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Backlash buff was too much and needs to be toned down (PvP perspective)
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ealdwin✭✭✭✭✭
✭Backlash was used to do 7k 8k damage lot of patches ago, probably more than a year, and finally one day in a patch, they nerfed it like it deserved.
Here's the thing.... last time Backlash was dealing really significant damage in PVP was Scalebreaker, the DoT meta patch. And it dealt that much damage because DoTs were over-tuned and as a result the cap was easier to reach. Back then Backlash also copied damage from the Templar's Allies, and was a crucial skill for a Templar in any group setting. And not just for DDs, but also for Healers and Tanks. It was THE Templar group utility skill.
In the backlash to Scalebreaker's meta, Backlash ended up unfairly on the chopping board. It in itself wasn't over-performing, but its mechanics and group utility aspect meant that it benefitted from the berth of over-performing DoTs. But, ZOS set their sights on it and hit it with the nerf hammer, as they did to numerous other abilities in the Dragonhold patch (Entropy and morphs comes to mind as being absolutely butchered). And, so, the nerf handed down to Backlash was the loss of the group utility mechanic. In one patch it went from being a significant and useful tool Templars brought to a group to being a DD focused burst ability that fluctuated in and out of being worth the slot on a Templar's skill bar. An over-correction, and one that was ultimately unnecessary considering the absolute thrashing that DoT abilities also received that patch.4 -
MadeInVN✭✭✭✭Kryptonite_Kent wrote: »To sum up the entire content of this post.... anyone who doesnt agree with everything the OP says is a dumb noob and all his friends who are top tier leet god mode pvp players agree with him too... what a clown show lol
You ain’t wrong. But even among them there are ones worse than others, like someone here.2 -
MadeInVN✭✭✭✭Kryptonite_Kent wrote: »To sum up the entire content of this post.... anyone who doesnt agree with everything the OP says is a dumb noob and all his friends who are top tier leet god mode pvp players agree with him too... what a clown show lol
Also, no offense but you can tell who’s a good player from the content they post. A good player is usually objective and presents clear and concise arguments about an ability. It shows they understand the game. On the other hand, the not so good players will tell you to do generic and basic things that everyone knows about, and also tend to overreact. Just some food for thoughts.Edited by MadeInVN on August 25, 2021 2:48PM2 -
MadeInVN✭✭✭✭ResidentContrarian wrote: »Read especially the BOLD PART, what the Devs did say.
Now instead as the OP showed us, just few dots and light attacks can get you the maximum burst so easily.
The ability needs an adjustment asap.
So you think its bad that DoTs and light attacks that would otherwise be ignored can no longer be ignored and have to be actively defended against in addition to direct damage attacks? That is literally the crux of your and his argument for nerfing a skill that still isn't as good as BB/SA/Shalks IMO, and I challenge you or the dev team to explain how it's any different from another skill that does delayed damage, esp. when those skills hit harder on everyone in Cyrodiil not using a tanky-burst build and pretending to be a pro because they were carried by their builds.
Reading the bold part, I don't reach the same conclusion that you do.
I don't think it's a problem and I use glass builds that don't have a lot of hp, and they don't run purge. That says a lot about the skill, or "skill" if you want to put it that way.
Whenever someone uses the skill, I simply roll because they almost always attempt toppling, move in an arc to their side, attack back and they cannot keep the pressure up like he claims without having to respond to attacks that I make on them. With only major evasion and one immobolize I can do that and avoid a huge burst from the skill, yet a stam sorc cannot do it? Stam sorc has the tools do the same in class, but my guess is they don't think its worth slotting them -- kinda like I don't think magelight is worth slotting. Build decisions.
Tell me, how is it the case a glass build user can do this and manage even multiple users of the skill, but a "pro" in an armored one cannot? You know the answer...but if you do not yet, I will spell it out for you:
Either this guy and others are mad the skill encroaches on their 1vX, which is still possible despite being tagged with this skill -- yeah I can verify myself that the skill doesn't matter much, as can others that play -- OR this is simply all a production OR something I can't say without a warning.
The buff on paper is such a huuuuuuuge number - what a silly and dishonest statement.
Prior to the patch, no one even slotted that light skill because it would routinely hit for only 2k-3k crit even vs. me on my glass mag builds with only 8k resistances. In fact, it was so useless only meme templars slotted the skill because it was better to slot nearly any other attack or buff in that slot unless you wanted the secondary effects which weren't and still aren't that impressive.
For its cost the skill was trash, and honestly, even now I still wouldn't slot it on my magplar. Stamplar, maybe, due to a lack of good skills and because of a reason that has to do with overall mag-stam balance in the game.
Now, to claim that it's overbuffed because it's brought in line with other class burst damage is beyond silly when I can get people with 12k+ delayed burst on other classes.
In fact, I think it's more balanced than the skills on other classes because you always have the option of simply gaining distance and rolling to avoid a templar's damage completely. Templar still doesn't have the same power as spamming SA, BB, etc. and his claim that "major evasion exists to lower BB and SA" or in other words, passive mitigation, is simply a detraction from the point that he refuses to actively defend in battle because his build either cannot do it or he doesn't want to. Those are build decisions no matter how you or anyone else tries to slice it.
In a patch where a single heavy attack can do ridiculous damage to most people in PvP, to say a skill that requires avoidable and reduceable build up to burst is out of line or overperforming is simply ridiculous and not an honest conclusion to make.
I am sure the OP and others that agree the skill is too buffed probably don't like anything that punishes passive mitigation or goes through it. They don't like it because that means they have to play the game like everyone else and not hold the block button + heal through damage for a majority of fights.
I get it, your power fantasy was shattered. But please, be honest and stop pretending the skill is god-mode. This is literally on the same level as the complaints about weakness to elements change being godly...
Changes that happen in the game won't always favor you because you want them to, and that's how it should be. Nearly every patch in the game hasn't favored me, and yet I don't really care or foam over it because I know the game will never be balanced in my vision and that I, my build, and what I want, is not the end-all and only path that should be taken.
That's why I will continue to refute these arguments that appear on the forums like this. Someone has to set reality straight.
I play with 22-26k armor on a stamsorc with zero passive mitigation. In fact, I play with as little mitigation as possible to get more damage. That means I rely on my confidence in personal skill and good mechanics to survive.
The fact that you completely ignore to watch the video I posted, then claim I don’t like backlash punishing passive mitigation, shows you are misleading people and gaslighting me. Let me rephrase to you why I don’t like new backlash:
1) It stores damage way too easily on a class that has high pressure.
2) The counterplays are so ineffective they might as well not exist. And no, running away is not counterplay. That’s what cowards do.
The fact that you compare blastbones to backlash without looking at how templar’s spammable is the 2nd most busted spammable in the game, dealing 7-10k damage alone, and 10-13k damage if burning light procs, and how their entire toolkit can kill anyone but tanks, shows you just want to get the benefits of other classes without losing anything for compensation. The fact that you think I’m upset because I can’t 1vX anymore, shows you are making baseless assumptions that have nothing to do with the objective of the argument. Bad players will always get X’ed, whether they use new back lash or not. But I am all for class balance, and class imbalance shows best when two good players fight each other.
Hopefully you understand what I mean, for the 10th time.3 -
ResidentContrarian✭✭✭✭✭I play with 22-26k armor on a stamsorc with zero passive mitigation. In fact, I play with as little mitigation as possible to get more damage. That means I rely on my confidence in personal skill and good mechanics to survive.
The fact that you completely ignore to watch the video I posted, then claim I don’t like backlash punishing passive mitigation, shows you are misleading people and gaslighting me. Let me rephrase to you why I don’t like new backlash:
1) It stores damage way too easily on a class that has high pressure.
