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Backlash buff was too much and needs to be toned down (PvP perspective)
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Magio_✭✭✭✭Maybe I can help Static Wave a bit. From what I understand of his point is: the damage could be fine, if the Templar had to work for it in that 6s duration. From what he posted, it seems a Templar can achieve max tooltip with a few DoTs and maybe 2 LA+skill weaves in 6 seconds?
So, the main point is: if you counter pressure a Templar to defend themselves to the point they are only be able to cast 33% of their active offensive rotation in their 6s window, Backlash shouldn't be hitting for max tooltip damage considering it can't be blocked or dodged. Give or take on the exact percentage of "missed attacks".
Everything else everyone else is saying [snip] is irrelevant to his argument.
[edited for baiting]Edited by ZOS_Icy on August 29, 2021 11:49AM5 -
Pepegrillos✭✭✭✭✭So, what is the argument?
That backlash can do too much damage in some situations?
That part of the counterplay to it is not available to every class (unless they slot the variant in the pvp skill line)?
I'm not sure if I'm missing something.
I guess whether Zos fine tunes the damage will depend on whether backlash does too much damage on average in all the situations they deem relevant (which might involve duels, or not).
1 -
MadeInVN✭✭✭✭Maybe I can help Static Wave a bit. From what I understand of his point is: the damage could be fine, if the Templar had to work for it in that 6s duration. From what he posted, it seems a Templar can achieve max tooltip with a few DoTs and maybe 2 LA+skill weaves in 6 seconds?
So, the main point is: if you counter pressure a Templar to defend themselves to the point they are only be able to cast 33% of their active offensive rotation in their 6s window, Backlash shouldn't be hitting for max tooltip damage considering it can't be blocked or dodged. Give or take on the exact percentage of "missed attacks".
Everything else everyone else is saying [snip] is irrelevant to his argument.
Thank you Magio. You summed it up perfectly.
[edited to remove quote]Edited by ZOS_Icy on August 29, 2021 11:49AM0 -
MadeInVN✭✭✭✭Pepegrillos wrote: »So, what is the argument?
That backlash can do too much damage in some situations?
That part of the counterplay to it is not available to every class (unless they slot the variant in the pvp skill line)?
I'm not sure if I'm missing something.
I guess whether Zos fine tunes the damage will depend on whether backlash does too much damage on average in all the situations they deem relevant (which might involve duels, or not).
The argument is the damage stores way too fast, leading to scenarios where you only apply 6 light attacks and can nearly reach max tooltip. I think the damage is entirely fine. It's just the build up is way too fast and doesn't require a templar to put in any real effort.3 -
Redguards_Revenge✭✭✭✭I would rather have templar get a blockable/dodgable up front burst than having this build up mechanic that just got overbuffed to where even 7 light attacks from RANGE can still proc it for 8-9k damage. Like there is no way to defend that kind of fast build up. What are you going to do when someone spams light attack at you from range with radiant oppression to build up backlash? Are you just going to run away and hide in a corner? That's the kind of "counterplay" you are telling me and many people to do?
That's not counterplay man. That's running from the fight.
Did you know 1hand 1shield has an ability to reflect projectiles?
Did you know you can roll dodge TOWARDs the opponent?
Did you know you can just go straight to them in their face and throw more damage into them. Make them stop attacking.
You say you don't want to run but you always use streak to distance yourself. That's a contradiction.
I think you need to invest in a good resto staff or 1 hand 1 shield. Either one will save your life. I am leaning towards 1 hand one shield.
'
When are you going to change? It's time to put down your current armors and weapons and go farm the new dungeon or something. That's what ZoS wants. They don't want you to ever stick to the same set for years.
Now calm down and listen to a great song. it should help you finally realize you'll need to change.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rUuHxyYqUSU 2 -
Aldoss✭✭✭✭✭
✭@ResidentContrarian I'm confused why you quote me and then argue against things I never said.
I don't think I should be able to heal through all damage and tank it. That's what backlash used to be and I agree that it was unfair for templars to be given something so weak. I think my assessment was more than fair: backlash needed a buff, but jumping from 20% to 50% was massive and should be looked at.0 -
ResidentContrarian✭✭✭✭✭@ResidentContrarian I'm confused why you quote me and then argue against things I never said.
I don't think I should be able to heal through all damage and tank it. That's what backlash used to be and I agree that it was unfair for templars to be given something so weak. I think my assessment was more than fair: backlash needed a buff, but jumping from 20% to 50% was massive and should be looked at.
You don't have to say it because I know your build. I know your playstyle from what you said. Considering the game has a limited set of actions in a scenario, it's not that hard to know who, what,where, why, and exactly what builds and playstyles would be affected by what changes.
Further proof is that if that were not the case and you used active defense and/or had a build that could sustain it, then you would not even bother commenting what you did.
But you can deny it and then say it is not the case, doesn't change the reality that the lack of active defense on your part is the real issue when it comes to the skill.1 -
Aldoss✭✭✭✭✭
✭@ResidentContrarian cheers. I said my piece and am not invested enough in this topic to continue to argue for it. Come what may.0 -
itscompton✭✭✭✭✭
✭itscompton wrote: »gariondavey wrote: »gariondavey wrote: »So since everyone keeps telling me to “do this do that”, I’ll say this again:
It’s pointless to tell me those because I already do them.
It’s like telling someone who’s played football for years how to throw a football… You aren’t actually discussing the problem I’m bringing up, which is backlash. You are just telling me to do this or do that.
I would prefer people actually tell me why they think it is objectively a fine ability after the buff. That way we can get a more meaningful discussion.
Lmao. You don't, otherwise your recap would show massive amounts of healing over the 6 seconds.
I don't know what else to say here. The ability is fine. If you hate this I can't imagine how you handle a good magsorc, stamden, or necro. Those classes delayed bursts are way better. Lol.
Dude seriously lol.. It's like the point completely went over your head. Why would I show a screenshot of healing and damage when I'm trying to bring up a point about how easy it is to stack backlash?. Of course I healed through those tiny damage. But THAT IS NOT THE POINT lol. The point is again, how easy it is to store copied damage .
Your entire argument is based around whether I actually healed through it or not. You didn't even understand my argument. Instead you're just telling me what I might have done wrong without even knowing why I only included a screenshot with damage taken. Seriously dude please read my argument carefully before making comments like these.
I've fought a lot of good magsorcs stamdens and stamcros. They aren't a problem for me, and you can ask @Pelican or many players who duel in stormhaven. I don't need to explain to you about that lmao
I've read your argument. You stand there and get hit and do nothing.
If you think this is an issue when blastbones and other delayed burst abilities are superior, mathematically, I have no more words for you.
Best wishes.
I stood there to demonstrate how easy it is to store copied damage. Why is it so hard to understand? Like why would showing you that I healed through their damage mean anything? It doesn't because at the end of the proc, I would still eat a 9k proc even if I already healed through their damage build up.
