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Overland Content Feedback Thread

  • Tommy_The_Gun
    Tommy_The_Gun
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    I think it is obvious and I would assume that game devs probably realise this, but I guess it is important:

    - Various people play this game, some are more skilled, some are less.
    - The difference between low level character & high level character is huge in terms of "power" (access to passives, more skills, stronger gear).
    - Overland content should be accessible to as many players as possible.

    All of this had to be accounted for when designing content, especially overland that is kinda um... "casual" content.

    If I were to give a feedback, I would say that overland content difficulty is not a problem. It is more or less in an "ok-ish' place.

    The problem though is inconsistency. While most world bosses and activities are in a good spot, there are some bosses that have a huge diffulty spike. Some examples of inconsistent difficulties would be Geysers vs Dragons or Ri'Atahrashi's Training Ground boss vs any other world boss in ESO (due to very weird & unforgiving mechanics).
    Edited by Tommy_The_Gun on November 3, 2021 1:58PM
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  • Dark_Lord_Kuro
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    Amottica wrote: »
    Hallothiel wrote: »
    , but if not incentivized correctly the whole idea about difficulty options would die rather fast.

    But why would it need to be incentivised? Surely the challenge alone would be sufficient, no?

    And this is about overland in general, not just dlcs & their quality (or lack of). That is a slightly different discussion.

    @Hallothiel

    If you go through the collection of threads clamoring for more difficult overland you will find some threads suggesting there should also be greater rewards. Also, player behavior demonstrates the masses of an MMORPG will not do more challenging content if there is not an appropriate reward for it.

    So they dont want harder content on its own bur rather better reward. If not they would be fine with receiving purple gear instead of blue one(like in dungeon)
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  • Toxic_Hemlock
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    Maya_Nur wrote: »
    I'm happy to see so many great ideas for vet overland here! I just wish to add a little bit more facets to those diamonds, so there are variants of how vOL can be implemented:

    1. Much love edition:
    — Overland HAS NO difficulty toggle BUT there are various types of mobs, from weak wolves to deadly mosters; from moderately dangerous bandits to high-skilled and well-geared criminal masterminds; from single enemies along the road to packs of dozens in lairs.
    — Smart enemies who WISH to kill you or at least desperately trying not to die.
    — Instaned delves (either solo or with party)
    — Progressive difficulty to the story quests chain with its climax in final battle.
    — Hard story bosses, for ex. Dagon in smaller form (like in the CGI) BUT do deadly blows, summons elite mobs, floods ground with deadly AOEs etc.
    — Great rewards. More gold for quests (5k-50k as the story progresses), coffers (blue, purple), houseguests/companions (characters who have participated in the story), furniture pieces, accessories etc.

    2. Love edition:
    — Overland HAS a difficulty toggle.
    — Smart enemies who WISH to kill you or at least desperately trying not to die.
    — Hard story bosses, for ex. Dagon in smaller form (like in the CGI) BUT do deadly blows, summons elite mobs, floods ground with deadly AOEs etc.
    — Better rewards. More gold for quests (5k-50k as the story progresses), coffers (blue, purple).

    3. At least something edition:
    — Overland HAS a difficulty toggle.
    — Buff enemies with HP and/or strength, same for story bosses.

    4. Better not to do edition:
    — Debuff player.

    You forgot option 5, the no vet overland option:

    Leave it the hell alone and let those that want to relax while questing have a place to do that in peace.
    Options
  • Ravensilver
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    The problem though is inconsistency. While most world bosses and activities are in a good spot, there are some bosses that have a huge diffulty spike. Some examples of inconsistent difficulties would be Geysers vs Dragons or Ri'Atahrashi's Training Ground boss vs any other world boss in ESO (due to very weird & unforgiving mechanics).

    Now that you mention it...

    When Elsweyr, and the new WBs, appeared, we all tried to bash Ri'Atahrashi down real fast. Didn't happen, because of the mechanics. Spent what felt like hours, trying to explain the mechanics, so that we could finally down the boss. Got him down, did the same thing again the next day.

    Same thing happened with The Reach.

    World Boss Voidmother Elgroalif. In order to defeat her, you had to adjust to certain mechanics, otherwise it didn't work. I can't tell you how often I, and many others, spammed chat in several languages (three, in my case) trying to get the information through the players' thick skulls. Each time we thought that *now* everyone had understood, someone new would ride up, start bashing the boss and throwing off the mechanics again, so we could all start over... It was *sooo* frustrating.

    ZOS finally changed that so that now, all we have to do, is nuke her down.

    So... ZOS actually *tried* to give players new mechanics, more difficulty, more challenging fights out in the open world. What happened? No one had either researched the information, or people just didn't bother to listen, and it didn't work. It had to be nerfed.

    Now try to imagine that situation throughout Tamriel. Every boss has now varying and difficult mechanics. Every bandit. Every wolf. You'd have to group. Then take time to educate the group. Then hope that no one else comes along (since except for Dungeons, Trials and Raids, everything else isn't instanced to the single player or group entering it) and blows it. Requiring you to start over. Three hours later... you're still fighting the same wolf or pirate or whatever.

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  • Maya_Nur
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    Maya_Nur wrote: »
    I'm happy to see so many great ideas for vet overland here! I just wish to add a little bit more facets to those diamonds, so there are variants of how vOL can be implemented:

    1. Much love edition:
    — Overland HAS NO difficulty toggle BUT there are various types of mobs, from weak wolves to deadly mosters; from moderately dangerous bandits to high-skilled and well-geared criminal masterminds; from single enemies along the road to packs of dozens in lairs.
    — Smart enemies who WISH to kill you or at least desperately trying not to die.
    — Instaned delves (either solo or with party)
    — Progressive difficulty to the story quests chain with its climax in final battle.
    — Hard story bosses, for ex. Dagon in smaller form (like in the CGI) BUT do deadly blows, summons elite mobs, floods ground with deadly AOEs etc.
    — Great rewards. More gold for quests (5k-50k as the story progresses), coffers (blue, purple), houseguests/companions (characters who have participated in the story), furniture pieces, accessories etc.

    2. Love edition:
    — Overland HAS a difficulty toggle.
    — Smart enemies who WISH to kill you or at least desperately trying not to die.
    — Hard story bosses, for ex. Dagon in smaller form (like in the CGI) BUT do deadly blows, summons elite mobs, floods ground with deadly AOEs etc.
    — Better rewards. More gold for quests (5k-50k as the story progresses), coffers (blue, purple).