2) The counterplays are so ineffective they might as well not exist. And no, running away is not counterplay. That’s what cowards do.
The fact that you compare blastbones to backlash without looking at how templar’s spammable is the 2nd most busted spammable in the game, dealing 7-10k damage alone, and 10-13k damage if burning light procs, and how their entire toolkit can kill anyone but tanks, shows you just want to get the benefits of other classes without losing anything for compensation. The fact that you think I’m upset because I can’t 1vX anymore, shows you are making baseless assumptions that have nothing to do with the objective of the argument. Bad players will always get X’ed, whether they use new back lash or not. But I am all for class balance, and class imbalance shows best when two good players fight each other.
Hopefully you understand what I mean, for the 10th time.
All the bolded is not a retort, it just shows that you don't like the class and you want it nerfed. As expected...
Explain to me, if what you are saying is true, how it is a problem for you and not me or others in the game?
Also, putting your build out there is not helping solidify your argument, only proves you are using a build that isn't effective apparently v. anyone using backlash. Again, build decisions.5 -
MadeInVN✭✭✭✭
The video shows the counters for a templar don’t work as effectively as you think. You can maybe avoid the first or second topple stun, but the third one will get you and they have already built back lash damage to full with their AoE DoTs and light attack/topple spam.0 -
MadeInVN✭✭✭✭ResidentContrarian wrote: »I play with 22-26k armor on a stamsorc with zero passive mitigation. In fact, I play with as little mitigation as possible to get more damage. That means I rely on my confidence in personal skill and good mechanics to survive.
The fact that you completely ignore to watch the video I posted, then claim I don’t like backlash punishing passive mitigation, shows you are misleading people and gaslighting me. Let me rephrase to you why I don’t like new backlash:
1) It stores damage way too easily on a class that has high pressure.
2) The counterplays are so ineffective they might as well not exist. And no, running away is not counterplay. That’s what cowards do.
The fact that you compare blastbones to backlash without looking at how templar’s spammable is the 2nd most busted spammable in the game, dealing 7-10k damage alone, and 10-13k damage if burning light procs, and how their entire toolkit can kill anyone but tanks, shows you just want to get the benefits of other classes without losing anything for compensation. The fact that you think I’m upset because I can’t 1vX anymore, shows you are making baseless assumptions that have nothing to do with the objective of the argument. Bad players will always get X’ed, whether they use new back lash or not. But I am all for class balance, and class imbalance shows best when two good players fight each other.
Hopefully you understand what I mean, for the 10th time.
All the bolded is not a retort, it just shows that you don't like the class and you want it nerfed. As expected...
Explain to me, if what you are saying is true, how it is a problem for you and not me or others in the game?
Also, putting your build out there is not helping solidify your argument, only proves you are using a build that isn't effective apparently v. anyone using backlash. Again, build decisions.
All the bolded are a retort though. The only comparable delayed burst to backlash is haunting curse, as both are unblockable and undodgable. If you want to compare delayed bursts you need to look at those 2. Blastbones or subs are blockable, so the counterplays are clear and always effective. Hold block and mitigate 60% of the dmg.
Haunting curse and backlash aren’t as easy to counter. You have no purge? Well you just have to eat the damage and try to avoid the rest of their burst to heal up. But at least with magsorc you can avoid the damage since it’s mostly single target. With templar it’s all AoE, and their pressure is higher than magsorc. They also have a gap closer, so unless you run away from the fight at 200% speed with streak, you arent going to get away. But let me ask you this: If your solution of countering the templar is to run away, is that really counterplay or forfeiting the fight?
It is a problem for me and many other players. People think I am biased, but when even magplar mains think it’s been overbuffed, you know it’s an issue. So is it me being biased, or is it others that are biased?
Actually no, I intentionally put my build out there because you claimed that the build punishes passive mitigation. My build has very little passive mitigation. All my mitigation are active - dodge/block/heal/kite. If I cannot reliably counter a class with even the most basic defensive maneuvers, then the game failed to make a balance class.Edited by MadeInVN on August 25, 2021 4:07PM0 -
Greek_Hellspawn✭✭✭✭ResidentContrarian wrote: »I play with 22-26k armor on a stamsorc with zero passive mitigation. In fact, I play with as little mitigation as possible to get more damage. That means I rely on my confidence in personal skill and good mechanics to survive.
The fact that you completely ignore to watch the video I posted, then claim I don’t like backlash punishing passive mitigation, shows you are misleading people and gaslighting me. Let me rephrase to you why I don’t like new backlash:
1) It stores damage way too easily on a class that has high pressure.
2) The counterplays are so ineffective they might as well not exist. And no, running away is not counterplay. That’s what cowards do.
The fact that you compare blastbones to backlash without looking at how templar’s spammable is the 2nd most busted spammable in the game, dealing 7-10k damage alone, and 10-13k damage if burning light procs, and how their entire toolkit can kill anyone but tanks, shows you just want to get the benefits of other classes without losing anything for compensation. The fact that you think I’m upset because I can’t 1vX anymore, shows you are making baseless assumptions that have nothing to do with the objective of the argument. Bad players will always get X’ed, whether they use new back lash or not. But I am all for class balance, and class imbalance shows best when two good players fight each other.
Hopefully you understand what I mean, for the 10th time.
All the bolded is not a retort, it just shows that you don't like the class and you want it nerfed. As expected...
Explain to me, if what you are saying is true, how it is a problem for you and not me or others in the game?
Also, putting your build out there is not helping solidify your argument, only proves you are using a build that isn't effective apparently v. anyone using backlash. Again, build decisions.
All the bolded are a retort though. The only comparable delayed burst to backlash is haunting curse, as both are uncleansable, unblockable, and undodgable. If you want to compare delayed bursts you need to look at those 2. Blastbones or subs are blockable, so the counterplays are clear and always effective. Hold block and mitigate 60% of the dmg.
Haunting curse and backlash aren’t as easy to counter. You have no purge? Well you just have to eat the damage and try to avoid the rest of their burst to heal up. But at least with magsorc you can avoid the damage since it’s mostly single target. With templar it’s all AoE, and their pressure is higher than magsorc. They also have a gap closer, so unless you run away from the fight at 200% speed with streak, you arent going to get away. But let me ask you this: If your solution of countering the templar is to run away, is that really counterplay or forfeiting the fight?
It is a problem for me and many other players. People think I am biased, but when even magplar mains think it’s been overbuffed, you know it’s an issue. So is it me being biased, or is it others that are biased?
Actually no, I intentionally put my build out there because you claimed that the build punishes passive mitigation. My build has very little passive mitigation. All my mitigation are active - dodge/block/heal/kite. If I cannot reliably counter a class with even the most basic defensive maneuvers, then the game failed to make a balance class.
I am 99.9% sure haunting curse is cleanseable0 -
MadeInVN✭✭✭✭Greek_Hellspawn wrote: »ResidentContrarian wrote: »I play with 22-26k armor on a stamsorc with zero passive mitigation. In fact, I play with as little mitigation as possible to get more damage. That means I rely on my confidence in personal skill and good mechanics to survive.
The fact that you completely ignore to watch the video I posted, then claim I don’t like backlash punishing passive mitigation, shows you are misleading people and gaslighting me. Let me rephrase to you why I don’t like new backlash:
1) It stores damage way too easily on a class that has high pressure.
2) The counterplays are so ineffective they might as well not exist. And no, running away is not counterplay. That’s what cowards do.