You didn't understand my argument at all, instead you keep telling me I didn't heal. It doesn't freaking matter lol... Even if you healed through the 18k damage, you would still eat a 9k proc afterwards. That's the point I'm trying to make. The damage builds up too fast. Is it clear?
That right there was your mistake. You're trying to demonstrate how easy it is to store copied damage, but you base your arguement in a non-competitive encounter where you don't fight back, attempt to mitigate or heal. In other words a set of data that is non applicable to what it will be like to play with the ability in real game conditions.
Stand in one spot and let shalks hit you twice while the Warden supplements then with LA's and that will seem super broken too.
I already demonstrated a video of a real fight. Maybe you should check it out before actually making a comment?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5gvWM8PXmGA
Ok I watched the whole thing now and while you don't stand in one spot your performance from a competitive standpoint was far from optimal. There were several times that your minimal attacks took him down to 50% health and probably could have finished him by applying a bit of pressure instead of streaking away and waiting for him to topple charge you again.
The hardest I saw it hit was 13.6K at the 20 second mark. However for context at 8 seconds you have him in well within execute range and plenty of stam yet choose to cast a vigor and start dancing around when he turtles and starts block casting heals. He drops block at 10 seconds and from then until he applies backlash at 14 seconds you light attack him twice. When he applies PL at 14 seconds your response is to move into him (but not streak even though he's off cc cooldown) to put you in range of his ultimate and solar barrage, you then attempt to back away, roll dodge, and finally streak at 18 seconds so your actually out of his dots, you then eat a ranged LA for 3279 before the BL hits. During that whole six second window your offensive response is to LA him one time.
Definitely not a real world scenario and because of that it doesn't show that it's easy to build up a PL backlash in an actual fight, it shows it's easy to build a PL backlash against someone that stays in range and does nothing but streak and dodgeroll for 2 minutes while making no reasonable attempt to sustain pressure on the Temp in return.
And that there is the true crux and where my original response to this thread comes back in to play. You've got 36K health stacked, barely attack him and are still able to get him to less than 30% health almost instantly (w/o using your ready and waiting dawnbreaker in the combo) at the 8 second mark. To me that means you've got him set up as a Max damage full glass cannon to do the absolute most damage possible with backlash to help you make your point.
If I was on PC I'd happily duel that build with my MagSorc, but alas I'm on PS.Edited by itscompton on August 26, 2021 9:38PM9 -
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Forum Rules | Code of Conduct | Terms of Service | Home Page | Help Site0 -
itscompton✭✭✭✭✭
✭Also if you watch the video from 32 seconds to 38 seconds you can see all the recommended counters do indeed work. You block his initial attacks, strafe to the side as he jabs to make them miss and roll dodge to put yourself out of his dots, then finally you go on the offensive and actually pressure him for the last 1.5 seconds, all of which results in a backlash explosion of only 4192. You supplied the proof yourself.
Edit: you never streak more than once and almost always turn right back into him, so of course he'll be able to gap close you.Edited by itscompton on August 25, 2021 7:53PM6 -
Redguards_Revenge✭✭✭✭I've sat down and thought about this and maybe others have said this as well.
Ok, so when you get hurt, you just distance yourself and keep healing. That is where your problem is.
You NEED to double down and attack even more. Force him to back up and heal. If he doesn't well then whoever throws out the more damage wins.
Don't think, just attack.
You are essentially letting the person add free damage on you when you streak away and go heal. You are being punished by your old habits. Instead of doing that stay close moving behind him. You can roll dodge forward passed him and then end up behind and attack. Use Elude or Dual Wield cloak to lower jab damage by 20%.
I still say your best bet is 1hand 1 shield and some health. Then use shield ult.
When you have DoTs on you have to use purge. So either make a larger mag pool for it, or wear a set that purges DoT when you heal.
You need to change your build and sacrifice some of your damage. For more defense.
OR
You can do like me when ZoS changed Redguard. For the worst in my opinion.
I changed.
You may find something amazing.
I had one build but ZoSs lag does not allow me to use it in prime time. Infinite stamina. It was getting stupid dying from not being able to break free and looking to the left and seeing 90% stamina.
Then I got rid of that build and removed all my recovery all my stam and mag....and made a Ulti build.
You know how they say stam build, mag build, health build? This one is an Ulti build.
I love popping ultis every 10 seconds. Since I don't have recovery it makes it tricky. I am still tweaking this build. One of them, depending on who it is, I can never die in a 1 v 1. I balanced everything. Heavy attacking biding time for the ulti to go back up. its a fun build. One I won't share because it can not be used by the average person. It's NICHE. The damage is weak. I have to wait until the person blows all their resources trying to kill me then finally I can go in with my weak attacks and then they die.
The other one is not as tanky but dropping a decent dawnbreaker every 10 seconds is so great. The problem is that some people just do so much damage. So I go back to the tanky ulti build and just kill their power fantasy.
I realized it was more fun killing their power fantasy than actually killing....
You have to accept that you won't be able to kill everyone in the game.3 -
itscompton✭✭✭✭✭
✭Look at 58 seconds to 1:04. You actually go on the offensive and stay right in his face the whole six seconds PL is up, the resulting backlash is 4483.Edited by itscompton on August 25, 2021 8:38PM10 -
Yasha✭✭✭✭✭I just think it is amazing that they buffed a skill by 250% and it is still arguably worse/weaker than the delayed burst skills available to other classes.9
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MadeInVN✭✭✭✭Alright let me make something clear because apparently a lot of people seem to think I can just "apply pressure" and my friend would back off. It's normally true if you are fighting a less experienced player. But in THIS case, it is not true because of 2 reasons:
1) I am in a class with a build that is not built around dealing sustained pressure. Stamsorc is a burst class, not a pressure class. You can see this from the class abilities they have, such as crystal weapon and bound armaments. All of those are burst damage and do not deal sustained damage. Moreover, I am in a 2h/SnB build, which we all know is a single target burst build. When you play a stamsorc with a 2h/SnB build, you can't just "spam dizzy", because any good opponent would easily counter it. This is clearly shown around the 1:00 minute mark. Unless you have the damage to deal a 10k dizzy, you are not going to "pressure" anybody that has good HoTs. It certainly won't happen against a magplar. What you can do is frontload all your damage into a 1 second window to drop the templar low enough so his HoTs don't heal him in time.
2) My friend is not thumbless. No good player is going to let you "pressure' them. This is compounded by reason 1). When you try to counter pressure someone, you need to know if you have the HoTs to keep you on the offense and pressure to match the magplar or not. A magdk can almost certainly counter pressure a magplar because they have insane pressure, enough to force the magplar on back bar almost immediately if it tries to attack the dk. A 2h/SnB stamsorc though, not gonna happen in a million years. It doesn't have any DoTs or enough HoTs. So when you try to apply pressure by spamming dizzy, you will realize that you messed up big time because the magplar can literally just hold block and prevent you from doing any significant damage, like at 1:00 minute, WHILE ALSO EATING AT YOUR HP WITH THEIR DOTS. Then they just turn at you with toppling charge and beat you up.