    3. At least something edition:
    — Overland HAS a difficulty toggle.
    — Buff enemies with HP and/or strength, same for story bosses.

    4. Better not to do edition:
    — Debuff player.

    You forgot option 5, the no vet overland option:

    Leave it the hell alone and let those that want to relax while questing have a place to do that in peace.

    Then your opinion makes you against option 1, but not against the other options :wink:
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  • Toxic_Hemlock
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    Maya_Nur wrote: »
    Maya_Nur wrote: »
    I'm happy to see so many great ideas for vet overland here! I just wish to add a little bit more facets to those diamonds, so there are variants of how vOL can be implemented:

    1. Much love edition:
    — Overland HAS NO difficulty toggle BUT there are various types of mobs, from weak wolves to deadly mosters; from moderately dangerous bandits to high-skilled and well-geared criminal masterminds; from single enemies along the road to packs of dozens in lairs.
    — Smart enemies who WISH to kill you or at least desperately trying not to die.
    — Instaned delves (either solo or with party)
    — Progressive difficulty to the story quests chain with its climax in final battle.
    — Hard story bosses, for ex. Dagon in smaller form (like in the CGI) BUT do deadly blows, summons elite mobs, floods ground with deadly AOEs etc.
    — Great rewards. More gold for quests (5k-50k as the story progresses), coffers (blue, purple), houseguests/companions (characters who have participated in the story), furniture pieces, accessories etc.

    2. Love edition:
    — Overland HAS a difficulty toggle.
    — Smart enemies who WISH to kill you or at least desperately trying not to die.
    — Hard story bosses, for ex. Dagon in smaller form (like in the CGI) BUT do deadly blows, summons elite mobs, floods ground with deadly AOEs etc.
    — Better rewards. More gold for quests (5k-50k as the story progresses), coffers (blue, purple).

    3. At least something edition:
    — Overland HAS a difficulty toggle.
    — Buff enemies with HP and/or strength, same for story bosses.

    4. Better not to do edition:
    — Debuff player.

    You forgot option 5, the no vet overland option:

    Leave it the hell alone and let those that want to relax while questing have a place to do that in peace.

    Then your opinion makes you against option 1, but not against the other options :wink:

    I guess it would make me be against all the other choices, but I though I would make a separate option to punctuate the fact that many of us don't want any vet content at all. As there was no adverse choice in the post I had to add my own :).

    edited clarity
    Edited by Toxic_Hemlock on November 3, 2021 3:14PM
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  • Franchise408
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    Hallothiel wrote: »
    , but if not incentivized correctly the whole idea about difficulty options would die rather fast.

    But why would it need to be incentivised? Surely the challenge alone would be sufficient, no?

    And this is about overland in general, not just dlcs & their quality (or lack of). That is a slightly different discussion.

    If the only possible option was "increased difficulty with 0 change in rewards", then I would take that over what we currently have.

    But as it stands, there is 0 valid argument *against* an increase in loot drops to go along with an optional increased difficulty, as that is the base design that we see throughout the rest of the game as well. Veteran dungeons and trials have better loot drops than normal, so why shouldn't overland?

    If the argument is that a veteran overland should *not* include unique motifs, dyes, achievements, mats, etc. that are not available in normal, then I would agree with that.

    If the argument is that a veteran overland should *not* include blue drops of the same items that drop in green on normal in an identical system to what works in dungeons and trials, then I would 100% disagree with that, and go so far as to even claim that your entire premise of arguing such is nothing more than spite for higher level players, because there is no actual in game reason why blue drops instead of green (or purple instead of blue) and a slight boost to gold should not happen in a vet version of a quest, delve, or zone.

    Also, all content should be incentivized as much as possible to get as many players to play as possible, whether that be trials, dungeons, base game zones, DLC zones, world bosses, world events, or normal overland and vet overland. It is good for the health of the game to have players active and engaging with all aspects of content.

    As it currently stands, there is an issue (that is an extension of the issue in this thread, and not the focus of what this thread is about, but not entirely unrelated) that DLC zones are vacated after a certain amount of time because there is no incentive to return to them. The questing offers no rewarding gameplay, the loot drops become devalued, and there is no gain to playing in those zones. What we see is these zones start to become empty outside of the trading hubs (I.E. Rimmen and Alinor are busy - because their crafting / trading hubs are designed in a way to incentivize players to go there through convenient placement of services). Events like geysers, dragons, harrowstorms, world bosses, etc. become emptier and harder to complete because less people are doing them because the rewards are not enough incentive.

    I, personally, enjoy doing these things (specifically: geysers, dragons, harrowstorms, and world bosses, because that is the level of difficulty and mechanics I am looking for in this game) but where I am, on PC-NA, it can sometimes be a chore to do because other people aren't doing them as well or are unresponsive to requests for help (not 100% of the time, but it does happen)

    The only time these places become active are during events (i.e. incentive), and then the content becomes un-fun because there are too many people (FOMO) and the content gets burned through before one has a chance to actually engage with its design.

    It would be nice if there was incentive to play this content year-round, and also to not super stack all the incentive during a 2 week period of the year. There should be better incentive to play through DLC zones, Imperial City, Cyrodiil, Battlegrounds, base game zones, etc.

    The focus of this thread is to help incentivize overland questing, in both base game zones and DLC zones, through a challenge that appeals to a significant segment of the population that as of now is not engaging with it, because there is no incentive through either challenge or reward.
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  • Ravensilver
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    [snip]
    Also, all content should be incentivized as much as possible to get as many players to play as possible, whether that be trials, dungeons, base game zones, DLC zones, world bosses, world events, or normal overland and vet overland. It is good for the health of the game to have players active and engaging with all aspects of content.

    As it currently stands, there is an issue (that is an extension of the issue in this thread, and not the focus of what this thread is about, but not entirely unrelated) that DLC zones are vacated after a certain amount of time because there is no incentive to return to them. The questing offers no rewarding gameplay, the loot drops become devalued, and there is no gain to playing in those zones. What we see is these zones start to become empty outside of the trading hubs (I.E. Rimmen and Alinor are busy - because their crafting / trading hubs are designed in a way to incentivize players to go there through convenient placement of services). Events like geysers, dragons, harrowstorms, world bosses, etc. become emptier and harder to complete because less people are doing them because the rewards are not enough incentive.