The fact that you compare blastbones to backlash without looking at how templar’s spammable is the 2nd most busted spammable in the game, dealing 7-10k damage alone, and 10-13k damage if burning light procs, and how their entire toolkit can kill anyone but tanks, shows you just want to get the benefits of other classes without losing anything for compensation. The fact that you think I’m upset because I can’t 1vX anymore, shows you are making baseless assumptions that have nothing to do with the objective of the argument. Bad players will always get X’ed, whether they use new back lash or not. But I am all for class balance, and class imbalance shows best when two good players fight each other.
Hopefully you understand what I mean, for the 10th time.
All the bolded is not a retort, it just shows that you don't like the class and you want it nerfed. As expected...
Explain to me, if what you are saying is true, how it is a problem for you and not me or others in the game?
Also, putting your build out there is not helping solidify your argument, only proves you are using a build that isn't effective apparently v. anyone using backlash. Again, build decisions.
All the bolded are a retort though. The only comparable delayed burst to backlash is haunting curse, as both are uncleansable, unblockable, and undodgable. If you want to compare delayed bursts you need to look at those 2. Blastbones or subs are blockable, so the counterplays are clear and always effective. Hold block and mitigate 60% of the dmg.
Haunting curse and backlash aren’t as easy to counter. You have no purge? Well you just have to eat the damage and try to avoid the rest of their burst to heal up. But at least with magsorc you can avoid the damage since it’s mostly single target. With templar it’s all AoE, and their pressure is higher than magsorc. They also have a gap closer, so unless you run away from the fight at 200% speed with streak, you arent going to get away. But let me ask you this: If your solution of countering the templar is to run away, is that really counterplay or forfeiting the fight?
It is a problem for me and many other players. People think I am biased, but when even magplar mains think it’s been overbuffed, you know it’s an issue. So is it me being biased, or is it others that are biased?
Actually no, I intentionally put my build out there because you claimed that the build punishes passive mitigation. My build has very little passive mitigation. All my mitigation are active - dodge/block/heal/kite. If I cannot reliably counter a class with even the most basic defensive maneuvers, then the game failed to make a balance class.
I am 99.9% sure haunting curse is cleanseable
Oops I forgot. It is cleansable yea. Let me edit that again.0 -
Redguards_Revenge✭✭✭✭The scaling for backlash is way too much right now. It would be fine if backlash was dodgable or blockable, but it isnt at all. The only way for you to mitigate it is by cleansing it entirely which many classes don't have access to, or avoid taking enough damage for it to build up. But good players will just stack a bunch of DoTs on you and use radiant oppression and basically still build up the damage easily even if you run away.
This screenshot shows how much damage I took from purifying light after only taking 15.3k damage (most of them from DoTs). Before anyone tells me to stack more mitigation, yes I already have good mitigation with 26k armor and major evasion. You can see that by looking at his jab damage, which only did 1.4k per tick, and his burning light, which only did 2.7. A squishy build would take 2k jab ticks and 3k+ burning light ticks. Normally that kind of damage can usually be healed through, but the scaling of new backlash means you literally have to run away if someone puts backlash on you, because even the slightest amount of damage will build up for a fat proc.
I think a good solution that does not affect PvE is allowing backlash to be blocked or roll dodged.
EDIT: A lot of people think I didn't play correctly against these templars and it's a l2p issue, so I've included a video of an actual duel against my friend, a top tier magplar on PC NA. If you think you can do better than me, I would like you to duel my friend and show me.
https://youtu.be/5gvWM8PXmGA
I want you to play magplar or stamplar first. I want you to post a video of you PVPing as a magplar or stamplar. Then I want you to come back here and speak to us.
This way we know you walked in the shoes of the other class before placing your preferred class above all.
If I am not mistaken, streak affects everyone touched by it. Power of the light/Purifying light can be placed on many but doesn't mean anything because the only damage that can be added is the person who casted it.
The counter play is purge.
It may be unblockable and undodgable but the damage you accept is blockable and dodgable.
I saw you standing for about 2 minutes. Seems like there was a lot of counter playing occurring.
I will reiterate, let me see you succeed as a stam or magplar. THEN come back to us and tell us about it.
The man bided his time and took your number and you weren't able to stun him with your streak. You died, that's part of pvp, you live you learn.5 -
MadeInVN✭✭✭✭Redguards_Revenge wrote: »The scaling for backlash is way too much right now. It would be fine if backlash was dodgable or blockable, but it isnt at all. The only way for you to mitigate it is by cleansing it entirely which many classes don't have access to, or avoid taking enough damage for it to build up. But good players will just stack a bunch of DoTs on you and use radiant oppression and basically still build up the damage easily even if you run away.
This screenshot shows how much damage I took from purifying light after only taking 15.3k damage (most of them from DoTs). Before anyone tells me to stack more mitigation, yes I already have good mitigation with 26k armor and major evasion. You can see that by looking at his jab damage, which only did 1.4k per tick, and his burning light, which only did 2.7. A squishy build would take 2k jab ticks and 3k+ burning light ticks. Normally that kind of damage can usually be healed through, but the scaling of new backlash means you literally have to run away if someone puts backlash on you, because even the slightest amount of damage will build up for a fat proc.
I think a good solution that does not affect PvE is allowing backlash to be blocked or roll dodged.
EDIT: A lot of people think I didn't play correctly against these templars and it's a l2p issue, so I've included a video of an actual duel against my friend, a top tier magplar on PC NA. If you think you can do better than me, I would like you to duel my friend and show me.https://youtu.be/5gvWM8PXmGA
I want you to play magplar or stamplar first. I want you to post a video of you PVPing as a magplar or stamplar. Then I want you to come back here and speak to us.
This way we know you walked in the shoes of the other class before placing your preferred class above all.
If I am not mistaken, streak affects everyone touched by it. Power of the light/Purifying light can be placed on many but doesn't mean anything because the only damage that can be added is the person who casted it.
The counter play is purge.
It may be unblockable and undodgable but the damage you accept is blockable and dodgable.
I saw you standing for about 2 minutes. Seems like there was a lot of counter playing occurring.
I will reiterate, let me see you succeed as a stam or magplar. THEN come back to us and tell us about it.
The man bided his time and took your number and you weren't able to stun him with your streak. You died, that's part of pvp, you live you learn.
I actually play a stamplar, but yea let me get a clip. Do you prefer me to 1v1, 1vX, smallscale, BG, or zerg?0 -
Aldoss✭✭✭✭✭
✭While I agree with the OP that backlash is too hot right now and likely 35% would have been a better target, I'd like for people saying this skill is undodgeable/unblockable to realize that the mechanics that make up this skill are absolutely dodgeable/blockable - just not the proc in and of itself.
A templar needs to damage you in order to fill the backlash and get the most out of the proc. Those abilities during the 6 seconds are 100% dodgeable and blockable to overall reduce the incoming damage. To allow the skills that build the proc and the proc itself to be dodgeable and blockable is akin to the double battle spirit concept mentioned earlier - It isn't fair for battle spirit to be applied twice to this skill, it was already applied through the damaging attacks the templar used.
Again, after spending some time in BGs so far and having the experience of "oh, I can heal through this damage..." and then BOOM 14k PotL 6 seconds later.... I think 50% was way under thought.
In defense of shalks and blastbones, I know these skills hit hard. I see a blasbones, I block. I see a warden face me, I assume a shalk is about to hit me and either roll dodge or block as well. When I see a beam above my head and I don't have a purge, the damage I take doesn't feel like it's 14k worth. It's heavy, but manageable pressure and I heal through it, block some of it, dodge some of it. Yet, after 6 seconds of that experience, the proc has almost always been shocking when I see it on the death recap hitting for more than I get ult'd by.