This is exactly why some classes are stronger than others in a dueling scenario. Classes like magplar and magdk are always up there because they have very good pressure and burst. Classes like stamsorc are only good for OW and BGs because they only have burst, not pressure. If you're good enough, you can get around this issue by playing defensive and catching your opponent off-guard, like I did at the beginning of the video when I almost got him. But this only happens if you can actually survive the templar damage in the first place to find holes in their gameplay. I hope that makes sense to anyone.2 -
Sephyr✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Pepegrillos wrote: »So, what is the argument?
That backlash can do too much damage in some situations?
That part of the counterplay to it is not available to every class (unless they slot the variant in the pvp skill line)?
I'm not sure if I'm missing something.
I guess whether Zos fine tunes the damage will depend on whether backlash does too much damage on average in all the situations they deem relevant (which might involve duels, or not).
The argument is the damage stores way too fast, leading to scenarios where you only apply 6 light attacks and can nearly reach max tooltip. I think the damage is entirely fine. It's just the build up is way too fast and doesn't require a templar to put in any real effort.
So for the sake of conversation here, what would be a good compromise to stop the damage store from being applied too quickly? Reduction of how much damage is stored came to mind, but I really have a hard time playing Templar so this is more in the sake of "what can be done" and try to get a feedback train going. It's more than just you talking about this, some in my guilds have even referenced this thread directly.0 -
MadeInVN✭✭✭✭Pepegrillos wrote: »So, what is the argument?
That backlash can do too much damage in some situations?
That part of the counterplay to it is not available to every class (unless they slot the variant in the pvp skill line)?
I'm not sure if I'm missing something.
I guess whether Zos fine tunes the damage will depend on whether backlash does too much damage on average in all the situations they deem relevant (which might involve duels, or not).
The argument is the damage stores way too fast, leading to scenarios where you only apply 6 light attacks and can nearly reach max tooltip. I think the damage is entirely fine. It's just the build up is way too fast and doesn't require a templar to put in any real effort.
So for the sake of conversation here, what would be a good compromise to stop the damage store from being applied too quickly? Reduction of how much damage is stored came to mind, but I really have a hard time playing Templar so this is more in the sake of "what can be done" and try to get a feedback train going. It's more than just you talking about this, some in my guilds have even referenced this thread directly.
I've asked quite a few templar mains and they suggested somewhere around 30-35% damage stored. The battle spirit damage mitigation can also be reverted as well, giving templars extra damage output to build up backlash faster. One of them even suggested that backlash can be blocked, but deals AoE damage to put it in line with delayed bursts like blastbones and shalks.
Personally, I think the suggestion of backlash being blockable but dealing AoE damage with the current 50% damage copy is a good solution. Someone in this thread asked me to 1vX on stamplar to understand their struggles, and I did right after I got temp banned. Survivability wasn't an issue, but the issue was getting backlash to build up when you are fighting multiple opponents. Obviously, blastbones and shalks are much better than backlash in this scenario, but that's why I think making backlash blockable while also dealing AoE dmg is a good change. You can essentially replicate blastbone's AoE dmg if you apply it on 2 players and store enough damage to proc them at the same time.
2 -
ResidentContrarian✭✭✭✭✭Pepegrillos wrote: »So, what is the argument?
That backlash can do too much damage in some situations?
That part of the counterplay to it is not available to every class (unless they slot the variant in the pvp skill line)?
I'm not sure if I'm missing something.
I guess whether Zos fine tunes the damage will depend on whether backlash does too much damage on average in all the situations they deem relevant (which might involve duels, or not).
The argument is the damage stores way too fast, leading to scenarios where you only apply 6 light attacks and can nearly reach max tooltip. I think the damage is entirely fine. It's just the build up is way too fast and doesn't require a templar to put in any real effort.
So for the sake of conversation here, what would be a good compromise to stop the damage store from being applied too quickly? Reduction of how much damage is stored came to mind, but I really have a hard time playing Templar so this is more in the sake of "what can be done" and try to get a feedback train going. It's more than just you talking about this, some in my guilds have even referenced this thread directly.
I've asked quite a few templar mains and they suggested somewhere around 30-35% damage stored. The battle spirit damage mitigation can also be reverted as well, giving templars extra damage output to build up backlash faster. One of them even suggested that backlash can be blocked, but deals AoE damage to put it in line with delayed bursts like blastbones and shalks.
Personally, I think the suggestion of backlash being blockable but dealing AoE damage with the current 50% damage copy is a good solution. Someone in this thread asked me to 1vX on stamplar to understand their struggles, and I did right after I got temp banned. Survivability wasn't an issue, but the issue was getting backlash to build up when you are fighting multiple opponents. Obviously, blastbones and shalks are much better than backlash in this scenario, but that's why I think making backlash blockable while also dealing AoE dmg is a good change. You can essentially replicate blastbone's AoE dmg if you apply it on 2 players and store enough damage to proc them at the same time.
So templars mains supposedly asked the skill to get a massive nerf in damage, because they thought it was too strong.
And for it to be subject to major evasion when the damage tooltip is already less than bb, shalks, all the damage needed to store it can be avoided one way or another, and the effect is cleansable?
I highly doubt that. Why don't they come on the forums and suggest it themselves then. Let's see how they can defend their position or not on the matter. I can bet that either they don't exist or cannot do so.8 -
Ippokrates✭✭✭✭✭ResidentContrarian wrote: »Pepegrillos wrote: »So, what is the argument?
That backlash can do too much damage in some situations?
That part of the counterplay to it is not available to every class (unless they slot the variant in the pvp skill line)?
I'm not sure if I'm missing something.
I guess whether Zos fine tunes the damage will depend on whether backlash does too much damage on average in all the situations they deem relevant (which might involve duels, or not).
The argument is the damage stores way too fast, leading to scenarios where you only apply 6 light attacks and can nearly reach max tooltip. I think the damage is entirely fine. It's just the build up is way too fast and doesn't require a templar to put in any real effort.
So for the sake of conversation here, what would be a good compromise to stop the damage store from being applied too quickly? Reduction of how much damage is stored came to mind, but I really have a hard time playing Templar so this is more in the sake of "what can be done" and try to get a feedback train going. It's more than just you talking about this, some in my guilds have even referenced this thread directly.
I've asked quite a few templar mains and they suggested somewhere around 30-35% damage stored. The battle spirit damage mitigation can also be reverted as well, giving templars extra damage output to build up backlash faster. One of them even suggested that backlash can be blocked, but deals AoE damage to put it in line with delayed bursts like blastbones and shalks.
Personally, I think the suggestion of backlash being blockable but dealing AoE damage with the current 50% damage copy is a good solution. Someone in this thread asked me to 1vX on stamplar to understand their struggles, and I did right after I got temp banned. Survivability wasn't an issue, but the issue was getting backlash to build up when you are fighting multiple opponents. Obviously, blastbones and shalks are much better than backlash in this scenario, but that's why I think making backlash blockable while also dealing AoE dmg is a good change. You can essentially replicate blastbone's AoE dmg if you apply it on 2 players and store enough damage to proc them at the same time.