    I, personally, enjoy doing these things (specifically: geysers, dragons, harrowstorms, and world bosses, because that is the level of difficulty and mechanics I am looking for in this game) but where I am, on PC-NA, it can sometimes be a chore to do because other people aren't doing them as well or are unresponsive to requests for help (not 100% of the time, but it does happen)

    The only time these places become active are during events (i.e. incentive), and then the content becomes un-fun because there are too many people (FOMO) and the content gets burned through before one has a chance to actually engage with its design.

    It would be nice if there was incentive to play this content year-round, and also to not super stack all the incentive during a 2 week period of the year. There should be better incentive to play through DLC zones, Imperial City, Cyrodiil, Battlegrounds, base game zones, etc.
    [snip]

    This I can actually agree with. Which is why I see a problem with vet overland. It will be interesting for a while - a few weeks, maybe a month or two - and then all those that wanted it will have rushed through, gotten the rewards (if there were any) and are back to being bored.

    Instead of focusing on a toggle or switch that will 'magically' turn overland into a hardcore grinder's wet dream, the focus should really be on making the zones *interesting*, even after players have done their initial runthrough.

    Perhaps ZOS would be willing to put a small team onto that. Perhaps we could collect some ideas for that which go beyond 'make boss mad elite superpower boom boss'.

    How about

    - a secret quest giver that appears randomly and gives quests for the wbs or the events like the dragons, the harrowstorms or the geysirs
    - how about secret passages that only open on certain days or certain hours and lead to an especially difficult boss
    - how about scavenger hunts for specific items that then combine to call a special boss
    - how about randomly opening portals that take you to a special boss (not the oblivion portals, but like a black hole that suddenly opens under your feet and sucks you in)
    - marauding elite mobs that need to be tracked and can only be killed if you're carrying a specific item
    - ....

    Wouldn't that make things more interesting than just upping hitpoints on everything?
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  • SilverBride
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    But as it stands, there is 0 valid argument *against* an increase in loot drops to go along with an optional increased difficulty, as that is the base design that we see throughout the rest of the game as well. Veteran dungeons and trials have better loot drops than normal, so why shouldn't overland?

    I have a few valid reasons why increased rewards for veteran overland, whether this is done by increased difficulty of the mobs or a player debuff, is a very bad idea.
    • It would give an unfair advantage to high CP veteran geared players because most players wouldn't choose to or be able to play that content. (Veteran Dungeons, Trials and Arenas exist specifically to give experienced players a challenge. This is very different from overland that is the base game for all players of all levels, skills and experience.)
    • Players asked for more difficulty for immersion in the story. That is the only goal and their increased satisfaction is reward enough. Increased rewards completely invalidates this.
    • It would turn overland into a way to easily farm veteran loot and gear without any competition for said drops from other players, and without ever having to step foot into the veteran content already established for this purpose. This would completely change what the base game is and should remain, besides being even more unfair to other players.
    Edited by SilverBride on November 3, 2021 4:15PM
    PCNA
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  • Sarannah
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    But as it stands, there is 0 valid argument *against* an increase in loot drops to go along with an optional increased difficulty, as that is the base design that we see throughout the rest of the game as well. Veteran dungeons and trials have better loot drops than normal, so why shouldn't overland?
    <SNIP>
    The focus of this thread is to help incentivize overland questing, in both base game zones and DLC zones, through a challenge that appeals to a significant segment of the population that as of now is not engaging with it, because there is no incentive through either challenge or reward.
    There are quite a few arguments against better rewards for a possible veteran overland. For one: Players can only do overland once, so rewarding one player more than another is unfair. Two: Players should never feel like they miss out on anything. 3: Overland is supposed to be easy as 0 skill / 0 CP players start there! There is probably a few more reasons, which I can't remember right now.

    You can't incentivize overland questing, players play what they want to play. The ones actually playing overland content, are happy with it(like me). I meet players everywhere I go, these players usually take it slow, are still new to the game, or are still learning the game. Players who wait with killing bosses when you are near, players who wait to see if you need help or healing, players who kill slower when you pass them by(so they can get a hit in).
    It is actually the players who mount through everything, run through everything, cause trains of mobs, and skip everything to the end who now want the content they do not play to be harder! Even if overland content became harder, or gave incentives, they still would not play it. They would still run through everything, and run to the end. Therefor there is no need to cater to those players. If players need incentives to be somewhere, they do not want to be there. I am out there right now, even without incentives. And many other players are as well, even without incentives. Why should ZOS change overland content for players that do not want to do that content! While at the same time many players are already enjoying that content.

    Even if ZOS added a veteran overland option, this option would be deserted within a few days. Players would either only play through it once, or they would do the same as they do now. Run or mount to the end. (Happened pre-OneTamriel as well, happens in dungeons and public dungeons right now)

    Veteran overland should never happen, not even as optional.

    PS: To make players truly engage with overland content, give all mobs rooting(like guards) and dismounting abilities. This should be done before even thinking about veteran overland.
    PPS: If a veteran overland option ever does happen, ZOS should keep in mind how resourcenodes/treasure chests work. Noone should be at a farming disadvantage versus another player.
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  • DinoZavr
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    I have a few valid reasons why increased rewards for veteran overland, whether this is done by increased difficulty of the mobs or a player debuff, is a very bad idea.

    Debuff is a very good idea.
    Let's speak not an increased drops/gold but more XP gained per kill.
    Player contacts NPC to get his stats reduced like 20% for the price of 15% (?) more kills XP
    Apparently you can do that multiple times (up to 4). I don't see anything "unfair" in such the implementation.
    You select the game difficulty you prefer.
    PC EU
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  • Franchise408
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    But as it stands, there is 0 valid argument *against* an increase in loot drops to go along with an optional increased difficulty, as that is the base design that we see throughout the rest of the game as well. Veteran dungeons and trials have better loot drops than normal, so why shouldn't overland?

    I have a few valid reasons why increased rewards for veteran overland, whether this is done by increased difficulty of the mobs or a player debuff, is a very bad idea.
    • It would give an unfair advantage to high CP veteran geared players because most players wouldn't choose to or be able to play that content. (Veteran Dungeons, Trials and Arenas exist specifically to give experienced players a challenge. This is very different from overland that is the base game for all players of all levels, skills and experience.)
    • Players asked for more difficulty for immersion in the story. That is the only goal and their increased satisfaction is reward enough. Increased rewards completely invalidates this.
    • It would turn overland into a way to easily farm veteran loot and gear without any competition for said drops from other players, and without ever having to step foot into the veteran content already established for this purpose. This would completely change what the base game is and should remain, besides being even more unfair to other players.