20% was too low, but 50% is too high.1 -
Redguards_Revenge✭✭✭✭Redguards_Revenge wrote: »The scaling for backlash is way too much right now. It would be fine if backlash was dodgable or blockable, but it isnt at all. The only way for you to mitigate it is by cleansing it entirely which many classes don't have access to, or avoid taking enough damage for it to build up. But good players will just stack a bunch of DoTs on you and use radiant oppression and basically still build up the damage easily even if you run away.
This screenshot shows how much damage I took from purifying light after only taking 15.3k damage (most of them from DoTs). Before anyone tells me to stack more mitigation, yes I already have good mitigation with 26k armor and major evasion. You can see that by looking at his jab damage, which only did 1.4k per tick, and his burning light, which only did 2.7. A squishy build would take 2k jab ticks and 3k+ burning light ticks. Normally that kind of damage can usually be healed through, but the scaling of new backlash means you literally have to run away if someone puts backlash on you, because even the slightest amount of damage will build up for a fat proc.
I think a good solution that does not affect PvE is allowing backlash to be blocked or roll dodged.
EDIT: A lot of people think I didn't play correctly against these templars and it's a l2p issue, so I've included a video of an actual duel against my friend, a top tier magplar on PC NA. If you think you can do better than me, I would like you to duel my friend and show me.https://youtu.be/5gvWM8PXmGA
I want you to play magplar or stamplar first. I want you to post a video of you PVPing as a magplar or stamplar. Then I want you to come back here and speak to us.
This way we know you walked in the shoes of the other class before placing your preferred class above all.
If I am not mistaken, streak affects everyone touched by it. Power of the light/Purifying light can be placed on many but doesn't mean anything because the only damage that can be added is the person who casted it.
The counter play is purge.
It may be unblockable and undodgable but the damage you accept is blockable and dodgable.
I saw you standing for about 2 minutes. Seems like there was a lot of counter playing occurring.
I will reiterate, let me see you succeed as a stam or magplar. THEN come back to us and tell us about it.
The man bided his time and took your number and you weren't able to stun him with your streak. You died, that's part of pvp, you live you learn.
I actually play a stamplar, but yea let me get a clip. Do you prefer me to 1v1, 1vX, smallscale, BG, or zerg?
I would like to see a unedited video of you 1 v X ing as a stamplar. No productions please. Twitch it if you can.
EDIT: In BGs Prime Time. Saturday or Sunday evening.
Sorry I wasn't specific. I forget even I can 1 V X while standing and doing nothing. During some times in PVP.Edited by Redguards_Revenge on August 25, 2021 4:24PM3 -
MadeInVN✭✭✭✭Redguards_Revenge wrote: »Redguards_Revenge wrote: »The scaling for backlash is way too much right now. It would be fine if backlash was dodgable or blockable, but it isnt at all. The only way for you to mitigate it is by cleansing it entirely which many classes don't have access to, or avoid taking enough damage for it to build up. But good players will just stack a bunch of DoTs on you and use radiant oppression and basically still build up the damage easily even if you run away.
This screenshot shows how much damage I took from purifying light after only taking 15.3k damage (most of them from DoTs). Before anyone tells me to stack more mitigation, yes I already have good mitigation with 26k armor and major evasion. You can see that by looking at his jab damage, which only did 1.4k per tick, and his burning light, which only did 2.7. A squishy build would take 2k jab ticks and 3k+ burning light ticks. Normally that kind of damage can usually be healed through, but the scaling of new backlash means you literally have to run away if someone puts backlash on you, because even the slightest amount of damage will build up for a fat proc.
I think a good solution that does not affect PvE is allowing backlash to be blocked or roll dodged.
EDIT: A lot of people think I didn't play correctly against these templars and it's a l2p issue, so I've included a video of an actual duel against my friend, a top tier magplar on PC NA. If you think you can do better than me, I would like you to duel my friend and show me.https://youtu.be/5gvWM8PXmGA
I want you to play magplar or stamplar first. I want you to post a video of you PVPing as a magplar or stamplar. Then I want you to come back here and speak to us.
This way we know you walked in the shoes of the other class before placing your preferred class above all.
If I am not mistaken, streak affects everyone touched by it. Power of the light/Purifying light can be placed on many but doesn't mean anything because the only damage that can be added is the person who casted it.
The counter play is purge.
It may be unblockable and undodgable but the damage you accept is blockable and dodgable.
I saw you standing for about 2 minutes. Seems like there was a lot of counter playing occurring.
I will reiterate, let me see you succeed as a stam or magplar. THEN come back to us and tell us about it.
The man bided his time and took your number and you weren't able to stun him with your streak. You died, that's part of pvp, you live you learn.
I actually play a stamplar, but yea let me get a clip. Do you prefer me to 1v1, 1vX, smallscale, BG, or zerg?
I would like to see a unedited video of you 1 v X ing as a stamplar. No productions please. Twitch it if you can.
Sure there won’t be edits. But you must also watch it entirely, deal?0 -
MadeInVN✭✭✭✭While I agree with the OP that backlash is too hot right now and likely 35% would have been a better target, I'd like for people saying this skill is undodgeable/unblockable to realize that the mechanics that make up this skill are absolutely dodgeable/blockable - just not the proc in and of itself.
A templar needs to damage you in order to fill the backlash and get the most out of the proc. Those abilities during the 6 seconds are 100% dodgeable and blockable to overall reduce the incoming damage. To allow the skills that build the proc and the proc itself to be dodgeable and blockable is akin to the double battle spirit concept mentioned earlier - It isn't fair for battle spirit to be applied twice to this skill, it was already applied through the damaging attacks the templar used.
Again, after spending some time in BGs so far and having the experience of "oh, I can heal through this damage..." and then BOOM 14k PotL 6 seconds later.... I think 50% was way under thought.
In defense of shalks and blastbones, I know these skills hit hard. I see a blasbones, I block. I see a warden face me, I assume a shalk is about to hit me and either roll dodge or block as well. When I see a beam above my head and I don't have a purge, the damage I take doesn't feel like it's 14k worth. It's heavy, but manageable pressure and I heal through it, block some of it, dodge some of it. Yet, after 6 seconds of that experience, the proc has almost always been shocking when I see it on the death recap hitting for more than I get ult'd by.
20% was too low, but 50% is too high.
Precisely. That’s what I wanted to show as well. It isn’t that I can’t heal through the damage before the proc. It’s the fact that the damage stores so fast that you still take a fat proc even if the build up damage barely scratched you.0 -
Redguards_Revenge✭✭✭✭While I agree with the OP that backlash is too hot right now and likely 35% would have been a better target, I'd like for people saying this skill is undodgeable/unblockable to realize that the mechanics that make up this skill are absolutely dodgeable/blockable - just not the proc in and of itself.
A templar needs to damage you in order to fill the backlash and get the most out of the proc. Those abilities during the 6 seconds are 100% dodgeable and blockable to overall reduce the incoming damage. To allow the skills that build the proc and the proc itself to be dodgeable and blockable is akin to the double battle spirit concept mentioned earlier - It isn't fair for battle spirit to be applied twice to this skill, it was already applied through the damaging attacks the templar used.
Again, after spending some time in BGs so far and having the experience of "oh, I can heal through this damage..." and then BOOM 14k PotL 6 seconds later.... I think 50% was way under thought.
In defense of shalks and blastbones, I know these skills hit hard. I see a blasbones, I block. I see a warden face me, I assume a shalk is about to hit me and either roll dodge or block as well. When I see a beam above my head and I don't have a purge, the damage I take doesn't feel like it's 14k worth. It's heavy, but manageable pressure and I heal through it, block some of it, dodge some of it. Yet, after 6 seconds of that experience, the proc has almost always been shocking when I see it on the death recap hitting for more than I get ult'd by.