So templars mains supposedly asked the skill to get a massive nerf in damage, because they thought it was too strong.
And for it to be subject to major evasion when the damage tooltip is already less than bb, shalks, all the damage needed to store it can be avoided one way or another, and the effect is cleansable?
I highly doubt that. Why don't they come on the forums and suggest it themselves then. Let's see how they can defend their position or not on the matter. I can bet that either they don't exist or cannot do so.
As a stamplar main I can tell that this change was great. Why?
1. It helped me to tackle solo content, because it is far easier to cummulate dmg and avoid boss attacks through roll or blocking - for example in Cauldron final fight.
2. Give a templar so much needed initiative in pvp. We do not need to charge like morons and jab to make required amout of dmg or wait for a blasty or bugs to open a fight - we could apply power of the light and see how enemy is forced to counter it with purge, giving us time to take a good position, make two attacks and withdraw if not succesfull.
3. It opens a lot of possibilities in making builds, because Templar as a class without reasonable dot (spear, vb, solar barrage and offensive cleansing are somewhat lacking) we can experiment with universal skills & sets that give us good dot.Edited by Ippokrates on August 31, 2021 9:17AM1 -
ResidentContrarian✭✭✭✭✭Ippokrates wrote: »ResidentContrarian wrote: »Pepegrillos wrote: »So, what is the argument?
That backlash can do too much damage in some situations?
That part of the counterplay to it is not available to every class (unless they slot the variant in the pvp skill line)?
I'm not sure if I'm missing something.
I guess whether Zos fine tunes the damage will depend on whether backlash does too much damage on average in all the situations they deem relevant (which might involve duels, or not).
The argument is the damage stores way too fast, leading to scenarios where you only apply 6 light attacks and can nearly reach max tooltip. I think the damage is entirely fine. It's just the build up is way too fast and doesn't require a templar to put in any real effort.
So for the sake of conversation here, what would be a good compromise to stop the damage store from being applied too quickly? Reduction of how much damage is stored came to mind, but I really have a hard time playing Templar so this is more in the sake of "what can be done" and try to get a feedback train going. It's more than just you talking about this, some in my guilds have even referenced this thread directly.
I've asked quite a few templar mains and they suggested somewhere around 30-35% damage stored. The battle spirit damage mitigation can also be reverted as well, giving templars extra damage output to build up backlash faster. One of them even suggested that backlash can be blocked, but deals AoE damage to put it in line with delayed bursts like blastbones and shalks.
Personally, I think the suggestion of backlash being blockable but dealing AoE damage with the current 50% damage copy is a good solution. Someone in this thread asked me to 1vX on stamplar to understand their struggles, and I did right after I got temp banned. Survivability wasn't an issue, but the issue was getting backlash to build up when you are fighting multiple opponents. Obviously, blastbones and shalks are much better than backlash in this scenario, but that's why I think making backlash blockable while also dealing AoE dmg is a good change. You can essentially replicate blastbone's AoE dmg if you apply it on 2 players and store enough damage to proc them at the same time.
So templars mains supposedly asked the skill to get a massive nerf in damage, because they thought it was too strong.
And for it to be subject to major evasion when the damage tooltip is already less than bb, shalks, all the damage needed to store it can be avoided one way or another, and the effect is cleansable?
I highly doubt that. Why don't they come on the forums and suggest it themselves then. Let's see how they can defend their position or not on the matter. I can bet that either they don't exist or cannot do so.
As a stamplar main I can tell that this change was great. Why?
1. It helped me to tackle solo content, because it is far easier to cummulate dmg and avoid boss attacks through roll or blocking - for example in Cauldron final fight.
2. Give a templar so much need initiative in pvp. We do not need to charge like morons and jab to make required amout of dmg or wait for a blasty or bugs to open a fight - we could apply power of the light and see how enemy is forced to counter it with purge, giving us time to take a good position, make two attacks and withdraw if not succesfull.
3. It opens a lot of possibilities in making builds, because Templar as a class without reasonable dot (spear, vb, solar barrage and offensive cleansing are somewhat lacking) we can experiment with universal skills & sets that give us good dot.
Not sure what you are trying to get at here, because:
1. PvE bosses don't usually block and roll damage, so that is not applicable to a PvP perspective
2. Applying PotL or Purifying Light doesn't force anyone to cleanse -- they choose to cleanse or not. On my mag DK, I do not run any cleanse and I can tell you that light makes absolutely no difference in outcome. The reason being because once you put the light on, it's a sign that either you will attack before it's over OR you are trying to enter defense and stall for time.
It's up to me to analyze your behavior patterns and determine the correct course of action, the default action when someone uses light is to simply dodge after a short time when they have applied it. Almost every templar attempts to close the distance and they get punished for doing so.
Applying a snare around you, which everyone has access to in caltrops, prevents any real offensive action from a templar -- at least from jabs, their most reliable way to build burst if they enter melee range, if not, nearly every skill is dodgeable except for one and the roll dodge window is still wide enough to allow dodging after roll completed and gapclosing.
In real practice, using light is really disadvantageous for a templar precisely because it puts your enemy on alert, but again, how much of an advantage or disadvantage it is not will depend on who you match with and what they have on their bars + experience.
In that sense, it is no different from any other burst skill in the game or class defining skill like streak, cloak, bb, shalks, merciless, artic blast, ... - all skills that require you to predict what the person is attempting and to either take the risk to go for the kill or not take the risk. That is the essence of the game's PvP and exactly why I don't and won't see the skill as overpowered in its current state. It literally is no different from any other skill to me not only in theory, but in practice as well.
3. Everyone has a lot of possibilities when making a build, the only problem is that it's up to them to pull it off in PvP. There is no class that is really pigeonholed into a role or specific build, and the choices you make ultimately determine your effectiveness in certain scenarios.
Lots of sets appear to be trash at first, but some sets actually are quite powerful on the right builds like Hist Whisperer. No one would believe how strong that set is until they experience a player using it in the right build because it looks like junk on paper - just as many alternate builds that aren't META do.1 -
Sephyr✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭So for the sake of conversation here, what would be a good compromise to stop the damage store from being applied too quickly? Reduction of how much damage is stored came to mind, but I really have a hard time playing Templar so this is more in the sake of "what can be done" and try to get a feedback train going. It's more than just you talking about this, some in my guilds have even referenced this thread directly.
I've asked quite a few templar mains and they suggested somewhere around 30-35% damage stored. The battle spirit damage mitigation can also be reverted as well, giving templars extra damage output to build up backlash faster. One of them even suggested that backlash can be blocked, but deals AoE damage to put it in line with delayed bursts like blastbones and shalks.
Personally, I think the suggestion of backlash being blockable but dealing AoE damage with the current 50% damage copy is a good solution. Someone in this thread asked me to 1vX on stamplar to understand their struggles, and I did right after I got temp banned. Survivability wasn't an issue, but the issue was getting backlash to build up when you are fighting multiple opponents. Obviously, blastbones and shalks are much better than backlash in this scenario, but that's why I think making backlash blockable while also dealing AoE dmg is a good change. You can essentially replicate blastbone's AoE dmg if you apply it on 2 players and store enough damage to proc them at the same time.