    I've already addressed all of these points and explained why none of your concerns are an issue.

    *There would be no unfair advantage given to higher level players who earn a blue overland drop instead of a green overland drop.
    *Difficulty and immersion are not reasons to not give additional rewards. They are not mutually exclusive ideas.
    *It wouldn't turn overland into a farm because 1. overland quests can only be completed once and 2. the gear that would be received is not worth farming for. The overland gear that is worth farming, people are already able to do now, so giving them blue drops instead of green won't change that.

    There is nothing unfair about giving blue drops in vet content instead of green. If you do more, you should get more, and the systems are already in place throughout the game.
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  • Blackbird_V
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    Maya_Nur wrote: »
    I'm happy to see so many great ideas for vet overland here! I just wish to add a little bit more facets to those diamonds, so there are variants of how vOL can be implemented:

    1. Much love edition:
    — Overland HAS NO difficulty toggle BUT there are various types of mobs, from weak wolves to deadly mosters; from moderately dangerous bandits to high-skilled and well-geared criminal masterminds; from single enemies along the road to packs of dozens in lairs.
    — Smart enemies who WISH to kill you or at least desperately trying not to die.
    — Instaned delves (either solo or with party)
    — Progressive difficulty to the story quests chain with its climax in final battle.
    — Hard story bosses, for ex. Dagon in smaller form (like in the CGI) BUT do deadly blows, summons elite mobs, floods ground with deadly AOEs etc.
    — Great rewards. More gold for quests (5k-50k as the story progresses), coffers (blue, purple), houseguests/companions (characters who have participated in the story), furniture pieces, accessories etc.

    2. Love edition:
    — Overland HAS a difficulty toggle.
    — Smart enemies who WISH to kill you or at least desperately trying not to die.
    — Hard story bosses, for ex. Dagon in smaller form (like in the CGI) BUT do deadly blows, summons elite mobs, floods ground with deadly AOEs etc.
    — Better rewards. More gold for quests (5k-50k as the story progresses), coffers (blue, purple).

    3. At least something edition:
    — Overland HAS a difficulty toggle.
    — Buff enemies with HP and/or strength, same for story bosses.

    4. Better not to do edition:
    — Debuff player.

    You forgot option 5, the no vet overland option:

    Leave it the hell alone and let those that want to relax while questing have a place to do that in peace.

    Ok, what if we have a veteran overland, but, Hear me out, and everyone else..... It's a toggle so you don't have to do it?


    Are people purposefully ignoring the fact we're asking for a toggle? It seems people really are not listening to what we're saying.
    Edited by Blackbird_V on November 3, 2021 4:38PM
    Difficulty scaling is desperately needed. 9 years. 6 paid expansions. 25 DLCs. 41 game changing updates including A Realm Reborn-tier overhaul of the game including a permanent CP160 gear cap and ridiculous power creep thereafter. I'm sick and tired of hearing about Cadwell Silver&Gold as a "you think you do but you don't"-tier deflection to any criticism regarding the lack of overland difficulty in the game.
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  • Franchise408
    Franchise408
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    Sarannah wrote: »
    But as it stands, there is 0 valid argument *against* an increase in loot drops to go along with an optional increased difficulty, as that is the base design that we see throughout the rest of the game as well. Veteran dungeons and trials have better loot drops than normal, so why shouldn't overland?
    <SNIP>
    The focus of this thread is to help incentivize overland questing, in both base game zones and DLC zones, through a challenge that appeals to a significant segment of the population that as of now is not engaging with it, because there is no incentive through either challenge or reward.
    There are quite a few arguments against better rewards for a possible veteran overland. For one: Players can only do overland once, so rewarding one player more than another is unfair. Two: Players should never feel like they miss out on anything. 3: Overland is supposed to be easy as 0 skill / 0 CP players start there! There is probably a few more reasons, which I can't remember right now.

    You can't incentivize overland questing, players play what they want to play. The ones actually playing overland content, are happy with it(like me). I meet players everywhere I go, these players usually take it slow, are still new to the game, or are still learning the game. Players who wait with killing bosses when you are near, players who wait to see if you need help or healing, players who kill slower when you pass them by(so they can get a hit in).
    It is actually the players who mount through everything, run through everything, cause trains of mobs, and skip everything to the end who now want the content they do not play to be harder! Even if overland content became harder, or gave incentives, they still would not play it. They would still run through everything, and run to the end. Therefor there is no need to cater to those players. If players need incentives to be somewhere, they do not want to be there. I am out there right now, even without incentives. And many other players are as well, even without incentives. Why should ZOS change overland content for players that do not want to do that content! While at the same time many players are already enjoying that content.

    Even if ZOS added a veteran overland option, this option would be deserted within a few days. Players would either only play through it once, or they would do the same as they do now. Run or mount to the end. (Happened pre-OneTamriel as well, happens in dungeons and public dungeons right now)

    Veteran overland should never happen, not even as optional.

    PS: To make players truly engage with overland content, give all mobs rooting(like guards) and dismounting abilities. This should be done before even thinking about veteran overland.
    PPS: If a veteran overland option ever does happen, ZOS should keep in mind how resourcenodes/treasure chests work. Noone should be at a farming disadvantage versus another player.

    Did you know: People are mounting up and rushing through the content and "not playing it", because as it stands, it is not worth playing?

    The last questline I did was the Greymoor main quest. It was an absolute pain and chore to play through because the gameplay was so tedious and disengaging. Not just disengaging, but actively pushes me away. I told myself after that that I would never again punish myself by making myself play through an overland quest.

    I have never even finished a single faction quest, because the gameplay actively pushes me away from enjoying it.

    I was so serious about not ever playing through another overland quest that I didn't even make my traditional new character when Blackwood came out (I traditionally make a new character for each chapter, that new character being my "canon" hero of that particular chapter story. I have my original launch / Vestige storyline character, a Morrowind character, a Summerset character, an Elsweyr character, and a Greymoor character. I skipped on making a new character for Blackwood because I refuse to punish myself by playing through another questline... and if gameplay feels like "punishment", there is a huge problem with it)

    You talk about all those people who just mount up and rush through the zones and don't stop to enjoy it, but perhaps if the game was designed to give us something to enjoy, we wouldn't be so compelled to rush through them.
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  • kojou
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    I experienced the game at its original difficulty as I went from level 50 to what was then Veteran Rank (VR) 1. After slaying Molag Bal in an (at the time) epic fight I proceeded to get my butt kicked by the first hostile NPC that I saw. I knew very little about optimizing my build, set pieces were pretty rare, and I didn't have very much in the way of upgrade materials to upgrade anything even if I had something worth upgrading.

