."

Assumes you know my reasons for wanting to enjoy the game as it is, and as I don't tell the veteran players to reduce your challenge so I enjoy it more (as I don't do any vet content) I would thank you to leave my enjoyment alone.

Edit: I am starting to think I am alone in my desire here, and if that is indeed true I wish all of those in favor of a non-optional vet overland good luck. I won't be here to see it, but I'm sure someone younger will take my place.

I only hope you all stay young because when you get older someone will inevitably want to take your fun away too.

So basically your fun is more important than someone's fun? And just because you don't like some idea (heroes don't die) you want limit others from having fun? That idea doesn't limit your fun, you will still be able to do what you do or even more, you will learn something new, but just because you don't like some minor changes, you want to ruin fun for thousands of other people? You don't even try to understand the other side and you don't want to find a solution that would allow everyone to have fun, you just care about your self and preserving current status quo. This is not the way to solve a problem.

You are reading it wrong. My fun is no more or less important than that of anyone else, and I'll prove it to you...

My point was simply that I am happy with the way it is currently, and if made optional I don't care what is added, within reason. That reason being DEVELOPER TIME. The changes you purpose will take TONS of time to implement (new AI? are you kidding me?) and in doing so you will remove fun from everyone (understanding enough for ya) while they wait possibly years to get new content. Many of us, I am sure, don't want to become stronger, nor do we want to be challenged when we play a game just to quest. As has been said WE DON"T WANT TO PLAY DARK SOULS when we are just out questing!

An optional self nerfing potion could be added much easier as hinder health potions are already in the base game and could be modified easier. If you truly only want a challenge then these would suit the bill IMO; OK you wouldn't get a shiny new AI but then again the rest of us could enjoy some new content within this decade.

You are deceiving yourself. When a proposition about content difficulty is made that cannot be negated in any way it always, but always, falls flat about ZOS resources. This is not your or any of our business, because we have absolutely no knowledge on this subject and building any argument on guesswork is pointless.

The new AI as I put it in brackets does not have to be anything advanced. Just a few patterns of new behavior for most of the mobs, because they use the same ones anyway. Increasing the frequency and strength of attacks is not particularly demanding, it doesn't require new logic, just changing values in existing functions. New doesn't mean complicated.

And optional nerf the only thing that will introduce is that instead of more interesting fights we will only have longer fights and as I wrote no one wants that. Nobody wants to do DPS parse every time in the fight, we want the fight to be more engaging, so that we have to actively block, dodge, heal, etc. and to do this we need to change the behavior of mobs, at least minimally. On the other hand, if someone couldn't handle such mechanics on lower difficulty levels even if they got a full combo from an NPC their HP wouldn't budge much as it is now. There's nothing about this that would hinder your game in any way. NOTHING!

And like I said, let the ZOS decide how to allocate their resources, because only they know the actual amount of work needed to make such changes. The hyperbole of saying "years without new content" is exaggerated and you know it, because somehow the change in the other direction i.e. when One Tamriel was introduced didn't take ZOS whole years, so a subtle change in NPC behavior shouldn't take them more. Logic is your friend.

Ok so we are on the same page here you want to, at minimum, adjust the behavior of every npc, critter, monster etc. etc. even with overlap it will still take time that (even though we don't know the resources available) to implement. This time could be much better spent IMO.

I cannot speak for others here, but if I suddenly find myself dying over and over in a game I used to play on a casual basis, I won't even try to "get gud" I'll just leave. Hopefully ZOS gives enough notice to cancel my sub first though. Frustration is not why I choose a game, I come to this game to relax. My last MMO decided to "up the difficulty" of the overland hence it became my "last" MMO. Here's the thing you are not getting, being challenged loosing all its luster when you are faced with enough "challenge" just getting out of bed in the morning. An optional switch (potion, spell) is the only thing I would like to see here.

Lets just say we will never agree on your proposal and leave it at that, I need sleep anyways.

Mayrael

Toxic_Hemlock wrote: »

Mayrael wrote: »

Toxic_Hemlock wrote: »

Mayrael wrote: »

Toxic_Hemlock wrote: »

Mayrael wrote: »

Background:

So, from One Tamriel there is a noticeable drastic decrease in overland difficulty due to the fact that it was necessary to bring all locations down to a common denominator. Unfortunately this has led to a situation where players, very quickly outgrow overland content. It's not a problem for people who play occasionally, but for every player who tries to develop their skills, it quickly leads to a situation where the game simply becomes boring.