20% was too low, but 50% is too high.
Precisely. That’s what I wanted to show as well. It isn’t that I can’t heal through the damage before the proc. It’s the fact that the damage stores so fast that you still take a fat proc even if the build up damage barely scratched you.
There's more mechanics to PVP than just healing through the damage. Just like there is more mechanics than just DPSing through a boss. ZoS spoiled you all and made yall forget roll dodge and block.
Diversify your defenses.3 -
itscompton✭✭✭✭✭
✭gariondavey wrote: »gariondavey wrote: »So since everyone keeps telling me to “do this do that”, I’ll say this again:
It’s pointless to tell me those because I already do them.
It’s like telling someone who’s played football for years how to throw a football… You aren’t actually discussing the problem I’m bringing up, which is backlash. You are just telling me to do this or do that.
I would prefer people actually tell me why they think it is objectively a fine ability after the buff. That way we can get a more meaningful discussion.
Lmao. You don't, otherwise your recap would show massive amounts of healing over the 6 seconds.
I don't know what else to say here. The ability is fine. If you hate this I can't imagine how you handle a good magsorc, stamden, or necro. Those classes delayed bursts are way better. Lol.
Dude seriously lol.. It's like the point completely went over your head. Why would I show a screenshot of healing and damage when I'm trying to bring up a point about how easy it is to stack backlash?. Of course I healed through those tiny damage. But THAT IS NOT THE POINT lol. The point is again, how easy it is to store copied damage .
Your entire argument is based around whether I actually healed through it or not. You didn't even understand my argument. Instead you're just telling me what I might have done wrong without even knowing why I only included a screenshot with damage taken. Seriously dude please read my argument carefully before making comments like these.
I've fought a lot of good magsorcs stamdens and stamcros. They aren't a problem for me, and you can ask @Pelican or many players who duel in stormhaven. I don't need to explain to you about that lmao
I've read your argument. You stand there and get hit and do nothing.
If you think this is an issue when blastbones and other delayed burst abilities are superior, mathematically, I have no more words for you.
Best wishes.
I stood there to demonstrate how easy it is to store copied damage. Why is it so hard to understand? Like why would showing you that I healed through their damage mean anything? It doesn't because at the end of the proc, I would still eat a 9k proc even if I already healed through their damage build up.
You didn't understand my argument at all, instead you keep telling me I didn't heal. It doesn't freaking matter lol... Even if you healed through the 18k damage, you would still eat a 9k proc afterwards. That's the point I'm trying to make. The damage builds up too fast. Is it clear?
That right there was your mistake. You're trying to demonstrate how easy it is to store copied damage, but you base your arguement in a non-competitive encounter where you don't fight back, attempt to mitigate or heal. In other words a set of data that is non applicable to what it will be like to play with the ability in real game conditions.
Stand in one spot and let shalks hit you twice while the Warden supplements then with LA's and that will seem super broken too.
Edit: after watching more of the video he does do all three things but when viewed in slow mo it's easy to see when he does them correctly the skill hits for minimal damage (4-5K) compared to other delayed burst skills. It only hit's hard on an occasional crit where he spends six seconds soaking up solar barrage, an ult and it's dot plus a couple of LA's that crit for 3k plus and I get the distinct impression he could have finished the fight several times but pulls up before actually killing the Templar. Still I was wrong in my initial comment.
Edited by itscompton on August 25, 2021 8:46PM9 -
MadeInVN✭✭✭✭Redguards_Revenge wrote: »While I agree with the OP that backlash is too hot right now and likely 35% would have been a better target, I'd like for people saying this skill is undodgeable/unblockable to realize that the mechanics that make up this skill are absolutely dodgeable/blockable - just not the proc in and of itself.
A templar needs to damage you in order to fill the backlash and get the most out of the proc. Those abilities during the 6 seconds are 100% dodgeable and blockable to overall reduce the incoming damage. To allow the skills that build the proc and the proc itself to be dodgeable and blockable is akin to the double battle spirit concept mentioned earlier - It isn't fair for battle spirit to be applied twice to this skill, it was already applied through the damaging attacks the templar used.
Again, after spending some time in BGs so far and having the experience of "oh, I can heal through this damage..." and then BOOM 14k PotL 6 seconds later.... I think 50% was way under thought.
In defense of shalks and blastbones, I know these skills hit hard. I see a blasbones, I block. I see a warden face me, I assume a shalk is about to hit me and either roll dodge or block as well. When I see a beam above my head and I don't have a purge, the damage I take doesn't feel like it's 14k worth. It's heavy, but manageable pressure and I heal through it, block some of it, dodge some of it. Yet, after 6 seconds of that experience, the proc has almost always been shocking when I see it on the death recap hitting for more than I get ult'd by.
20% was too low, but 50% is too high.
Precisely. That’s what I wanted to show as well. It isn’t that I can’t heal through the damage before the proc. It’s the fact that the damage stores so fast that you still take a fat proc even if the build up damage barely scratched you.
There's more mechanics to PVP than just healing through the damage. Just like there is more mechanics than just DPSing through a boss. ZoS spoiled you all and made yall forget roll dodge and block.
Diversify your defenses.
Again, backlash is unblockable and undodgable. The only way to counter it is to avoid building up damage. Templars, specifically magplar or DoT plars, can easily build it up at range even if you try to create distance. I don't know how many times I have to repeat this to refute the same "dodge or block" comment. Just watch this video if you think "dodging and blocking" is simple.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5gvWM8PXmGA
0 -
MadeInVN✭✭✭✭itscompton wrote: »gariondavey wrote: »gariondavey wrote: »So since everyone keeps telling me to “do this do that”, I’ll say this again:
It’s pointless to tell me those because I already do them.
It’s like telling someone who’s played football for years how to throw a football… You aren’t actually discussing the problem I’m bringing up, which is backlash. You are just telling me to do this or do that.
I would prefer people actually tell me why they think it is objectively a fine ability after the buff. That way we can get a more meaningful discussion.
Lmao. You don't, otherwise your recap would show massive amounts of healing over the 6 seconds.
I don't know what else to say here. The ability is fine. If you hate this I can't imagine how you handle a good magsorc, stamden, or necro. Those classes delayed bursts are way better. Lol.
Dude seriously lol.. It's like the point completely went over your head. Why would I show a screenshot of healing and damage when I'm trying to bring up a point about how easy it is to stack backlash?. Of course I healed through those tiny damage. But THAT IS NOT THE POINT lol. The point is again, how easy it is to store copied damage .
Your entire argument is based around whether I actually healed through it or not. You didn't even understand my argument. Instead you're just telling me what I might have done wrong without even knowing why I only included a screenshot with damage taken. Seriously dude please read my argument carefully before making comments like these.
I've fought a lot of good magsorcs stamdens and stamcros. They aren't a problem for me, and you can ask @Pelican or many players who duel in stormhaven. I don't need to explain to you about that lmao
I've read your argument. You stand there and get hit and do nothing.
If you think this is an issue when blastbones and other delayed burst abilities are superior, mathematically, I have no more words for you.
Best wishes.
I stood there to demonstrate how easy it is to store copied damage. Why is it so hard to understand? Like why would showing you that I healed through their damage mean anything? It doesn't because at the end of the proc, I would still eat a 9k proc even if I already healed through their damage build up.
You didn't understand my argument at all, instead you keep telling me I didn't heal. It doesn't freaking matter lol... Even if you healed through the 18k damage, you would still eat a 9k proc afterwards. That's the point I'm trying to make. The damage builds up too fast. Is it clear?