The block mechanic does sound intriguing, reduced damage from the block itself, but still able to perform as intended with a bit of a twist. Kind of reminds me of stuff Wrobel would throw at us.
As I stated, I suck at playing a templar (Magcro and NB are what I mostly main, followed by sorc). Backlash is something lately that's been getting me into more pickles than usual so I've been working on trying to figure out ways around it. So far Elusive Mist on my gankblade was the best way I could null most of the damage along with LoSing with my shade and then back into cloak, but it still packs a punch. I'm hoping they're recording data at least, surely they've seen the thread. Honestly I thought I'd ask you on how or what you felt was needed because that tournie had pretty much some of the best of the best PvPers in there and I'm always lookin' to pick y'all's brains so I can learn more.
So seriously, thank you for humoring me. Puts a few things into perspective.
And welcome back!
0 -
Ippokrates✭✭✭✭✭ResidentContrarian wrote: »Ippokrates wrote: »ResidentContrarian wrote: »Pepegrillos wrote: »So, what is the argument?
That backlash can do too much damage in some situations?
That part of the counterplay to it is not available to every class (unless they slot the variant in the pvp skill line)?
I'm not sure if I'm missing something.
I guess whether Zos fine tunes the damage will depend on whether backlash does too much damage on average in all the situations they deem relevant (which might involve duels, or not).
The argument is the damage stores way too fast, leading to scenarios where you only apply 6 light attacks and can nearly reach max tooltip. I think the damage is entirely fine. It's just the build up is way too fast and doesn't require a templar to put in any real effort.
So for the sake of conversation here, what would be a good compromise to stop the damage store from being applied too quickly? Reduction of how much damage is stored came to mind, but I really have a hard time playing Templar so this is more in the sake of "what can be done" and try to get a feedback train going. It's more than just you talking about this, some in my guilds have even referenced this thread directly.
I've asked quite a few templar mains and they suggested somewhere around 30-35% damage stored. The battle spirit damage mitigation can also be reverted as well, giving templars extra damage output to build up backlash faster. One of them even suggested that backlash can be blocked, but deals AoE damage to put it in line with delayed bursts like blastbones and shalks.
Personally, I think the suggestion of backlash being blockable but dealing AoE damage with the current 50% damage copy is a good solution. Someone in this thread asked me to 1vX on stamplar to understand their struggles, and I did right after I got temp banned. Survivability wasn't an issue, but the issue was getting backlash to build up when you are fighting multiple opponents. Obviously, blastbones and shalks are much better than backlash in this scenario, but that's why I think making backlash blockable while also dealing AoE dmg is a good change. You can essentially replicate blastbone's AoE dmg if you apply it on 2 players and store enough damage to proc them at the same time.
So templars mains supposedly asked the skill to get a massive nerf in damage, because they thought it was too strong.
And for it to be subject to major evasion when the damage tooltip is already less than bb, shalks, all the damage needed to store it can be avoided one way or another, and the effect is cleansable?
I highly doubt that. Why don't they come on the forums and suggest it themselves then. Let's see how they can defend their position or not on the matter. I can bet that either they don't exist or cannot do so.
As a stamplar main I can tell that this change was great. Why?
1. It helped me to tackle solo content, because it is far easier to cummulate dmg and avoid boss attacks through roll or blocking - for example in Cauldron final fight.
2. Give a templar so much need initiative in pvp. We do not need to charge like morons and jab to make required amout of dmg or wait for a blasty or bugs to open a fight - we could apply power of the light and see how enemy is forced to counter it with purge, giving us time to take a good position, make two attacks and withdraw if not succesfull.
3. It opens a lot of possibilities in making builds, because Templar as a class without reasonable dot (spear, vb, solar barrage and offensive cleansing are somewhat lacking) we can experiment with universal skills & sets that give us good dot.
Not sure what you are trying to get at here, because:
1. PvE bosses don't usually block and roll damage, so that is not applicable to a PvP perspective
2. Applying PotL or Purifying Light doesn't force anyone to cleanse -- they choose to cleanse or not. On my mag DK, I do not run any cleanse and I can tell you that light makes absolutely no difference in outcome. The reason being because once you put the light on, it's a sign that either you will attack before it's over OR you are trying to enter defense and stall for time.
It's up to me to analyze your behavior patterns and determine the correct course of action, the default action when someone uses light is to simply dodge after a short time when they have applied it. Almost every templar attempts to close the distance and they get punished for doing so.
Applying a snare around you, which everyone has access to in caltrops, prevents any real offensive action from a templar -- at least from jabs, their most reliable way to build burst if they enter melee range, if not, nearly every skill is dodgeable except for one and the roll dodge window is still wide enough to allow dodging after roll completed and gapclosing.
In real practice, using light is really disadvantageous for a templar precisely because it puts your enemy on alert, but again, how much of an advantage or disadvantage it is not will depend on who you match with and what they have on their bars + experience.
In that sense, it is no different from any other burst skill in the game or class defining skill like streak, cloak, bb, shalks, merciless, artic blast, ... - all skills that require you to predict what the person is attempting and to either take the risk to go for the kill or not take the risk. That is the essence of the game's PvP and exactly why I don't and won't see the skill as overpowered in its current state. It literally is no different from any other skill to me not only in theory, but in practice as well.
3. Everyone has a lot of possibilities when making a build, the only problem is that it's up to them to pull it off in PvP. There is no class that is really pigeonholed into a role or specific build, and the choices you make ultimately determine your effectiveness in certain scenarios.
Lots of sets appear to be trash at first, but some sets actually are quite powerful on the right builds like Hist Whisperer. No one would believe how strong that set is until they experience a player using it in the right build because it looks like junk on paper - just as many alternate builds that aren't META do.
1. No, player is rolling and blocking massive hits of boss, not the way around.
2. Exactly, some would cleanse, some would not. Even before this patch that how things were in Cyro. PvP should be game of wits with plenty of options, not the same cheesy builds and combos. And yeah, it put enemy on alert but usually you can see that Templar is going for you. Now imagine that many times I have seen reapers mark... That what some NB do before strike
3. Sure, you can see it in IC. People are getting crazy with proc sets. And that is fine. The more options, the better gameplay.0 -
MadeInVN✭✭✭✭ResidentContrarian wrote: »Pepegrillos wrote: »So, what is the argument?
That backlash can do too much damage in some situations?
That part of the counterplay to it is not available to every class (unless they slot the variant in the pvp skill line)?
I'm not sure if I'm missing something.
I guess whether Zos fine tunes the damage will depend on whether backlash does too much damage on average in all the situations they deem relevant (which might involve duels, or not).
The argument is the damage stores way too fast, leading to scenarios where you only apply 6 light attacks and can nearly reach max tooltip. I think the damage is entirely fine. It's just the build up is way too fast and doesn't require a templar to put in any real effort.