Personally, I am a player who has helped new players endless times by creating their equipment etc. Most of them (about 70% by my rough estimation) stopped playing after 2 weeks, noticing that, unfortunately, the moment they bounce back a little, the quests start to drastically bore them.

I myself created 6 characters for One Tamriel, on which I passed zone after zone doing all the quests, because it was addictive for me. Learning to play a new character was a challenge for me. Now, unfortunately, going through the DLC almost causes me physical pain.

Advantages of increasing difficulty:

How do I resolve this situation? Of course, most of us will probably agree that by "more difficult" content we don't mean enemies with 10x more HP, because that would simply be prolonging the agony.

What we really need is to improve the AI of NPCs, increase the frequency of their attacks and their strength, so that our computer enemies pose a real threat, to take full advantage of our defensive capabilities such as roll dodge, block, heals, shields, leaving the "red circle" etc. etc. Such a solution has additional benefits, in the form of a kind of forced training for new players, who incidentally learn the basic rules of combat and more difficult content such as dungeons or trials.

More options = more satisfied players.

Disatvantages:

Unfortunately, not everyone is able to improve their skills for various reasons, and there is no shame in that. Simply raising the difficulty of an overland might create a barrier for them, and you need to make sure you don't exclude them, which is really the only valid argument against raising the difficulty in general.

On the other hand, I don't think that being lazy and saying "I want easier content because I don't want to bother" is any reason not to increase the game difficulty.

Proposed solution:
Step 1: Increase NPCs AI (or at least enrich their range of moves and increase the frequency of their attacks) and at the same time increase their damage (maybe introduce the option of critical hits from NPCs - which would increase the attractiveness of traits, sets and CPs against such damage also in PvE).

Step 2 - add optional buff, increasing our stats after each of our death in overland lasting from half to full hour (stacks up to say 5 times with cool down of 1 minute between deaths). In this way, the difficulty level will automatically adjust to the player and their level of proficiency, while making sure that every now and then they face a challenge with a higher difficulty level.

This solution has a number of benefits:
1. It works automatically without the new player having to think about how to adjust the difficulty level.
2. It doesn't require a division into vet overland and regular overland.
3. It doesn't argue with the idea introduced by One Tamriel that a new player and an experienced player can play together. On the contrary, it supports it because it allows both to have fun.
4. It does not segregate rewards by difficulty level.
5. Everyone, even the weakest player, will be able to complete quests without having to worry about whether they can handle them.
6. Allows players who are looking for a challenge to play at a higher difficulty.
7. Through buffs being temporary it encourages new players to work on their skills and equipment, because it shows them that they are not as weak as they thought and that both their skills and their character is developing - which is one of the core aspects of RPG games afterall.

Edit: some typos.

No thanks on the AI improvements and increased damage, I like having fun for the sake of having fun. I DON'T want to have to plan 4 steps ahead of an AI just to cater to those that want to determine what "fun" should be.

Also no thanks on the optional buff. I don't want to have to die 5 times just so the overland becomes what it currently is to me. Dying is something the hero should never do and having to die over and over again to "become" heroic is just not what would interest me in the least!

If you want to introduce a potion that makes all of the above happen, but only to the drinker, than cool I am down with that as it won't hamper my fun in any way.

Also the quote:

"On the other hand, I don't think that being lazy and saying "I want easier content because I don't want to bother" is any reason not to increase the game difficulty."

Assumes you know my reasons for wanting to enjoy the game as it is, and as I don't tell the veteran players to reduce your challenge so I enjoy it more (as I don't do any vet content) I would thank you to leave my enjoyment alone.

Edit: I am starting to think I am alone in my desire here, and if that is indeed true I wish all of those in favor of a non-optional vet overland good luck. I won't be here to see it, but I'm sure someone younger will take my place.

I only hope you all stay young because when you get older someone will inevitably want to take your fun away too.

So basically your fun is more important than someone's fun? And just because you don't like some idea (heroes don't die) you want limit others from having fun? That idea doesn't limit your fun, you will still be able to do what you do or even more, you will learn something new, but just because you don't like some minor changes, you want to ruin fun for thousands of other people? You don't even try to understand the other side and you don't want to find a solution that would allow everyone to have fun, you just care about your self and preserving current status quo. This is not the way to solve a problem.

You are reading it wrong. My fun is no more or less important than that of anyone else, and I'll prove it to you...

My point was simply that I am happy with the way it is currently, and if made optional I don't care what is added, within reason. That reason being DEVELOPER TIME. The changes you purpose will take TONS of time to implement (new AI? are you kidding me?) and in doing so you will remove fun from everyone (understanding enough for ya) while they wait possibly years to get new content. Many of us, I am sure, don't want to become stronger, nor do we want to be challenged when we play a game just to quest. As has been said WE DON"T WANT TO PLAY DARK SOULS when we are just out questing!