That right there was your mistake. You're trying to demonstrate how easy it is to store copied damage, but you base your arguement in a non-competitive encounter where you don't fight back, attempt to mitigate or heal. In other words a set of data that is non applicable to what it will be like to play with the ability in real game conditions.
Stand in one spot and let shalks hit you twice while the Warden supplements then with LA's and that will seem super broken too.
I already demonstrated a video of a real fight. Maybe you should check it out before actually making a comment?https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5gvWM8PXmGA 0 -
ResidentContrarian✭✭✭✭✭While I agree with the OP that backlash is too hot right now and likely 35% would have been a better target, I'd like for people saying this skill is undodgeable/unblockable to realize that the mechanics that make up this skill are absolutely dodgeable/blockable - just not the proc in and of itself.
A templar needs to damage you in order to fill the backlash and get the most out of the proc. Those abilities during the 6 seconds are 100% dodgeable and blockable to overall reduce the incoming damage. To allow the skills that build the proc and the proc itself to be dodgeable and blockable is akin to the double battle spirit concept mentioned earlier - It isn't fair for battle spirit to be applied twice to this skill, it was already applied through the damaging attacks the templar used.
Again, after spending some time in BGs so far and having the experience of "oh, I can heal through this damage..." and then BOOM 14k PotL 6 seconds later.... I think 50% was way under thought.
In defense of shalks and blastbones, I know these skills hit hard. I see a blasbones, I block. I see a warden face me, I assume a shalk is about to hit me and either roll dodge or block as well. When I see a beam above my head and I don't have a purge, the damage I take doesn't feel like it's 14k worth. It's heavy, but manageable pressure and I heal through it, block some of it, dodge some of it. Yet, after 6 seconds of that experience, the proc has almost always been shocking when I see it on the death recap hitting for more than I get ult'd by.
20% was too low, but 50% is too high.
So the damage is too high because you can ignore damage with HoTs and other healing, and backlash punishes you for ignoring damage and not playing with active defense?
Again, maybe it's problematic that you think that you should be able to heal through all damage in the first place without consequence.
"In defense of shalk and blastbones..." really?
I can make a bet that if the light functioned like shalk and blastbones does, the forums would really explode.
What you and others here want is just a nerf so you can go back to ignoring damage and healing through it with little to no problems. That act of ignoring damage and healing through it itself isn't actually balanced, and now that you have something punish you for it or require you to use the roll and block buttons more, the skill is the problem?
Exactly what stops you from snaring, CCing, pushing damage out, blocking, rolling, purging, shield ult, etc. - there are lots of ways to drop that damage, what stops you from doing it?
I can't find the answer, because even I am capable of doing it on a build with 8k resistances!
I saw a post say "well you can dodge the first toppling and second, but the third..." - what? Please! You can dodge them all there is no difference between the first, second, and third application besides your stam being ran down. And if your stam sustain is that bad on any build, then it's a build decision that is leading to problems and not the skill.
Come, tell us all why you cannot do any of that, other than the behavior you ingrained into your playstyle ultimately being detrimental and the determining factor for why the skill is so effective on you?5 -
gariondavey✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭itscompton wrote: »gariondavey wrote: »gariondavey wrote: »So since everyone keeps telling me to “do this do that”, I’ll say this again:
It’s pointless to tell me those because I already do them.
It’s like telling someone who’s played football for years how to throw a football… You aren’t actually discussing the problem I’m bringing up, which is backlash. You are just telling me to do this or do that.
I would prefer people actually tell me why they think it is objectively a fine ability after the buff. That way we can get a more meaningful discussion.
Lmao. You don't, otherwise your recap would show massive amounts of healing over the 6 seconds.
I don't know what else to say here. The ability is fine. If you hate this I can't imagine how you handle a good magsorc, stamden, or necro. Those classes delayed bursts are way better. Lol.
Dude seriously lol.. It's like the point completely went over your head. Why would I show a screenshot of healing and damage when I'm trying to bring up a point about how easy it is to stack backlash?. Of course I healed through those tiny damage. But THAT IS NOT THE POINT lol. The point is again, how easy it is to store copied damage .
Your entire argument is based around whether I actually healed through it or not. You didn't even understand my argument. Instead you're just telling me what I might have done wrong without even knowing why I only included a screenshot with damage taken. Seriously dude please read my argument carefully before making comments like these.
I've fought a lot of good magsorcs stamdens and stamcros. They aren't a problem for me, and you can ask @Pelican or many players who duel in stormhaven. I don't need to explain to you about that lmao
I've read your argument. You stand there and get hit and do nothing.
If you think this is an issue when blastbones and other delayed burst abilities are superior, mathematically, I have no more words for you.
Best wishes.
I stood there to demonstrate how easy it is to store copied damage. Why is it so hard to understand? Like why would showing you that I healed through their damage mean anything? It doesn't because at the end of the proc, I would still eat a 9k proc even if I already healed through their damage build up.
You didn't understand my argument at all, instead you keep telling me I didn't heal. It doesn't freaking matter lol... Even if you healed through the 18k damage, you would still eat a 9k proc afterwards. That's the point I'm trying to make. The damage builds up too fast. Is it clear?
That right there was your mistake. You're trying to demonstrate how easy it is to store copied damage, but you base your arguement in a non-competitive encounter where you don't fight back, attempt to mitigate or heal. In other words a set of data that is non applicable to what it will be like to play with the ability in real game conditions.
Stand in one spot and let shalks hit you twice while the Warden supplements then with LA's and that will seem super broken too.
/threadPC NA @gariondavey, BG, IC & Cyrodiil Focused Since October 2017 Stamplar (main), Magplar, Magsorc, Stamsorc, StamDK, MagDK, Stamblade, Magblade, Magden, Stamden2 -
MadeInVN✭✭✭✭ResidentContrarian wrote: »While I agree with the OP that backlash is too hot right now and likely 35% would have been a better target, I'd like for people saying this skill is undodgeable/unblockable to realize that the mechanics that make up this skill are absolutely dodgeable/blockable - just not the proc in and of itself.
A templar needs to damage you in order to fill the backlash and get the most out of the proc. Those abilities during the 6 seconds are 100% dodgeable and blockable to overall reduce the incoming damage. To allow the skills that build the proc and the proc itself to be dodgeable and blockable is akin to the double battle spirit concept mentioned earlier - It isn't fair for battle spirit to be applied twice to this skill, it was already applied through the damaging attacks the templar used.
Again, after spending some time in BGs so far and having the experience of "oh, I can heal through this damage..." and then BOOM 14k PotL 6 seconds later.... I think 50% was way under thought.
In defense of shalks and blastbones, I know these skills hit hard. I see a blasbones, I block. I see a warden face me, I assume a shalk is about to hit me and either roll dodge or block as well. When I see a beam above my head and I don't have a purge, the damage I take doesn't feel like it's 14k worth. It's heavy, but manageable pressure and I heal through it, block some of it, dodge some of it. Yet, after 6 seconds of that experience, the proc has almost always been shocking when I see it on the death recap hitting for more than I get ult'd by.
20% was too low, but 50% is too high.
So the damage is too high because you can ignore damage with HoTs and other healing, and backlash punishes you for ignoring damage and not playing with active defense?
Again, maybe it's problematic that you think that you should be able to heal through all damage in the first place without consequence.
"In defense of shalk and blastbones..." really?
I can make a bet that if the light functioned like shalk and blastbones does, the forums would really explode.
What you and others here want is just a nerf so you can go back to ignoring damage and healing through it with little to no problems. That act of ignoring damage and healing through it itself isn't actually balanced, and now that you have something punish you for it or require you to use the roll and block buttons more, the skill is the problem?