    I eventually developed strategies using stuns, kiting, block casting, and roll dodging to beat my foes, but it was very tedious to do quests in this state. It was certainly more challenging, and in some ways more fun, but a lot of times I would just Dark Cloak to the objective because I was tired of everything being an epic fight. It did make me a better player, but one thing I have learned in my travels is that a lot of players don't really want to get better. They just want to consume the story and see flashy skills kill things. Sometimes that is all I want too out of overland, but I can see why some players want a "difficulty slider."

    I will argue to this day though, that Craglorn was completely mishandled. It should have stayed the "challenge" zone, and the gear and rewards that you got from going there should have reflected that. I liked that I could group up with friends and explore the zone, and that if I went there solo I would likely get slaughtered if I wasn't careful. The problem with Craglorn in my opinion is that the rewards were either always terrible or made terrible, so beyond completion of new content there was no reason to go back. For example, Anomalies were really popular when they were one of the best ways to get XP, but the XP was nerfed, so players stopped doing them. The 3 sets for the zone were (and still are) terrible, so nobody had a reason to farm them. Martial Knowledge has its uses, but it is still currently a niche set that basically only healers use.

    Maybe there could be a "Sweaty Palms" skill line that Uncle Sheogorath grants us that gives certain kiss/curse passives when you enable it. For example:

    - Halve your damage, but give more XP
    - Disable your CP, but give you more gold
    - Halve your mitigation, but increase your treasure chest rewards
    - Halve your health, but increase your chance of getting a rare lead drop

    I'm sure there are other ideas, but I for one would ignore a overland difficulty slider unless it gave some benefit. Maybe there are others that would use it just for the sake of increasing difficulty, but I'm guessing that would be a low percentage of players, and not enough to justify the expense of developing the feature.
    Playing since beta...
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  • Ravensilver
    Ravensilver
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    You talk about all those people who just mount up and rush through the zones and don't stop to enjoy it, but perhaps if the game was designed to give us something to enjoy, we wouldn't be so compelled to rush through them.

    Ok. So what would 'a game you enjoy' look like in detail?
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  • SilverBride
    SilverBride
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    *There would be no unfair advantage given to higher level players who earn a blue overland drop instead of a green overland drop.
    *Difficulty and immersion are not reasons to not give additional rewards. They are not mutually exclusive ideas.
    *It wouldn't turn overland into a farm because 1. overland quests can only be completed once and 2. the gear that would be received is not worth farming for. The overland gear that is worth farming, people are already able to do now, so giving them blue drops instead of green won't change that.

    There is nothing unfair about giving blue drops in vet content instead of green. If you do more, you should get more, and the systems are already in place throughout the game.

    The quests are once, but what about World Bosses and Dragons and Harrowstorms and bosses in Delves and Public Dungeons? These could easily be farmed.

    I stand by my opinion.
    PCNA
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  • Franchise408
    Franchise408
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    You talk about all those people who just mount up and rush through the zones and don't stop to enjoy it, but perhaps if the game was designed to give us something to enjoy, we wouldn't be so compelled to rush through them.

    Ok. So what would 'a game you enjoy' look like in detail?

    MMO-wise... Star Wars: Galaxies. Which is the design that ESO should have used for inspiration, since it is far closer to the TES spirit, rather than DAOC / WOW / Diablo 3

    Instead of pre-made classes, there should be separate skill trees. Each character has a set amount of skill points that can be invested into the different parts of those skill trees. You level up your skills by doing them, rather than having character levels. Crafting would be made more important by eliminating loot drops, and rather in place of loot drops, there would be mats and blueprint drops. Crafters would make all of the gear and be able to sell, trade, or use whatever they make. Crafting would be part of your skill point allotment, so some players would be dedicated crafters, while some would be dedicated dungeoners, or questers, or what have you.

    Basically, ESO would have a completely different design foundation.

    But that would require an entirely new game.

    Honestly, the changes that I would want would require an entirely new game. I think that ESO should be something completely different than what it actually is, because what it is isn't Elder Scrolls - it's a WOW / DOAC / Diablo 3 clone.

    But working within the confines of what we have, I'll quote my ideas from earlier in the thread that I think would work:
    My feedback: Overland content is far too easy, and more importantly than even than, non-engaging.

    Fights are more of a nuisance than anything else, because there is no meaningful challenge, and no meaningful engagement with NPC's. This makes me not want to play through the game's questing content, and by extension of that, gives me no reason to purchase further chapters if the overland content isn't addressed to be more engaging.

    While the game needs to be accessible to newer players, and players of all skill levels, and shouldn't be balanced around the highest of CP level players, it also shouldn't be balanced around the lowest common denominator that wants to face 0 challenge or adversity in the game. The fun of a game comes from overcoming obstacles and challenges, and as it stands, this game's overland content provides 0 obstacle or challenge.

    The solution is not to just give NPC's more health, as that simply just turns a non-engaging fight into a longer non-engaging fight.

    The solution is not to just unequip all of your gear and remove your CP's, because an RPG is all about building and progression, and if you have to undo all of your building and progression simply to have any sort of challenge, then it's not a good system.

    Overland needs more meaningful mechanics to engage with to provide a challenge, but unfortunately, the solution is also to not re-work the entirety of overland to give mechanics to the content that already exists. That will be far too large of an undertaking, that would be just like making an entirely new game. For this reason, I'm not sure that vet instances of overland zones would work either.

    What might be able to work:

    New zones that have increased difficulty. When chapters come out, either

    1. The new zones can have "normal" and "vet" instances for people to choose which version they want

    or

    2. The first zone of the new chapter (i.e. Northern Elsweyr, Western Skyrim) can be the "easy" zone, and the 2nd zone of the new chapter (i.e. Southern Elsweyr, The Reach) can be the "veteran" zone with enhanced mechanics and challenges.

    In addition to this, I may suggest that questlines have optional "normal" or "veteran" options to partake in the quest, and / or challenge banners for quest bosses.