An optional self nerfing potion could be added much easier as hinder health potions are already in the base game and could be modified easier. If you truly only want a challenge then these would suit the bill IMO; OK you wouldn't get a shiny new AI but then again the rest of us could enjoy some new content within this decade.

You are deceiving yourself. When a proposition about content difficulty is made that cannot be negated in any way it always, but always, falls flat about ZOS resources. This is not your or any of our business, because we have absolutely no knowledge on this subject and building any argument on guesswork is pointless.

The new AI as I put it in brackets does not have to be anything advanced. Just a few patterns of new behavior for most of the mobs, because they use the same ones anyway. Increasing the frequency and strength of attacks is not particularly demanding, it doesn't require new logic, just changing values in existing functions. New doesn't mean complicated.

And optional nerf the only thing that will introduce is that instead of more interesting fights we will only have longer fights and as I wrote no one wants that. Nobody wants to do DPS parse every time in the fight, we want the fight to be more engaging, so that we have to actively block, dodge, heal, etc. and to do this we need to change the behavior of mobs, at least minimally. On the other hand, if someone couldn't handle such mechanics on lower difficulty levels even if they got a full combo from an NPC their HP wouldn't budge much as it is now. There's nothing about this that would hinder your game in any way. NOTHING!

And like I said, let the ZOS decide how to allocate their resources, because only they know the actual amount of work needed to make such changes. The hyperbole of saying "years without new content" is exaggerated and you know it, because somehow the change in the other direction i.e. when One Tamriel was introduced didn't take ZOS whole years, so a subtle change in NPC behavior shouldn't take them more. Logic is your friend.

Ok so we are on the same page here you want to, at minimum, adjust the behavior of every npc, critter, monster etc. etc. even with overlap it will still take time that (even though we don't know the resources available) to implement. This time could be much better spent IMO.

I cannot speak for others here, but if I suddenly find myself dying over and over in a game I used to play on a casual basis, I won't even try to "get gud" I'll just leave. Hopefully ZOS gives enough notice to cancel my sub first though. Frustration is not why I choose a game, I come to this game to relax. My last MMO decided to "up the difficulty" of the overland hence it became my "last" MMO. Here's the thing you are not getting, being challenged loosing all its luster when you are faced with enough "challenge" just getting out of bed in the morning. An optional switch (potion, spell) is the only thing I would like to see here.

Lets just say we will never agree on your proposal and leave it at that, I need sleep anyways.

And where did you get the idea that the change I proposed is not optional? It is not only optional but also works automatically. Are you deliberately skirting around what I wrote that is inconvenient for you? Nothing would change for players who want easy gameplay. You could still go through the content without any problems. Read it again this time trying to at least understand the proposed changes.

As for timing. Think about it this way, because of too easy and boring content very many players (if you would read my post you would know how many estimated) finish the game very fast. Time spent on addressing this problem is not time wasted but time spent on retaining more customers. Now the question is, will that number be greater than, the number of people who would stay in ESO thanks to new content but without more engaging gameplay? This question can only be answered by ZOS. As I said, these questions should be left out of our discussions.

SilverBride

Faulgor wrote: »

I have heard the same complaints from all my friends who have quit, all of which by no means min-maxers or as occupied with creating builds as I am.
That the majority of the content is unengaging at endgame is a big issue for them.

The only time I ever heard overland difficulty being discussed in game was before One Tamriel. Players were complaining and leaving because it was too much of a struggle to be fun. That is the reason I left, too.

Since I returned a couple of years ago I have not heard a single player complain that overland is too easy. Not in zone chat, not in guild chat, not in groups, not among my friends... not one single player ever, and I play every day.

Overland difficulty isn't a game issue at all... it's a forum issue.

Wolfshade

_Zathras_ wrote: »

So, while this thread did get stickied, it is a focus for the people who want to keep discussing it, rather than creating multitudes of threads again and again.

In this thread, you won't win against the opposing voices. In the actual game, things will remain the same, with a spectrum of difficulty that makes the game accessible to a broader audience.

You're just going to beat your head against a wall here.

It shows that this discussion that placed over several years now is getting focused by ZOS and didnt goes about winning or loosing. If you want and thing changed, you start one focussed disscusion over it where booth sides can argue it and bring it to the people who had to take a decicion.

For me, i can totally understand those players who say, to oneshot enemies is boring and it isnt an game-experience overall. But i can even understand players who are with good reasons against that. From the view of ZOS i think they did it right to look at the numbers for the success.