Exactly what stops you from snaring, CCing, pushing damage out, blocking, rolling, purging, shield ult, etc. - there are lots of ways to drop that damage, what stops you from doing it?
I can't find the answer, because even I am capable of doing it on a build with 8k resistances!
I saw a post say "well you can dodge the first toppling and second, but the third..." - what? Please! You can dodge them all there is no difference between the first, second, and third application besides your stam being ran down. And if your stam sustain is that bad on any build, then it's a build decision that is leading to problems and not the skill.
Come, tell us all why you cannot do any of that, other than the behavior you ingrained into your playstyle ultimately being detrimental and the determining factor for why the skill is so effective on you?
Unless you plan on running away from the fight, you are going to eat a 10-14k backlash proc. I don't think you understand the point he made. He didn't say it was hard to survive the build up damage. He said even if you easily survive the build up damage, the proc has already stored enough damage to proc for 10-14k. That's the point of this thread, from all the screenshots I posted. It's not hard to survive the build up damage, but it's also not hard for the templar to chase you down and constantly apply damage to build up backlash.
With blastbones, you can just block the burst straight up. You can also run away then block it at a safer distance. The same principle applies to shalks. You simply cannot apply that logic to compare backlash to blastbones and subs because they are mitigatable by basic active defense. I can just sit here and block 5 jabs, but the proc will still hit me for 10k because of how fast the damage builds up. It's 50%, not 30%.
So telling people to block/roll/heal is utterly useless and misses the entire point of this thread.Edited by MadeInVN on August 25, 2021 4:56PM1 -
Redguards_Revenge✭✭✭✭Redguards_Revenge wrote: »While I agree with the OP that backlash is too hot right now and likely 35% would have been a better target, I'd like for people saying this skill is undodgeable/unblockable to realize that the mechanics that make up this skill are absolutely dodgeable/blockable - just not the proc in and of itself.
A templar needs to damage you in order to fill the backlash and get the most out of the proc. Those abilities during the 6 seconds are 100% dodgeable and blockable to overall reduce the incoming damage. To allow the skills that build the proc and the proc itself to be dodgeable and blockable is akin to the double battle spirit concept mentioned earlier - It isn't fair for battle spirit to be applied twice to this skill, it was already applied through the damaging attacks the templar used.
Again, after spending some time in BGs so far and having the experience of "oh, I can heal through this damage..." and then BOOM 14k PotL 6 seconds later.... I think 50% was way under thought.
In defense of shalks and blastbones, I know these skills hit hard. I see a blasbones, I block. I see a warden face me, I assume a shalk is about to hit me and either roll dodge or block as well. When I see a beam above my head and I don't have a purge, the damage I take doesn't feel like it's 14k worth. It's heavy, but manageable pressure and I heal through it, block some of it, dodge some of it. Yet, after 6 seconds of that experience, the proc has almost always been shocking when I see it on the death recap hitting for more than I get ult'd by.
20% was too low, but 50% is too high.
Precisely. That’s what I wanted to show as well. It isn’t that I can’t heal through the damage before the proc. It’s the fact that the damage stores so fast that you still take a fat proc even if the build up damage barely scratched you.
There's more mechanics to PVP than just healing through the damage. Just like there is more mechanics than just DPSing through a boss. ZoS spoiled you all and made yall forget roll dodge and block.
Diversify your defenses.
Again, backlash is unblockable and undodgable. The only way to counter it is to avoid building up damage. Templars, specifically magplar or DoT plars, can easily build it up at range even if you try to create distance. I don't know how many times I have to repeat this to refute the same "dodge or block" comment. Just watch this video if you think "dodging and blocking" is simple.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5gvWM8PXmGA
Hey did you know that by putting up you shield and this lowers the damage by 80%. Meaning that the damage stored wont go up as high. It will be theoretically 80% weaker.
Hey did you know that roll dodging most attacks will reduce the damage down to zero? This means that most of the damage won't be copied.
Hey did you know if you continue to move and try stay behind them, this reduces their damage they can put into you?
Hey did you know that it was not the light that killed you but your confidence. I took 2 light explosions from 2 different casters at similar times. I did not die. Have you ever thought about lowering your damage and investing in health and defense?
Lets face it, you only heal as your defense...because you put your crit up...and your weapon damage up and all this time you were SOOOOOOOOOOO happy that all you had to do was out heal incoming damage. Now that ZoS says you have to actually use all the pvp defense avenues than just healing you've been bent out of shape.
The problem is you not willing to change. I will give you some advice I found on the back of my PS2 Robotech game box.
"Change or Die"
Edited by Redguards_Revenge on August 25, 2021 5:02PM7 -
MadeInVN✭✭✭✭I would rather have templar get a blockable/dodgable up front burst than having this build up mechanic that just got overbuffed to where even 7 light attacks from RANGE can still proc it for 8-9k damage. Like there is no way to defend that kind of fast build up. What are you going to do when someone spams light attack at you from range with radiant oppression to build up backlash? Are you just going to run away and hide in a corner? That's the kind of "counterplay" you are telling me and many people to do?
That's not counterplay man. That's running from the fight.1 -
ResidentContrarian✭✭✭✭✭Unless you plan on running away from the fight, you are going to eat a 10-14k backlash proc. I don't think you understand the point he made. He didn't say it was hard to survive the build up damage. He said even if you easily survive the build up damage, the proc has already stored enough damage to proc for 10-14k. That's the point of this thread, from all the screenshots I posted. It's not hard to survive the build up damage, but it's also not hard for the templar to chase you down and constantly apply damage to build up backlash.
With blastbones, you can just block the burst straight up. You can also run away then block it at a safer distance. The same principle applies to shalks. You simply cannot apply that logic to compare blastbones and subs because they are mitigatable by basic active defense. I can just sit here and block 5 jabs, but the proc will still hit me for 10k because of how fast the damage builds up. It's 50%, not 30%.
So telling people to block/roll/heal is utterly useless and misses the entire point of this thread.
False, you won't take that high of a damage from it. I know because i use a glass build and get hit by the skill all the time on live, and it's not that as strong as people here keep claiming once you actually use any of those counters I said to deny building up damage in the first place.
"So telling people to block/roll/heal is utterly useless and misses the entire point of this thread."
Of course it does, because the entire point of the thread is for you to pretend a skill is massively overperforming by showing a complete production in an attempt to get a skill nerfed because you either don't like it, don't like the class, don't like having to change behavior, or don't like having to lose.
Whatever the reason, the problem is that reality is not lining up with the claims that you make. To say a skill like it has little counters is literally illogical. If we take a systems view of the approach, then light's damage is a subsystem within the total damage you take. All of the total damage you take is counterable, so logically, so must be light's damage.
And in reality that is actually the case, no matter how much you or anyone else tries to deny it. Logically, your arguments aren't stable, and that is why many people do not agree.8 -
MadeInVN✭✭✭✭Redguards_Revenge wrote: »Redguards_Revenge wrote: »While I agree with the OP that backlash is too hot right now and likely 35% would have been a better target, I'd like for people saying this skill is undodgeable/unblockable to realize that the mechanics that make up this skill are absolutely dodgeable/blockable - just not the proc in and of itself.
A templar needs to damage you in order to fill the backlash and get the most out of the proc. Those abilities during the 6 seconds are 100% dodgeable and blockable to overall reduce the incoming damage. To allow the skills that build the proc and the proc itself to be dodgeable and blockable is akin to the double battle spirit concept mentioned earlier - It isn't fair for battle spirit to be applied twice to this skill, it was already applied through the damaging attacks the templar used.