    An overview of what I think overland should look like:

    1. The vast majority of "outside" overland zones (i.e. Grahtwood, Wastern Skyrim, Deshaan, and the like) stay as they are now. It would be too large an undertaking to remake all of these zones. Leave them as is.
    2. Future expansion zones are separated into "normal" and "veteran", i.e. 1 new chapter zone is a "normal" zone and the other new chapter zone is a "veteran" zone.
    3. Delves are given a "normal" and "veteran" version to enter.
    4. Public dungeons can remain as is, as will world bosses.
    5. Future questlines are given a "normal" / "veteran" option - or at the very least, the questline bosses are given a challenge banner
    6. Rewards will work as they do in "normal" / "veteran" dungeons and trials, meaning that the loot itself stays the same, but it may come at an additional level. I.E. if the "normal" version of a quest or delve drops a green piece of gear, the "veteran" version will drop a blue drop of the same gear. This remains consistent with the reward drops for "normal" / "veteran" dungeons and trials, and does not become so over-powering that those not doing veteran will be missing out.

    It probably doesn't go as far as some would like (even myself, tbh), and it probably goes farther than those who want 0 enhanced difficulty what-so-ever would want, but I think this is a fair compromise that

    1. gives an enhanced challenge to those who feel that there is nothing left to this game outside of dungeons and trials
    2. doesn't take away the lack of challenge from those who don't want it
    3. is realistic, as it only really focuses on content moving forward, rather than engaging in an undertaking to rework the entirety of the game up to this point.

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  • Franchise408
    Franchise408
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    *There would be no unfair advantage given to higher level players who earn a blue overland drop instead of a green overland drop.
    *Difficulty and immersion are not reasons to not give additional rewards. They are not mutually exclusive ideas.
    *It wouldn't turn overland into a farm because 1. overland quests can only be completed once and 2. the gear that would be received is not worth farming for. The overland gear that is worth farming, people are already able to do now, so giving them blue drops instead of green won't change that.

    There is nothing unfair about giving blue drops in vet content instead of green. If you do more, you should get more, and the systems are already in place throughout the game.

    The quests are once, but what about World Bosses and Dragons and Harrowstorms and bosses in Delves and Public Dungeons? These could easily be farmed.

    I stand by my opinion.

    They can already be farmed now.

    And in my proposal, WB's, dragons, harrowstorms, and public dungeons wouldn't be touched. Their difficulty is fine as is.

    I stand by my opinion.
    Edited by Franchise408 on November 3, 2021 5:03PM
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  • Ravensilver
    Ravensilver
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    MMO-wise... Star Wars: Galaxies. Which is the design that ESO should have used for inspiration, since it is far closer to the TES spirit, rather than DAOC / WOW / Diablo 3
    [snip]
    But that would require an entirely new game.

    [snipsnipsnip]

    I have no idea what Star Wars: Galaxies was like. I played all of the other three that you mentioned and there is a reason why I'm not playing them anymore, but rather ESO.

    But... to get back to your ideas.

    So. Let's say we have two different instances: the 'normal' and the 'vet'.

    Can I do the whole story line and quests on normal and then do them again on vet? Perhaps I'm new. Or I don't feel comfortable with vet yet or don't have the experience or gear to do the vet instance yet. So there would have to be the possibility of playing through everything twice.

    Once I've run through both versions... what then? What is there to encourage me to continue to re-do the vet version? Like... why am I doing vet dungeons, after I've farmed everything that I need/want or have done all the achievements (I haven't... because I have no interest in doing that... but that's me).
    So when everyone's through all the vet zones. What then?

    Do we get a 'vet2' and 'vet3' and 'nightmare vet' setting?

    There has to be a longterm solution to this... Just a toggle is short term.
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  • Blackbird_V
    Blackbird_V
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    *There would be no unfair advantage given to higher level players who earn a blue overland drop instead of a green overland drop.
    *Difficulty and immersion are not reasons to not give additional rewards. They are not mutually exclusive ideas.
    *It wouldn't turn overland into a farm because 1. overland quests can only be completed once and 2. the gear that would be received is not worth farming for. The overland gear that is worth farming, people are already able to do now, so giving them blue drops instead of green won't change that.

    There is nothing unfair about giving blue drops in vet content instead of green. If you do more, you should get more, and the systems are already in place throughout the game.

    The quests are once, but what about World Bosses and Dragons and Harrowstorms and bosses in Delves and Public Dungeons? These could easily be farmed.

    I stand by my opinion.

    Good? That breathes life into overland content, which is currently dead.

    And not to mention public dungeons are farmed anyway depending on what sets are meta (right now deshaan for sorrow). Dolmens are heavily farmed due to experience... so.....?
    Difficulty scaling is desperately needed. 9 years. 6 paid expansions. 25 DLCs. 41 game changing updates including A Realm Reborn-tier overhaul of the game including a permanent CP160 gear cap and ridiculous power creep thereafter. I'm sick and tired of hearing about Cadwell Silver&Gold as a "you think you do but you don't"-tier deflection to any criticism regarding the lack of overland difficulty in the game.
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  • Araxyte
    Araxyte
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    *There would be no unfair advantage given to higher level players who earn a blue overland drop instead of a green overland drop.
    *Difficulty and immersion are not reasons to not give additional rewards. They are not mutually exclusive ideas.
    *It wouldn't turn overland into a farm because 1. overland quests can only be completed once and 2. the gear that would be received is not worth farming for. The overland gear that is worth farming, people are already able to do now, so giving them blue drops instead of green won't change that.

    There is nothing unfair about giving blue drops in vet content instead of green. If you do more, you should get more, and the systems are already in place throughout the game.

    The quests are once, but what about World Bosses and Dragons and Harrowstorms and bosses in Delves and Public Dungeons? These could easily be farmed.

    I stand by my opinion.

    People aren't going to start farming a vet overland purely on the basis that they would receive a blue drop rather than green, that's a little over the top. High end players are currently farming normal dungeons for gear rather than vet as it is faster and more efficient.
    | All classes | PC EU |
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  • Celephantsylvius_Bornasfinmo
    Celephantsylvius_Bornasfinmo
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    I think that overland and quests related to a particular zone need an upscale in damage.