After reading all the arguments centrally, it is a matter of actually find out if an "optional difficulty level" could increase the success of Eso, keep it enjoyable for the players and make it enjoyable for more players. If so, then how:

Atm, after lotro goes that way with optional difficulty levels on legendary servers, trying it, reading about it and discuss it with other players i give a short summary:

- make it overall for all players is not a good choise
- everyone needs to notice, that increase the difficulty level, a) will slow down simply every in the game and b) makes the players more focussed on the game, the world, mechanics, classes etc. Some players love to play more focussed on world, lore and enjoy that pretty much, specially when the deep loore with good quests is already existing
- lotro is 14! years old, so twice then eso. Even after this decade of a non AAA Game, players read about that option and coming first time to lotro and want to play it. Generally the playerbase is atm a mix of new players, returning players and some hardcore fans that are looking for a new experience
- increase the difficulty level and make it enjoyable isnt a thing done by increasing lifepoints and reduce outgoint dmg while increase incoming dmg. its a smart mixture of many stats: dmg, resistances, blocking- and dodge- or evadechances from npc´s. Detection can be a point of making it harder, chances to krit and of course droprates and a couple of things involved in that point.

All of that shows, that it possible to make it more difficult and having succes with it!

Personaly for me, who played that game enthusiastically for a long periode before coming to eso in 2014, it is like traveling back in time and finding back a game i loved pretty much. If ZOS would give that a real chance, try it out on internal servers, placing an NPC on it with a smart storyline, and after that people can decide what difficult level they want to play and instead buffing or playing around with hundred stats on every class/race/weapon or single type of npc, just give one deadric debuff (that is nothing else than an disadvantage like vampires or werewolves already have) to the players. Only this one debuff will/could increase the difficult level. The whole rest of the world, for all the others players, remains as it is!

Honestly, thanks to focus this discussion, involved players and devs to have a closer look to the overland contend. In the end, it´s all ALMSIVI

SilverBride

Maya_Nur wrote: »

I got into situations where I wanted mobs to kill me so I could return to the exist without paying gold for teleport, but they just couldn't overdamage my Iceheart shields and HP regeneration!

Wanting to save a few gold is not a valid reason for a major rework of the base game.

Ravensilver

I am still missing the long-term sustainability of the idea here.

So we get the vet upgrade. You go do your quest, you bang on the quest endboss for half an hour, you die, you finally manage to kill him/her/it. You feel accomplished. The quest is finished.

Now what?

You can't do the quest again. You can't repeat the fight. Where is the sustainability here?

fizl101

Ravensilver wrote: »

I am still missing the long-term sustainability of the idea here.

So we get the vet upgrade. You go do your quest, you bang on the quest endboss for half an hour, you die, you finally manage to kill him/her/it. You feel accomplished. The quest is finished.

Now what?

You can't do the quest again. You can't repeat the fight. Where is the sustainability here?

Just like at normal you can run those quests again on another character. I enjoy the concept of the stories, but for me there isn't any increase in difficulty. I've done all the stories on one character, I do the minimal I feel I need to (main story) on my others to unlock the soul skill line. I would be doing them again and again on other characters if I felt like I had to make an effort to complete it. Thats why I personally would love an optional vet for the story/public dungeons/delves etc. I'm not talking about the usual mobs out and about when you are farming flowers etc

Ravensilver

Wolfshade wrote: »

It shows that this discussion that placed over several years now is getting focused by ZOS and didnt goes about winning or loosing. If you want and thing changed, you start one focussed disscusion over it where booth sides can argue it and bring it to the people who had to take a decicion.

Just because a discussion comes up again and again doesn't mean that ZOS is interested in changing anything.

Over on the Housing forum, the problem with the slots cap has been a subject of so many threads... in the end, we got a 'it's a console problem and we won't do anything about it' post (pinned) from @ZOS_CullenLee and that was that.

Ergele

so is everyone on board with difficulty slider?

Ravensilver

Ergele wrote: »

so is everyone on board with difficulty slider?

So... where will the difficulty slider be used? Before we enter the game - so for the open world? Before we start a quest? Before we enter a delve? Somewhere in between?

Blackbird_V

Ergele wrote: »

so is everyone on board with difficulty slider?

For some reason people are opposed to it, bringing up arguments how the game was half a decade ago LOL. I don't understand. Was a whole different game then.

They're for some reason so opposed to it and IGNORE the fact we say O P T I O N A L.


I am on board with it. Sadly, people just aren't.