Again, after spending some time in BGs so far and having the experience of "oh, I can heal through this damage..." and then BOOM 14k PotL 6 seconds later.... I think 50% was way under thought.
In defense of shalks and blastbones, I know these skills hit hard. I see a blasbones, I block. I see a warden face me, I assume a shalk is about to hit me and either roll dodge or block as well. When I see a beam above my head and I don't have a purge, the damage I take doesn't feel like it's 14k worth. It's heavy, but manageable pressure and I heal through it, block some of it, dodge some of it. Yet, after 6 seconds of that experience, the proc has almost always been shocking when I see it on the death recap hitting for more than I get ult'd by.
20% was too low, but 50% is too high.
Precisely. That’s what I wanted to show as well. It isn’t that I can’t heal through the damage before the proc. It’s the fact that the damage stores so fast that you still take a fat proc even if the build up damage barely scratched you.
There's more mechanics to PVP than just healing through the damage. Just like there is more mechanics than just DPSing through a boss. ZoS spoiled you all and made yall forget roll dodge and block.
Diversify your defenses.
Again, backlash is unblockable and undodgable. The only way to counter it is to avoid building up damage. Templars, specifically magplar or DoT plars, can easily build it up at range even if you try to create distance. I don't know how many times I have to repeat this to refute the same "dodge or block" comment. Just watch this video if you think "dodging and blocking" is simple.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5gvWM8PXmGA
Hey did you know that by putting up you shield and this lowers the damage by 80%. Meaning that the damage stored wont go up as high. It will be theoretically 80% weaker.
Hey did you know that roll dodging most attacks will reduce the damage down to zero? This means that most of the damage won't be copied.
Hey did you know if you continue to move and try stay behind them, this reduces their damage they can put into you?
Hey did you know that it was not the light that killed you but your confidence. I took 2 light explosions from 2 different casters at similar times. I did not die. Have you ever thought about lowering your damage and investing in health and defense?
Lets face it, you only heal as your defense...because you put your crit up...and your weapon damage up and all this time you were SOOOOOOOOOOO happy that all you had to do was out heal incoming damage. Now that ZoS says you have to actually use all the pvp defense avenues than just healing you've been bent out of shape.
The problem is you not willing to change. I will give you some advice I found on the back of my PS2 Robotech game box.
"Change or Die"
https://ia803204.us.archive.org/21/items/robotech-battlecry-ps2-hiresscans/Robotech - Battlecry - Box.jpg
Hey did you know that it doesn't work because there are things called Damage Over Time effects that completely ignore blocking/rolling.
I'm sorry but everything you've said is basic knowledge. If they worked I wouldn't be here talking lol1 -
MadeInVN✭✭✭✭Redguards_Revenge wrote: »Redguards_Revenge wrote: »While I agree with the OP that backlash is too hot right now and likely 35% would have been a better target, I'd like for people saying this skill is undodgeable/unblockable to realize that the mechanics that make up this skill are absolutely dodgeable/blockable - just not the proc in and of itself.
A templar needs to damage you in order to fill the backlash and get the most out of the proc. Those abilities during the 6 seconds are 100% dodgeable and blockable to overall reduce the incoming damage. To allow the skills that build the proc and the proc itself to be dodgeable and blockable is akin to the double battle spirit concept mentioned earlier - It isn't fair for battle spirit to be applied twice to this skill, it was already applied through the damaging attacks the templar used.
Again, after spending some time in BGs so far and having the experience of "oh, I can heal through this damage..." and then BOOM 14k PotL 6 seconds later.... I think 50% was way under thought.
In defense of shalks and blastbones, I know these skills hit hard. I see a blasbones, I block. I see a warden face me, I assume a shalk is about to hit me and either roll dodge or block as well. When I see a beam above my head and I don't have a purge, the damage I take doesn't feel like it's 14k worth. It's heavy, but manageable pressure and I heal through it, block some of it, dodge some of it. Yet, after 6 seconds of that experience, the proc has almost always been shocking when I see it on the death recap hitting for more than I get ult'd by.
20% was too low, but 50% is too high.
Precisely. That’s what I wanted to show as well. It isn’t that I can’t heal through the damage before the proc. It’s the fact that the damage stores so fast that you still take a fat proc even if the build up damage barely scratched you.
There's more mechanics to PVP than just healing through the damage. Just like there is more mechanics than just DPSing through a boss. ZoS spoiled you all and made yall forget roll dodge and block.
Diversify your defenses.
Again, backlash is unblockable and undodgable. The only way to counter it is to avoid building up damage. Templars, specifically magplar or DoT plars, can easily build it up at range even if you try to create distance. I don't know how many times I have to repeat this to refute the same "dodge or block" comment. Just watch this video if you think "dodging and blocking" is simple.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5gvWM8PXmGA
Hey did you know that by putting up you shield and this lowers the damage by 80%. Meaning that the damage stored wont go up as high. It will be theoretically 80% weaker.
Hey did you know that roll dodging most attacks will reduce the damage down to zero? This means that most of the damage won't be copied.
Hey did you know if you continue to move and try stay behind them, this reduces their damage they can put into you?
Hey did you know that it was not the light that killed you but your confidence. I took 2 light explosions from 2 different casters at similar times. I did not die. Have you ever thought about lowering your damage and investing in health and defense?
Lets face it, you only heal as your defense...because you put your crit up...and your weapon damage up and all this time you were SOOOOOOOOOOO happy that all you had to do was out heal incoming damage. Now that ZoS says you have to actually use all the pvp defense avenues than just healing you've been bent out of shape.
The problem is you not willing to change. I will give you some advice I found on the back of my PS2 Robotech game box.
"Change or Die"
Actually now that I think about it your entire post sounds like a big fat sarcastic post. I had a good laugh lol0 -
MadeInVN✭✭✭✭ResidentContrarian wrote: »Unless you plan on running away from the fight, you are going to eat a 10-14k backlash proc. I don't think you understand the point he made. He didn't say it was hard to survive the build up damage. He said even if you easily survive the build up damage, the proc has already stored enough damage to proc for 10-14k. That's the point of this thread, from all the screenshots I posted. It's not hard to survive the build up damage, but it's also not hard for the templar to chase you down and constantly apply damage to build up backlash.
With blastbones, you can just block the burst straight up. You can also run away then block it at a safer distance. The same principle applies to shalks. You simply cannot apply that logic to compare blastbones and subs because they are mitigatable by basic active defense. I can just sit here and block 5 jabs, but the proc will still hit me for 10k because of how fast the damage builds up. It's 50%, not 30%.
So telling people to block/roll/heal is utterly useless and misses the entire point of this thread.
False, you won't take that high of a damage from it. I know because i use a glass build and get hit by the skill all the time on live, and it's not that as strong as people here keep claiming once you actually use any of those counters I said to deny building up damage in the first place.
"So telling people to block/roll/heal is utterly useless and misses the entire point of this thread."
Of course it does, because the entire point of the thread is for you to pretend a skill is massively overperforming by showing a complete production in an attempt to get a skill nerfed because you either don't like it, don't like the class, don't like having to change behavior, or don't like having to lose.
Whatever the reason, the problem is that reality is not lining up with the claims that you make. To say a skill like it has little counters is literally illogical. If we take a systems view of the approach, then light's damage is a subsystem within the total damage you take. All of the total damage you take is counterable, so logically, so must be light's damage.
And in reality that is actually the case, no matter how much you or anyone else tries to deny it. Logically, your arguments aren't stable, and that is why many people do not agree.
Alright why don't you post a video to prove your point? I've done my fair share of posting evidence. Where is your evidence ?0