So for the sake of conversation here, what would be a good compromise to stop the damage store from being applied too quickly? Reduction of how much damage is stored came to mind, but I really have a hard time playing Templar so this is more in the sake of "what can be done" and try to get a feedback train going. It's more than just you talking about this, some in my guilds have even referenced this thread directly.
I've asked quite a few templar mains and they suggested somewhere around 30-35% damage stored. The battle spirit damage mitigation can also be reverted as well, giving templars extra damage output to build up backlash faster. One of them even suggested that backlash can be blocked, but deals AoE damage to put it in line with delayed bursts like blastbones and shalks.
Personally, I think the suggestion of backlash being blockable but dealing AoE damage with the current 50% damage copy is a good solution. Someone in this thread asked me to 1vX on stamplar to understand their struggles, and I did right after I got temp banned. Survivability wasn't an issue, but the issue was getting backlash to build up when you are fighting multiple opponents. Obviously, blastbones and shalks are much better than backlash in this scenario, but that's why I think making backlash blockable while also dealing AoE dmg is a good change. You can essentially replicate blastbone's AoE dmg if you apply it on 2 players and store enough damage to proc them at the same time.
So templars mains supposedly asked the skill to get a massive nerf in damage, because they thought it was too strong.
And for it to be subject to major evasion when the damage tooltip is already less than bb, shalks, all the damage needed to store it can be avoided one way or another, and the effect is cleansable?
I highly doubt that. Why don't they come on the forums and suggest it themselves then. Let's see how they can defend their position or not on the matter. I can bet that either they don't exist or cannot do so.
The damage copied is still 50%, so you will still build it up fast like all the evidence I’ve posted in this thread.
Essentially, I want it to work like haunting curse where it deals single target dmg on the one you cast, and aoe dmg on people around the target. It would be much better than if it just did single target damage, as you can now cleave groups with this ability.
Templar mains that suggested these to me don’t have a forums account, nor do they bother to. I don’t think you realize that arguing on the forums is a complete waste of time [snip]
[edited for bashing]Edited by ZOS_Icy on August 30, 2021 11:04AM2 -
ResidentContrarian✭✭✭✭✭
Templar mains that suggested these to me don’t have a forums account, nor do they bother to. I don’t think you realize that arguing on the forums is a complete waste of time [snip]
Then they aren't relevant. What they think or believe doesn't matter if they aren't willing to defend their position or explain it.
[edited to remove quote]Edited by ZOS_Icy on August 30, 2021 11:05AM2 -
Alchimiste1✭✭✭✭✭
✭itscompton wrote: »itscompton wrote: »gariondavey wrote: »gariondavey wrote: »So since everyone keeps telling me to “do this do that”, I’ll say this again:
It’s pointless to tell me those because I already do them.
It’s like telling someone who’s played football for years how to throw a football… You aren’t actually discussing the problem I’m bringing up, which is backlash. You are just telling me to do this or do that.
I would prefer people actually tell me why they think it is objectively a fine ability after the buff. That way we can get a more meaningful discussion.
Lmao. You don't, otherwise your recap would show massive amounts of healing over the 6 seconds.
I don't know what else to say here. The ability is fine. If you hate this I can't imagine how you handle a good magsorc, stamden, or necro. Those classes delayed bursts are way better. Lol.
Dude seriously lol.. It's like the point completely went over your head. Why would I show a screenshot of healing and damage when I'm trying to bring up a point about how easy it is to stack backlash?. Of course I healed through those tiny damage. But THAT IS NOT THE POINT lol. The point is again, how easy it is to store copied damage .
Your entire argument is based around whether I actually healed through it or not. You didn't even understand my argument. Instead you're just telling me what I might have done wrong without even knowing why I only included a screenshot with damage taken. Seriously dude please read my argument carefully before making comments like these.
I've fought a lot of good magsorcs stamdens and stamcros. They aren't a problem for me, and you can ask @Pelican or many players who duel in stormhaven. I don't need to explain to you about that lmao
I've read your argument. You stand there and get hit and do nothing.
If you think this is an issue when blastbones and other delayed burst abilities are superior, mathematically, I have no more words for you.
Best wishes.
I stood there to demonstrate how easy it is to store copied damage. Why is it so hard to understand? Like why would showing you that I healed through their damage mean anything? It doesn't because at the end of the proc, I would still eat a 9k proc even if I already healed through their damage build up.
You didn't understand my argument at all, instead you keep telling me I didn't heal. It doesn't freaking matter lol... Even if you healed through the 18k damage, you would still eat a 9k proc afterwards. That's the point I'm trying to make. The damage builds up too fast. Is it clear?
That right there was your mistake. You're trying to demonstrate how easy it is to store copied damage, but you base your arguement in a non-competitive encounter where you don't fight back, attempt to mitigate or heal. In other words a set of data that is non applicable to what it will be like to play with the ability in real game conditions.
Stand in one spot and let shalks hit you twice while the Warden supplements then with LA's and that will seem super broken too.
I already demonstrated a video of a real fight. Maybe you should check it out before actually making a comment?https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5gvWM8PXmGA
Ok I watched the whole thing now and while you don't stand in one spot your performance from a competitive standpoint was far from optimal. There were several times that your minimal attacks took him down to 50% health and probably could have finished him by applying a bit of pressure instead of streaking away and waiting for him to topple charge you again.
The hardest I saw it hit was 13.6K at the 20 second mark. However for context at 8 seconds you have him in well within execute range and plenty of stam yet choose to cast a vigor and start dancing around when he turtles and starts block casting heals. He drops block at 10 seconds and from then until he applies backlash at 14 seconds you light attack him twice. When he applies PL at 14 seconds your response is to move into him (but not streak even though he's off cc cooldown) to put you in range of his ultimate and solar barrage, you then attempt to back away, roll dodge, and finally streak at 18 seconds so your actually out of his dots, you then eat a ranged LA for 3279 before the BL hits. During that whole six second window your offensive response is to LA him one time.
Definitely not a real world scenario and because of that it doesn't show that it's easy to build up a PL backlash in an actual fight, it shows it's easy to build a PL backlash against someone that stays in range and does nothing but streak and dodgeroll for 2 minutes while making no reasonable attempt to sustain pressure on the Temp in return.
And that there is the true crux and where my original response to this thread comes back in to play. You've got 36K health stacked, barely attack him and are still able to get him to less than 30% health almost instantly (w/o using your ready and waiting dawnbreaker in the combo) at the 8 second mark. To me that means you've got him set up as a Max damage full glass cannon to do the absolute most damage possible with backlash to help you make your point.
If I was on PC I'd happily duel that build with my MagSorc, but alas I'm on PS.
Ok I read your whole comment and while you wrote a lot , from a competitive standpoint your analysis was for from optimal. He actual did go for the execute at 8 seconds, I'm sorry you missed the bar swap ani cancel, it just wasnt enough because the magplar healed through it. The magplar dropped block at 10 seconds because he now had cc immunity and MadeINVN didn't , he was now in a good position to go offensive which is likely why MadeInVN vigored. Actually looking at it again thats exactly what happened, the magplar put purifying light and ulted and went offensive. Telling the stamsorc to go offensive while hes being hit with crescent dots . . . you're not going to out pressure a magplar on that type of stamsorc build.