Maya_Nur

SilverBride wrote: »

Maya_Nur wrote: »

I got into situations where I wanted mobs to kill me so I could return to the exist without paying gold for teleport, but they just couldn't overdamage my Iceheart shields and HP regeneration!

Wanting to save a few gold is not a valid reason for a major rework of the base game.

[snip] Anyway the point of example was not that I want to die easily to save some gold, but about enemies who aren't trying to kill player while it is their only purpose!

[edited for baiting]

Hallothiel

Ergele wrote: »

so is everyone on board with difficulty slider?

Please elucidate as to how it would work? Genuine question.

For example, how would it affect play if one player was using the slider but one wasn’t but fighting the same boss?

Would it affect grouping?

Franchise408

Amottica wrote: »

Rudrani wrote: »

If people wanna enjoy the story without a fight, make a movie.
No serious, keep normal overland the way it is, but allow a vet instance for people that want it.

And RIch said it is not that simple. Seriously. Those were his words answering the question about an optional higher difficulty.

Even beyond that Rich indicated that the game became immensely more successful with the current design.

I have no issue if Zenimax chooses to make such an optional setting. However, I respect their business decision as they say their data clearly suggest the huge majority of players are interested in enjoying the stories of the quests without being hindered with combat. I enjoy a challenge in combat but have never had an issue with easy story fights or felt something was missing.

Do you know what else is successful?

Skyrim. Which has sold double the amount of copies as ESO. And while nobody is going to mistake Skyrim for a "world's hardest game", it certainly has a more challenging "overland" than ESO does. It's world is far more engaging and immersive, in part because of the fact that there are actually challenges and dangers in the world to avoid and overcome.

Why know another massive reason why Skyrim is successful? Because of Oblivion, and Morrowind. Games that both are noted for having challenge. Morrowind single handedly saved Bethesda (and by extension, Zenimax) and changed the course of the company and the IP, while Oblivion took it to ridiculous new mainstream heights, selling nearly as many copies as ESO did, 7 years prior.

The company has also had marked success with Fallout 3 and Fallout 4, games that present "challenge" and "difficulty".

ESO is a virtual "I win" button, with zero obstacle or challenge to overcome. There is nothing to stimulate the mind or engage it. There is nothing to figure out. The game gives you an obstacle to overcome, and then overcomes it for you with quest markers that tell you exactly where the secret hidden object is, with combat that is overcome with literally just one push of a button. I have to say, if that sort of gameplay is so appealing, and is the reason for the success of ESO, then that scares me as a gamer. That scares me for the future of TES and Fallout games under Bethesda / Zenimax. It scares me if they are associating "lack of challenge" with "success", because I'll be perfectly honest - and these are feelings that I've had since beta - if the solo questing in ESO was reflective of a single player TES game, TES would not be my favorite video game IP. It would be something that I would never touch again. It took finding the more challenging and engaging content in dungeons, trials, PVP, and enhanced difficulty zones, for me to find something to actually keep me in ESO. If it weren't for the elements of enhanced difficulty in this game - if my experience were based solely off of the solo questing - I would have stayed gone back in June of 2014 when I left the game initially because of how unengaged I was. It took me about 2 additional returns (because I loved the TES IP and wanted to find something in ESO that I could love) to finally found anything worth staying for, because it certainly wasn't the unengaging solo quest gameplay.

And it really scares me that the unengaging gameplay is being associated with the game's success, because if the company sees that as the reason for success, it stands to reason that future TES single player titles will be made equally unengaging to cater to the success from those that don't want to face a challenge.

As someone who has been around since beta, on various platforms, and in various contexts, I can say that "difficulty" wasn't the reason why ESO wasn't a success in the beginning. And I can also tell you that lack of difficulty isn't the reason for its success now. ZOS dropped mandatory subscriptions, opened the game up so everyone can play together, added in TES style content like stealing world items and being able to assassinate innocent NPC's, and more content for solo and group players alike like more dungeons, trials, and zones. But if something isn't done with the gameplay for the solo questing and overland, that I have no need to continue purchasing content for this game. Chapters will be of no use for me, and I'll have no reason to purchase them. By not purchasing new content, I won't be on the same level as my fellow gamers, and I will lose motivation to continue playing. And at that point, it will no longer be worthwhile to continue with an ESO+ subscription, and ZOS will have lost a customer entirely.

Because I refuse to play content that feels like active punishment to me, which is what the mind numbingly easy overland is. It is punishment for me to endure. And I hope with all hope that TES6 and beyond don't turn into games that actively punish me because lack of challenge was deemed to be the reason for ESO's success.