    Why? Because it's simply to easy as is and removes all enjoyment from that part of the game (sandbox/discovery/threat)

    I know it will create a problem for players with less experience or a less hands on approach to the combat gameplay, but overall I think it would add a bit of depth to overland and possibly gently nudge players into the direction of 'Ok, maybe I should check what I'm wearing and using in terms of skills'.

    I know ESO is trying to be a game for all, but the watered down version of overland can't last forever. We have the new player base now and it might be in all our best interests for them to follow a path.
    Edited by Celephantsylvius_Bornasfinmo on November 3, 2021 5:43PM
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  • Franchise408
    Franchise408
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    MMO-wise... Star Wars: Galaxies. Which is the design that ESO should have used for inspiration, since it is far closer to the TES spirit, rather than DAOC / WOW / Diablo 3
    [snip]
    But that would require an entirely new game.

    [snipsnipsnip]

    I have no idea what Star Wars: Galaxies was like. I played all of the other three that you mentioned and there is a reason why I'm not playing them anymore, but rather ESO.

    But... to get back to your ideas.

    So. Let's say we have two different instances: the 'normal' and the 'vet'.

    Can I do the whole story line and quests on normal and then do them again on vet? Perhaps I'm new. Or I don't feel comfortable with vet yet or don't have the experience or gear to do the vet instance yet. So there would have to be the possibility of playing through everything twice.

    Once I've run through both versions... what then? What is there to encourage me to continue to re-do the vet version? Like... why am I doing vet dungeons, after I've farmed everything that I need/want or have done all the achievements (I haven't... because I have no interest in doing that... but that's me).
    So when everyone's through all the vet zones. What then?

    Do we get a 'vet2' and 'vet3' and 'nightmare vet' setting?

    There has to be a longterm solution to this... Just a toggle is short term.

    Am I the only one who does vet dungeons even though I've gotten the gear and achievements out of them that I need? Am I the only one who plays vet dungeons... simply because I enjoy them?

    Am I the only one who gets excited when particular dungeons pop up on pledges because I enjoy doing them just for fun and I know I'll have an easier time popping a queue?

    There already is content in the game that tries to prompt you to repeat overland content. There are the daily delve quests for one. Mage's Guild quests for another. As it is, I skip the delve dailies and the Mage's Guild quests because they send me into delves that feel like punishment due to how easy they are (well sometimes the Mage's Guild sends you into a public dungeon, which is more engaging). If there were vet versions of delves, I would happily do those delve dailies and be involved more in delves.

    As far as quests go... I don't know that there is a need to redo the quests again on vet, because with the rate that new content comes out, there would be plenty to do for vet players if they could just have a vet instance of new DLC zones and quests. As my previous post stated, I'd even be okay with it if already existing overland was left the same (just give instances for things like delves), but new DLC that will be released could have instances for normal and vet (or at least the quests). Maybe I'm only speaking for myself, but even if a vet overland was isolated just to new content (or, as I suggested, one of the 2 zones were "normal", and the other was a higher level "veteran" challenge zone), that would be satisfactory for me.

    I just want *something* that is not so brain meltingly tedious to do outside of dungeons, trials, and other group content (i.e. world bosses, dragons, and harrowstorms are solo'able content). I don't even need a revamp of the existing content. Just make new content something that gives me some sort of option to be able to enjoy.
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  • Blackbird_V
    Blackbird_V
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    MMO-wise... Star Wars: Galaxies. Which is the design that ESO should have used for inspiration, since it is far closer to the TES spirit, rather than DAOC / WOW / Diablo 3
    [snip]
    But that would require an entirely new game.

    [snipsnipsnip]

    I have no idea what Star Wars: Galaxies was like. I played all of the other three that you mentioned and there is a reason why I'm not playing them anymore, but rather ESO.

    But... to get back to your ideas.

    So. Let's say we have two different instances: the 'normal' and the 'vet'.

    Can I do the whole story line and quests on normal and then do them again on vet? Perhaps I'm new. Or I don't feel comfortable with vet yet or don't have the experience or gear to do the vet instance yet. So there would have to be the possibility of playing through everything twice.

    Once I've run through both versions... what then? What is there to encourage me to continue to re-do the vet version? Like... why am I doing vet dungeons, after I've farmed everything that I need/want or have done all the achievements (I haven't... because I have no interest in doing that... but that's me).
    So when everyone's through all the vet zones. What then?

    Do we get a 'vet2' and 'vet3' and 'nightmare vet' setting?

    There has to be a longterm solution to this... Just a toggle is short term.

    Am I the only one who does vet dungeons even though I've gotten the gear and achievements out of them that I need? Am I the only one who plays vet dungeons... simply because I enjoy them?

    Am I the only one who gets excited when particular dungeons pop up on pledges because I enjoy doing them just for fun and I know I'll have an easier time popping a queue?

    There already is content in the game that tries to prompt you to repeat overland content. There are the daily delve quests for one. Mage's Guild quests for another. As it is, I skip the delve dailies and the Mage's Guild quests because they send me into delves that feel like punishment due to how easy they are (well sometimes the Mage's Guild sends you into a public dungeon, which is more engaging). If there were vet versions of delves, I would happily do those delve dailies and be involved more in delves.

    As far as quests go... I don't know that there is a need to redo the quests again on vet, because with the rate that new content comes out, there would be plenty to do for vet players if they could just have a vet instance of new DLC zones and quests. As my previous post stated, I'd even be okay with it if already existing overland was left the same (just give instances for things like delves), but new DLC that will be released could have instances for normal and vet (or at least the quests). Maybe I'm only speaking for myself, but even if a vet overland was isolated just to new content (or, as I suggested, one of the 2 zones were "normal", and the other was a higher level "veteran" challenge zone), that would be satisfactory for me.

    I just want *something* that is not so brain meltingly tedious to do outside of dungeons, trials, and other group content (i.e. world bosses, dragons, and harrowstorms are solo'able content). I don't even need a revamp of the existing content. Just make new content something that gives me some sort of option to be able to enjoy.

    I do vDungeons and Trials for fun, even if I don't want gear.

    People always do a dungeon for gear and stop after. How boring is that?
    Difficulty scaling is desperately needed. 9 years. 6 paid expansions. 25 DLCs. 41 game changing updates including A Realm Reborn-tier overhaul of the game including a permanent CP160 gear cap and ridiculous power creep thereafter. I'm sick and tired of hearing about Cadwell Silver&Gold as a "you think you do but you don't"-tier deflection to any criticism regarding the lack of overland difficulty in the game.
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  • SilverBride
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    That breathes life into overland content, which is currently dead.