I hope I shed some light into the situation.2 -
MadeInVN✭✭✭✭ResidentContrarian wrote: »
Templar mains that suggested these to me don’t have a forums account, nor do they bother to. I don’t think you realize that arguing on the forums is a complete waste of time [snip]
Then they aren't relevant. What they think or believe doesn't matter if they aren't willing to defend their position or explain it.
Telling some of the best templars “irrelevant” just because they don’t have a forums account is a bit too much, don’t you think?
Plenty of top tier templars on PC NA don’t have forum accounts. Some of them were also permanently banned for baiting, just like how I got temporarily banned. They are on discord though, so if you want to argue against them, I can always link the discords to you.
When you get on the forums and argue, you are arguing against players of different skill level. Some are completely new to the class. Some have played it for a moderate amount of time, enough to understand the class at a basic level. Some have been playing for a long time and excel at all aspects of the game on their class. When you pitch the top tier player against the ones with less experience, there will always be conflict in arguments. They just don’t share the same experience. But people don’t give up their opinions that easily, so arguing on the forums is kind of pointless. Real examples are much better, that’s why I show evidence through videos and screenshots, and ask people who share their opinion to also include real evidence.
[edited to remove quote]Edited by ZOS_Icy on August 30, 2021 11:07AM1 -
MadeInVN✭✭✭✭Alchimiste1 wrote: »itscompton wrote: »itscompton wrote: »gariondavey wrote: »gariondavey wrote: »So since everyone keeps telling me to “do this do that”, I’ll say this again:
It’s pointless to tell me those because I already do them.
It’s like telling someone who’s played football for years how to throw a football… You aren’t actually discussing the problem I’m bringing up, which is backlash. You are just telling me to do this or do that.
I would prefer people actually tell me why they think it is objectively a fine ability after the buff. That way we can get a more meaningful discussion.
Lmao. You don't, otherwise your recap would show massive amounts of healing over the 6 seconds.
I don't know what else to say here. The ability is fine. If you hate this I can't imagine how you handle a good magsorc, stamden, or necro. Those classes delayed bursts are way better. Lol.
Dude seriously lol.. It's like the point completely went over your head. Why would I show a screenshot of healing and damage when I'm trying to bring up a point about how easy it is to stack backlash?. Of course I healed through those tiny damage. But THAT IS NOT THE POINT lol. The point is again, how easy it is to store copied damage .
Your entire argument is based around whether I actually healed through it or not. You didn't even understand my argument. Instead you're just telling me what I might have done wrong without even knowing why I only included a screenshot with damage taken. Seriously dude please read my argument carefully before making comments like these.
I've fought a lot of good magsorcs stamdens and stamcros. They aren't a problem for me, and you can ask @Pelican or many players who duel in stormhaven. I don't need to explain to you about that lmao
I've read your argument. You stand there and get hit and do nothing.
If you think this is an issue when blastbones and other delayed burst abilities are superior, mathematically, I have no more words for you.
Best wishes.
I stood there to demonstrate how easy it is to store copied damage. Why is it so hard to understand? Like why would showing you that I healed through their damage mean anything? It doesn't because at the end of the proc, I would still eat a 9k proc even if I already healed through their damage build up.
You didn't understand my argument at all, instead you keep telling me I didn't heal. It doesn't freaking matter lol... Even if you healed through the 18k damage, you would still eat a 9k proc afterwards. That's the point I'm trying to make. The damage builds up too fast. Is it clear?
That right there was your mistake. You're trying to demonstrate how easy it is to store copied damage, but you base your arguement in a non-competitive encounter where you don't fight back, attempt to mitigate or heal. In other words a set of data that is non applicable to what it will be like to play with the ability in real game conditions.
Stand in one spot and let shalks hit you twice while the Warden supplements then with LA's and that will seem super broken too.
I already demonstrated a video of a real fight. Maybe you should check it out before actually making a comment?https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5gvWM8PXmGA
Ok I watched the whole thing now and while you don't stand in one spot your performance from a competitive standpoint was far from optimal. There were several times that your minimal attacks took him down to 50% health and probably could have finished him by applying a bit of pressure instead of streaking away and waiting for him to topple charge you again.
The hardest I saw it hit was 13.6K at the 20 second mark. However for context at 8 seconds you have him in well within execute range and plenty of stam yet choose to cast a vigor and start dancing around when he turtles and starts block casting heals. He drops block at 10 seconds and from then until he applies backlash at 14 seconds you light attack him twice. When he applies PL at 14 seconds your response is to move into him (but not streak even though he's off cc cooldown) to put you in range of his ultimate and solar barrage, you then attempt to back away, roll dodge, and finally streak at 18 seconds so your actually out of his dots, you then eat a ranged LA for 3279 before the BL hits. During that whole six second window your offensive response is to LA him one time.
Definitely not a real world scenario and because of that it doesn't show that it's easy to build up a PL backlash in an actual fight, it shows it's easy to build a PL backlash against someone that stays in range and does nothing but streak and dodgeroll for 2 minutes while making no reasonable attempt to sustain pressure on the Temp in return.
And that there is the true crux and where my original response to this thread comes back in to play. You've got 36K health stacked, barely attack him and are still able to get him to less than 30% health almost instantly (w/o using your ready and waiting dawnbreaker in the combo) at the 8 second mark. To me that means you've got him set up as a Max damage full glass cannon to do the absolute most damage possible with backlash to help you make your point.
If I was on PC I'd happily duel that build with my MagSorc, but alas I'm on PS.
Ok I read your whole comment and while you wrote a lot , from a competitive standpoint your analysis was for from optimal. He actual did go for the execute at 8 seconds, I'm sorry you missed the bar swap ani cancel, it just wasnt enough because the magplar healed through it. The magplar dropped block at 10 seconds because he now had cc immunity and MadeINVN didn't , he was now in a good position to go offensive which is likely why MadeInVN vigored. Actually looking at it again thats exactly what happened, the magplar put purifying light and ulted and went offensive. Telling the stamsorc to go offensive while hes being hit with crescent dots . . . you're not going to out pressure a magplar on that type of stamsorc build.
I hope I shed some light into the situation.
Thanks for helping me explain lolitscompton wrote: »itscompton wrote: »gariondavey wrote: »gariondavey wrote: »So since everyone keeps telling me to “do this do that”, I’ll say this again:
It’s pointless to tell me those because I already do them.
It’s like telling someone who’s played football for years how to throw a football… You aren’t actually discussing the problem I’m bringing up, which is backlash. You are just telling me to do this or do that.
I would prefer people actually tell me why they think it is objectively a fine ability after the buff. That way we can get a more meaningful discussion.
Lmao. You don't, otherwise your recap would show massive amounts of healing over the 6 seconds.