    And not to mention public dungeons are farmed anyway depending on what sets are meta (right now deshaan for sorrow). Dolmens are heavily farmed due to experience... so.....?

    Overland is far from dead. Many players still enjoy and spend a lot of time in overland, myself included. And I always run into other players.

    I am not referring to current sets that players farm that are available to all... my issue is rewarding players with better drops for an increased difficulty that they asked for and are not required to participate in. The goal has been stated as wanting to feel immersed in the story which is reward enough.

    And I am not talking about just green to blue, or blue to purple, or even purple to gold which would be the case for some of the story bosses. Some have also suggested new drops and cosmetics only for the veteran version of overland.
    PCNA
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  • Araxyte
    Araxyte
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    MMO-wise... Star Wars: Galaxies. Which is the design that ESO should have used for inspiration, since it is far closer to the TES spirit, rather than DAOC / WOW / Diablo 3
    [snip]
    But that would require an entirely new game.

    [snipsnipsnip]

    I have no idea what Star Wars: Galaxies was like. I played all of the other three that you mentioned and there is a reason why I'm not playing them anymore, but rather ESO.

    But... to get back to your ideas.

    So. Let's say we have two different instances: the 'normal' and the 'vet'.

    Can I do the whole story line and quests on normal and then do them again on vet? Perhaps I'm new. Or I don't feel comfortable with vet yet or don't have the experience or gear to do the vet instance yet. So there would have to be the possibility of playing through everything twice.

    Once I've run through both versions... what then? What is there to encourage me to continue to re-do the vet version? Like... why am I doing vet dungeons, after I've farmed everything that I need/want or have done all the achievements (I haven't... because I have no interest in doing that... but that's me).
    So when everyone's through all the vet zones. What then?

    Do we get a 'vet2' and 'vet3' and 'nightmare vet' setting?

    There has to be a longterm solution to this... Just a toggle is short term.

    Am I the only one who does vet dungeons even though I've gotten the gear and achievements out of them that I need? Am I the only one who plays vet dungeons... simply because I enjoy them?

    Am I the only one who gets excited when particular dungeons pop up on pledges because I enjoy doing them just for fun and I know I'll have an easier time popping a queue?

    There already is content in the game that tries to prompt you to repeat overland content. There are the daily delve quests for one. Mage's Guild quests for another. As it is, I skip the delve dailies and the Mage's Guild quests because they send me into delves that feel like punishment due to how easy they are (well sometimes the Mage's Guild sends you into a public dungeon, which is more engaging). If there were vet versions of delves, I would happily do those delve dailies and be involved more in delves.

    As far as quests go... I don't know that there is a need to redo the quests again on vet, because with the rate that new content comes out, there would be plenty to do for vet players if they could just have a vet instance of new DLC zones and quests. As my previous post stated, I'd even be okay with it if already existing overland was left the same (just give instances for things like delves), but new DLC that will be released could have instances for normal and vet (or at least the quests). Maybe I'm only speaking for myself, but even if a vet overland was isolated just to new content (or, as I suggested, one of the 2 zones were "normal", and the other was a higher level "veteran" challenge zone), that would be satisfactory for me.

    I just want *something* that is not so brain meltingly tedious to do outside of dungeons, trials, and other group content (i.e. world bosses, dragons, and harrowstorms are solo'able content). I don't even need a revamp of the existing content. Just make new content something that gives me some sort of option to be able to enjoy.

    I love doing vet dungeons too, especially for people that haven't done it before. There are alot of people out there who like them. It's not just brain-dead button mashing, there are sophisticated mechanics that require thought and practice.
    | All classes | PC EU |
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  • Araxyte
    Araxyte
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    That breathes life into overland content, which is currently dead.

    And not to mention public dungeons are farmed anyway depending on what sets are meta (right now deshaan for sorrow). Dolmens are heavily farmed due to experience... so.....?

    Overland is far from dead. Many players still enjoy and spend a lot of time in overland, myself included. And I always run into other players.

    I am not referring to current sets that players farm that are available to all... my issue is rewarding players with better drops for an increased difficulty that they asked for and are not required to participate in. The goal has been stated as wanting to feel immersed in the story which is reward enough.

    And I am not talking about just green to blue, or blue to purple, or even purple to gold which would be the case for some of the story bosses. Some have also suggested new drops and cosmetics only for the veteran version of overland.

    Some players want just the story, other players like my self want story and satisfactory combat encounters/ rewards. There should be option for both
    | All classes | PC EU |
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  • SilverBride
    SilverBride
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    Araxyte wrote: »
    Some players want just the story, other players like my self want story and satisfactory combat encounters/ rewards. There should be option for both

    This is where we disagree, but not just us. As some have pointed out there are many different goals being discussed and there isn't a general consensus on what the issue is, which makes it much more difficult to find a solution that would be acceptable by all.

    It's up to ZoS now to read the feedback and make decisions based on this feedback as to whether a problem exists that is significant enough to need addressed and what solution would be best for the community as a whole.
    PCNA
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  • Sylvermynx
    Sylvermynx
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    Youyouz06 wrote: »
    I think that overland and quests related to a particular zone need an upscale in damage.

    Why? Because it's simply to easy as is and removes all enjoyment from that part of the game (sandbox/discovery/threat)

    I know it will create a problem for players with less experience or a less hands on approach to the combat gameplay, but overall I think it would add a bit of depth to overland and possibly gently nudge players into the direction of 'Ok, maybe I should check what I'm wearing and using in terms of skills'.

    I know ESO is trying to be a game for all, but the watered down version of overland can't last forever. We have the new player base now and it might be in all our best interests for them to follow a path.

    A non-optional uptick of difficulty in overland would drive me to quit. Combat is not what I want from any game, and the fact that I STILL die in overland to more than 2 or 3 mobs (with 600-700 cp on my PC NA accounts) means that I have to be careful already just trying to quest or do surveys. Part of that is high ping, part of it is my inability to bar swap and hit buttons properly in a rotation because I don't have young reflexes. And part of it is that i JUST HATE COMBAT. It's not fun. It's not how I want to gain XP. There is nothing "engaging" in the least about combat, but of course you can't find games without it!

    Optional is fine as I've said fairly often. Overall non-optional increase of difficulty is not fine.
    Edited by Sylvermynx on November 4, 2021 11:31PM
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