I don't know what else to say here. The ability is fine. If you hate this I can't imagine how you handle a good magsorc, stamden, or necro. Those classes delayed bursts are way better. Lol.
Dude seriously lol.. It's like the point completely went over your head. Why would I show a screenshot of healing and damage when I'm trying to bring up a point about how easy it is to stack backlash?. Of course I healed through those tiny damage. But THAT IS NOT THE POINT lol. The point is again, how easy it is to store copied damage .
Your entire argument is based around whether I actually healed through it or not. You didn't even understand my argument. Instead you're just telling me what I might have done wrong without even knowing why I only included a screenshot with damage taken. Seriously dude please read my argument carefully before making comments like these.
I've fought a lot of good magsorcs stamdens and stamcros. They aren't a problem for me, and you can ask @Pelican or many players who duel in stormhaven. I don't need to explain to you about that lmao
I've read your argument. You stand there and get hit and do nothing.
If you think this is an issue when blastbones and other delayed burst abilities are superior, mathematically, I have no more words for you.
Best wishes.
I stood there to demonstrate how easy it is to store copied damage. Why is it so hard to understand? Like why would showing you that I healed through their damage mean anything? It doesn't because at the end of the proc, I would still eat a 9k proc even if I already healed through their damage build up.
You didn't understand my argument at all, instead you keep telling me I didn't heal. It doesn't freaking matter lol... Even if you healed through the 18k damage, you would still eat a 9k proc afterwards. That's the point I'm trying to make. The damage builds up too fast. Is it clear?
That right there was your mistake. You're trying to demonstrate how easy it is to store copied damage, but you base your arguement in a non-competitive encounter where you don't fight back, attempt to mitigate or heal. In other words a set of data that is non applicable to what it will be like to play with the ability in real game conditions.
Stand in one spot and let shalks hit you twice while the Warden supplements then with LA's and that will seem super broken too.
I already demonstrated a video of a real fight. Maybe you should check it out before actually making a comment?https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5gvWM8PXmGA
Ok I watched the whole thing now and while you don't stand in one spot your performance from a competitive standpoint was far from optimal. There were several times that your minimal attacks took him down to 50% health and probably could have finished him by applying a bit of pressure instead of streaking away and waiting for him to topple charge you again.
The hardest I saw it hit was 13.6K at the 20 second mark. However for context at 8 seconds you have him in well within execute range and plenty of stam yet choose to cast a vigor and start dancing around when he turtles and starts block casting heals. He drops block at 10 seconds and from then until he applies backlash at 14 seconds you light attack him twice. When he applies PL at 14 seconds your response is to move into him (but not streak even though he's off cc cooldown) to put you in range of his ultimate and solar barrage, you then attempt to back away, roll dodge, and finally streak at 18 seconds so your actually out of his dots, you then eat a ranged LA for 3279 before the BL hits. During that whole six second window your offensive response is to LA him one time.
Definitely not a real world scenario and because of that it doesn't show that it's easy to build up a PL backlash in an actual fight, it shows it's easy to build a PL backlash against someone that stays in range and does nothing but streak and dodgeroll for 2 minutes while making no reasonable attempt to sustain pressure on the Temp in return.
And that there is the true crux and where my original response to this thread comes back in to play. You've got 36K health stacked, barely attack him and are still able to get him to less than 30% health almost instantly (w/o using your ready and waiting dawnbreaker in the combo) at the 8 second mark. To me that means you've got him set up as a Max damage full glass cannon to do the absolute most damage possible with backlash to help you make your point.
If I was on PC I'd happily duel that build with my MagSorc, but alas I'm on PS.
1) If you missed what happened, I did go for the execute at 0:08 seconds. You probably didn't see it because I animation cancelled it with bar swap. Just one of those "macro hack" techniques you learn for high level gameplay. You also probably didn't see him bar swapping to his back bar and block heal with honor of the dead. It's also through experience that if you fail to kill someone with your first execute, chances are you won't be able to land the 2nd or 3rd one. It's especially true against magplars because of block + hotd heal.
2) He has a lot of heals. He's one of the only magplars that can heal through my full DoT build. The only times when I actually got him low was due to a full dmg burst combo. But unless everything crits, I'm not going to have enough dmg to one shot him through his heals.
3) Applying pressure doesn't work for this particular build. It's a burst build, not a pressure build.
4) The reason I stopped going on the offense to play defense, even when he was below 50% HP is due to the fact that he could easily heal back to full. Going on the offense at that point is futile and dangerous. I already failed to kill him after giving him CC immunity. All he had to do was block cast honor of the dead, cast ultimate, and turn on me. If i tried to pressure him any longer, I would get caught with my pants down and die.itscompton wrote: »Look at 58 seconds to 1:04. You actually go on the offensive and stay right in his face the whole six seconds PL is up, the resulting backlash is 4483.
I went on the offense because I saw a chance at killing him. When I failed to kill him with my combo, I went straight back to defense. That chance doesn't happen a lot, and the longer the fight draws out, the easier he can counter my damage. A burst build's biggest weakness is predictability. After failing to kill with the first combo, your opponent holds block and easily prevents you from doing anything else.Edited by MadeInVN on August 29, 2021 6:16PM0 -
ResidentContrarian✭✭✭✭✭ResidentContrarian wrote: »
Templar mains that suggested these to me don’t have a forums account, nor do they bother to. I don’t think you realize that arguing on the forums is a complete waste of time because at the end of the day zos isnt going to read these lol
Then they aren't relevant. What they think or believe doesn't matter if they aren't willing to defend their position or explain it.
Telling some of the best templars “irrelevant” just because they don’t have a forums account is a bit too much, don’t you think?
Plenty of top tier templars on PC NA don’t have forum accounts. Some of them were also permanently banned for baiting, just like how I got temporarily banned. They are on discord though, so if you want to argue against them, I can always link the discords to you.
[snip]
That said, no defense of a position means it's an inconsequential one. It's inconsequential because their position has (a) no real logical basis, (b) no real defense or numbers behind the argument, and (c) is an incredibly biased viewpoint.
Example?
Let's say light did become AoE. Not only would it suffer from an overall damage reduction and become unslottable for many builds, what would really happen is that it would be a buff for other builds.
That's right, it would be a buff for people that stack more than one templar or only push out AoE pressure, which templar already has plenty of btw, in the first place. And considering one morph actually heals, it would be more OP than what's on live and eventually get nerfed. Add in sets and it will be a completely overtuned change.
Great for the 3 seconds it would be used to cheese in smallscale v. larger groups though, which I am guessing is the goal of those "pros". Literally wanting a change to make the game easier for their playstyle.
Now, you're telling me "pro" templars cannot see something so obvious? That the suggestion would actually be a net buff to specific builds and a complete nerf to the vast majority? Please. As for videos, productions don't count.
[snip]
[edited for baiting]Edited by ZOS_Icy on August 30, 2021 11:15AM3 -
grannas211✭✭✭✭✭
✭I do feel like Magplar needed a boost. But in typical ZOS faction they go overboard. Also expect them to nuke it into the ground next patch. It’s almost like clockwork.1
